2849: Are Deadlifts Actually Dangerous? The Truth About So Called Risky Exercises

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Did you hear the interview not that long ago? Who was interviewing Robert Obras? Rogan, right? No, no, no. That's when he originally said it. So he originally said it on Rogan, but then somebody, oh, I want to say it's, was Eddie Hall? Eddie Hall, yeah. It was like, yeah, buddy Eddie Hall, who's another strong man. And they were kind of like going back and forth on live or FaceTime or whatever. But yeah. So he, yeah, and that one's pretty nuanced, but it's, you know, he was trying to make the case that the risk really wasn't worth the squeeze for your average person to do deadlifts. So it's interesting you're right guys brought a deadlift because that's the exercise. I just, I'll pull up what I read. That's the most controversial. That got me, there's a lot of exercises that there's even, there's exercises trainers, so they don't even do these. At least deadlifts. Some people will do them, but that's the exercise that prompted, you know, this topic. Cause so there was a narrative review that was published in the Journal of Sports and it was a 2026 one and it was titled Beyond the Neutral Spine and it really reignited this kind of heated debate around the deadlift and the research cited in the sports medicine publications confirms that approximately 73%, which by the way, I want to know how they got this number, but anyway, 73% of recreational gym goers demonstrate notable lumbar flexion when deadlifting under load. And the conventional deadlift places compressive forces on the lumbar spine that can reach eight to 10 times body weight at peak load. Sounds really scary. Then you got people like Dr. Stuart McGill. He's a spying biomechanics researcher and he argues that the deadlift requires near perfect technique to be for he performed safely by Jen Popp. And so he's like, let's avoid it or let's try other exercises. And of course then they, then they talk about how lower back injuries account for roughly 25% of all resistance training injuries. So I want to start by saying this that exercises don't hurt you. Okay. What hurts you is your inability to do them properly. That's it. So anything you do that hurts you anything. What ends up getting you hurt is that you just couldn't do it. Your body couldn't do what you asked it to generate force where you needed to generate force. It didn't have the ability to generate the force properly to stabilize properly. Stabilize it. You lack the mobility, the extensibility. You just, you were doing something whether because it was too much weight for what you could do or you didn't have the technique, you didn't have the skill, you didn't have the coordination, you didn't have the mobility. It's you that hurt you. It's not the exercise. And I don't know if taking that position though strengthens the argument to deadlift or not more. Well, I don't think that's the angle or the position I would take on this. I think that what happens is in where I could get behind Robert and Eddie when they were having that discussion is that I don't think at the level that they're they're lifting, it's worth it, unless you're going to win. From their perspective, I can kind of see. Yeah, I mean, and their whole extremity of it. Yeah, they're so strong. Yeah, and they're, and their whole, and their whole programming is designed to adding and lifting more and more and more and more and more and more competitive and chasing a PR. I think I would say there's a way to lift and never do less than five reps in the deadlift and never even attempt a PR and see tremendous. And then and then the the risk factor changes dramatically. If you're moving away, you can move five times. The likelihood that you're going to really injure yourself doing some, even if your technique isn't perfect, it dramatically goes down. Now you're trying to do singles and you don't and you know, go after a PR of a weight that you can only pull off the ground one time and you don't have perfect technique that you're talking about a huge difference in risks. See, I think it's important to talk about the potential risk of exercises so that people treat them the way that they're supposed to be treated. Here's the problem. Here's the real problem. The real problem isn't the the exercise or whatever. It's that people view workouts in general as their way to get tired, sweaty and sore. Yeah, I agree. Nobody views very few people, I should say, view exercises, movements and skills. Cycling is a skill. Running is a skill. Jumping is a skill. Throwing is a skill. Squatting, deadlifting. Squatting, deadlifting. A barbell, curl. They're all skills. But if I don't respect it as a skill and if I just look at an exercise and go, that's legs, that's back, that's shoulders. I'm just going to get those body parts tired. I completely disrespect the fact that it's a skill and I just do it to get tired. By the way, I'm just going to be very clear here. Do you know what activity leads to statistically the most injuries? What exercise type leads to the most injuries? Running. Running. Running. Running. You also want to know something else crazy? Humans were designed or evolved, whatever you believe, to run. We're actually made to run exceptionally well. We have big knee joints. We're on two legs. We have this really thick Achilles tendon. We have lots of muscle on the bottom of our foot. And when a human can run, when they possess the skill, they really possess the skill to run, humans can outlast almost any animal. It's actually one of the physical things we could do better than most animals. In fact, there used to be this race that they stopped doing a long time ago, but maybe Doug, you could look this up, where it would be a human versus a horse. And it wasn't for speed, it was for distance. 50% of the time or something like that, the human would win. Out and during the horse. Yeah, because we're really good at that. And yet it's the highest injury risk of all. It's the one exercise, like just from the couch, people are comfortable with just getting up and then just stepping into a run, because they feel like this is just an innate skill that we possess. So I love you coming at it from that position. Because then with that argument, it's, if you're going to throw out the deadlift, you may as well throw out running then too. Throw any, you could throw, like a barbell curl is a skill too. Yeah, but I mean, the difference is it doesn't require a skill. No, it doesn't require, okay, we could, because that doesn't, that doesn't, I know what you mean. Yeah, that doesn't connect, right? Or that doesn't track. But running is arguably as technical or more technical than the deadlift. Yet we encourage all kinds of people to do this. So if you can't say deadlifting isn't worth, isn't worth the reward. If we're looking at, we don't even qualify it like ahead of time. Like we're not like, you need to work with a coach, you need to make sure you have the proper mechanics, like the right form, like there's no like prerequisites, like that are pushed, as opposed to like a lot of these like compound lifts. There's another angle too, which is this is a very basic human movement that we should all be able to do a hinge to hinge. Pick something off the floor. Yeah, to hinge properly is a skill. We face it every day. We should all want to be figure out how to do to practice. And if all the, all these studies that come out or these arguments for the deadlift is high risk, it's like that that's not like a reason to not do it. It's a, it's a, man, that's sad that we've gotten to a place where hinging is so difficult for us to do. It's a reason to restosing. It's a reason to respect that it's a skill. Look, if we're going to base what exercises and movements we should do based off of the data on injury risk, then we would throw running out. Of course. One. So that's my whole point with the thing. I remember, I remember this hitting me like a ton of bricks years. I've told this story before. I haven't told it a long time, but years ago, so a long time ago, I don't know, it's 15, 17 years ago, something like that. I was hiking in the foothills down to south San Jose and I'm up there hiking. And in the foothills, people will hike or run. So it's not like a crazy trail. It's like a flat trail. So you'll see people running or hiking. And I was getting passed up by all these joggers. Now I'm a trainer and as a trainer, I can't help but notice biomechanics. Okay. So I'm watching people run and in my mind, I'm like, Oh my God, foot pronation. Oh gosh, that person's knees are going to hurt. Oh my God, excessive anterior pillow. And I just watch everybody running by and every single running person running by. I'm like, Oh God, that looks horrible. That looks hard. And they're just, you know, these are people trying to lose weight or whatever. And they're just running to fatigue. And then out of nowhere, this guy runs by and he's like a gazelle. Like he was this, you could, you could tell he's been practicing the skill of running. He's competitive. He's good at it. And he just coasted by and I'm watching him and I'm realizing how beautiful his technique was. And then I'm thinking to myself like, you know, hunter-gatherers, this is how we, this is how we killed animals. We didn't, we didn't work faster than animals. We throw something at them and then we run after them. So they bleed out. We're made to run. Why is it that this guy's, and I'm like, Oh, I know why. Here's what happens. Somebody hits the age of 35. Oh my God, I got to lose weight. Go buy some running shoes and I'm going to go run till I'm tired. And they're flat footed and nobody treats any other skill this way. If I don't, if I want to learn how to play golf, I don't go out, grab a golf club and swing as hard as I can until I'm tired. I'm the higher coach. I'll figure out my technique. And I know that it's a skill. Exercise is a skill. Strength training is a skill. It's not just the way to get tired. And if you respect it as such, here's what happens to your point, Adam, if you don't practice a skill and strengthen a skill, you lose it. So if, so right now, if you're listening right now and you haven't run a lot since you were 12, which is most people, you're running is going to suck. You're not running techniques. It'd be terrible. If you haven't thrown a baseball since you were in little league, go throw a ball really hard. See how your shoulder feels right afterwards. You've lost the skill. If you don't practice the skill of hinging or squatting or pressing or rowing, you'll lose it. Even the behind the neck exercises that even some certifications say don't do. Yeah. Super dangerous. Behind the neck press, behind the neck pull down. Your ability to articulate your shoulders in that position with the mobility and strength and or control that if you stop practicing that, you'll really lose it. So it's actually a good idea to practice and learn all these different skills and treat them with respect. And what will happen is you won't hurt yourself. I mean, this is a slippery slope towards Wally. You know, like it's like we agree. Oh, all the studies are showing the high risk of injury through deadlifting. So let's just eliminate that. Then what comes next? Yeah. Right. And then what comes next? I mean, if we, if we use that to steer us in what we should or shouldn't be doing as far as movements sooner or later, all the, all the studies will continue to point to this movement hurts us, this movement hurts us. And it's like, it's not a lack of that we shouldn't be doing that movement. It's a lack of we should be practicing that movement. So it doesn't hurt us. So this idea that, you know, deadlifts