27 - Empire Secrets: How the Roman Empire Can Transform Your Leadership and Business

Welcome to the Impact Podcast. I'm Eddie Wilson, here to help you visualize what others cannot see, create opportunities where others have failed, and push you to build empires where once there was empty space. Let's embark on this journey together and make a difference in this world. Welcome to the podcast today. I'm super excited about this episode. If you've seen my brand over the past 10 years, you know that I'm a fanatic of the Roman Empire. I love the writings of Aurelius, Marcus Aurelius. I am a huge fan of Ryan Holiday, who talks so much about the Stoics, but not just the principles and philosophies, but the principles that actually took something of insignificance to great significance to the point where we're still talking about it today. As a matter of fact, if you look at the operating system I've built for my companies, it's literally called Empire. I have built them on the principles. To me, the two greatest empires that I think we can learn from today are, number one, the Roman Empire, but then also the Napoleonic Empire, that empire that Napoleon created because he built it on a system of codes and principles. If you've ever read my book, The Titan Doctrine, you know that I talk a lot about these pieces. In this episode, today we're going to talk a little bit about what principles did Rome use, that we should be using in our business, our life, our growth. All of that that we are going through in life today, we can rely on the successes and principles that they used to put them into our life. I want to say this, that founders, leaders, and builders can draw powerful and enduring lessons from the rise and the resilience empire, but not just that, also key cautions on what can actually cause it to fall, right? Because it's not just the rise of the Roman Empire, it's also the fall of the Roman Empire that we can learn from. So let's jump in. Number one, what is the first principle that we can learn from? Number one, we must build our businesses and our lives on principles, not personalities. We must build it on principles and not personalities. As a matter of fact, if you look back through the kind of annals of time specific to the Roman Empire, you might be able to come up with three or four emperors, you might be able to come up with three or four leaders, but by and large, you're not naming the dozens of leaders that Rome enjoyed through that time period. And that's because while there were some standouts and there were some crazies, the Roman Empire was built on the principles of the Roman Empire, and to the degree that these personalities adhered to it, you actually find success, right? So what happens is, is the ones that we actually go back to and we lean into and we talk about like the Marcus Aurelius kind of character, what you find is, is a person of high character who actually adhered to the principles in a very dedicated way. And the ones that you least know, or the ones that you see where the Empire dipped or they had little stumbles here and there, it was the ones that were tied to the lack of adherence to these principles. So what were some of these principles, right? The principles of the Roman Empire, number one, is that they outlasted Kings, Generals, emperors, because it was built on institutions, systems that worked beyond any one leader. They had a system of governance, they had a system of law, that a system of hierarchy within the military, right? And they had these principles and systems that everyone adhered to, and then they had a team that would push the leader back towards that center. And so number one, they didn't start with a personality, they actually started with the institutions. This is important because most entrepreneurs start with a personality and they will die with that personality. The personality quickly has to translate into core values and why we do what we do, and then the principles by which we live by to make sure that those core values are sustained. And so when you think about your organization, you think about what you're building. If you're building it on your personality, it will be the shortest live success you've ever experienced. I am fearful for this generation because this generation, you know, it said that we went from the age of industry to the age of information to now we're in what they call the age of influence. And so many people are building their businesses and their lives on their personal brand. And while I think that personal brand is vitally important, so important, I spend a lot of time building my own personal brand. It has to transition into the principles of an institution because it cannot sustain over time on the personality of a man or a woman. And so we have to make sure that as we begin to find success in personality, we very quickly transition into principles. Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance and systems, not charismatic founders. I'm going to say that one more time because I know that this goes against the very grain and nature of what people think. Sustainable ventures and movements are rooted in values, governance and systems, not just charismatic founders. You know, it was interesting watching Apple, which to me is one of the greatest companies of our day, really be built out of the mind and the personality of Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs wasn't the only personality, right? Like you had a lot, you had a couple other founders there. But Steve Jobs became the personality of Apple. And then watching Apple as its transition from Steve Jobs into Tim Cook, and most people don't know a lot about Tim Cook. They don't know a lot about it. Or watching Nike go from Phil Knight, this charismatic founder now to I bet most people can't even name the CEO of Nike. But Nike is having more success today than they've ever experienced in the years under Phil Knight. So you have to transition. It can't just be a charismatic leader. It has to move into systems, values, governance, so on and so forth. Number two, scale requires systems. You're going to find a theme here. So number one, build on principles, not personalities. Number two, scale requires systems. Roads, legal codes, bureaucracy, the military organization allowed the military allowed the Roman Empire to govern across not just one area, but if you remember, they expanded into areas that were unknown. And then what they did was they began to adhere or to hold accountable those new areas to the old systems that they built, right? What is a system? A system is a systematic way of doing things that is replicable and replicable over space and time, right? So I know that the hardest thing to do is to take a complex thing and transfer it to someone else who doesn't understand the complex thing. It's very, very hard. However, the person who is building the complex thing should have the same responsibility in building the complex thing to actually build a system to pass it on, right? So for instance, somebody who comes up with great rules and laws and governance to not actually build the system causes the deterioration of the brilliance of the system of the laws itself. So if you think about it, the brilliance of the American Empire, right, which should never be understated because what we've experienced in the American Empire is nothing short of remarkable. But if you look at it, it's those three branches of governance. It's the three branches of government. And when you think about it, it's not just the Constitution, right? It's not just the laws. It's not just the brilliance of these men, these forefathers, to think through all of the things that we were going to go through hundreds of years later and build the Constitution, which I think is a remarkable document. It's then to take something like the Supreme Court to essentially hold us accountable to those, right? So it's the systems that then hold us accountable. And so understanding how we do it, the systematic way that we do it, is what is going to stand the test of time. It's interesting because if you go to all the brilliance of art and painting around the world, you find the uniqueness that is there. And you hear people say, wow, that person looks like they paint like Van Gogh or they build like Gowdy or they, you know, whatever it is. But the reality of it is, is that those men, those painters, those creators only last one lifetime because they can't systematically pass it down. So if everything is built on creativity and art, there's no way to pass it down because there's no systems. You've heard me talk a lot about chaos and order. And this is where the chaos must come into order, because if you can't pull your chaos into order, then without order, you'll never build an empire. You'll have success that is fleeting. Systems are required for scale. To scale any operation, whether it's a company or community, you have to have strong infrastructure and repeatable process or repeatable process. Number three, resilience comes from adaptability. Resilience comes from adaptability. So we're building this, you know, foundation. Think of it this way, as you're building an organization, building a foundation, and you're building it on principles, not a personality. Then you're putting systems on top of it so that you can repeat these processes over and over again, find efficiency and productivity. The next layer is that resilience comes from adaptability. Rome actually thrived by absorbing other cultures and personalities. Here's the irony here, is that while they built a system, their system allowed for adaptation. So think about it this way, as your organization grows and you've got, let's say, one person, and you're this charismatic personality, you're a Richard Branson type personality. And so you're building it on yourself. And he really is like, oh man, I actually can't repeat this, so I need the people around me. I can't scale this, so I bring people around me. Then I bring people around, you have to realize that now you're building it on principles, not a personality. Then in order to get the most out of those people, you build systems so that everything is repeatable. However, as the organization grows, this is a massive stopping point for most businesses, is that they believe that the only thing that matters is still the philosophies and the culture of the original founder, right, which is not true. What happens is as you begin to absorb, you have to adapt. You know, when the Roman Empire moved into Africa, they didn't, they had a system of laws and governance, but they didn't steal the culture away from those communities that they were absorbing, right? Like they began to allow to still have them. Now they had their own governance, they had their own laws, but they allowed them to maintain their own faith. They allowed, a great, great piece of this would be if you are in kind of like a biblical scholar, you