Sanya Richards-Ross: Running & Reinvention

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Right now, you can get $30 off a 15-inch Skylight calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky. That's m-y-sk-y-ly-ght.com slash Becky. I don't know if you know this about me, but I am very into sports. When I was growing up, I was a competitive gymnast, and I was on a competitive soccer team, and I was pretty intense about it. I was really driven, which sometimes worked for me, and in other stages actually worked a little bit against me, or at least my own mental health in the moments. My family today is also super into sports, my kids play sports, and we just watch a lot of sports, and we get really into it. And sometimes I step back and I think, what is this phenomenon? I have such an emotional reaction to people. I don't even know what is going on. I love learning more about competitive athletes. What their early years were like, what shaped them, what motivates them, how they think about performance differently than other people. Anyway, my interest, my curiosity about sports is actually what led to this series. This is the playbook, a limited series by Good Inside and partnership with Nike. I'm going to be talking to some of the most successful athletes of our time, leaders who have had real impact in their sport. And I'm going to be talking with them about their highs, about their lows, about their mindset, about team dynamics, about what really motivates them, about the way they talk to themselves and recover from difficult stages. And I also have some of my favorite moments with these athletes, where we talk about their life off the field. Their early years, their family life, the things that keep them grounded, their rituals and superstitions that keep them going, we cover so much in every conversation. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Today I'm sitting down with someone who's story I cannot wait to explore. Sonia Richards Ross, you know her. She's a four-time Olympic gold medalist. She's also one of bronze medals. She is five Olympic medals. She's one of the greatest 400-meter runners of our time. From the outside, people see Sonia Richards Ross, the ferocious competitor, laser-focused, in control of her craft, such a winner. They see her power, her confidence. They see a champion who rose again and again. That's all true. And today, I want to look on the inside, the mental strength and the inner work that shaped Sonia long before the medals and long after the medals. Hi, Sonia. Hi, Dr. Becky. I often like to start by actually rewinding. So maybe we can jump in. Just when you think about your early years growing up in Jamaica, getting into competitive racing, probably lots of things in your early years besides that, just tell me a little bit more about that. What comes to mind? Man, you know, that's a really good question. It's so funny because sometimes I feel so far removed from that life. It feels like I've had two lives. And so it's nice to sometimes reflect on that. But when I think about my early years, I just think, I mean, they were just wonderful. They were wonderful. I had amazing and still have amazing parents. We grew up like middle upper class in Jamaica. We used to go to the beach every weekend. Everything was just so good. And I remember, you know, just kind of that pureness of finding sports and loving track and feel so much and wanting to be great. And my parents just doing everything that they could to help me live my dreams. So in Jamaica, track and field is the most popular sport. So I remember as early as I could remember for three, four, five, the country literally shutting down to watch the Olympics and watching Merleyn Addy and some of those great athletes, you know, have the kind of success and bad moratian from the country. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to be the Olympic champion. And so when I was seven years old, we had a fun day at school where you race and you do all these things and I beat all the boys. And the head coach for the track team was like, okay, you're joining the track team. And you know, just started from there. And I remember Dr. Becky, my dad, as early as probably nine, 10, 11, 12, telling me, you're going to be the best in the world. You're going to be the best in the world one day. And when I was nine, I wrote for my class assignment when they asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? I said, I've been a Olympic champion when I was nine years old. So it started really early. You know, of course, it was very fun for me. I wouldn't say that it became, you know, this huge goal for my life until I was really 16. I started to really like locking and do all the right things. But as early as nine, I had dreams of being an Olympic champion. When you were in that nine year old dish range, I'm just always curious, was it when your parents who's like, Sonia, come on, we're going to, we're going to do some running now. Was were you more like mom or dad, I'm going out to run like the, the motivation was it always intrinsic? Did it start from someone else and then it transferred to you? How did it work when you were young? That's a great question. It was intrinsic. I remember my parents telling me I would get up like, we had a track meet that weekend. I would be up at five, six o'clock, already dressed by the bedside. Like it's time I'm all be like, San, it's too early. The track meets not until four or five. And so I remember as early as I can remember wanting to run, wanting to win, wanting to be the best. And then I think my parents nurtured that. And that's something that I feel like is, you know, something that we will talk about a lot and how, you know, that balance of when you have an individual who desires to be great, how do you foster that? And I think my parents did a really good job. My, my mom and dad always let me lead, right? So they followed my