Relationship Agreements: A Powerful Way to Deepen Love & Lessen Conflict | Krista & Will Van Derveer

So we all want that sense of easy, stable love, but so often we find ourselves just kind of falling into the same old rut. We assume we know what our partner's thinking. We let small, you know, tensions simmer, and eventually the magic just starts to feel a bit like a chore. My guests today say it doesn't have to be that way. If you're willing to move from what they call an eye-operating system to a we-operating system, Krista and Will Van Der Veer join me to talk about the quote sacred guardrails or agreements that they use to keep their relationship thriving. Will is a psychiatrist and author of the new book Psychotallic Therapy, and Krista is a leadership educator who specializes in how we relate to one another. Together they host the Art of Weep podcast. In this conversation, we're exploring how to craft your own sacred relationship agreements that keep bringing you back to love. How to quote gamble everything for love by servicing the things you're usually too afraid to say. We talk about a somatic couch tool for cooling down high conflict moments using simple biology, and why abundant repair is one of the secrets to feeling closer after a fight than you did before it even started. It's a bit of a masterclass in how to build a partnership that isn't just a private love oasis, but an engine for your greatest work in the world. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The audience is the unique ingredient of question time. But I play for the local brass band. Work in the kind of EV sector. And vice principal at a local school. You never know what the audience are going to say. We love a debate, don't we? It's nice to be able to say something that's really important to me. That is the joy and the jeopardy. It gives me the chance to actually take politicians to account. Bringing power to the people. Let's get our first question. Question time, Thursdays on BBC iPlayer. Ah, nature. 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So my opening curiosity here is, where did this idea of agreements and sort of like relationship driven agreements, especially in the context of personal relationships, what's the origin story for this? When I met Will, I was working for a consulting company and we were actually going into organizations. So it's interesting that you bring this up this way because we were bringing these practices about how to relate together in order to really move forward to the mission and to succeed interpersonally and also in what we're up to together. And before I met Will, I was like, wow, like I really want to take this into my next partnership because this is incredibly supportive for the success of us individually and also as a company at that point. And so when I met Will and we decided what kind of partnership we wanted, we decided to create agreements based upon both of our backgrounds, what really worked and what really didn't work. And also from some of our mentors that we've learned from and create these specific relationship agreements to help us accomplish what we wanted to accomplish in our partnership at the time. And we did meet, you know, when I was mid 40s and Will was late 40s. So it was like a second half of our lives partnership where we had already learned a lot about partnerships and what worked and what didn't work. And just for clarity, we're talking about personal partnership. We're not talking about business partnership here, although it's eventually evolved into that. But this is you two meet, you're later in life, you've had other relationships. There have been things that have gone well and things that haven't gone well, just like everybody out there. And you come together and you're kind of like, all right, how do we gather up what we've learned and set ourselves up optimally? So like that this thing can really work as good as it can work. Is that kind of like land right? Yeah, and we'll even go to our first, the first conversation we had in our first date. It was very personal to us, our personal relationship we wanted, but we both came to the same table, the same table with the same conversation of, we really wanted our next partnership to be of service to the world, not just for our own little private love oasis. And we knew that if we wanted to have that kind of partnership that we would have to really create these agreements, these sacred guardrails of how we would accomplish that together rather than just go day by day and hope that it happens. And we'd both come from relationships that, we're challenging, so we wanted something different. Yeah, all right, Will, it's your first date. You sit down with Krista. How does the idea of actually something like this come up on the first date? I mean, most first dates is like, you're dancing around, you're talking about superficial stuff, you're probably having a drink or two just to loosen up and let go of the nerves and the anxiety. This is a big, deep topic to just get surfaced like right out of the gate. Well, I think it says a lot about who Krista is as a human that we didn't spend a lot of time on surfacing topics. We dove right in and we shut down the restaurant. It was a three and a half or four hour conversation. And it was just incredibly exciting to meet another person who had a very similar vision for what relationships could do. And, you know, as Krista mentioned, you know, we both came from different kinds of experiences in the past. I'd been in a 20 year marriage where the agreements that we had were loosely based on our Buddhist practice, which had advantages and it had limitations to it. I might talk about those maybe in more depth if we get to that. But essentially the desire that I had of having a bigger expression or a bigger impact on the world, I was not able to realize that in the previous relationship I was in. And I knew that I needed a different set of agreements to be able to accomplish that. So we've really practiced these agreements now for how many years now, Krista? We'll be married seven years this year and together nine years. But I don't think you actually had relationship agreements in your last relationship. Is that, are you just wanting to check? We had guidelines based on our Buddhist teacher, which are that, you know, if you're having emotional distress, it's your problem personally. And it's not a great idea. It's definitely frowned upon in Buddhism to bring disturbances to your partner. You go back to the cushion. I don't know if that's true, Jonathan, in the yogic traditions, but the concept sort of is that, at least what I was taught in our Buddhist tradition was, you need to have your own back. You need to take that to the cushion, go meditate more. Your disturbance is not your partner's problem. And there's significant limitations in that perspective. It's really interesting, right? Because you