understand that during the time of Jesus Christ on the earth, that the Jews were actually governed by the Roman Empire. They were subservient to Rome. However, you find that they still had their synagogues, they still had their Pharisees, they still had their scribes, they still had their Sadducees, right? Like their entire system under the kind of Jewish culture still existed, but then it had the Roman Empire on top of it. So what I'm saying by principle is this, is that as you begin to absorb people into your organization or into your community, it can't just be you adapt to us. It has to be, you have to have a mechanism and you have to have a foundation that's strong enough to be able to adapt to all their ideas because they're bringing strengths and opportunities to the exact same organization that you brought strengths and opportunities to. And so this is important because I see a lot of companies who really struggle during this time period where in this period of growth, they see lots of opportunities, but they shun them, they push them off because they don't fit the narrative of what once was. Resilience comes from adaptability. Long-term survival depends on evolving with the world, integrating new ideas and staying flexible, staying flexible, listen to this, without losing your core identity. Your core identity go back as tied to the principles, it's tied to the system, it's tied to that culture, but you can adapt, you can absorb and adjust and adapt, right? The next principle that we learned from the Roman Empire is that culture is a strategic asset. Culture is a strategic asset. Culture is not just what you want things to be in your organization, it's the systematic behaviors that are represented, right? So culture isn't just about looking forward and saying, this is where I want to go, I want to be a culture of accountability, I want to be a culture of family, I want to be a culture. It's not just stating these things, it's about looking back over time and saying, did I create that? The Roman values that they use like gravitas or disciplina or virtues, right? Like these are the, these are the culture of the Roman Empire, right? Where they very much had not just what to do, but how and why to do it, right? And so culture should shape behavior. So we should have a forward look, right? We should be like, hey, this is the culture we want, we should build principles to essentially gain that culture, but we should look back over time and make sure that it's represented in the behaviors of the people. At Collective Influence, one of the cultures that I want is a give back culture, right? So I talk about this ability to create wealth and create resources in what we're doing, but then the ability to give it away and make impact. And so I start my meetings a lot of times in our town halls or our group meetings, where I'll talk about an update as to the orphanages or the feeding centers or the wells that we're digging or the businesses that we're building around the world. And we'll talk about it. Why am I talking about it consistently? Because I want it to be a part of our culture. However, if we have a give back culture corporately, and now I look back at the individuals, what I want to see is that each one of them are also taking on this same ethos, right? Like are they giving back? When I give them the opportunity or they jumping in, are they just watching me do it or and being maybe even grateful and excited about it? Or are they personifying it? Culture is not just me doing it. Culture is us doing it, right? And culture is a strategic asset because when you get people's hearts aligned, right? Like when they began to do things because they desire it, right? They want to do it. They want to do it. They see the outcomes of it. Now all of a sudden we have a cohesive unit moving forward. Culture shapes behavior, and a founder should define and defend their organization's values early. And then as a strategic kind of like outcry, it should become part of their marketing, their communication, and it should be pervasive through the entire organization. And then the last principle that I think is so vital is this. This is the last principle I want to give you that I think. Now there's a hundred principles you can pull from the Roman Empire. I mean, obviously they existed for a long period of time. The Pax Romana, the longest period of peace. I mean, like they really did something amazing or remarkable and you can take so many insights. But this is my last insight is this. Is that leadership? And I want you to hear this one if you hear any of them. Maybe I should have started with this one, but leadership is service. It's not glory. Leadership is service, not glory. To me, if I was given one topic to teach on specific to the Roman Empire, it would be this one. And that is leadership is a privilege. Leadership is something that I get to do. It's not something I have to do. And leadership is not a position that should lift my ego, should lift my persona. Leadership should be something that I see in service. There's no greater leader than a servant leader. There's no greater leader than the person who chooses to eat last when everyone else eats first. Like to me, that is the is the the leadership that I want to push and I want to push into this world. Because if you go back, I love the story of one of the the legendary kind of leaders of Rome. And he was a great general and his name was Cincinnati. And so I grew up in