are bad for you or the day. I mean, listen, I admittedly, I didn't train them for a very long time and I didn't train clients on them, but it was because I was fearful of the skill. I didn't, I didn't feel I could coach it properly. And so I didn't teach my clients to do it. I was too embarrassed as a trainer to do it in the gym because I didn't think I had good technique. And at that time in my life, I didn't value enough to go hire someone to teach me and teach me to do it. It wasn't as popular as it is today where you could probably tap someone on the shoulder in the gym today and find someone. Nobody deadlifted. Nobody did in the gym. Have you worked at a gym like we did 20 something years in the 90s? Yeah. Nobody was deadlifted. I'd have members stop me and tell me, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. So it was, you know, so I understand why a lot of people avoid it. I did. But let me tell you, somebody who did and then, and then see the value of learning how to do it. Oh my god, it's such a important movement. Yeah, properly, progressively overloading. I mean, it prevents back pain. It prevents like a lot of these chronic pain and arthritis and issues down the road. So to, you know, like generalize everybody to steer away from something where people go to the extreme in excess, just like anything else. I mean, that's what pisses me off about our space is we, we, we need clicks and we need views and we need things that are shocking. And they're all generalizations. And it just steers people different directions that are harmful because, you know, we're implementing these specific types of exercises that are going to work well as a skill for your life. And it's like, there's a way to do that and introduce it with the proper amount of load where, you know, your body can withstand that. It's supposed to withstand that we have muscles for this. Like we have the, the gear, the equipment we were made for this. You just have to load it properly. You have to build the skill up and the strength to produce it and to generate force. And so yeah, you literally could go down the list. I mean, unless you're like slamming weights on your neck or something, like I, you know, there might be some value there. There's some of my favorite videos that were just for me as a trainer, paradigm shattering, where these old, you can find them on YouTube, old Soviet era wrestlers. So these were Greco-Roman wrestlers who were doing weight training exercises and they were doing exercises I'd never seen before. So I'm looking at it and I'm like, oh my God, what are they doing? This is crazy. And then I'm like, wait a minute, these are like the winiest athletes of all time back then. This is when I learned about the Jefferson deadlift. Listen, you want to watch something that makes you cringe. Like what are you doing? Like the way you're not supposed to do a Jefferson deadlift. Jefferson curl. Now these guys were doing this because when you're a wrestler, you're picking someone up the floor. You're not in this proper looking perfect, whatever. You're very rounded. So they had to strengthen that position to prevent injury during competition. And you're moving weight. Yes. It's not a barbell. It's not a barbell. It's not stationary. It's the guy that's like resisting you. That's right. And you're in that precarious position. Like tell me, you know, tell me, like that's like not valuable. The risk of injury goes up. When the, when the demands start to get close to your limits of what you can handle. That's right. This is why, you know, the risk starts to the risk versus what here's where risk versus reward becomes an issue. You're really freaking strong. Okay. So if you're a guy, yes, and you're deadlifting and you've been training for five years and you weigh 180 pounds and you, you're like at a 450 pound deadlift, which is like, you're really strong dude. If you're 180 pounds, you're pulling 450 off the floor. You're a very strong guy. Now at that point, you're like, okay, is adding 50 more pounds to my deadlift going to do much more for my quality of life or building muscle? Is it worth going up 50 pounds? No, it's not. But you get a 180 pound guy who can deadlift 100 pounds and you get him to go up to 200 pounds. The reward is phenomenal. Quality of life goes through the roof. Stability around his spine is incredible. He notices it every day far more than the guy who went for 450, 500 times. Well, not to mention too, there's, there's several ways. I mean, we did a whole episode, I think there would be the nine ways to progressively overload the body. And you don't have to just do more weight on the bar too. We can slow down the tempo. You could do isometrics and pauses. Like there's, there's so many things that you do variations where I do a sumo deadlift and then I do a conventional like single leg. Yeah. Or single. There's so many things that we can do to challenge and progressively overload the body to see continued progression in that movement and get better at the skill before we increase the risk by going, Hey, let's slap 250, 300, 400 on the bar. It's like, how about I stay at 135, but now I'll do single leg or I'll pause or I'll do an isometric hold like so many things you can do. Here's the proper comparison. Cause then if we go down that rationale of like dangerous exercises, then the rationale logically with that rationale would lead you to machines. Okay. If I follow that rationale, then what I'm going to do is go, I'm going to say, okay, well I'm only going to do machines. It's controlled. It's on a track. It ain't going to get out of place. But I'm going to give you, here's a proper comparison. If you took two people identical situations, both of them training properly. Okay. So good technique, doing what their body can handle, good mobility, good stability. One person's doing the quote, unquote dangerous exercises. And the other person's doing the quote, unquote safe machine exercises. And you have them live their life for the whole life. The person with the higher rate of injury in life is the machine person. Yeah. They're less strong in ways that you need to protect yourself in everyday life. Cause here's what happens in every night. I'm walking and my foot goes off the curb or my kid jumps over here and I got to reach and grab them. We're going to twist and grab this thing or my five year old jumps on my neck when I'm sitting on the couch in a particular way. Like you want, you're carrying shifts. There's a joint stability component to lifting free weights. That you, you don't get with the machine. That's right. It's on a track. It's stabilized for you. That's right. And so there's tremendous value to a weight on a barbell or a dumbbell that can move freely. And all those stabilizer joint or all those stabilizer muscles have to stabilize that movement that is incredibly valuable that you, you miss out on if you do that. Yeah. No, it's a, it's a really slippery slope to go down and eliminate a movement, especially a movement like that. It's like we could do without bicep curls. You can a hundred percent do without bicep curls. That's so funny. You know what I'm saying? But you guys both look at me right then. No, it's, it's true. You can still do it every now and then. You can, but you can. You can literally never do a bicep curl. Absolutely. If you're doing pull ups and dead lifts and everything like that, you're fine. You can never do a bicep. We could do without a certain exercise, but there's certain ones we, I just lose a lot. An overhead press, a barbell squat, a barbell deadlift, the row, these movements are so important for everyday life. Yes. For the way we, we will move throughout the rest of our life for the rest of our life and to eliminate one of those, because of the risk factor is just ridiculous. You know, my favorite example of this is, and we have the person here who can confirm this, Doug hired me because of back pain. Yeah. Doug went to a chiropractor. I have so many stories of clients. I know. Low back pain and then deadlifting is what made them not have to go back every time. Let me tell the story for me. He had repeated back injuries. It just kept going out. And he goes in a chiropractor who I had started working with was like, go see this trainer. He knows what he's doing. So Doug, who had back problems, whereas back kept going out, started training with me and we trained properly and appropriately, eventually got him to do a 405 pound deadlift at a body weight of what? Probably 153 or five. That's an incredible strength to weight ratio. Does your back go out anymore? Has been a very long time, knock on wood, but no, it doesn't. It used to go out all the time. Yeah. And that's an example. Well, I've shared in the deadlift. I've shared on the podcast before deadlifting and barbell squatting. I had chronic low back pain. That's what got rid of it. Yeah. I mean, the irony of that. Right. Like as a young man, by the way, like I had low back chronic pain, like chronic low back pain. And you know what this is? Learning how to squat and deadlift. Well, you're strong everywhere else too. That's right. Yeah. It wasn't like you weren't working out. Easy, susceptible. Yeah. You were a muscular bodybuilder. Yes. And it wasn't until I started doing that. I mean, the, listen to the core strength required to stabilize the barbell when you're doing a dead lifter is so incredibly important and valuable too. So, and getting good at that skill forces you to do that. And that was that alone right there. And as long as I maintain that, and I notice a difference when I have these spells where I'll go on a kick for a while and I won't deadlift or squat for a little while. And that very first thing that always motivates me to get back to lifting is I'll start to notice low back fatigue. I'll sit on a plane for an hour and it's like, oh my God, my little bar, I'll drive someone over like, and I always know it's like, God, damn it. I haven't been squatting or deadlifting. And if I'm, if I'm, if that's consistently in my routine, I don't have chronic low back pain. You know what it is? You know what this conversation is? It's, it's lazy. This is the conversation. Hey, we're not even attempt to teach you or talk about why we're just to say, don't do it. Cause we're too lazy to explain it to you. We're too lazy to communicate it properly. And to be quite honest, we think you're too lazy to do it the right way. So just avoid it. You guys just, just skip it, put caution tape around it and move on. Yeah. I move on. And it's like, no, that's not the proper, that's not the proper. It's just, I think it frustrates me because I would be okay with that with a lot. There's probably a hundred exercises you could convince me that you could do without. It's one of the ones that are the most yeah. It's one of the ones. If there's only a handful, there's less than a handful of movements that like, I feel like don't lose this. Yeah, exactly. Do not lose this skill to be able to do this. That would be, that's one of them. So it's like, get rid of, there's a lot of shit that we can get rid of that. It's like, yeah, you know, not a big deal if you don't do that. Or if we do this, it gets, it takes care of that. Like there's not a lot of stuff. There's not a lot of stuff that replaces the deadlift. And I'm okay with variations. Like if you're not, if the skill isn't there to do a barbell deadlift, then we trap our deadlift. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And we work towards that. You work towards it. You know, or, or we do single leg. Like you said. You had my 70 plus year old clients deadlifting, all of them, every single one. We didn't start deadlifting, but it was like, you probably started with a single leg toe touch, which is where I started. And I would start them off on a rack and it was barely bending over. And eventually I got them to do full on deadlifts. And every single one of them was like, I can't believe how good my back feels. Yeah. This is incredible. Yeah. Anyway, we're going to change subjects off air, Adam. I love, I love the things that Adam gets passionate about. You're talking about my soap. Yeah. Dude, listen, listen, first of all, first of all, how are you still doing like three showers a day? I mean, I always have been that guy. But I, so we had, we had Cal there lab today and the, and we just raving about the, we talk about all the stuff that other stuff is great, but their skin stuff. Yeah. It's amazing. But their soap is one of my, like once I converted over to using soap, I've never used, I don't know how many years now it's been. I've never used another soap. It's the, the best bar so ever. And I just can't believe you guys haven't got on board as, as, because it's a, it's the lather you keep raving about. It's just this really thick, like, and I know, and I know your argument back to that is like, you know, that the lather has nothing to do with the experience. It is. You're such an experienced guy with your bath bathing. There is. And I am very aware of the, I'm aware of the shampoo game. I'm aware of the soap game. I'm aware of the toothpaste game. Are you smiling when you take a shower? Are you like, yes. To lather up and see myself, you know, you know, would make a nice little like bubble hat, like little kids, you know, it would be like the ultimate, like if you could sell Justin, because I for sure, I guarantee you Justin uses dish soap. I guarantee he just uses diesel fuel or whatever that that's there. Whatever that like shop soap is that you use to get greased off. That's the orange. It's like sandpaper. Well, I've, I've, so I've before Caldera lab, I've, I've purchased like your, you know, organic goods, like homemade soaps and stuff like that. And I, and I'd like, I like those. In fact, we see, although the ridiculous expensive when you buy like that, which is just I, I've liked, but the one thing I've never liked about them is I feel like I'm scrubbing on my skin and I can't see any lather whatsoever. So I've always wanted the best of both words. And I know that a lot of the crap, the crappy stuff that's got all the chemicals in the bullshit to make the lather is that no Caldera lab. So here's a question I want to ask you because you're also, you also have sensitive skin because your psoriasis. And I know Caldera lab, like doesn't drive me out. I was just going to say, because one of the things that they, what they focus on is, does this work with your skin? Does it balance out the microbiome? Or does it just strip your body or whatever? So you, you, you say no, it doesn't make it. No, no, it does not drive me out at all. All right, good. I know it's like dermatologists tested and it's all plant based and so it's all natural, but that's what blows my mind is I've, for the first time, I've tried all kinds of natural soaps. Like I said, I've never had one that lathers the way that does and it lathers better than any chemical soap that I tried in the past. And so to me, it's like, I don't know how that doesn't, doesn't fire you guys up the same way. And I'm like, what do you use, Sal? Like, what do you have? Like, what? I mean, I've never even heard you talk about what you, what do you, I don't, I don't, I don't think you wash your body. I don't think you wash your body. I don't. I'm convinced. That's why you're oily. I'm supposed to be oily. My skin makes natural. I think you use that. I think you use that as like a pull the race card. But you're saying, here's why I don't talk about it. I've never been in a conversation. You're the only man I've ever met my entire life who in full on conversation with dudes is like, Hey, I took a bath yesterday, the soap. Like, and I'm like, part of me is kind of like, I'm weird. That's bold. What are we talking about here? It's a bold move. So that's why I never brought it up. Yeah, I use soap, dude, but I'll get some of the caldera lab anyway. I'm going to change directions again. Dude, there's a study that's going viral right now. I'm going to bring it up on a male versus female concussion. Have you heard of that? Have you heard of this? Okay, no, I have it. Okay. So this is crazy. So, so here's what the, what the article says, as long as we win. Cool. You didn't throw that in there. Women or girls are up to twice as likely to suffer concussions as their male counterparts when playing the same sports under the same rules, various, various studies show. Because we have thick skulls. By the way, by the way, the reason why this is crazy is because the force at which men hit each other or, or hit the soccer ball or whatever is so much higher. Yeah. So you would expect men to have higher rates. Is that thicker skulls? No. It's because that the way that our brains work and the way they handle impact and the way they handle inflammation, it seems to be a lot better in men than it is in women. And so they're finding that there's those differences make a big difference. Well, I wouldn't even think that I said that, but I wouldn't even think that thick skull would would help because it's really shakes the brain. Yeah, your brain, your brain slamming to the inside of your skull. Anyways, no, it's neck muscles, brain, micro architecture and the menstrual cycle. You know what's funny about this? It's like we evolved to battle in wars. Yeah. Here's the deal. It's not neck muscles. Some biology there. Although strong necks definitely can help. You know, when you have two professional soccer player men hitting the ball or running into each other or any other sport or boxers, the force at which we hit each other is so much higher that it doesn't make up the difference. It's it's it's the brain micro architecture. And so they're like, you know, probably because we evolved with more getting blasted. Just being a little more resilient to with that. Yeah, this is important to know though with sports. Yeah. It's funny because my my daughter plays lacrosse. Is that the one she plays lacrosse? And I know in women's lacrosse, they're not allowed to hit each other yet like men's lacrosse. No. And and I think some people would look at that like what's the difference? Let me think it's I didn't know that. Yeah, different rules. Yeah, they're not allowed to like physically. So in men's lacrosse, what is it? What are the rules? How can you guys like hockey? Yeah, it's just like hockey. I mean, and you could stick check but it's like you can't actively like hit above the head and run into each other. Oh, yeah. You can check you can use your fighting. You can use your stick. Yeah, see the girls are allowed to do that. Yeah. If you start doing that, though, you get shoulder in. I mean, they're wearing pads. So it's, you know, it's all fair game. But yeah, I don't think the women wear like shoulder pads. No, they were so yeah, it's just helmet and maybe like a glove. That's right. Oh, they don't huh? Yeah, because they can they can check at the stick where the hands are that they can't like body. So I can get this ball I can get the ball out of your stick with my stick. Yeah, unless I'm doing this wild swing. I think it is like this overhead, then they'll call it. Yeah. But if you check each other, because I've seen this my daughter plays and they'll sometimes they'll blow the whistle and dig it. And they won't let them. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I was I was under the impression it was the exact same rules as hockey. No. And hockey allows the shoulder full. You can do a check you can do you can't when you can't do is check in the back and hockey hockey. You cannot have a guy turned around and check him in his back but squared up. You can you can check him the high stick. Yeah, yeah, it's encouraged. Yeah, if you're like a tomahawk, yeah, you can't you can't lift a stick above their head and come down so that that that'd be high. So this brings up another question is that because there was this there was this article that everybody is so funny when I every time I saw this article posted, I read the comments and like, thank God nobody's buying this crap. It was the one that said that gender differences don't matter if the man transitions and then he plays sports with women, the performance of they're trying to make this crazy argument that nobody believed in none of the data actually supports. We've moved on to that. Haven't we? There's there's still goes against biological science. And I'm like, you know what, different brain architecture. Okay, so now we're all playing the same sport. We're boxing and I'm a dude but I transition. We're going to punch each other in the head. There's a difference. Yeah, there's a difference with with how that affects us. Safety is a safety difference. Yeah, you bring up boxing. You're so interesting. I just last night my uncle was brought this up to me. Did you when Muhammad Ali died? Did you know who did his eulogy? No, Billy Crystal. Oh, I didn't know they were like super close friends. Oh, weird. Yeah, I had no idea. I watched it on YouTube. It was actually really good. If you have any time to look up Billy Crystal does Muhammad Ali's eulogy. Yeah, totally random. I had no idea. So I like he got his big break from Muhammad Ali. Another comedian couldn't come through. They were doing some award ceremony or something for Muhammad Ali. It was when and Billy Crystal was like an unknown. Wow, really? Yeah, yeah, unknown. Somebody fell through. He happened to have a bit that he used to do. Even though he was unknown, like and so he's like, hey, this someone recommended Muhammad Ali is one of my favorite. I love old box. I don't watch boxing anymore, but I like old boxing. He's one of my favorites of all he does this great thing. So I watched this first, then I went down the rabbit hole a little bit. Then the next thing I watched was he does a he did this tribute when he was being I think inducted to the Hall of Fame or something. He was still alive and it was called 15 rounds. So Billy if you look up Billy Crystal 15 rounds of Muhammad Ali and he does a full on impression and it's 15 rounds long and it's his life. It's really good. Wow. And he plays and he he he imitates a famous sportscaster and Muhammad Ali. And so he does both the voices and it's a story of his his life and his fights. Have you ever seen the interview where Mike Tyson is on Arsenio Hall? This will bait me a little bit. It's an old talk show and Arsenio Hall, I think is this when he gets Mike says something to him about being close to him or something like that? No, that's a different one. No, that was with was that P Diddy was next to him? He did. He picked up his hand and moved it over. He was like trying to put his hand on it. Yeah. No, but he asked Muhammad Ali. Sorry, he asked my Tyson, how would you do if you fought Muhammad Ali and the reverence he had for Muhammad Ali and Tyson doesn't like you ask me to fight anybody, especially back then, he'd be like, I'll kill him. Yeah. But he was like, oh, he's the greatest of all time. He had such a reverence. He was there. He was there at that event till you see him in the crowd when they do it. But yeah, it was a worthwhile watch. I thought it was really, you know what Muhammad Ali kind of pioneered in boxing or in all fight sports. Do you guys know what he pioneered? Because obviously he was great. He was talking. Yeah, of course. Nobody did it. He was the ultimate hype man. No, he was the greatest. Yeah. I mean, that's what I came for. He backed it up. That's the thing. You can't like have that bravado and not back it up. That was his strategy against Sunny Liston. You know that right? So Sunny Liston was dangerous and scary. And Muhammad Ali knew that if he got in his head that he would just mess with him. We did the psychological war. And he just pissed them off so bad that Sunny Liston was off. Yeah. Do yourself a favor and watch that. It's only like a, it's like maybe 10 minutes or so. It's a short little watch, but super worth it. It was so well. I had no idea about that. You know, we missed this prime, right? We never got to see the best of Muhammad Ali ever. I know it was in three years. He was in prison. Yeah. Cause he would go to, I mean, you could argue that about Tyson too, right? Both him and Tyson spent there, some of their prime years of boxing in prison. Yeah. Well, Tyson did something. Well, I know. I'm not saying one of them was a little less. Yeah. I'm saying that we missed out two of the greatest fighters of all time. We missed out on some of their, their greatest years of boxing. If you're boxing, if you, if you, you never watched his Frasier fights, man, that is a war. Just watch those fights. They're super awesome. All right. I got this other study that's really interesting. So there was a study that was done asking women questions about attractiveness. So here's what the, the, the title of the study says, hues of upper body strength account for most of the variants in men's bodily attractiveness. In other words, perceived strength accounted for or explained over 70% of the variants and male bodily attractiveness. What do you mean by that? So when they're looking at bodies, which one's more attractive? Yeah. That was the terminator. 