lead. Like when I was like, when it was just fun for me, they didn't make me ever feel like there was a ton of pressure on me. It was always just like, and then at 16 when I was like, okay, dad, I really want to be great. My dad was ready to go equipped with all the things that we needed to do that. So I would say it was intrinsic. And I just always had this burning desire to be great. And my parents just always met me where I was. It's such a powerful model. I don't know if you see it around you now. But sometimes it's hard to differentiate how much does the kid want this? Yeah. How much does the parent want this for the kid who's living whose dreams? I don't know if you noticed that just in families around you now. But it sounds like it was pretty clear for you. This is my dream. This is my motivation. I'm the one getting up. I want to do this. And then the other, but the other thing you said that I think is really important too is your parents supported that. Like they nurtured that, but it came from you. 100%. 100%. My parents did everything that I asked them to do supported me in every way. But it certainly was my dream. This wasn't something that my dad had hoped for me before I wanted it for myself. And that's something that I'm really is really important to me now as a mom with with our children. We have four, three boys. And I want them to lead like whatever they're excited about whatever they love. We're going to support them. But we're certainly not going to plant any unrealized dreams of ours, you know, into them. Yeah. I mean, you have a lot of realized dreams. The rest of us have a lot of unrealized dreams. That is one point now. I think I read, but time this is right because you said 16, but age 12, you move. Yes. Is that right? Okay. Tell me about that. So you were 12 and you left Jamaica. So my entire family, most of my family was still living in Jamaica at the time. So my mom is one of six. And so she, there are two boys and four girls and the majority of her family and my dad, because of a small family, his mom, Jamaican, his older sister, everyone was still in Jamaica. And so around 12 or maybe around around 10, my mom's elder sister migrated to the states, her mom migrated to the states. And so they kept saying to her, look, if you're going to make the move, you want to do it now while the kids are still young. So they'll have a chance to get into a good university and just kind of that, you know, living that dream, like you want your kids to have a better life, more opportunities. And so my parents for two years kind of thought about, okay, what would this move look like? Where would we move to? And so when we were 12, when I was 12, my sister was 11, my mom and dad decided to move to South Florida. One of her sisters were there. We traveled there a lot. And she felt like it was kind of the easiest transition from Jamaica to Miami, Fort Lauderdale area, kind of, you know, the same kind of weather, the same kind of vibe. And so, yeah, my parents basically moved for us to be able to have greater opportunities. And so I went to middle school for one year and then I went to high school for four years in South Florida and then got a scholarship to the University of Texas. And before we move past those early years, what was racing like, what was winning like performance? Like how did you handle that? And how did that all play out for you when you were younger? I certainly learned my drive and desire to be successful early because I used to love to win so much. And when I did lose, you know, my dad, I would cry and my dad would be like, that's okay. That's okay. It should matter to you that things didn't turn out the way you wanted them to. And I would have that moment to be able to be in my feelings to cry. And then he's like, okay, what are we going to do better tomorrow? How are you going to improve on this so that you don't have to have this feeling again? And so it definitely helped me to be able to deal with disappointments, but also to get back up on the horse and to try again. And do you remember at those ages you lose something? Okay, you'd feel your feelings like, what would you say to yourself? Did you spiral? Was it kind of like short window, be upset, back at it tomorrow? Like what was your process even when you were younger? I feel like the people around you can really help to shape, you know, because you are young, you don't know how to deal with those emotions. And so I was never that kid that spiraled out because things weren't going my way. I was like, okay, you didn't work out. I feel I'm sad about it now, but tomorrow I get a chance to try it again. Where was the feeling greater? Like the joy of winning or the hatred of losing for you? The hatred of losing? For sure. I enjoyed winning a lot, but I think I hated losing more. And that was my drive to always work really hard. So speaking of that, actually, the person in kind of the next lane, I know you've said before that your biggest competition has never really been the woman in the other lane is kind of the expectations you hold for yourself. And what I love to hear from you about is I have this concept I think a lot about with parents, with kids is how much we gaze out and how much we gaze in. And both matter. If you're only gazing in, you got to pay attention to the world, but a lot of a lot of women. And I think a lot of young girls are almost trained to whether in sports or elsewhere gaze out to the point that they don't gaze in. What matters to me? What do I care about? And you seem to have from a young age, like it's never about the other person saying, like, I am someone who gazes in for my expectations, at least before I gaze out. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, I think for me, I have that really good habit from sports or saying, okay, when I start to get too distracted by looking at other people, I then zone back into no, like how am I performing against the, you know, barometer of success, I've placed on myself. And as special as a mom, I've given myself a whole lot more grace these days. But yeah, it was something that was very intentional about. But look, it does kind of remind me, it isn't just an alive event. I was saying this, but it feels like a parallel. Like as soon as as a mom, we're judging our good parenting by say, whether or not our kid had a tantrum when we held a boundary, I always say I'm like giving away all my power. My kids are going to do what they're going to do. But do I know my job? Do I feel proud of how I showed up? And if I do, I'm like, okay, I'm going to hold this boundary because let's say, I don't want my kid to watch another show. And maybe they have a tantrum, but that's kind of on them. Do I know how to hold the boundary? Do I show up in a way I'm proud of? And can I find a win based on gazing in, totally separate for my kid's behavior? It doesn't seem that far from like, am I focusing on what I need to do in the lane versus what she's doing in the lane over there. No, that's an amazing parallel of some other hood. And I love finding that because I feel like I work so hard in sports. And so it's like whenever I can draw that into my new life as a mom, I just think that's such a great way to analyze it. And I think we do as moms put a lot of, oh, am I doing a good job based on our kids reactions or actions? And it's really true. Like it's really, am I showing up my doing my best? And that's really where sometimes the wins are. So I love that. There is a world where you are doing your best, let's say on your baseball team. And another kid moves up the batting water above you. They can both be true. And how you handle that moment, first of all, if you're a competitive kid, you're going to be upset. But it's very protective to able to say, okay, like what did I do over the summer? I feel proud of my work. I know I'm working on my swing. Look, that kid next to me, whatever it is, he, she grew at a faster rate. Like, wow, I'm impressed too. And for right now, this is where it's at. But I did work hard. And I am proud of myself, even if that other kid is batting, you know, more home runs. And that, that prevents someone, instead of something feeling hard, like if you don't have that, you're going to spiral based on someone else. Right. So to be able to find your win in sports, in parenting, separate from someone else's behavior to me is such a mental health protector. Right. You have had, right? Some kind of heartbreaking moments in sports and racing, right? That, you know, the races where things didn't go the way you wanted to injury that changed everything. And I know you've spoken about, in some ways, like we learn more from those moments, probably over time, maybe not that moment. Yeah. Well, what have you learned from some of like that? Can you tell me about one of the hard moment that comes to mind or a hard result and how it felt in the moment? And then maybe over time, what, what you got from it? No, yeah. I mean, one of my toughest, toughest moments in sports came in 2008. When I was favored to win gold in the Olympics, I had been from 2020, from 2006 to 2008, I was undefeated. I had been running really well. World number one broke the American record was just on track to just it was just like, felt like it was meant to be. And also too, I mean, you know, I had worked really hard, you know, especially in 2008 with the Olympics being that season, it's just natural that you just up everything. I was eating right resting, just doing all the things to to win this Olympic gold medal. And so when it didn't happen for me on that night and I finished third, I felt like the world was going to come to an end like literally. It was, it was the most devastating heartbreaking experience I had had in my life up until that point. Because the other thing too, Dr. Becky is the minute you cross that finish line, you know, you have to wait four more years. If you get the opportunity to be there again, those most athletes only make one Olympics in their, you know, sporting lifetime. And this was my second Olympics. So it was really, really, really, really crushing to have done all that work to get to that point and to only lose that race. So I ran 20 races that season. That was the only race I lost was the Olympic final. Like, I felt like I was wanting to go inside of the track and like just go down like just where, you know, because I just felt like like I felt my body was failing. Like I was literally like I felt like I was going to have a heart attack. And then as I was like, so I was bawling crying, I was really, really disappointed. And I remember we on at that Olympic night, they gave us our medals at same night. Sometimes you get them the next day. And so they, you know, that all everything's happening so fast. I'm devastated. My heart feels like I think I can't breathe. Like I'm having all these thoughts like, oh my god, that this just happened. You know, so there's just a lot of things happening got to be all at once. That made it extremely crushing. Yeah. I really thank you for being willing to put words to that. I think the interesting thing is like that there's no universality to being in the Olympics. That's like a very selective people. But the feeling of like something that I assumed kind of what happened. And I worked hard for and I wanted all of the sudden in a moment, there's like this disbelief of it not happening. And the last minute, Dr. Becky, unless there is less than a minute, less than a minute. I hope in dream that you had your whole life just gone in a minute. It's it's it's it is really, and I'm getting emotional now, thinking about it because it's like so hard to describe that. Like, you know, I mean, like you think you from I was nine years old, I'm like, this is my moment. This is my time. Like I've beat all these girls all year. It's like, why didn't it happen? You know, so