This message comes from Normal Gossip, a Radiotopia podcast. Join host Rachel Hampton as she shares juicy, strange, funny, and utterly banal gossip about people you'll never know and never meet. Subscribe to Normal Gossip wherever you get your podcasts. Ordering food delivery is not rational. It's impulsive. It's the equivalent of going to the grocery store when you're hungry. It just feels that there's been a mentality shift where people have just decided that they are willing to pay a very hefty premium for convenience, even when other parts of their life are very unaffordable. Today, we are talking about breaking habits and doing something new, even when it's hard. I have a very special guest here with me, Margaret Serino. Welcome back once again to It's Been a Minute. Hi, Brittany. Good to be back. Okay, so Marge, you're a producer over at LifeKit, which is NPR's how-to and advice podcast. And I've heard you've been trying to do something a little differently in your life. So I had this habit of ordering food delivery, like a lot. And by a lot, you mean... If I can be vulnerable about this with you, okay? I think at the most, there were some weeks I was ordering takeout like four times, perhaps. Oh, okay. Four times a week. Okay. And what kind of things did you get? Okay. Usually the things I crave the most are like nachos, ramen, pizza. And I don't think ordering delivery is like inherently bad. It can definitely make people's lives easier, including people with disabilities, people navigating mental health issues, and new parents, to name a few. But for me personally, this was my biggest vice. Like, I realized that all my money was going towards the instant gratification of delivery food, and I was barely saving anything. I was definitely in the trenches for a while there. I mean, you know, Marge, I think a lot of people are in those trenches. I mean, some data from the National Restaurant Association said that over a third of American adults surveyed order delivery at least once a week. That report also showed that around 60% of both millennials and Gen Z say delivery is an essential part of their lifestyles. Marge, I invited you here because I wanted to know, what does the food delivery boom say about our culture's relationship to convenient tech? Why are so many of us caught in its grip? And how might we get out of it? Let's get to it. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, so one of the things that came up around the same time we started talking about this episode was this juicy piece from the New York Times about the food delivery phenomenon. It went kind of viral recently. Have you seen it? Okay. Yes, I was sent this. Okay. Okay. So it was reported by Priya Krishna. She's a cookbook author and a food reporter for the New York Times. It's called Freedom with a Side of Guilt, How Food Delivery is Reshaping Mealtime. And what was most shocking to me was like the hard numbers for how much people spent in a week on delivery. Like $300, $700 a week. That's like a second rent. Yeah, it's harrowing. But like, I can't even say anything because I was too scared to look at my own numbers. I don't blame you. Four times a week. I mean, yeah, that's why I wanted to scale it way back. Like, some truths are hard to confront. Some truths are hard to confront. Well, my producer Liam talked to Priya about who's doing delivery like this. And here's what she said. It's worth noting that, you know, there are people spending hundreds of dollars on delivery that made six figures, but there were people spending hundred dollars on delivery that made, you know, 50 grand or less. So it's not as if this is a phenomenon for the rich or the poor. It's not an urban versus rural phenomenon. It's really you see every type of person from every part of society participating in this economy. She was also careful to point out that it's not like people don't know it would cost less to make something at home. But for the people she interviewed, it comes from a more emotional place. I think the important thing to note is that ordering food delivery is not rational. It's impulsive. As one person I interviewed put it, it's the equivalent of going to the grocery store when you're hungry. What was really surprising was the tension that so many people felt. They felt a tremendous amount of guilt for all of the delivery they're ordering. They felt like they knew that drivers are not being paid well. They knew that they had food in the fridge. They knew that they could just walk across the street and go to the restaurant. but it just feels that there's been a mentality shift where people have just decided that they're willing to pay a very hefty premium for convenience even when other parts of their life are very unaffordable. Marge, is that how you felt? Oh my god, definitely. Like so much guilt and shame for the weirdness of having my food brought to me by a person I would barely interact with. And like I always rationally knew that a lot of delivery food drivers say they're exploited or mistreated by the apps they work for. Sorry, are independent contractors for. Right. And I know companies like DoorDash, Uber Eats and Grubhub have denied wrongdoing. But all of these companies have had to pay millions of dollars in settlements for alleged wage theft noncompliance with minimum wage laws and deceiving workers about the amount of pay Right And in the moment I was making the emotional