70% of it was perceived strength, which that's like the vast majority of it. Right. It wasn't anything else. It was like, for the most part, not just your good-looking face. It was just literally like, he looks stronger, which is why it's more attractive. Where the, where the, the beach muscle training came from. She was just hit chest and arms. Going all in on that. That's it. That's it. She ain't seen my back. She don't know what a strong back looks like. Just chest and arms. Go live some weights if you want to increase your attractive list level and make more money. That's the other one. I don't think they talked about that. I mean, you know, you know me. I used to joke about that all the time about being all show at no go. Right. Just no girls ever asked me how much I bench press when I took my shirt off. As long as I looked like I bench pressed, that's what mattered. I was, I was watching this, I don't remember how I got, it was like on my algorithm. And this woman was sharing how, uh, how unattractive it was. She was on it. She was with this guy and I forgot, I should have shown my wife this because I'm like, is this true? She's like, she was talking about how she was with this guy and she saw him do something that every man in her life that she knew was good at, but she saw him and he was bad at it and immediately made her like not attractive to him. What was that? I feel like you said, did you share this before? No, but I was thinking about this. Like if you grew up with like, like, like dudes that could like fix things around the house, like dad is good at it. My brother's good at it. Then you get with this guy and then you see him swing a hammer and he's just like, does nobody do it? That would make you go, oh, yeah. I thought that, I thought I saw something like that, but it was like, uh, that's why I won't do housework. Oh, you know what it was? I shared this a long time ago. There was a funny clip. Okay. There's this great clip. I shared this on social media. Someone made this, this fun. It's a, it's a guy and a girl and they're walking on the, on the, uh, sidewalk together and they're holding hands and, you know, and she's like looking at them and it's like, you could tell that they're in love and stuff like that. And it's like, I got some funny music going or whatever. And all of a sudden, uh, a ball, like some two guys were like throwing a football on the street and it lands at his feet. Yeah. And, uh, and the guys like, they make a hundred and you like a head and not like that. Yeah. Like, and he looks at it and he picks it up and he's like, yeah. And she's like, yeah. Like it's his right hand was holding her hand. Yeah. Yeah. And he like, he throws it. It's like this, don't do that terrible throw. And the chicks like, just kick it dude. Like at that moment, just let go of her hand and throw the ball. That's the real mood. The try to throw with your life. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I was such a great club. I was talking to, I won't say too much. I won't call him out, but a friend, a family member and she was talking about how, um, she started dating, uh, this kid, this guy, so they're younger and, uh, she told me this like huge green flag. So they were walking green flag. It's a green flag. Okay. So they were walking and she goes, and we were walking on the sidewalk and I was on the outside towards the road. He was on the inside and he switched. He made me go on the inside. Oh yeah. And I'm like, that's, that's, that's good. Old school silver. Yeah. I'm like, he knew that. He knew that. That's great. Appreciate it. Anyway, um, I want to talk about Ashwa Ganda because, um, it's the, one of the main ingredients and organifies green juice. I have a friend of mine who has a high stress, valuable job, uh, does this, this saves lives basically. And, um, it's just his job. He tries to do everything he can to manage his stress, but he's often tired and stuff just because of the, the nature of his job. He does emergency work. And so it's just, it's just stressful job. He's been doing it for a long time. He's good at it. And so he was like asking me like, what are things that can do that'll help. So of course, we talked about, you know, diet, exercise, uh, we talked about sleep. And those are things that he's aware of. And he's like, are there supplements that can help? And I'm like, the one with all the data, uh, is Ashwa Ganda. And so he's a, he's a smart guy. So he looked up the data. He comes back and said, I can't, I can't believe I'm not from, I wasn't familiar with this. Yeah. So he started using it, uh, regularly. Um, and a couple of weeks later, he's like, I can't believe, I can't believe nobody told me about, uh, Ashwa Ganda. He's like, it feels like life changing for me. Do you think that's the main thing in the green juice that people comment? Cause it gets obviously, I mean, it was for the longest time, I don't even know if it still is or not, but for the longest time it's been organized, flagship product. I mean, that's what put them on the map. Um, I remember our first experience with it up at that point, every green juice site tasted, tasted like crap. It tasted amazing. It felt good. Normal green juices taste like, uh, like if you mowed the lawn and then juiced it. Yeah. Disgusting. And so, you know, it's obviously gotten tremendous reviews for such a long time. Do you think it's the Ashwa Ganda that is the main, it has a lot of it. It has a lot of good things in it. So it's better than just taking Ashwa Ganda cause Ashwa Ganda is great. It's one of the many greens. Uh, but it also has, um, the micro greens in there, things like Clarella, spirulina and other things that when you grind them up enough and you make them bio available, they just have all these benefits. They have all these digestive health benefits, anti-inflammatory benefits. They help with digestion. Uh, it just feels good. So it's like one of those like, can I improve? Is there a supplement I can take that will improve my body's ability to handle stress? That's also good for me. Um, and of course this is a supplement so it doesn't replace diet, sleep and exercise. It's like, yeah, green juice, green juice. Take that regularly. Yeah, I always say it was a deficiency thing, but I think it is too. It's the calming of it like with the stress management of it for sure. Totally. That's what I noticed at the most. Yeah. When I like to use green juice, the most is when I'm traveling cause I just travel messes me up. But if I'm traveling for the show, yeah, my sleep is off, airplanes, I have like, I get motion sickness easy. So I'll get off the plane. I always feel kind of weird. And if I do the green juice, uh, you know, it makes a big difference. Do you have any flights coming up? Are you flying anywhere anytime soon? Uh, we were talking about Arizona one. Well, yeah, we are going to Arizona. What is that? Is that the passenger address? That's in June. Yeah. I fly before that. I got Miami. Dude, that'll be the big, that'll be the, the, the, the biggest talk I've done for my pump for in terms of length and amount of people. So last year when you did, so last year when you did talk, it wasn't the main stage. It was not the main stage last year. I thought it was. I thought it was. Was last year my second time. Okay. So I was on the main stage. Yeah. Cause the first year you weren't, you had such great feedback. They got such great feedback that he put you on it. Now the difference between the opener, now you're the opener. Yeah. So you were into a new place. Yeah. So you, you were, you were already though on the main stage. I mean, last year the crowd was, was big. Yeah. Yeah. This was, this is a longer talk. And again, it's longer. Yes. They want me to speak for 35 minutes, I think, which that's not really, I'm not worried about that. I could talk for a long time. 35 days. We're confident. Cause the last talk was 20 minutes. I remember being like, oh man, I gotta make sure I cover this. And as I'm talking, there's a timer and I started realizing like, I'm going to write a time. I better get through my slides. Yeah. Type of deal. So I'm excited. I'm excited for that. I mean, the fact that they rented like a whole place now, right? So they have, it's huge, bigger than the Vegas one they had, which that was huge. The whole peptide space is going crazy. It's insane. Yeah. Yes. It's getting so crazy. It's so interesting. Everybody there is a practitioner, most people, so people who use peptides in their practice. So you're looking at like doctors, nurse practitioners, wellness practitioners. So a lot of the talks are really technical, like newest peptides, combinations, how you can identify which ones your patients need, you know, that kind of deal. But of course I'm not talking, I'm not speaking of that. I'm going to speak to you. Did you watch that clip I sent you last night? Which one? You didn't. That's a no. It's the only one I sent you last night. Which one? It's the only one I sent you. Oh, I want you to look at that. I don't want to bring it up until you watch it because I want you to comment on it. It was our buddy's, Jordy, and his buddy, they were interviewing a pharma guy and a peptide bro. I was going to watch that. It's short, it's only like minutes. So it's not a long commitment. So you know what happens if I open a text and then it doesn't look like it's for me. Then you go, no, I don't know. He's trying to tell me to work. No, that's not what it is. If I open it, my ADD is so bad, right? And then I don't have the thing that says you should read it very quickly. I forget that it's there. So what I got to do, and I do this sometimes is I'll remark it as unwrapped. We see that you saw it and didn't read it. You're like, you're like, I got to hide the vegetables inside this. You say, I'm going to have to find ways to like lie about punk pancakes. Yeah. I'm going to sneak the things I need him to read or listen to into something else. So I got to figure it out. But I am excited to speak to people who are using peptides because I think the conversation around how to