Ohio. So Cincinnati obviously is like kind of like from this kind of concept. But Cincinnati was one of the great generals. And after winning a massive, he literally saved the Republic. Like, I mean, like, I don't want to go deep into the story, but he saved the Republic. He was lauded. He was, I mean, like he could have had any position in Rome. And what happens is, is after he saves the Republic, you find him for the next period of time back on his farm, back with his family, no glory, and no fanfare, like he literally disappears, like he he literally is lauded as one of Rome's great saviors. And past that point in his life, you hear nothing, like it's gone, it's over. And to me, that's amazing to have the position of influence and power, and to choose peace and prosperity and family is really, really, to me, it's a it's an important part of what happened in the Roman Empire. After, you know, he returned to his farm after saving the Republic, and he didn't cling to power. I think oftentimes when we rise to a place of significance, we fear the lack of it. When we rise to a place of significance, we fear the lack of it. Because there's something inside of the human brain and mind and in kind of our culture that, you know, once I'm granted, once I'm granted the right to have ego, the last thing we want to do is set it down. But I got to tell you the most powerful thing you can do as you've been granted the right to have ego, you're successful, you're powerful, you've done it, you're amazing, you've conquered, you've crushed. The most powerful thing you can do past that point is not hold on. It's not to chase more. It's actually to set it down. Think about it. The most powerful person you've ever come in contact with in your life is the person who has all power and chooses not to wield it, right? That person's scary. That because we don't get it. We don't understand it. I'm going to tell you it's the most, it's the most powerful place you can be. True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. True leadership serves the mission, not the ego. I'm going to say it one more time, true, true, true leadership serves the mission, not the ego. If you're walking around your organization or your community and your acts are to draw more attention to yourself, more attention to your power, more attention to your prowess, more attention to your personality, right? Like you are missing the point. You're serving your ego with leadership, not the mission. Can you be less and the mission in the organization be more? Is that possible? If not, it's an ego driven desire for leadership. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that outlast you. Humility and stewardship, the two important things. Humility and stewardship build trust and institutions that will outlast you. If you want to learn from the Roman Empire, empires fall and principles last. If you want to learn from these principles that we can see in the Roman Empire, we can see how to use them in our own life, the most important one, probably where we should start with is this concept that leadership is service, not glory. You don't exist in this organization and if you do that right, it's easy to go back to point number one and make it not a personality driven organization, but a principle led organization. And then to actually build systems. You know why entrepreneurs don't build systems? Because they're afraid of insignificance. If I build a system and everyone else doesn't need me and they can just do it over and over again without me, am I needed, right? Ego again. If I then go to the next one, which is resilience comes from adaptability. Well, nobody else's ideas matter because mine matter. Why? Because if their ideas actually bring success, then what happens? Well, then you lose insignificance, ego again, right? And then culture is a strategic asset. Oftentimes, culture is a systematic way of behaviors. Do your behaviors align with the behaviors you want? Oftentimes, the reason you don't have the culture you want is because your own behaviors don't create that culture, right? And then that last piece, which is leadership is not, leadership is service, not glory. It comes down to the ego. It does every single time. It's so wild. It's why every single time somebody asks me, what's my favorite book? I give a lot of books. I love winning by Tim Grover. I love the hard thing about hard things with horror wits. I love all these books, but I always point back to Ryan Holiday's book on ego is the enemy because when I look at all these principles, what I see is as myself getting in the way, right? Like, I want all these things. I look at these things and I think, man, if I could just do this, my organization could outlast me. And guess what? The only thing standing in the way is me. It's my ego. It's harder to maintain at the top than the actual fight to get there. When you are fighting to get there, fighting to get to success, it's easy to put down the ego. All of a sudden you get to the top. You're in first place. You're leading, right? One of the scariest things to me was when we were given the title of the world's largest business tour. I hated it, you know, because I think that most people were like, oh man, we arrived. To me, it felt like, oh no, like this actually could mean the end, right? Because you know why? Once you're the largest, it's so much harder to fight to stay at the top, to not get complacent than it is to actually rise. It's easier to rise