have a lot of times when stuff goes sideways in a relationship, you know, we go to like, what are the teachings that have been handed to us that feel like, you know, what are the guidelines that have come before us that have already established and we'll just lock on to whatever it is that, you know, that are the ones that we know and we'll ride along with it. Oftentimes it's faith-based, it's spiritual-based. Sometimes it's just the family culture that is handed down these traditions. And without fail, there's always some stuff which is like, wow, that is really powerful. It makes so much sense, it lands really well. And there's that stuff that raises your eyebrow a little bit and kind of like, I'm not so sure about that. And then there's the other bucket, which is like, are you kidding me? Yeah, right. You know, and I think we all kind of go there, but oftentimes we don't, the question is being raised in our minds, but we don't actually, we don't act on the question. We just act on the rote side of it because we're like, well, this is what's been, you know, get handed to me. It must work, so let me just follow those rules. Did you have a similar sort of like set of imprints coming into this, Krista? Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, for me, it was like, I learned like you're saying from my family about how to do relationship from our culture, about how to do relationship from the people around me. But after I had lost a partner to a sudden death before I met Will, and we had a beautiful and also challenging relationship, but after he died, I was, you know, after a year and a half of grieving, I was like, do I even really want a partnership again? And I remember the moment exactly where I was, one of those moments where you can't forget it. And I just stopped and I was like, oh, I want that more than anything, but only if it's gonna be extraordinary. And I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know how to get it. I've never seen it, but that's what I'm standing for. And then I proceeded to go through some dating processes with my own self-agreements about how I would show for the dating in order to see if they and I would meet, you know, what I'm, this kind of partnership that I was calling in. So I was definitely coming from creating a different thing that I hadn't seen before. Yeah. Do you remember that moment where sort of, you know, like the switch was flipped? Did something happen or was it just you're walking along? You're like, oh no, I just know. Yeah. I was walking my parents dog. I was sitting for them and I was on the sidewalk and I remember exactly I was looking at this park and it was just like one of those lightning bolts. Nothing happened other than me asking the question of like, do I actually even want this? Do I want partnership? It was so heartbreaking what I went through with his death and it was also such a challenge in the very end of his life and also so beautiful, but I was like, wow, this is a lot of work. And I realized that it had to be extraordinary again to, for me to say yes to this. Yeah. But imagine also and tell me if this is right, that when you lose somebody in that way, the pain is so deep and so enduring that for you to say yes to the possibility of that happening again, like the stars have to align on a completely different level. Does that land? That totally lands because I knew that if I was gonna be in partnership again, it would be risky. I would lose a lot. I would have to love again. I might get heartbroken again, but that was totally worth it. But it was also easier to be in that conviction because if I didn't get too extraordinary, then I was like, ah, I can live without it. No big deal. I can do this myself if that makes sense. Yeah. So the standard for you is just stondingly high. It's like, I want this to happen. I like, I want this to be yes, but for it to be yes, some incredible things need to be in place. Exactly. Yes. Were you coming from a similar place, Will? Well, I had been dreaming and journaling and very carefully detailing the qualities of the partner that I was calling in. And it was interesting because that piece of paper that where I worked that and crossed it out and erased it and rewrote it and designed it was in a workbook that someone had recommended to me that was on my bookshelf. And after Krista and I had been together for a few years, I found that workbook and I opened up to that page and saw that document in there. And it was kind of spooky how clearly she met the description that I was writing for a couple of years before I met Krista. So it sounds a little hokey, but I've come to believe that that energetic calling in is real and that that is something that really matters. And when we set really clear intentions, we're sending out a message that matters. You both come together. You both used a phrase that I think is really interesting and really unusual in what you wanted when you sat down for that first conversation, which is you weren't just looking for something that was going to satisfy you on a personal individual level. You were looking to create a relationship that had a bigger impact, that somehow affected people beyond the two of you. That is stunningly unusual. Do you acknowledge that? I think we were both a little bit in shock on our first date to be coming with that same conversation. It wasn't like one of us influenced the other into that. We both literally came with that conversation. And Will, do you wanna share where you got that inspiration from? Well, another close friend of ours in Boulder, Jason Gattis on his podcast had the wonderful Rimi translator, Andrew Harvey, as a guest a few years ago. And Andrew was talking about how deeply the world needs couples who are committed to changing the world. And in his view, at least as expressed on that episode, was like, this is what the world needs now is people who are committed to this and have each other's backs and who are willing to grow and fall down and raise a head and pick themselves up and pick each other up. And so I was on fire with that notion for a few weeks before our date started. And so that was where I got fired up about it. So it's like you both bring this thing to it because most people start a relationship. They're like, okay, so maybe they make the list that you described. Well, I know somebody literally had made a list with over a hundred things that had to be on the list the part of that they were looking for. And okay, so maybe that's overkill, but a lot of people do sit down and say, like, I need this, I need that, I need this, right? But generally those lists, they're about like, what I want for my life about how I want to feel in my relationship, in my world, like it's me, me, me, me, me, me. And look, there's nothing wrong with that. We all, we have needs and we have desires and we want to get them met, right? On a very personal level. And to go