decision to kind of ignore that truth for the sake of ease But also, I mean, aside from the moral spirals I would be going through, I also just felt down on myself because I wasn't a great cook. I made what I can only describe as slop. I felt very helpless, let's say. Well, I mean, I have to say I love some good slop from time to time, but the feeling helpless part, you are definitely not alone in that. There was one time a few years ago where I was, you know, hungover after a friend's birthday and kind of lying on the couch. That's writer and author P.E. Moskowitz. And I ordered a sandwich and I got there and it was like cold and soggy. And I paid like $40 for it or something after all the fees and everything. And I was just lying on my couch watching TV eating this disgusting sandwich and was just like, what am I doing with my life? They had a New Year's resolution to stop ordering delivery a couple years ago, which they wrote about in GQ. They spoke to my producer, Liam. It really did feel like this kind of existential thing more than just, you know, being disappointed in the food. It felt like there's something wrong. I was just like, I've made my life so much about convenience and so much about, you know, finding the path of least resistance. And how can I change that? I was really struck by something they said, though, about why it makes sense that so many people are turning towards delivery. Life should be much easier in many ways. Like we shouldn't have to work as much, like, you know, wages should be higher, all that kind of stuff. But I think because life is so hard in those ways, we've become accustomed to or addicted to these technologies of convenience that promise to make our lives easier in all the other areas that are actually like areas where they should be hard, if that makes sense. So like that we lose out on the joy of cooking for friends. We lose out on what it means to like walk down a city street and, you know, absorb what's all around us when we take an Uber everywhere. If we're on social media, kind of like rotting our brains, we lose the kind of difficulty of getting through a complex text. You know, all these ways that we've made our lives more convenient and easier are all the ways that they should be harder. And all the ways that our lives are harder, like should be easier. So everything is like reversed. I agree with this sentiment so much. Like, I think part of the internal logic is I'm overwhelmed, I'm burnt out. Let me do this one thing that will ease my load. But actually the trade-off is, okay, maybe I have 30 more minutes in my day, but it's 30 minutes that probably I'm just using to work more or doom scroll. And so I definitely feel a loss of this kind of varied daily satisfaction that P.E. is talking about. We're like, I don't want to choose the hard thing that's more rewarding in the long run because life feels like it's getting harder. Right. And also for some people, why save money if you can't put it towards anything? Totally. Here's Priya again. everything costs. And it just makes more sense to these people to spend on these short-term indulgences because they feel like whether they spend on them or not, they're not going to be able to afford these longer-term investments. I definitely feel that point about long-term planning versus short-term treats. It's hard to see how, you know, my little acorns could add up to a down payment on an apartment. You know, a matcha that's $10 after tip, it feels better right now. And that thinking seems like the backbone of our current kind of like little treat culture. Yes, totally. I definitely had that mindset. But one of the things that really changed that for me was reminding myself that there are bigger ticket items I do want to spend my money on. Oh, like what? Well, I keep a list on my phone of things I want to save up for, like tattoos or classes I want to take or a trip here and there. And when I feel like I've saved enough, I treat myself to something from my list. Big treat culture. So sometimes if I feel the urge to like get nachos on Uber Eats, I look at my list at things I'd much rather spend on. That is so smart. That is a good tip. We are going to take a quick break. But first, if any of you are finding it's been a minute for the first time, welcome. I hope you're enjoying the show and that you come back every Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning for brand new episodes. If you're enjoying this episode, we did one like it last week about choosing the struggle of learning a new language rather than relying on translation tech. And next Monday, want to know more about dating offline? I'll have you covered. Coming up after the break. Like I didn't buy seasonings or sauces. Marge. Marge. Marge, no. Yeah, we can laugh at her. We love her. She needed help. My past self. Stick around. I met this guy on the bar train one time and I had my bass with me and he goes, man, what do you want to do? What's your dream? I'm Jesse Thalarn on Bullseye Raphael Sadiq. He's nominated for an Oscar. He played bass for Prince. And of course, he co-founded Tony, Tony, Tony. Uncle, I want to be in a band with my brother. That's on the next Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app at MaximumFun or wherever you get podcasts Okay I want to hear what other strategies you have for making not ordering delivery easier Yeah, well, going back to the emotional part of delivery, it