than to maintain. One last quote I'm going to leave you with for the podcast today is this. I brought up the book Winning by Tim Grover and one of my favorite quotes, the entire book. If you've never read this book, it's a must read. You've got to put it on your list. Audible, whatever it takes, get through this book. It's huge. He says, winning is not a marathon. It's a sprint with no finish line. Winning is not a marathon. It's a sprint with no finish line. You know, what's interesting is, as you're sprinting to the top and then you get there, you have to continue to sprint. Why? Because everybody else that's chasing is still sprinting, right? And that's a harsh reality. So instead of you putting all in, here's where I want to kind of anchor into real quick, is that when I just said that, you thought, oh, dear God, that means I have to sprint the rest of my life. Nope, that was your ego talking right there. Because if you build an organization that has the ability to sprint indefinitely, it can do it without you. If you're going to build a winning team, if you're going to build Apple, if you're going to build Nike, if you're going to build something significant, it has to take you out of it, right? Like when I said winning is not a marathon, it's a sprint with no finish line. You're like, oh, dear God, I have to sprint for the rest of my life. No, you have to teach others to sprint. And you have to hand off the baton. That's what the Roman Empire is all about. If you're building something meant to last, it might be a company, a movement, a legacy, and Rome offers both inspiration and caution. Make sure that you take inventory today of your organization, your company, your family, your community, and make sure that you are leaving it a better place than you found it. I love it. I have questions for each of your five steps. Can I go through them? Yeah, sure. Okay, principles versus personalities. The first thought that came to my mind was the shift that is happening where you have to build upon principles and not personalities with transparency is just getting harder and harder. Harder. It's way easier to tell in authenticity. Do you think there is relevance for personality tactic? You kind of touched on this and is it in a certain step of... Yeah, I think personality is important. And I think that you oftentimes have to build in the beginning off of a personality. It's the fastest way to growth and to significance in our society. However, you can then maintain the personality. It's like there are people that have great personalities that are leading, but you also have to be underlining everything you're doing with those systems and principles. Well, you can use it as a marketing crutch, but you don't want it to be used as an organizational operational crutch. That's the important part. I think that our personalities as we build the company need to move into more of a forward push, but also should not be reliant on the actual fulfillment and organizational structure. I think of like Moses and Aaron. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you have the face and you have the guy doing all the work. Do you have a favorite example of a leader who led with personality and a favorite example of a leader who led with principle? Yeah, I love the personality of Warren Buffett. I mean, I just enjoy him mainly because he's an anomaly. He's a guy who's multi-billionaire, who still lives in the same house, drives the same car. It didn't change him. His personality was just out there the entire time. He was quippy. He was kind of eclectic and eccentric, but yet he was just so hometown, Omaha, Nebraska. To me, that personality, I love. I think I love it not because of what his personality was, but the authenticity tied to it. Culturally, maybe even, I think if Warren Buffett and I were sitting there together, would we be similar or the same? Probably not. We probably would be opposite in a lot of areas, but I really value his authenticity and the ability to navigate life without ever allowing life to change him. To me, I like that. I like that leadership style. Then the second question was not just personality led, but it was a leader who led on principles. Yeah, there's so many great leaders that led on principles. I think that I obviously am a big coffee connoisseur. I really appreciate the character of Howard Schultz. Howard Schultz was this kind of, he's still eccentric. He's still an interesting guy, goes to Italy, sits in coffee shops, brings it back in the brand of Starbucks. What I love about what he built in Starbucks was he said, we're not necessarily selling coffee, we're selling an experience, then he built it. He said, there's three things that I want every person to experience coming in the coffee shop. Number one, he said, I wanted to walk in. I want you to smell the coffee. He said, I want to be a part of the experience. Number two, I want you to see. I want to feel like you walked into an old world Tuscan place where you get the experience that I got while I was in Italy. Number three, I want you to be greeted by a friendly barista. What I know is that in the rise of Starbucks, when they had their greatest years was when they adhered to that principle. Later on when they were more ran from a corporate governance body is when they started opening themselves up to all the licensing deals and they wanted to target and they wanted to public, they went all these, and you lost so much of what that was. And I