beyond that and say, and like not bud, but and, I also want this union to be an engine for something bigger. It's just so highly unusual. Krista, like on your side, like where did that come from? Well, I can say that we talk about it now. I can say where it came from, but now we talk about it is moving from the I, oh, I operating system to the we, oh, S the we operating system. And it's actually really informed our partnership and how we make decisions and a lot of our agreements. But I think that for me, I'm kind of tired. And before I met Will, it was tired of the knowing that there's only a certain amount of impact that I personally as one human being can have in the world. And I've always tended to be very relationally oriented, really caring for the we of us. And potentially it comes from maybe something that I was wanting more in my life earlier on is to really be attuned to and tracked. And I wanted to attune to others and track others. But there's always just kind of a knowing that we can do more than I can, which is one of our mottoes that we have in our relationship. And it came very clear. And it kind of came to a head that first date because I hadn't met another human being, kind of like what you're saying, Jonathan, who was coming with the same conversation. And was a potential partner for me. And we're closing the restaurant down. So I think it really even stuck even more in that moment of we can do more than I can. So the my curiosity is how do you move from there to, okay, so we're getting serious with each other. You know, like we're forming this partnership. We need a set of agreements to guide it. Because again, this is a big wild leap that nobody else takes. There may be implicit agreements, right? Like the things that you're kind of like, yes, we kind of like agree on this saying, yes, nearly agree. We've kind of shared this type of value, right? But it's so unusual for somebody to sit down and say, okay, so here's the deal. We need to literally set up like written, clearly worded by laws for this relationship. Were you both equally excited about this? Was one person like hesitant? Like, I think here's a deeper question I'm asking. Especially in the early days of relationship, there's a magic to it, right? There's like this tingling part of the relationship. There's like, oh, this is juicy. This is fun. I don't want to lose this. And I would imagine that there, we've got a lot of people joining us who they're like, if you tell them, okay, so the next step here is to sit down and negotiate these like tightly worded agreements to like, ooh. But doesn't that like kill the magic and everything? It might be counterintuitive to the listener, but it actually has the opposite effect of keeping us very much alive and on our toes with each other. One example is we've had to always see each other with fresh eyes every day. And if you take that at a face value, maybe the first impression might be like, oh, that's beautiful and that's sweet. But when you start looking at it day after day over years, how easy it is to slip into automating your partner. Just like you automate the room that you walk into when you come home, you kind of know where the couch is, you know, where the chair is, you know, where you throw your keys every day when you come in. So if anything, I feel like it keeps the juices really fresh and keeps the passion lit at a high level because there's so much presence that's required to pull it off to live by these agreements every day. So that's my thought on it. Krista, where do you land? Yeah, I love your question because some people are like, agreements that just sounds like horrible. Like we'll get stuck in some sort of thing that we don't want to be in. And yeah, I agree with Will where it's like, for me, the agreements require me to grow personally. And I'm, both of us, fortunately, which I think makes this work, is that we're high value, we put a high value on growth. And so like another example is to assume positive intent. Now this is becoming more popular out in the world that we assume positive intent, but when we're in a rupture, our conflict, that's where the real growth becomes available is like, oh, I'm not actually assuming positive intent right now. And we can remind it, we gently remind each other because we already agreed upon it. And the problem with implicit agreements, because he brought that up, Jonathan, is that when things get hard and we didn't actually explicitly agree to it, then those things go out the window. When we're in high conflict, high challenge, like I never agreed to that, or we can go there. And for me, these keep me growing because I know that they serve me, they serve will, and they serve the we of us, the bigger entity that includes us, but also transcends us. And so for me, it becomes a really fun experience. And it's also not about beating each other up with the agreements when we fall down. It's about calling each other in and supporting each other. And they're living agreements too, so we can change them whenever they're not actually correct or we have actually a misunderstanding about them or they're ready to be evolved into something else. So that makes sense to me. What if somebody's listening to this or watching and the thing themselves, okay, cool, cool, cool. Like you two are really into growth, good for you. All right, you go grow. You do the personal development thing, you invest in all this stuff, you do the coaching and the therapy, and that's, by the way, like, you know, this has been both of your worlds, like Krista, you've been a coach at the highest level for years and an executive and will you've been a psychiatrist? And like, so like you're both just fiercely growth oriented, but somebody's joining us and like, look, what I want from my relationship, I just want it to be easy. I want it to be stable. I don't need to be constantly evolving and growing and changing. I just want a partner and a relationship that just feels good and peaceful for as, you know, as much as it can, as often as it can, and as long as it can. What do you say to that person in the context of inviting them to still consider getting really detailed about relationship agreements? Well, I think that there are differences in individuals about how much they want to grow or how hard they want to work on themselves in one lifetime. And I'm completely okay with that. I don't have judgment about that. I mean, this goes to kind of the beginning of the journey for me and Krista in when we work with couples is asking the question, what's the couple up to? Like, what are they here together in this relationship to do together? Maybe it's being comfortable. Maybe it's raising kids. Maybe it's starting a business together. It could be anything. And then the agreements for that particular couple need to support what they're up to together. So it's really about matching up agreements that support the fulfillment that that couple wants to have as opposed to, hey, everybody should be on like the fastest rocket ship of growth there is. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. On BBC iPlayer, the audience is the unique ingredient of question time. I play for the local brass band. Work in the kind of EV sector. I'm the vice principal at a local school. You never know what the audience are going to say. We love a debate, don't we? It's nice to be able to say something that's really important to me. That is the joy and the jeopardy. It gives me the chance to actually take politicians to account. Let's get our first question. Question time, Thursdays on BBC iPlayer. 1983 election, she's won a landslide second time. Police have been deployed to disperse crowds as the poll tax riots escalate. Credit crunches continuing to spread from the USA. Britain has left the European Union. I mean, this goes on. Boris, Liz, Rishi. We've helped Britain invest through 45 years of change. That's why we're the UK's number one investment and savings platform trusted by two million people. Hargreaves lands down, helping Britain invest for it all. Investment returns vary for claim verification. Visit hl.co.uk. Ah, nature. Always calling it just the right time. When life plays dirty, water wipes. Now two times stronger and even softer. Ready for whatever happens back there. Available online and in store. Water wipes, cleans, cares and protects sensitive skin. Two times stronger material than previous water wipes. It sounds like it's kind of like what comes first then is a conversation that says something like, what is the shared vision for our relationship? Like what actually, what matters to both of us about where, what we exalt and where we're going. Does that make sense, Krista? Totally, that's actually, we talk about that a lot. Is that that is the first conversation. And then I think the next, there's maybe sub question to that is who do we need to be or become in order to fulfill that? And then that's how we start to decide what are the relationship agreements? And also like in the question of the purpose of the partnership, it's like why specifically you and me, not just partnership in general. Like why am I interested in being with you here? And so it really helps us orient towards what agreements would be supportive. Krista, you said something I wanna reflect on also, which is this notion of agreements, when everything's going fine, you're like, you just kind of in cruise control with your partner. Maybe the agreements aren't like super, they don't come in on a really regular basis. But it sounds like where these become really important is where there's conflict, where there's challenge, where there's this risk of things going off the rails. Is that right? Yes, and I would say one of our agreements, again, some of these are adapted by people that we admire like Stan Tatkin in this case, is to have abundant repair when there is misunderstanding or conflict or some sort of rupture. And that I think has been the best agreement for us to stay really connected. And abundant repair isn't just like, okay, we're good. Like I get what happened for you, this is what happened for me, we're good. It's really working something out until we get, until I get to, this is my barometer, is that my body wants to be closer to Will's body. Then I know that whatever we encountered is actually making us stronger, more aligned, more on the same page. And that conflict can become a opportunity for deeper connection rather than there's being, there's something wrong for us. And what I know for myself, if I'm not addressing rubs or tensions, conflict with Will, then I start to go back into the iOS, the eye operating system where I'm just thinking about myself, I'm just thinking about my needs, forget him. I'm disconnecting from him in some form. But when we really practice our abundant repair, then we're really prioritizing the we of us, the relationship over what I would do on my own if I didn't stay committed to the connection. So Will, and Chris's time if we get in this right, like the signal for you that you've practiced this repair on a level where it's actually becoming effective as you wanna feel, you're returning to this thing of like wanting to actually feel physical closeness to Will again. Will, what's your signal? I can tell when there's even just a little bit of tension left in my body that we're not done with the repair. Gosh, we could talk for a long time about repair, but there's so much to being courageous enough to keep going until you're finished with the repair. I think that's one of the things that I've learned the most in this relationship with Krista is that what I thought was repair in the past prior to Krista was not a complete repair, almost, you know, almost ever. It's sort of like, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and apology accepted and then move on. But there's no emotional completion to that. It's more of an intellectual exchange, a transaction. Like, okay, I signed the document and submitted it and now we're good. But the animal body knows when security is reestablished inside of the partnership, you know, through letting go of the tension. And I think Krista described it well of like wanting to move closer to each other physically. It's so interesting to me also that you both referenced this somatic signal rather than say cognitively of like, all right, I think we're there. You know, like, I think we've talked about all the things that we needed to talk about. I think we've resolved like the major issues. You're both like, no, no, no, no, like that's not, like we don't stop working on this until both of our bodies are telling us like we're good. Yeah, I mean, for me, if I'm just in the cognitive conversation, then I'm probably missing something. Because I might be like, okay, I think we're there. Like, but how would I really know that we're there? And if I, if I'm not wanting to feel closer to Will, then like, crap, I have to look deeper. Cause we have our old strategies of staying safe and like not getting into conflict with each other. So I tend to mine or tend, I tend to dissociate from the negative impact that I've experienced so that I don't have to actually address it. But I think Will, like what you're saying is somehow my body has more intelligence around that. So I have to go investigate a little bit deeper. And we do that often. We're like, okay, are we fully repaired? One of us be like, I don't think so. So we have to kind of investigate more. It's not always super clear about what needs to be attended to. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to me also, because my, my signals tend to be really embodied too. What, you know, whether it's conflict or excitement, basically everything, my tell us how do I feel? Like even as a creator, as like a maker, as a writer, you know, like when I'm working on something, I'm writing, I'm writing, right? I'm like, oh yeah, it's kind of like, it's interesting, it's good. And then I'll write a sentence and I'll shake. And I'll be like, oh hell, like that's, if I can do that once more in the next decade, like my life will be good. You know, like there's a really physical embodied thing that hits me when I just know something's not just off, but also really on, like really connected, really right. But here's my question. So many of us, and I'm gonna get back to it because I really want to get into the details of like, how do we actually make these agreements? But I think this is really important because this is how do we know that we're actually sort of like honoring them. We're getting to a place where, you know, like we're good with them. I do feel like for so many people, like there's an embodied element to it. Like their body gives them information that says, yeah, like we're there, we're closing in over there. Like we're ready to, like we can close the books on this, we can move on, we're good. And yet so many of us have been through so much, capital T trauma, little T trauma, experience in our life where we have learned to disconnect from all of our embodied signals, from all the somatic things that actually would want to speak to us and tell us how we feel. How do you deal with that? Like when you're actually, when a lot of the signals that you're looking for would come from your body, but you have, and maybe for good reasons, compartmentalized, basically decided you're living from the head up, and you're not getting them. Will, I'll kick that over to you, I think. Well, I would use myself as an example in what you're talking about. I grew up in a very intellectual way. I came to understand through therapy that I had retreated into my mind as a safe place to be, and not feeling the things that were there for me to feel. And, you know, as I was growing up, and, you know, not to scare people away from this process that we're talking about, but when you, if you're like me and you've ignored your body and the signals of your body for a long time, when you start tuning into the body, I think this started happening for me in my early 30s with a meditation teacher who was a very somatic-oriented Buddhist meditation teacher. When you start tuning into your body for the first time, it has things to say to you that are not pleasant to hear, because it's sort of like you've had a slave locked in the dungeon of your mind for a long time. But I would just encourage people that it's very worth it to do that work because the synchronization between the body and the mind is a beautiful gift that helps you operate your life in a much more efficient, less friction-y kind of way to develop that presence is really worthwhile. And I think many people are growing up in situations, you know, like the one I grew up in where, and I think, you know, Christus too, is just a cultural thing of like, we're very mental in our culture. We don't tend to orient in the way that Christus described just a minute ago of like, okay, my body's feeling something, there must be intelligence there. You know, we tend to write it off or question it or even just disregard it. Chris, did you have a similar sort of journey from the head into the body? Let me think about that. Just kidding. I think I did have that kind of journey. Yeah, it's hate, yeah. For those not watching video here, she's just like, dude, are you serious? Don't look, I'm telling you that. I mean, Jonathan, I keep attempting to get more and more embodied every single day. So it's, yes, it's definitely been a journey. And one thing that I wanna say here in relationship to our agreements and how we do our partnership in relationship to what you're talking about, small T trauma, big T trauma. I mean, Will's really the expert in all of that in his background, in his profession. But here, what we really stand for, which I think is different from most couples, first of all, we believe that we co-create everything together. Our failures, our successes, that we both have a part in whatever our outcomes are. But also that we are standing for the healing of the younger wounded, we call them parts of ourselves. There's different ways to talk about it. That has experienced high levels of either trauma or different things in life that keep us being in limited perspectives or shrinking down or not coming to the table. That both of us are responsible for each other's parts and the healing of those parts. Usually, and I think Will was talking about this in the very beginning of our conversation, usually the narrative is that's yours to deal with. Go work on that, whether it's on your cushion or with a therapist and then come back here once you've got your stuff together. And then we'll be able to move forward. But here, we're actually really taking co-responsibility for our wounded parts to heal. And that's, I think, one of the powerhouses of our partnership because I can only heal so much of myself, whether it's with a therapist or something else, but together we can heal so much more and so much more than becomes possible for me individually, but also us as a couple. Yeah, I mean, that lands a lot. Let's actually dive into the mechanics of agreements because it's one thing to just say sit down and write down your agreements with, but let's get specific here. If we talk about creating a relationship agreement or a list of relationship agreements, let's start with just like one. What is the, what's the structure of a relationship agreement that actually works? Christy, you wanna start us off? We have to both understand what the agreement is. It's not just like, okay, it's like, we say color blue, the color blue. We all separately think of a color, particular shade of blue, but we're not actually talking about the shade of blue. We're not actually talking about the same thing. So we have to really understand what it is that we're agreeing to, and it has to be applicable in some way. Like we have to know, okay, this is the moment that we can use that agreement. And there's obviously questions that we could ask to help people be like, where do we even start about what the content is, but for it to be useful, I think those two things have to be in place and will there might be other things that you're thinking of too. I think they have to be mostly equally meaningful to both parties for both people to buy into them enough. So I think there are certain principles that I think work really well, like mutuality, fairness, justice, as a foundation of how two people can feel fulfilled in something that they're working on together, if it's a relationship, business partnership, what have you. And I think both people are gonna get challenged in different ways at different times by different agreements. So that's, maybe we went a little overboard. We have 24 relationship agreements, but having more than one, I