use GLPs is so important. Oh yeah. So we can't remove the fitness and the nutrition elements. Dude, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing more and more people lose weight successfully because that's what they do on a GLP and come out with other problems. Oh, I mean, look at our, look at our colors now. It's, it's, it's rare that we do a week of collars and not at least two or three of them are not used one of the GLP ones. I mean, it's, it's because now, and a lot of them had huge success. Like you said, losing, losing weight, but so many people are losing a ton of muscle at the same time. And so I mean, this is really, we've been having this, this conversation for well over a year now, almost two years when we, when we first started talking about it. And I know I was really early on, very pro. In fact, I used to argue for, I think the net, it's going to be net positive. So it's going to be awesome. I'm, I'm a back and forth now. Yeah. We've seen enough people. It's entirely dependent on the person they're approaching. That's right. It's entirely dependent on what else you do with it. And unfortunately, I don't have, from what I'm seeing, I've, I've lost faith in people. Yeah. So when I started, and I think this is recently for me, when I started to see it, you know, penetrate the circles of friends I had that I would have never guessed would be using it is when I went, Oh, wow. So it's, it's too cosmetic. The reasoning and really shouldn't be a reason to be on it. And, and I was, I was really hyped on it when I saw it with the people that were 300 pounds and struggled their whole life to lose weight. And it's like, this was it. And these people, this was like a huge, huge benefit to helping them quiet that noise and heading the, I mean, we've seen so many great success stories, success stories around that. As I started to see it introduced and being used by people I would never guessed and then how they were using it. I was like, Oh man, this is turning quickly. It's turning into anyone and everyone is like, Hey, this is a quick way to lose 10 pounds of people's baseline now. It's like, Oh yeah, I'm on this, but I'm also doing this. Yeah. I'll predict this right now. I predict we're going to come out of an obesity epidemic into a frailty epidemic. I agree. I think you're, I think you're right. Which brings me to another topic because what they're now doing, this is just, pharma does this, right? Big pharma does this because this is what they know to do. I don't necessarily think that there's bad intentions or evil, although sometimes I think that's, that's the case. But what they do is they, they'll come out with an intervention, then that intervention will cause other problems. And then they come out, their goal is to come out with an intervention to solve the problems at the first one. Cause this is just what they do. And so what you're seeing now is lots of money and research is beginning to pour into muscle building compounds and the direction they're going is myostatin inhibition. So, and we've known this for a long time. Like when you take an animal and you genetically modify them so that they're, you knock out the myostatin, they just build tons of muscle. It's like crazy amounts of muscle. Like it's silly how much muscle these animals build because they don't have this, um, this something called myostatin, which is essentially the brakes on muscle growth. So what they're doing is they're trying to come out with interventions that will inhibit myostatin because they're like, cool, we can combine this with a GLP. It'll solve the muscle issue, uh, because they lose muscle on there, but they won't because they're on this myostatin inhibitor, but I've been doing research on myostatin inhibitors, uh, interventions. So knock out, uh, animals where they genetically modify them is a little different than what they would do with people. Obviously they're not going to, you know, you've got your genetics. So they would have to, they would have to inhibit it, uh, through, different means. And I looked this up in the animal studies and here's some of the stuff that they end up finding in them, which is interesting. So when the animals build more muscle through myostatin inhibition, through an intervention, not genetically modified, but through an intervention, we see reduced muscle quality. Uh, and one of the things they notice is what's called lower mitochondrial density. In other words, uh, to put it differently, there is not a proportional increase in athletic performance and strength to the hypertrophy that they see. Right. Useless muscle. So, so they build all this more muscle and athletic performance doesn't catch up to it or doesn't match it. And so they actually become less, um, less, uh, uh, non-functional meat to an extent. And I would argue too, that this is a, um, we'll end up compounding too, because if you have somebody who cares just about aesthetics and this thing gives them the aesthetics that they want, why should I go to the gym and lift any more weights? I've already, I'm more, and so you'll lose the good quality muscle from the little bit of whatever training you might have done during this time, because now you have this intervention that gives you this kind of artificial looking muscle that's practically useless to you. I mean, this is a, we predicted this. You'll have obese muscle people. Yeah, exactly. Well, over a year ago, we were predicting this and we talked to Dr. Seedz about it. Yeah. And I remember him saying that this is, that would be good looking weak people. Um, but that's, it's like, it's like gaining 15 pounds of muscle, but you're not strong. But when I look at the people that are taking it to my point, those are the people that would want that who don't care. Well, my point would say like a big segment of people. Yeah. It's like, Oh, I look good. I mean, what a perfect, like, like plastic surgery. What a, what a perfect segue. How you start, you, you perceived strength is what is the, that's all people care is that I look stronger and fitter. Right. And so I don't care if I have less or more mitochondrial health. I don't care if I can, do you know what happens when I look like I can, do you know what happens if you're heavier and you're not stronger? You're worse. Yeah. You're just heavier. It's more stress. More stress is add up. Yeah. So, so my point with this is, is less of what you're saying, because that's important. I'm not saying that's not important. That's for sure important. People are going to go down that path because they just look better, even though they're not better. Uh, but my point with this is it doesn't solve the problem, which is you're still going to have to strengthen. Yeah. You're still going to have to work out. Yeah. You're on a milestone inhibitor. Go work out still because we need it to be strong muscle. We need to be functional. But what I'm saying is that, that is that it's going to be so much worse because one of the, one of the signals that motivates people to go to the gym. In fact, the loudest signal that motivates most clients that we all train is the mirror is the mirror. I know. I don't look good. I don't like the way I look. I would argue that 90% of those people that hired me wouldn't had hired me if they had this artificial signal that said, I look pretty good, but I know I need to go to the gym. I know I need to go lift weights because that's healthy for me or better for me. Like, I don't get the shit. I look good. Here's the real question. Would you trade health to look better? And the answer for most people is yes, they do it all the time. Or they would say no, but deep down they would. Well, their actions tell you the truth. Exactly. That's, you know, I think a lot of people would say no. I mean, I think we're going to arrest the risky procedures and surgeries and things that people do totally in pursuit of looking better, which they want to portray that they have all those qualities, but then that's where we get to test it. Yeah. Well, here's my prediction. Oh, less mitochondrial density here. Let's add this other thing that's going to increase mitochondrial density. Right. And let's figure out this other intervention. Now you're on 17 different. Yeah. And it's like, just, you got to just, you got to work out, dude. You got to work out. Fadi 15 is a fatty acid supplement that contains the newest fatty acid that's being shown in studies to have tremendous health benefits. C 15, there's over a hundred studies that show that C 15 can slow down biological aging, reduce inflammation, make you healthier at the cellular level. It's amazing. It's set. Definitely something people are going to benefit from supplementing with. No, it's not fish oil. It's a totally different type of fatty acid. I've been taking it for a while. I noticed less inflammation myself and I'm already a healthy guy. So it definitely works. Go check them out. Go to fatty 15.com forward slash mine pump. You can get an additional 15% off your 90 day subscription starter kit. If you use the code mine pump back to the show. Our first caller is Mike from Switzerland. What's up, Mike? How you doing, Mike? Hey guys, how's it going? Good. How can we help you? Yeah. Well, I get to tell you guys have helped me out a ton listening to the podcast. It's been super helpful with everything. So thanks for that for sure. But yeah, a little background. 43 year old American living in Switzerland moved here about 10 years ago as my wife. We have two young kids and I've always been a bit overweight my whole life. Even as a kid, I've been relatively active overall, but never really worked out on a regular basis until about 18 months ago and started consuming information, fell into your guys's podcast and started to kind of dial in my routine and diet based off the advice you guys give. And it's been really pretty fantastic. I lost about 50 pounds. So I'm five foot seven. I'm down to 165. Really feeling quite good. Couldn't be really more happy about the whole thing, but hasn't been without some challenges. And so what I want to ask you guys about was the first issue, which about six months into this about a year ago, I had a herniated disc in my cervical spine, which resulted in some pain in my shoulder and arm. I worked on it with the physio and he said basically the doctor thought it was due to looking at a computer screen and bad posture. So we worked on that and after about three months got back into lifting again, but my left trisept was really weak after all of that. And so I took your guys advice. I've been running math, metabolic. I've done it a couple of times basically as written. And I basically just shifted everything to unilateral instead of bilateral and let that left arm dictate the work. And I got to say it definitely came back strong. And my left arm is stronger than before the injury, but the right arm, I'm still a new lifter is also getting stronger. So this is still significant imbalance. Also, my arms are kind of a stubborn body part. My calves are about 16 inches and the arms are barely 13. And then the last piece to throw on top before asking your advice is I fell off my bike and broke a couple of hands on my bones in my hands the other day. So that's the same hand that the arm that has the problem. So now I'm going to be sidelined for another three months. So any advice as far as dealing with the hand and overall just dealing with the imbalance I have with that arm and the nerve issue would be greatly appreciated. So I think keep doing what you're doing. So what you were doing is perfect and stay at it. I don't know how bad the nerve damage is. And if it's if there's going to be any lingering issues, but the way that you're training unilaterally and starting