think that now they're in a new phase with the new CEO who's really going back to some of those basics. So I do think that if you look at Starbucks, they had a massive rise, but they rose on principle, not personality. Do you have negative examples? The ones you are not necessarily favorite, but you can learn cautionary. Yeah, I would say one of the negative ones that I would look at would be a Herb Keller, where he actually built, I mean, he was the legendary Southwest Airlines CEO. But Herb was so eccentric and would do crazy things like Margarita. They would take breaks at three o'clock in the afternoon and all drink Margaritas and they just kind of have this crazy thing. And he gave that Southwest wackiness, like where a flight attendant could stand up and give their own version of the rules of flying and stuff like that. And Herb was kind of this eccentric guy. And what happened was, is Herb, I think, used his personality, that wackiness, that craziness, that let's do Margaritas at 3 p.m. that allowed Southwest to rise. But then once they actually found success, Southwest, I believe, stagnated because of the personality of Herb. Like I feel like he didn't allow his ego to get out of the way and they end up moving on and then Southwest does find success. But I feel like you see in there kind of rise, you find Herb bring them to the top, which a personality does. But then a personality that doesn't get out of the way, oftentimes then can stagnate it. And I feel like there's so many of those, I feel like you could go by the hundreds of those because it's why it needs to be cautioned to everybody is like, this is the natural thing. We kind of build our own empire. And then we think like, we're the central figure of the empire. Is that a more common story than way more common? Way more common. I'll move on to systems in just a moment. But as you're speaking, an example that comes to my mind is Silicon Valley pre Twitter, Silicon Valley post X. I feel like there was a, let's take yoga, let's do margarita. And then when X happened, it was like cut 40%. Everyone's coding for 90 hours a week. It is a different level. Elon's going to be an interesting one because Elon is a crazy personality. And we've yet to see it doesn't seem to be ego driven. He has an ego, strong ego. But what's going to be interesting is to see if Elon keeps going down this path. And if he begins to let go of Tesla and if Tesla, to me, the real story of whether Elon, because he's obviously built some big organizations and he's been involved in PayPal and all these others. If Tesla, who is built on the personality of Elon can actually go to the next level without Elon, I think is really going to be the test of whether Elon got out of the way or if it's a completely personality driven company. I think it's a proof of his systems. And then last but not least, I think you've already answered this, but maybe you could just dive a little deeper. Is there room for both in a leader personality and principle? And what does that look like? Yeah, I think that I think honestly, it needs to be both, you know, in this day and age, it's important, I think, to have the personality to lead. But again, it goes back to, it has to transition. You can build on the personality, the back of the personality. But at some point, once the personality cannot hold the weight of the organization, systems and processes have to hold the weight of the organization. And then they just become a benefit to the organization by that personality. They should be able to ride the, you know, the, the personality and the awareness of that personality, but shouldn't be reliant on it. And that's when those transition and succession plans are so vitally important. You know, it's important to understand, you know, you look at like a Walt Disney world, and it's like that was built on a man's personality. It was not only a personality, it was the persona of him. And he did such a great job. But again, it goes back to, I mean, Walt oftentimes turned to his brother Roy, and would give so many accolades to him for building all the systems and processes and being the backbone of Disney. And they used his personality as long as it made sense. But then he literally transitioned it into the personality of a mouse. I mean, it's like, it's pretty crazy how you look at the succession planning of Disney. And it was like, how do you take the whole world's focus off of a man? And what they did was they put it on a mouse. And now the mouse became this inanimate object that could stand the test of time. And they did it in a brilliant, brilliant way. I love that. Great analogy. All right. For systems. First question that came to my mind is, why are people so quick to undermine the brilliance of the US Empire? Is something you mentioned? Yeah. Because oftentimes we look at the US Empire, and because we're so close to it. So I think if you were to go back to the end of the Roman Empire, or maybe even the, you're going to find people that have dissent there, right? Like they conquered lands, they overthrew other empires, there's going to be a negativity. So looking back at it, at it through the lens of history, we can find all the good in it. It's like, we can even look at people like Alexander the Great and be like, wow, that was a great leader. It's like, no, Alexander was vicious and brutal and slaughtered lots of people. You know, it's like, but you can look back over time. And part of it is just the American