think is useful for covering some of the landscape of what can go wrong and how you can get into tough spots together. Yeah, so I wanna make sure I'm getting this right. It sounds like, okay, so one, they have to be explicit. Like you can't just bat it around and assume that you both know what you're talking about. Like, and probably a good way to do it is literally write it down or record it on. Record the audio, whatever it is, but actually like memorialize it in some way. Mutual, like you both look at this and you're nodding along and saying, we understand what this is. Our understanding is the same and we agree to it. And that the language really matters. Be specific and not ambiguous. Is there more or did I get anything off there? I'm both committed to it and they can see that they can see why it would be supportive to their partnership. Let's talk about some of your agreements and kind of break them down a little bit and see how they fall into this. One of yours, from what I understand, and by the way, everyone sort of like joining us, we'll share a link to a downloadable PDF where, I forgot what you guys should call it, it's like the top 10 agreements or something like that, where you can learn more and also learn more about. But so one agreement until Miff and getting this right is we agree to gamble everything for love. Oh, that's such a good one. Okay, walk me through this. Crystal, let's start out. Okay, so I love that you asked this question because when Will and I realized that we are going to pursue a relationship together, we knew that if we didn't gamble everything for love, that we wouldn't create the kind of partnership we wanted. So this was the very first agreement that we made. And to us, it meant that we were gonna put it all on the table. We were gonna address the rubs. We were gonna bring all of ourselves forward, all the parts of us, that even the ones that we hold back a little bit, we're gonna put it on the table to see what kind of partnership is actually here. So it includes taking a lot of risks, a lot of being a lot of vulnerabilities, bringing them forward. Will, what else would you add to that? Well, I think it's a really helpful antidote for us, personally, because we come from, I mean, I come from the South, Christ is Midwestern. We come from this sort of buttoned up, culture where you maybe would suppress or hold back or delete something that you really, really, really want, but you think it might irritate the other person or make them uncomfortable, like investing in a coaching program that's really expensive that's gonna take me or Christa to the next level of our career expression, for example. Or I really want that new bike or something, but it's really expensive and like, what's Christa gonna think about that or so on? Or like, I really want you to do something differently. Yes. You know, that feels very vulnerable. Like I really want you to show up for me in a different way. Or I really was impacted by the thing that you did and here's how he's impacted. And can we talk about that? Those kinds of things, which we, I would say we really practice that today. And if we're not reviewing our agreements, so we might get a little bit astray, but we come back to them. 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Although it may be, in part, if you're investing in something together. But it's really like everything is its emotional stakes. If I'm concerned, if I'm feeling really vulnerable, if I'm upset, I'm going to put that on the. I agree to bring that to the relationship. I agree to not just sit on it, but to actually surface it and let's deal with it. I'm going to gamble being uncomfortable, being rejected, being in an argument where I just really don't want to be arguing, being wrong in the name of preserving this love that we have. Is that right? You should write the next talk in relationship agreement's first because that was amazing. Yes. Being willing to be messy and to show, very much like you said, Jonathan, about being wrong, like to show a neurotic, crazy, incorrect perception. I have a story that you're judging the crap out of me right now. That's what I see in your face. Is that true? And then it's like, well, yeah, it is true. Or it's not. It's usually not what we're thinking about our partners and our faces. There's a whole line of work around that. So it's really about surfacing assumptions, too. And risking being wrong about your assumptions. But also risking then resolution. It's like, oh, wow, like, Christa, I thought you were totally judging me. And I'm feeling a little upset and angry about it. And then you're like, dude, I was literally thinking about what I'm buying when I go to this place. Exactly. That's usually the case. Right. It's like, what am I going to do with my friends? Like, down the road? It's those unspoken things, right, that's so often relationships. It's what's not said, I think, that gets us so much more in trouble than what's actually said. Yeah. So true. Absolutely. And if we're not saying them, we don't understand what our capacity or partnership has. We're not actually leaning in to see what's available to us in our connection. I think it was Christa who mentioned this earlier. But one of your agreements also is we agreed to repair ruptures abundantly and stay in conversation. That's fancy language. Was that actually me? Is it? Yeah. Well, do you want to take a step with that? Well, so it's a common phenomenon. I probably almost anyone can relate to is you're in an argument with someone you care about and they raise their hand or say something sharp and walk away. And there's no completion of that experience. Maybe they come back in the room 10 minutes later and everyone's acting like nothing happened or that the moment is over. It's passed. And the person who might be tracking that or feeling that the moment hasn't passed and there's something left to do might not feel comfortable bringing it up. So abundant repair is when, as we were talking about earlier, our litmus test is that our bodies are relaxed and want to be with each other. There's no more sense of concern or edge. It takes time sometimes to get to the abundant repair. But we do have an efficient strategy that we use. And, Chris, do you want to tell Jonathan about it? I'm thinking about the one where one of us is really upset and the other one points to the couch. Couch time. Yeah. So this is something that really helps co-regulate each other. So that means basically I'm not going off on my own and leaving the conversation to self-regulate myself until I maybe feel ready for the conversation or maybe I'm not even going to go back into the conversation. But if one of us point to the couch, that means that usually there's one of us who's pretty activated and not regulated, not centered, we're pretty disrupted. And so the dysregulated person will lay on the couch on their back and the less dysregulated