wasn't just about the convenience aspect for me. I think I also had a sort of complex around, quote, good food and bad food. Like when I went to the grocery store, I'd buy like tempeh, brown rice, broccoli. You know, I was my most aspirational self, if you will. Sorry to interject. Why would you want to eat the brown rice and tempeh? You have to make yourself. No, it's true. Yeah, like why would you want to do that? I could see how that would feel like suffering by comparison. You're exactly right. And I never wanted to make it. And so I'd order food. So no wonder I was ordering nachos all the time. And that is also what added to the guilt for me, like feeling like I was giving into temptation. And like part of what I've been trying to deprogram in myself is this separation between good and bad or like discipline and temptation. I'm realizing it's important to still have these things that I crave in my diet, just from like a mental, emotional standpoint. So now I buy them at the grocery store. Oh, I totally relate to that. I mean, I learned over time I have to buy my regular degular groceries, of course, and also get a few things that are more exciting, like frozen pizza or like that Trader Joe's orange chicken. This is not an ad, by the way, for the orange chicken. I just like it. It's a gold standard meal for many of us. I mean, for good reason, too. I mean, like, you make that, some rice, some frozen broccoli. I'm going to town. Okay. So you said earlier that you kind of have a love-hate relationship with cooking. I'm assuming you've been doing more of it now, then. Has it gotten any easier? Here is what's changed. Cooking always felt like maximum difficulty because I used to spend my whole night on one complicated, not good recipe. Yeah, now I have more quick meals in my rotation, ones that feel good to make and eat, like hearty winter veggie stews and noodle dishes. Also to be vulnerable, again, I never used to garnish my food. Like I didn't buy seasonings or sauces and stuff. Marge, Marge, no. Yeah, we can laugh at her. We love her. She needed help. My past self. whenever I was cooking for myself, it was definitely like fuel. Like I said, it was gym bro slop. But now that I have more intention around cooking, I buy coriander and green onions and sesame seeds and make all my cute lunches look prettier. It's like, wow, I deserve to eat nice food. I love that though. I love that. And you do. We all do. We all deserve to eat nice food. We really do. Yeah, we really do. And Brittany, to be so real, cooking is still not my favorite thing to do, but it feels like less effort for sure than it has in the past. And I can definitely feel more of the long-term benefits too that this short-term effort brings me. Well, I'm glad you bring that up because I was curious about what the benefits are to cooking. And it's not really shocking that it likely improves your diet. So we know from a couple of what we call population level or large survey studies on nutrition that cooking more frequently, especially cooking dinner more at home, is associated. So likely leads to an improvement in people's diet and having more intake of fruits and vegetables, more intake of whole grains. That's Dr. Nicole Farmer. She's a physician scientist at the National Institute of Health's Clinical Center who focuses on dietary behaviors. She spoke to Liam, my producer? Many years ago now, maybe about 10, 11 years ago, I was in primary care in Maryland. And I would tell patients, you know, you should eat better. You can eat this diet and lower your blood pressure and manage your weight. And people would tell me, I don't know how to cook. I have no idea how to put this into action and what if it doesn't taste good and my family hates it. So I started to do cooking classes for patients in the evening. And what I noticed is that not only was their diet, were their diets improving and their physical health improving as I continued to see them in class and see them in clinic. But the way that they socialized with others started to improve. People who I knew were oftentimes like introvert and reclusive were opening up. And the next thing I know, they're forming groups for cooking together. When we're not in class, they're forming walking groups. So for me, I started to realize that there's another benefit to cooking outside of this diet, and that's the social connection. So Dr. Farmer co-authored a systematic review of studies that explored the psychosocial benefits of cooking. So what we found, so we only looked at people who'd gone through cooking classes. That was because we wanted to see kind of this before and after benefit that would be reported in each study. And we found that in various types of patient groups that people reported increased self-esteem, If they felt like they were having depression, they reported lower depression. And then people also reported just improvement in social connection. And so if we think about the epidemic of loneliness that has become more apparent and more obvious over the last five to six years, we can think about cooking as potentially this pro-social behavior. Okay, that self-esteem piece was like everything for me. I felt bad that I wouldn't cook and that I wouldn't stop myself from ordering takeout. This habit was making me feel less like a self-sufficient adult and also really reliant on systems I felt guilty for supporting. But now I know oh I actually can