empires were so close. And we haven't seen how it turns out yet. You know, so it's like, we're relatively young. You know, we're hundreds of years old, not thousands of years old. And so I think that while we look at it is remarkable what we've accomplished, what we've done, what we've brought into the world, how we service the world, which I think is all amazing. But an empire is not one that is a short window. It stands the test of time. And the question is, is can the American Empire stand the test of time? Right? Like how long will it last? Can it last? Can it be can it outlast something like the Roman Empire? So maybe a lack of perspective is my dad said he went to DC and he was getting coffee and he was just hanging out. And he was watching a ton of just young energetic people going back and forth. I know you spent time in Washington. I don't know. Do you have any general feelings about like yeah, systems and principles in Washington? Yeah. Washington is remarkable. I spent a lot of time there. I sat on a subcommittee for finance, spent a lot of time there with our legislators, lots of time behind closed doors. And what I see is there's two sides of Washington. In DC, you have the face, you have the personality of DC, you have all the individual personalities, you have senators that represent their state and you have congressmen that represent their state and their regions. And they have to hold a persona. But I'll tell you that most of the time, when the doors close, most of them are back to just being who they are. I won't give their names, but I sat on a subcommittee for finance. And so in kind of the committees, you have both sides of the aisle represented. And I was in the Russell building. And so you obviously senators and you'd walk in and you'd have CNBC and Fox News and they'd all be like kind of standing there and giving their commentary. They'd be getting asked questions. And then we would go in so, you know, and you'd hear these senators hyper, hyper critical of the other senator, right? So like hyper, like just calling them out like on Fox News or CNBC or, you know, CNN. And then we'd walk into it. But those who they just called out is now in that room. Doors close and you get to work. And what was interesting was there's this one senator from Ohio and one senator from Idaho who would just go at each other. And I would walk in and the senator from Idaho and the senator from Ohio would sit down. They kind of shake it all off, they'd get into it. And then then they'd start asking questions like, So how's your kids? How you been? It's like, it was this, this crazy experience of personality versus principle. And what I realized in DC was there's an underlying system and underlying principle that everyone adheres to, you know, one of the most contentious times we've seen in our nation's history was January 6th, a few years ago, when the power transferred from, you know, Trump to Biden. And the thing that was unsettling about that was we were going against the very system of changing power. And, you know, so no matter where you sit on that story, you know, was it election fraud, was it overreach, whatever it is, the scary part about it was not that the scary part about it was as we had a period of time where we were questioning, do we follow the system? Right. And the system is the most important thing. I love that. Yeah. That makes sense. So principles, systems, adaptability. This one, my question is, I wanted to push you for an example in your life where, and you've probably touched on this previous, what you were required to employ adaptability. When you are an organization and it has been built on your ideas, you kind of start thinking that if you go away from your ideas, that the organization is going to fail. I've had so many people, I've, man, there's so many examples in my own life, my own organizations. Let's do an episode on it. Yeah, I could do a full episode on it, but it's like, in adaptability, you know, I'll give you, I'll give you a really good one real quick. So the American Association of Private Lenders, I walked into that organization, it was already, you know, essentially we were building it, it was growing, it had some kind of good old boy type leadership. Guys that were in the lending industry. And I saw they were leading it in this way that it was very much like it's a culturally, I hated it because it was a good old boy network, it was us for no more type mentality. And I saw this spreadsheet, I asked him where we headed as an organization guys, like what are we doing? I wasn't leading it, but someone else is leading it, I just had small ownership in it. And I said, guys, where are we going? And they gave me a spreadsheet of KPIs and, you know, kind of directives. And I said, who created these? This is really good, who created these? And one of them took credit for it. And I said, you did this. And so I started asking questions and very quickly I realized like he didn't create it. So we get out of that meeting, I start walking around the office, there's four or five, maybe seven people employed at that time for AAPL. And I'm asking who created this, who created this? And I find a woman in the back corner that's kind of been like isolated. And finally, I was pointed to her, her name is Linda. And I said, Linda, did you create this? She said, yeah, I said, why did you create this? She said, I just felt like we were not going in a direction. And I thought, well, maybe I could just