person will lay on top of them and will just breathe and breathe together until there's some sort of somatic relief in the system. And usually it happens after 30 seconds or a minute. And then we can go back into the content. But really staying inside of the conversation is the big point of this agreement. OK, does that really work? Because I'm just a big straight. I'm pretty sure one really pissed off person lying down on a couch facing up. The other one lying down on top of them. And the person on the bottom just being like, now I'm even more bothered because I just lie here and go into my own space and relax. But you're saying this is actually a thing that legitimately works. Legitimately. There's a couple of things. Will, you probably know the science better. But for me, it's like the pressure of Will. That's like I'm furious. And he points to the couch and I'm even like, heck no, I'm not going to the couch. But because we have this practice, I know that it works. And there's a part of me that actually, I was like, OK, fine. When I feel his body on me, there's the weight. And my body starts to relax. When I feel our chests breathing together, there's probably something related to mother, I'm guessing. Well, you might know. But there's something that actually happens where if I'm willing and just settle down, my nervous system will literally calm down. And it might, again, it might take a minute. But it does absolutely, at least for us, 100% success rate. It's never failed for us. Well, I think there are a number of things going on. There's the hormone oxytocin, the social connection hormone that gets activated when an infant and a mother are cuddling and there's breastfeeding going on and so on. I think that when two mammals who are in the same family are touching each other, that's happening. There's also interesting electrophysiology happening around heart variability and the autonomic nervous system and the social engagement system of the parasympathetic part of the vagal nerve. So there's a lot happening that tips the scale away from overdrive of fight or flight system toward more rest and digest. And it does seem to be more efficient than talking about things. Because when you're very activated, at least when I'm very activated, I often say things that I regret later. But it's better for me not to allow my vocal cords to be worked by a younger part of me that's really furious, at least in the heat of the moment. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting to me here also is that we started out with this single agreement. We agree to repair ruptures abundantly and stay in the conversation. OK, so you agree to that, but then you get to a point where there's a really major rupture. There's a big fierce argument. And then so you don't just leave it at the agreement, you're like, OK, so for us to honor this agreement, we need tools and strategies and maybe tools and strategies that we actually don't have at the time we're making the agreement. So then part of what you're agreeing to here is also saying, if we don't have those, in order for us to honor it, then we need to actually get them. We need to create them. We need to study them. We need to learn them. That's part of what we're talking about here. It's not just saying we're going to write down this agreement and try and honor it. It's like, we're going to write down this agreement because it matters to us. It lets us uphold the vision of the relationship that we want. Let's us create the union and the impact that we want to have within the relationship and outside of it. But maybe at the same time, we've got some of the skills needed to actually honor it. But this matters so much to us that this is going to actually motivate us now to actually go and develop the skills and strategies so that we can honor this, because it means a lot to me. It's almost like it tells you where to spend your energy and what to invest in also. That's so well articulated. And when we need it, and even when we're just trying to stay optimized as a couple, but also when we really need it, we'll bring in support if we can't do it ourselves, which is another way of adding to our toolkit. So you shared that you have 24, 25 agreements between you. We have 24. We made it 25th about a year ago, but we can't remember what it is. So we'll say, we're just going to stick with 24. The 25th agreement is actually to write down the future agreements so that we don't remember. Thinking back over nine years together, seven years, it matters. Of those agreements, do you have a sense for what the single hardest one has been to consistently honor? Chris is nodding. What do you got? Yeah, we'll actually set it before, which I was surprised. You brought that one, but that was great, which is the agreement to see each other with fresh eyes every day, because of how hard it is to realize that every time we go away from each other, something's happened to us. We have new experiences. If we're lucky, we have new insights about ourselves, or we move the needle in our own level of self-development. And when we come back together, we're slightly a different person. And when we commit to seeing with each other with fresh eyes every day, we're committing to the aliveness and the generativity that actually we embody as human beings. And I'm not looking at Will and be like, oh, here we go again. Here's Will. I already know who he is. I already know what he's going to say. But it requires that I bring forward something that my brain isn't maybe habitually used to, which is seeing Will as evolving, developing human being every minute of his life, even if he's comfortable and not going after the growth mentality all the time. But he is. He's a different person. So that, I think, for both of us, Will, is the hardest agreement that we have. It runs counter to what our brain wants to do in terms of conserving energy. When we've been around a person for a while, we tend to automatically assume the opposite of what Christu was describing, that, OK, here's the, I know this person. There was a rabbi. I can't remember which rabbi this, I'm not Jewish, but there was a rabbi who said, the worst thing you can say about a person is, I know that guy, which is a similar message of what we're talking about. How do we bring an elevated level of curiosity to every moment with each other? And that was something I learned from Christu for the first time, is that curiosity is a discipline and a practice. It's not something that just happens spontaneously. In my life prior to Christ, I thought, well, that's just something that I either have curiosity about this situation or I don't. And it's not my responsibility to stay in touch with curiosity. That really lands so powerfully with me, both of you, this notion of, especially the longer you are, you're in a relationship with somebody, the more you've been through, the more you've had, like versions