with the weaker arm is exactly where the right direction. If you want to build or develop a lagging quote unquote lagging body part, the prescription is to build more muscle overall. So you can increase your calories, hit your protein, and then what you would do is you would move volume away from body parts that you feel like are pretty well developed and kind of add it towards the lagging body parts. So if a program calls for, you know, nine total sets for biceps during the week, and let's say you're very satisfied with your chest and you know, it's calling for 12 sets for the chest, you could take three sets off that and put it to the arms and then just stay consistent. And that's it. You look great, dude. Doug just pulled up your transformation. You look great. Yeah, you did a great job. Doing a really good job. Where your calories at? Just curious. You know, I don't get too crazy about all the tracking and things. I can tell you one thing. If I do try to actually track for a day, and I'm in the like 2,500 range, I'm like super hungry. So I got to guess some somewhere around 3,000 on average. Oh, nice. Nice. You're doing good. Yeah. But yeah, I, you know, make sure that first couple meals of the day, I try to get to at least 100 grams of protein and I just don't get too crazy about the diet other than, you know, getting away from starches, focusing on protein and focusing on fiber and veggies. Other than that, I don't get too crazy with it. I just kind of let it kind of dictate where it's going to fall and go from there. You're healthy, Doug. You just got to stay consistent. Yeah, you just stay consistent, dude, and follow our programs and do the little volume swap. So a little bit more arm work, a little less whatever you think is doing great work. So if it's with your legs or your back or chest or whatever, and that's pretty much it. Just stay consistent and you'll see the things, you'll see the lagging body parts start to develop. Yeah. Feed yourself. If you're hungry, give yourself food, keep eating the way you are, but like if you don't deprive yourself, continue to fuel the workouts and try and get strong and can get stronger, you know. Maybe, I mean, maybe switch up the programming if he's ran anabolic that many times in a row. Maybe you have any of our other math programs? No, I got that one used it. I liked it. And then I've been kind of just tweaking it based off the overall advice that you guys give. But you know, I'd be open to try and something else if you thought that it would make sense. Symmetry. Yeah, symmetry. It actually sounds like you're making adjustments like that. Yeah. Symmetry is right along the lines of what you need to do anyway. Right. We'll send that to you. Okay. What you're doing good, dude. That's it, man. And obviously you got to let the hand recover. I mean, that's obvious, right? Oh yeah. I just, do you have any advice on that as far as obviously like grip strength is going to be kind of last so I'm not going to be able to do any deadlifts for a while. Is there anything in that other than obviously I wait for the doctor to tell me I can do things, but do you have any advice generally about dealing with that? Do you use peptides? I don't. I'm generally not really interested in going crazy with any of those kinds of items. I do use creatine regularly and I focus on eating the protein, but other than that, I don't supplement. Keep exercising what you can because that'll actually help with the atrophy in your hand. Yeah. And that's pretty much it. Then you just wait, wait till it heals. Okay. I know some people use like straps and things for grip and you guys generally say not to do that because it weakens your grip overall, which you recommend just waiting till the hand can deal with it or would you say that in this case, I should. So how extensive is the break? Like, what are you able to do with that hand? Yeah. So it broke the fourth and fifth metacarpal and I had to have surgery and there's five screws and a plate on one bone and there's wires in the other bone. So my guess is it's going to be three to four months and then after that it should be fine, I think. So here's the risk. So the risk is if you use straps, you're going to have to really not use your grip. What you don't want to do is cause any healing issues, especially with screws and wires. If you move things out of place, you'll be, you'll be setting yourself for another surgery in the future. So you got to be really careful. I know it's a pain in the butt because you got to wait and straps take some of the load off, but not all of the load, you know. So, um, and now there are hooks, you can use hooks that pull at the wrist, but I don't know how much pressure that'll place on the metacarsals, even from here. So I would just be really careful because you want the healing to be good. You don't want a screw to be poking out. You don't want the bone to be misaligned because then what'll happen is you'll be like, cool, I'm good. And then you're going to have all kinds of problems later on. And that is a, that is a pain in the ass to have to continue to operate hands or just, you don't want to operate. It's a short, short phase of your life to, to, to be down and then you'll be right back versus trying to risk it. I mean, you could get creative with like ankle cuffs that you put around your wrist and be like cable machines and do things like that. But it's like, I would just let yourself slow articulations and just isometric, you know, type of work is, you know, but that very gradually working way back. Yeah. Okay. So you basically suggest, wait, just wait it out. Yeah. That's right. And then, and then, and then go back to what I was doing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Then you don't run the risk of re-injuring. Yep. Makes sense. Your body will bounce right back. I mean, we were always worried about like, Oh, I'm gonna lose all that muscle. You'll bounce, it'll bounce right back real fast, way faster than it was to get it. Sounds good. All right. Well, I appreciate the advice you guys. And, you know, I really enjoy the show and everything. It's been super helpful. I, before I started this 18 months ago, I never in my life thought I actually could, you know, get in shape. I was even in high school, I ran track and I was pretty flabby. So understanding what you have to actually do to get in shape is, it's just so easy once you know what to do. It's basic. So, yeah, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. You're in a great place, bro. Keep it up, Mike. All right. Have a good day. Thank you. I mean, pretty, pretty simple, straightforward advice. He's doing the right stuff. I think symmetry would be a perfect program. You didn't want to follow up. You didn't want to push PPC over there, huh? He's, he doesn't want to touch you. Well, yeah, he's uninterested. Yeah. Just lack of knowing what it is though. I said, people, you know why? That's on him. You think you're injecting like some sort of a hormone or something that's like you know, you can also do oral BPC, but he's also in Switzerland. And I don't think they're available. Yeah. Put that up, Doug. What's, what's the regulations? First of all, here it's kind of an iffy. We can get a doctor prescription here, but it's still, you know, FDA tries to on and off. They just let it, you know, go through again. Yeah. When you're talking about like socialized medicine, there are even more of a pain in the ass with that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, you can buy peptides in Switzerland for research laboratory or pharmaceutical. So it's research purposes. So he's going to have to go to the gray market, but he's like, he's right out the gate. No, I know. I just, I mean, when you talk about something, speeding up the healing process, I mean, if that's something you're up, cut that time in half, you know, if it's three months, you're talking about a month and a half. That's what I would do. Yeah. I mean, so would I. So that's why I brought it up, but I don't want to push him on it, but it's also, I think a lot of times people just think it's something that more than what it really is, you know, our next caller is Mercedes from British Columbia. I'm Mercedes. Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you guys? Good. How can we help you? So I'll kind of go through my questions so that you guys can get a full gist of it. Okay. I'm five one. I'm about 102 pounds, 21% body fat. I've been stuck at this weight for a few years now. I train with your course muscle mommy. My lifts have all increased, but my actual gym body scans that I've been getting have said that I have not gained a single pound of muscle at all in the past about three years, but all of my lifts have gone up. I can do 12 unassisted pull ups, but I still haven't gained any muscle somehow. I strength train only. I don't do anything else, no cardio or anything like that. I'm sitting most of the day for my job and I eat 2,800 calories a day at least. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm getting like at least 140 grams of protein per day, like 95 grams of fats a day. Now I'm, I've upped it to 3,000 calories a day, which is really pushing it for me. I don't really know how my future is going to be sustainable because the more muscle mass put on them, more metabolism, you know, so I'm just going to be eating more and more and more food. And I just, I don't know if I can eat any more food at this point. So I was just wondering what you guys thought that I could do to help with this. What do you, what do you, first of all, what do you want? Because you're in such an amazing place right now. That many calories, the body fat percentage you're at, the height, weight, strength, I mean, what do you want? What do you, what's, what are your goals? I also want to gain more muscle. I want to get to like 110 one day, you know. Okay. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, and you probably look, you probably look like a little Jack Chick in the gym. Yeah, dude, you're doing well. I think you're just going to be patient, hun. Yeah. Yeah, just stay patient because I could look, you could force it. What are your lifts at? Tell us about your lifts. You do a tall pull-ups bro. Oh, well, I know. I heard that. I heard that. I can do like doing five by fives. I can bench press about 75 pounds. Solid. What's your dead lift squat? Okay. Oh, what's my dead lift? Well, I usually do RDLs. So I can do like 150 for like 12. Wow. Wow. Wow. I, you know, lots of quad dominance. So I don't really usually squat too much. So I usually do like one leg or like hack squat or stuff like that. But the actual machine weighs like 135 and I'm putting like like two, 45s on it. So my lifts are like pretty up there. Hell of strong. Yeah, you're really strong. Yeah. Let's give it a listen. I'm getting muscle or something. Like I'm not a farmer. No, no, no, no. Listen, listen, you're doing well. So okay. So what's your health deep into muscle, mommy, are you? I've gone through it a few times, but I've changed a few of the exercises just because I didn't really like. Okay. You want to follow mass power lift? Yeah, I could definitely try that. Let's do. Yep, I do. Let me put you on maps power lift. Now look, you could try forcing this. And what that's gonna look like is eating 3,200 calories, 3,300 calories, 3,500 calories. She already takes a mass gain or two. You already taken a weight gain or your, yeah, your petite. And here's what'll happen. You're going to start trading things like gut health for weight on the scale. And I don't think that's a good trade. I definitely think you can swap your chicken breast for chicken thighs though. So do even though I kind of think chicken thighs are kind of disgusting. No, really? Oh my god, you're back or you're so backwards on it. You're so backwards on that. You like ground beef. Yeah, what about beef? All the time, lots of ground beef. Okay. Yeah. Enjoy. Yeah. Enjoy some rib eyes and tri tip like fattier cuts of meat. It would be a way for you to creep the calories up without feeling like you're having stuff yourself. You take great team. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Five grams a day. You're doing everything right. Yeah. You just stay just and just stay consistent. Yeah. Be patient. How old are you? 26. Yeah, you're young too. So just stay patient, stay consistent. You're going to slowly continue to build muscle. You've already got a lot of muscle. You're obviously very strong. I'm so impressed that you are you getting activity outside of your lifts in because you're a truck driver. So you're not you're you're you're somewhat sedentary. I mean, you don't really want holy shit. You have a crazy metabolism. Yeah. Yeah, I seriously do. Yeah, no, stay consistent and you're going to do great. You again, you could force it. I don't think you're going to like the way it feels. You're probably already feeling like you're eating a tattoo. I've tried that. Like, I've tried drinking mask in it before I got a better like eating late at night and then I wake up in the morning. I'm so sick. Yeah. I'm like, worth it. No, because I'm like throwing up or whatever. So can I go like over my like fat intake? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, you throw all the oil on stuff. You can eat fattier cuts of meat. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So like, let's say if I'm like 50, 30, 20, like for macros, like, can I go like higher in my fats and like lowering carbs to help get more calories? I mean, if you want, or you can just keep everything the same, the same and just bump your fats. Yeah. My fat. Yeah. You can afford more calories, obviously. So don't even drop your carbs, keep your carbs with your add. Just add more fat. You know, it's easy to do. Oh, easy way to do that. You eat vegetables. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. You throw some olive oil on it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Olive oil, butter, peanut butter. Yeah. You eat rice, put some butter in your rice. Like that's the easy way to add a few hundred calories. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that makes me like gain lots of fat or anything like that. No, obviously not. No, no, where you're at, your metabolism is so on fire that it's your, it's your. Here's the deal. You have, so here's the deal. When you're hitting adequate protein, which you are eating 140 grams, you only weigh 100 pounds. You can bumping calories at that point is fat and carbs. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter. So yeah, go ahead, throw olive oil, throw some butter on there. I'm going to advise that you don't try to force this. And just just stay consistent. Follow mass power lift, get strong, have fun with it. And you'll keep gaining muscle. Yeah. Okay. So should I be like believing my scans that I've been getting at the gym? No, no, I wouldn't even, you're just, you've told me enough already with your macros, your strength numbers or like that that like you're, you're doing perfect. I wouldn't get hung up on what that shit says. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just keep, just keep getting stronger in the gym and, and that's going to, and keep pushing those calories comfortably. And that's going to serve you. And know this too, you're, you are 26. You still have many years of gains ahead of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, about 30s to go. Yeah. I mean, my best physique didn't happen until my 30s. And so, yeah. So you, you still, you still have gains ahead of you. So just be consistent, keep doing the thing. And you're going to continue to build. You will. Okay. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah, we'll send you power lift. Okay. Thank you. All right. I'm just saying, guys, you too. Every once a while. That's crazy. I guarantee you, I guarantee you, she's got to look jacked. She probably looks like I want to see a picture of her. Doug, she probably looks like a gym. I couldn't find her. No, she has to. She probably looks like she has to. Yeah. You can't, you cannot sit in a truck all day long. Yes. Sitting and only be five one and a hundred pounds and eat 3000 calories and not like be like, just an anomaly. She is got a, she said she has visible abs at 21% body fit, which tells me she's got good muscle. Yes. So, and here's the deal. Like when you're, and this doesn't happen that often, typically we're working with people who are struggling getting leaner or women who are afraid to eat more. But when you're working with someone who's trying to build muscle and they're already eating a lot, I mean, you can definitely force it, but there comes a point where it's not worth it. No, that's, I mean, that's how you and I both got gut issues. That's right. I mean, that's exactly how we got gut issues is was trying to push so hard of getting bigger in spite of it. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's exactly right. No, she's just keep doing it. She's still young, 26. And I didn't, we didn't ask her when she started lifting, but I mean, say she started in her, she's going to, I mean, up until she's in her 30s, she's going to be building some muscle. Our next caller is Jesse from Australia. Hey, what's up, man? How you doing, Jesse? How you doing boys? Have a fuck? Are we good brother? How are you? Good, good. Fuck. I'm so excited. Sorry. This is crazy. How do we help you? How can we help you, man? Ah, shit. Okay. Um, like about 10 weeks ago, I agreed to fight, uh, boxing. I was doing it once a week. Uh, it's like a PT thing. I liked the skill. Um, and then to, to get back into it, did it for about six months, fell off for about a year and a half. Waste was always consistent, but wanted to come back to it because I really enjoyed it. Like the, uh, the, uh, I don't know, I guess progression every week, I'm getting better. And, um, yeah. And my coach was like, you should fight. And I was like, I don't know. And he's like, we got a fight night. You should do it. And I was like, ah, shit. Okay. So I agreed to it. That's when I sent the question. So that was about eight ish weeks ago. So the fight is literally next Saturday, not this Saturday, but next Saturday coming for you. Um, yeah. So it was more, the question was more about like training for it. And, um, I guess how I do everything else at the time, I thought I'd have to cut weight. I'm about 70. I was at the time like 71, 72 kilos. Now I'm at 69. The cap weight was at 72. So we're both good. Me and my opponent are both good. We both try and the same gym. We spoke to each other. So, um, we're both good weight wise. Don't need to cut all sweet. Uh, yeah. So I don't know. So I guess the question sort of now go on to, I don't know, how do I keep training weights wise if I want to also keep doing boxing because I really fucking enjoy it. It might not be three days a week like I am now because I'm sparring a couple times a week and doing skills one on one and stuff like that. And I've dropped my weights down to, uh, twice a week and I'm doing maps, performance and dance. And I'm in the second phase from all like speed, power, explosiveness, stuff like that. And it's, um, you know, I just thought two days a week, don't go crazy, but keep it there. So I got the speed. I got the power. Everything else is cardio and boxing focused for boxing. Um, yeah. So fucking don't change a thing, bro. You're killing it. How many days a week? Two days a week. You're gonna keep boxing two days a week? No, no, no, no. He's trained two days a week. Strain training, right? Yeah. Yeah. But yes. But okay, right. You're doing three days a week now leading up to the fight. What do you plan on doing after the boxing? Um, honestly, I don't know. I don't know. Cause this was like a, I wasn't really planning on fighting. So this is like, uh, I'm scared to do it. I should do it. One of those things, you know, you should always do something that you don't want to fucking do every now and then. Um, but, uh, but yeah, so I, I, I would like to keep going with it. But of course me and my body, just morph your brain. I like, no, I need to be like as big as possible. You know, I need to keep doing the weights, but I really enjoy it. And you know, like, say, like, you know, like sell your, uh, your series and stuff and talking about like your, um, you know, your issues with like, you know, the weights and trying to be as big as possible and all that kind of stuff. Like I was always like a lot skinnier than I am now. The stuff, the photo of me holding a lightsaber is, is proof that you gotta see that. They might show you that. Um, that's when I was like 18, like barely touched the weight. So, um, and I have other photos too. There's an SG in there for you Justin. Um, but yeah, so it's, it's good to challenge that as well. Like I, I, as well as, you know, um, being self self conscious about that kind of stuff can, um, really fuck with shit. And, uh, that's annoying. And also it's good for staying consistent and, you know, motivation is temporary, but discipline is forever, which is great. But at the same time, you know, at some point you gotta let go of that stuff and just fucking do what makes you happy as well. It's good. It's good to be strong and fit and all the other stuff. But, um, yeah. Well, Jesse, if you're, if you're eating right, you're getting good sleep. You seem like you're fit, healthy guy. Give yourself four days a week and then, and then you could, you could, you could trade, train those four days a week how you want. So if it's two days boxing, it's two days lifting. If it's three days boxing, it's one day lifting. If it's three days lifting, it's one day boxing. And then it's up to you what you want, what you enjoy doing. And that's what it'll look like. Cool. Awesome. Um, yeah. So I can, this is like, oh, god. I like the idea of you boxing because of your self awareness around, um, the body image stuff, which, uh, I can, I can relate to south can relate to the guys can relate to that. Uh, keeping you focused on like a sport like that is a healthier relationship with exercise in my opinion. And so I think it's a good, a good way to have checks and bounds. And you look badass, bro. I mean, I'll be, yeah, no, you're, you look, you look great. So, and you're, and obviously if you're boxing, you're moving well too. So, um, you know, I regret losing basketball, you know, that's something that I wish I was still playing right now. And so if it's something that you can keep going and keep doing, I, I'd keep, I'd keep boxing, even if it's not at the, uh, level of fighting somebody, at least doing it, because you love to do it, uh, for as long as you can. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Now I used to, I used to play Aussie footy and then that stopped because of COVID and all that kind of stuff, but I played from like literally, I don't know, maybe like Oz kick or like whatever it is for you guys, like P way football, you know, like, is your like, you know, four or five years old, all the way up until like, you know, maybe like I was 24, almost 25. So that just got like too fatiguing. I just don't, and also I go for a shit football team. We haven't won a Premier ship in like 30 years. So I'm just like, you know, don't go for, don't go for Carlton if you go for a football team. Also, maybe please do please. We need more support. But yeah, so that, that was like a, that was a, yeah, that was a big part of my life. And then that's sort of gone, but it's weird to just sort of like not have the passion anymore, but that was like boxing is something else that I found it in. Um, yeah. Lina boxing is a really good check and balance for, for how you feel with strength training. It really is cause you get too big and bulky. You'll feel in the boxing, you know, boxing requires a nice level of stamina. Uh, I like the mix. I think it's great. Uh, and then it's up to you what your mix looks like throughout the week. You know, if it's once a week or two or three days a week with lifting, um, and they, they work well together. Yeah, they do. And throughout the year, you can, you can toggle the focus. So it's like, uh, so half the year you're heavy in the boxing. And so it looks like three days a week of training in that only one day of lifting. And then you're like, all right, I've been boxing for a while. Kind of want to get big again. And then you switch back to three days of lifting and only one day of boxing. Uh, so I like that kind of rule of stay within this like four days of kind of intense type of training and be toggling between whatever your focus is, uh, leaning that way. And then if you want to balance, you split it down the middle. Totally. Yeah. Awesome. Fuck yeah. No, that's cool. That's so good. Um, there's one, one small one thing. Yeah. Uh, cause my sleep is usually uh, decent. I put a lot of effort into my sleep routine, especially like blue light blocking glasses or that kind of crap. Um, and you know, like devices and all that shit, but staying asleep is another thing because I'm a very light fucking sleeper. Uh, I sleep with my Mrs. In Bed, obviously, but we also have two dogs. Whenever they move, I'm up. If they get up in the middle of the night, I'm up. Um, is there anything you guys recommend on deep sleeping? I do have an eight sleep that I bought off of me, uh, which has been amazing. Right. Staying cool because I just fucking run hot all the time. But in terms of actually staying in deep sleep, I haven't checked my sleep before. I got like six half hours, but I woke up like five times during the night. So it's like, you could try. Yeah. So you could try glycine, theanine magnesium, magnesium before bed and then white noise or earplugs. Okay. Some people do really well with that. Like, like the white noise just keeps them asleep. Or the soft earplugs that you put in your ear and then you're, you're good. I do that. You do that? Yeah. Earplugs. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I think I might have to. Yeah, dude. Cause then your dogs moves and stuff and you don't, you don't register it while you're sleeping. Yeah. Or you, if you haven't tried brain FM, that's with that too though. I think that's, I'm more of a brain FM guy than I am the earplug guy. So I like that. I listen to brain FM every night. Oh, cool. There you go. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And then mess with, like Sal said, the supplements. Um, I do the same stack he just said and I sip on some chamomile tea. That's kind of my, my routine before I wind down before bed helps out. By the way, sometimes waking up a lot in the middle of the night means you're training a little too hard. Just, just, just an FYI. So another thing you experiment with is reducing the volume of your training. And then if you're sleeping proves that, you know, that was the issue. Yeah. Shit. Hey, good luck on your fight, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate it. I put a picture of actually made like cards like fight posters as well, which I wasn't expecting. So there's actually, there's that as well. Picture of my dogs, picture of my mrs. I don't know. You guys just been, you've been such a massive big fucking part of my life, obviously with the fucking one pump. Yeah. I appreciate that man. Dude, like, I just like, I don't know. I found you guys like, as soon as COVID hit, you had like clips and stuff recommended on like YouTube shorts. And I was like, fuck, this is perfect. Like, you know, podcast only about fitness, but it's actual good shit. And these guys are all jacked too. You know, so it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. You guys have changed like the way I think about everything, like to all my friends, like I'm the fitness person, obviously, but like, they come to me for advice, but I feel like I can actually give proper advice because I've listened to almost every single old episode you guys have done and like almost every single new one. And listened to that many live calls. I feel like I can also just be like, no, you should do this. I'm like, focus on that. That's great. Body. You know, so appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you guys so much. Thank you so much. Appreciate your support, brother. Good luck, man. Go whoop-a-sass. Thanks boys. Yeah. Yeah. All right, dude. That's cool. He's great. Yeah. Yeah. It might, you know, it might be that he's pushing the limit a little bit with his training. And that's just the common thing. If you're a young man or, you know, you're fit and you get that kind of wake up throughout the middle light, could be that. Could also be that you're a light sleeper. Some people's brains register noise and it brings them out and earplugs. Is that you too? Yeah, it makes a difference. So, but he's doing good. Our next caller is Salvador from California. Hey, what's up, man? What's up, dude? Hey, how's it going guys? Good, good. All right. How can we help you? I'll just read the question. I got a little lost. All right. So, said, hi, fairly new listener to the podcast. Looking into getting a workout program for your little help choosing. I did football and wrestling in high school. Graduated 2015. Graduated at 220 pounds. After a couple of years, I went up to 280 or 290. 2018, I lost 60 pounds in about six, three months doing just like hit workouts and mile and a half runs. And then during the pandemic, I kind of gained it all back. I was getting free money and Postmates was there. So, and November 2025, I was at 282 again. And since I've dropped to, was it when I sent the emails at 258 around there, I'm currently at 248. But I kind of hit a plateau, like a really bad plateau around 255. I was stuck there for a couple months. And I've been, I've still been floating at that weight. Haven't really dropped too much. My current, my goal is to drop to 220 by July. I'm trying to compete in a 50 kilometer mountain bike race in October. And I want to be in that weight range that way I can kind of ride the bike a little easier up hills and down hills. At the moment, I'm eating 180 grams approaching a day around 17 to 2000 calories daily. My workouts are like 30 minute cardio and then five minute jump rope. And then I'll do like four compound workouts, three of my workouts. And I'll do two to three times a week. You're starving yourself, brother. You're way too little. Way too little. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And how, um, how dead set are we on this mountain bike challenge? Well, that's in October. No, it's in. Yeah, it's in October. Okay. Yeah, we're good. Because, yeah, the, I wouldn't even want you focusing on that right now. You need to, you need to build. We need to build, build muscle right now. Um, and you're not going to do that at 1700, 2000. Here's the deal. If you want to get down to 220 by October and lose body fat, you're going to have to eat more now. Yes. You're not going to cut now. No. So you could, you could still train, uh, work out, do everything that you're doing, but build into a leaner physique. Uh, cause there's nowhere to go. Your, your calories are so low. If I cut you more, you're going to have just a total decrease in performance. You're going to lose muscle. I would immediately bump you up to about 2400 calories. 25 at least. Right out the gates. Right. Right out the gates. 25. And just, and just, and just keep working out. And what you're going to notice is more energy, more strength. You're going to start to feel better and stay there for a little while. And then when everything feels good, you'd bump it up again. What, what I'd want to hear from you and what we should see after you go to that 2500 is relatively quick. We should start to see your lifts in the gym go up, which also too, I want to give you a program of ours. And I want to make sure I tell this that you need to rest between. So the way you've lost the weight in the past with hit training and running is the opposite philosophy of what you've probably heard us communicate and talk about. So when I give you maps, anabolic to follow, you need to rest for a minimum of two and a half to three minutes between sets. So you got, you got to sit still, no doing shit like crazy or no, like, oh, I'm ready to go and go right into it. You need to rest and your goal is to put more weight on the bar, more weight on the bar over, week over week. So the first thing that I should see is strengths go up significantly in all the big compound lifts that you've been doing. That should be the first thing we notice. Second thing we're going to notice is appetite increase. And I want you to feed it. So if you're already at 2500 and you actually start to notice you're getting hungry and strength is going on the gym, I actually want you to go up in calories again. That's your metabolism starting to kick up and your body wanting to build muscle. And the where you're at calorie wise with the amount of activity and the size you are is not enough calories to build 10 pounds of muscle on your body. And we need to build 10 pounds of muscle. Stick to clean food, keep eating whole foods and just feed yourself while you get stronger, bro. By the way, you're not just going to notice a jump in strength. Your endurance is going to go up too by bumping your calories. Yeah, everything. Yeah, you're not taking enough, enough energy, guy, your size to do to have any kind of good athletic performance. What you're noticing right now is like your body surviving. That's why I don't want to lose anybody. Yeah. Yeah, that's why it's hit a plateau hit a hard plateau because it's like we can't we can't go if you go 24, 2500 calories right now, you stay there for a while, you'll feel good, then you go up another 200 calories. And then then probably three months before October, you'll probably get yourself up to about 3000 323300 calories by that point. And then you want to do a cut, you go down to 2500 calories and you'll just call it call us back in three months. Do what we're telling you to do right now. We're going to give you anabolic bump to 2500. If you get hungry, go up to 2700. Focus on getting strong, get those long rest periods. And then in three months, we should we should have shown you a significant difference by that advice alone. And then we'll give you the advice from there to get ready for your your your 50k mountain bike thing. Yeah. Does that sound cool? Yeah, something. All right, let's do it. Let's do it. Thanks, man. All right. Thank you guys. Yeah. I like what Justin said with the I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, bro, he's way too low. No, bro. Your body is is holding on for dear life to every bit of stored energy. When you're working out that much and your calories are that low and you're that big of a guy, you know, he's too what do you say when he's at 200, 248. Yeah. He's 248. Yeah, the big dude and he's doing cardio. He's doing a lot of working out. He's eating enough to just to hold on to everything. There's nothing's going to happen. So yeah, I know it's a lot. That's it. Look, if you like this show, come find us on Instagram. It's mine pump media. Thank you for listening to mine pump. 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