at least show like some steps to get to where they wanted to go. She was like, I just made a guess of maybe where you guys want to go. And here's the steps to do it. I said, or I say, said, how did that get received? She said, well, not well, she's like, but it must have been presented if you're standing here with it. And I said, yeah, because I was asking, what are the steps to get to where we want to go? And she said, yeah, she said, if you walk out of here with that sheet, and we don't enforce it, she said, we're still not going to go anywhere. She was like that. She was like, I'm so frustrated because like we're not. And I said, well, what do you think is missing? She was like systems and processes, she said, a systematic way to get there. She was like, you know, all of us don't actually know exactly where we're headed. And because we don't know exactly where we're headed, we don't even know the right steps to get there. She was like, I'd love for somebody just to give vision. And she was like, and then let's build the steps to get there. I said, do you think you're capable? She was like, not capable of the vision. She said, I'm capable of building the path they get there and executing. I said, okay, fair enough. But then the next 30 days, I'd fired everyone, except for her, the marketing girl and a salesperson. And today, Linda is the president, and I'm the chairman of the American Association of Private Lenders. Linda is the president. It's the largest organization of its kind. It's the largest aggregation of private capital in the world. The American Association of Private Lenders has had massive impact on legislation, on all kinds of systems and processes in the lending world and the private lending world. And there's billions and billions and billions of dollars flowing through that industry now. Linda, I adapted to what she believed was best about the organization versus me just kind of holding my ego of like, well, we built it and this where we're headed. And Linda still, she takes my vision, but in the end, Linda executes and she builds the path. And to me, it was one of those great moments where allowing and adapting to the people and their abilities around you allowed me to have the success I wanted. I could have out of ego just said, well, we're building it and just keep doing your job and stuff like that. But it was one of those moments where, and I had a lot of people mad at me. I fired some people that really believed that, you know, and what I did was I removed all ego out of the organization and I removed the ego out of the organization, then we actually adapted to the principles and systems that I knew would find success, but then we just executed on them. Now it's an amazing organization. There's a part of the end of that story. Well, first of all, love it. I think I learned, you solidify what you're saying through stories so well. So I appreciate it. There's a part in the end of that story where it's like, oh, this almost seems counterintuitive, where like adaptability feels like you're getting rid of systems. But then it's like, okay, so there must be two types of systems and there's probably more, but there's systems that are built on principle or truth. So these systems work and then there's systems that are built on ego. Because so many times you get into a place and you're like, well, why do we do this? Because that's how we do it. Because I said so. Yeah, right. But why? Yeah, exactly. Very interesting. Two questions. First one, what is the antidote to a glorie centric leader? And then the other one, if you build something that allows, at last you, it feels counterintuitive. The better I do my job, the more irrelevant I become. It's not a question that's a thought. So any of those? Oh, every one of those are really good. And I always say that I'll kind of just jump off on this. That point you just made on the better I do my job, the more irrelevant I become. But the not, but it doesn't, here's the problem is that like we think that irrelevance means insignificance. And it doesn't, the more irrelevant you are, the more significance you gain. And so while, you know, the pads on the back and the accolades are intoxicating, you have to play for something bigger. And so in legacy, when you're trying to build an organization that lasts, you don't have to become insignificant. Think about it as Phil Knight insignificant. No, he's the person who, who landed the deal with Michael Jordan. He's, you know, the guy who stepped outside of converse. And it's just like, it's crazy, you know, what he's built. So he's not insignificant, but he might be irrelevant today. You know, like they don't, Nike doesn't need him to be the organization. So I think it's, it's a natural path of leaving the kind of short term dopamine hits that we get that make us feel great, those pads on the back, and moving into this like long term of going like, I'm okay with making myself irrelevant. But in that, I'm making myself significant. You don't have to put it all away. It's just an exchange, right? Think about what Marcus Reilias did. Think about what, you know, some of these great Roman leaders did. They, they, they're not insignificant. No, they're a, they're amazing piece along that pathway. They just became irrelevant, not needed, you know, not, and that, that's a great thing. The more you can create yourself a path to a relevance in your business, the better you are doing it, your job. Any of the social media channels.