make something that tastes good and I don need to pay someone to hand it to me And look it not like I a five star chef now but I do feel way more confident in the kitchen and just like more confident in general I love hearing that. And I figured the benefits of cooking would be good, but I don't think I assume that they'd be this meaningful. Going back to what Dr. Farmer said about cooking as a pro-social behavior, I want to know, like, have you cooked more with or for others? I have. I actually used to have a big mental block around cooking for others because I felt so insecure about my cooking. But I forced myself to do this more. Like, this past Valentine's Day, I had a little celebration with my friends. We all, like, made shrimp scampi together and salad and, like, a spicy vodka pasta. And it wasn't anything too complicated, but we were all glad that we made the evening a little more special by cooking together. That sounds so fun and communal and special. I love that. It was so sweet. Yeah. According to Dr. Farmer, we might all want to start doing that more. Even people who do cook a lot already. It's a burden. Yeah. And cooking is one of those tasks that previously in most cultures, it was done in a group. either the household or an extended household, it wasn't necessarily seen as a one-person job to do. We have taken that on, but we don't necessarily have to. And I think that the more that we shift back to thinking about how do we even batch cook in groups, I think the better we can do. There have been great projects that are community kitchens. So when you don't feel like cooking, you can rely on someone in your neighborhood or someone through a community kitchen that has cooked that can share their meal with you. So I think those type of shared community resources actually help to decrease the one person burden of cooking and feeling like I have to be the only one to do this. Oh, like that makes so much sense that cooking used to be done a lot in groups. I mean, cooking, it is such a repetitive task. I think back to this Aretha Franklin interview with Larry London on the Border Crossings radio show. And he asks her what her biggest challenges are. The biggest challenges for me is trying to figure out what to cook for dinner nightly, you know, just night after night. What is it going to be tonight? And I'm like, girl, me too. And I say that even as a person who likes cooking. No, it's so true. I also know we don't all feel this burden equally. Like, I'm thinking of families with lots of young kids where the adults are obviously going to have less time to cook, right? That's going to be a bigger burden. But it does seem like spreading this burden across social networks could help. I mean, I'm definitely into that solution. But also, you don't have to cook expertly or even cook more to rely on delivery less. P. Moskowitz said they relied a lot on things like quesadillas and bodega sandwiches. It's not as black and white as just like start to be like some kind of great home chef or something. But it's about practicing, literally practicing going to the grocery store, practicing stocking your pantry with things that make it easy to make something easy for yourself. I would take the radical step of leaving my house, walking down the street and going to get a sandwich at the deli. I would even cook for myself or not even cook, just like literally assemble for myself, throw together a salad or a sandwich or whatever. But it really forced me to be more intentional with not only how I eat, but just how I plan my day. I feel what P.E. is saying here so much. You don't have to go from ordering $50 burgers to making gourmet at home. There's so much room in between. I just think we get caught in thinking we need to have these well-composed meals, especially seeing so much like styled food content on social media. That's so real. But anything we want to be dinner can be dinner. Embrace anarchy. Right, exactly. Okay, okay, Marge, my last question for you. Has it been worth it to choose Inconvenience? convenience? I can only speak for myself and my own situation, but yeah, it has been worth it. I mean, I do still occasionally order takeout maybe like once or twice a month now when I want to treat myself. But now when I do choose the path of least resistance, it feels more intentional and a lot less shameful. That makes a lot of sense. I'm still stuck on what PE said earlier, Our days used to be filled with a much richer variety of challenges. And when I think about how tech has allowed some of us to outsource these challenges, I'm left wondering what the effect of that is. I'd say ultimately, inviting more immediate discomfort into my life has definitely aligned me more with my sense of self, with the values I claim to have. Like, I also just feel more capable, more in control of my life. And it's like, wow, look at all these skills I have that I didn't think I would this time last year. That's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. Marge, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with all of us. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Brittany. Of course. That was Margaret Serino, producer at NPR's Life Kit. Also, this episode was inspired by Catherine Jaser Morton's fabulous piece in the cut called In 2026, We Are Friction Maxing. I highly recommend checking it out at thecut.com. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