of the same conversation, you just start to assume, I know this person, I know your tells, I know your values, I know your beliefs, I know everything about you. I know what you're thinking right now, what you're feeling and how you're going to respond. And you just assume, like, you know the next word out of a person's mouth. And it's just so often wrong. And it leads to so much friction, so much conflict. That doesn't have to happen. Totally. And as somebody, for both of us, I think, will, and I both value really being seen and really being known by your partner. And that gets completely missed when we're operating from, I already know you. And it's also a weird thing to say, but you don't know me. In a way, it's unsettling. Yeah. Because it's like, if we're both constantly in a process of growth and change and evolution, on the one hand, we want certain things to always be the same, because we feel like that's the bedrock of a relationship. We're concerned that if we're constantly growing and changing, if the puzzle pieces individually are changing shape over time, that seven years, 10 years from now, if they still fit the way they did in the beginning, that's not entirely within our control. And that creates a lot of fear. I think to a certain extent, we don't want the other person to be different. But then when they show up the same way in a way that bugs you, you punish them for it. So it's like a total catch way too. We want them to be different only in the ways that we want them to be different. Only the way that somehow benefits us in exactly the way we want to benefit. So somebody who's just kind of joining us and saying, this sounds really interesting. I'm open to the idea of relationship agreements. Where do I start? What would you say to them? My advice would be to start where the two of you, assuming you're in a partnership, where the two of you tend to have breakdowns or continued loops where you get stuck and can't quite get out of where you're getting stuck. And if you really look to see, OK, what am I doing in that moment? What are you doing in that moment? What do we want to be doing in that moment? Then you can start to really look to see, OK, what might the agreement need to be or what we want it to be in order to make it through those stuck areas. That would be one area. I think you could also ask the question in addition to what Krista said of what are we up to as a couple? What are we committed to? What are we here to do together? Why are we together? And some couples get together every year and ask themselves that question with fresh eyes. And I think that's a beautiful practice. It's interesting that you said some people do it on a regular basis. Because I'm also thinking, the way that you might step into this would be very different if it was a brand new relationship versus heading towards some major commitment versus a long time relationship. But maybe going through a major change like kids leaving the house or something like that, it's like, oh, wait a minute. We've had these other beings in the home with us for 18, 20 years. And it's been a blessing and incredible and also chaos and also a buffer. And now that's not there anymore. Who are we? What do we stand for? What is our relationship? And then what are the agreements that we might sit down and make together to support this? And also probably even the question, are we on the same page with the fundamentals about what this relationship is about? And on the one hand, it sounds like potentially really hard conversations. But at the same time, not having them isn't really in service of anything good. Yeah. I think that's so well said. Yeah. It's sort of this balance. I really appreciate what you said a few minutes ago, Jonathan, about how scary it is to imagine that the person coming home from their work day is a different person from the one who left in the morning and how much fear we have as human beings of change and of not knowing what's going on. So I think there's a balance of feeling that security and having a foundation under our feet, but also feeling the challenge slash adventure of accepting that life is full of those changes that are always happening to us all the time and developing a way to meet those challenges as joyfully and sovereignly if that's an adverb as possible. Yeah. There's an energy in me that's always kind of said stasis is death individually. And I would imagine to a certain extent, I share that same belief when it comes to the relationships that matter most to me. I don't know whether that's right or wrong. I just know for me it's something that I've always believed and I've always felt. And maybe that changes for me over time too, maybe seasons of my life. That changes to a certain extent also where just stability and comfort becomes actually something that's much important to me. I'll hold the space for that. But yeah, it is interesting the way that we all dance individually with this notion of security, wanting the security and the stability. And at the same time, wanting everything that growth and evolution and change also gives to us. I don't think there's any one right answer, but it's a question that I constantly ask. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle and our conversations in this container of a good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? So Christelle, I'll ask that of you first. For me to live a good life is to really be so deeply in contact with what's moving through me so that I can actually share that with others and support others in sharing with me. And I think that for me, the good life is really having deep, rich connections with the beings around us. It brings me a lot of joy and goodness. For me, I'm living my best life when I'm chasing ambitious goals of having impact in the world while at the same time balancing those activities with deep connection with myself and the people around me. Thank you both. Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Dr. Deepika Chopra about toxic positivity and how to be optimistic without tipping into delusion, distraction, or even harm. So be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss the next episode. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, and share it with just one person. If you wanna share it with more, hey, that's awesome, but just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. On BBC iPlayer, the audience is the unique ingredient of question time. I play for the local brass band. I work in the kind of EV sector. And vice principal at a local school. You never know what the audience are gonna say. We love a debate, don't we? It's nice to be able to say something that's really important to me. That is the joy and the jeopardy. It gives me the chance to actually take politicians to account. Bringing power to the people. Let's get our first question. 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