here you are. Now you've survived it, which is sometimes the best we can say about hard things. And what did what did that looking back? It doesn't take away the pain. I think sometimes we think like the growth takes away the pain or they just can both be true. So, yeah, what what what have you taken from that or what did it do to you or do for you? Yeah. So, you know, so there were there are a bunch of lessons, but there was one that was like in the moment or I call it in the moment because the same Olympics a couple days later. And then there's of course, what happened beyond that. But I think for me what the best thing that happened to me was obviously my whole family, everybody knew how it's especially how important it was to me. So they all gave me that night to like cry and kind of mourn that, you know, lost opportunity moment. I remember the next morning, my coach, he, he of course, I saw my coach after but didn't exchange a lot of words because he knew, you know, so next day I was I we had the relay. So at the Olympics, you do individual events first, a couple days later is the four by four relays. I can be in the 400, the four by four relays. I told my coach, I said, I'm not running. I can't even picture myself getting back on the track. Like there's just no way like the commentator, Otto Bolton, who is now my colleague actually said, this was the biggest upset of the games. Like that's how much we what I thought for sure as an a winning. And so, so my coach says to me, he says, no, you don't you, I'm not going to allow you to do that. He said, you've worked too hard. You're going to leave here with a gold medal. And I remember, so I thank God I had two days off. I said, I had the first day of like not get out of bed. The second day of going back to my coach and him saying to me, no, I'm not going to allow you to do that. I'm you're going to get out there and you're going to win an Olympic gold medal. I run the anchor for team USA. And most of the times we get the baton in front. Like I've always kind of run like a victory lap almost because our team is so dominant and we just, you know, are crushing it by the time I get the stick. And so this time in 2008, we actually get the stick behind Russia. Right. So I get the stick. I am behind the Russians. And you know, it's going to take everything I've got to pull out this gold medal. And so already, of course, I'm very emotionally drained from all that I've gone through. Of course, I'm physically fit because I haven't trained, you know, forever for this. And so I remember, you know, pacing myself behind or pacing myself behind her. And with the final 100 meters to go, I think, okay, I'm going to just, I'm going to pass her. I feel like I got it. So I go out and I don't pass her as quickly as I thought I would. And so I had to dig. Eve, I mean, I'm talking about from my pinky toe. I'm like, we got to muster up, you know, what is going to take? And so in about the last 10 or 15 meters, I overtake her and I win gold for my team. And, you know, I think for me, the lesson I learned in that moment that I think has helped me through my entire life is we can overcome massive disappointment and still short for ourselves and short for what God has for us, you know, because I could have missed out on that opportunity. I could have stayed and my team might have won silver. And, you know, that more of what happened. But the fact that the people around me, not just my coach, my mom, I said, no, we're not going to allow you to give up on yourself. It allowed me to have that moment that I think is that was for me kind of the turning point of my career, the very next year, I won worlds. And then I went on so win my Olympic gold medal in London in the individual. So I think that moment there of showing up in the face of all, I mean, all the things that was happening internally, externally to still show up go out there and have that little success. It just proved to me that I can I could do anything. You know, I could show up under any circumstance and be great. You know, those weeks in winter when everyone just feels on edge, the dark, the cold, the being cooped up, it all adds up. Kids are arguing, routines are off and you catch yourself thinking, okay, we might need reset. Look, nothing fancy or dramatic, just a little break from the norm. When I feel that way, I check out Airbnb. I'll filter for a cozy spot, a living room where we can actually relax, maybe a snowy view, maybe a fireplace if we're lucky. On a recent family trip, that change of scenery made such a difference. Having space to settle in, be together and step out of our usual routine helped us all reset and breathe a little easier. And something I really appreciate, while we're away, we could host our home on Airbnb. So it doesn't sit empty and earns us a little extra income to put toward our next trip. But the thought of handling everything that comes with hosting sounds overwhelming. 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It's like a core principle to see your kid is capable, right? And so and to set them up to see that themselves. And we have to see our kid is capable so many times before they can access that feeling in themselves. And we can't collude with their assumption that they can't handle something because if your coach did, that's like in the moment, maybe it's temporary relief, but it's the worst feeling. And so just the other day, I was talking to a friend and it's different, but so similar where their kid lost a starting spot in their soccer team, very competitive. And was like, I'm not going to practice today. I can't like it's always the starting team. I'm going to walk out and I'm like, wait, that's not even me. I'm going to be one of the kids watching from the sideline. I've never not started before. My friend called me. We talked through it. Is it what you're going to say is you're going to that practice. I'll drive you. Okay. But in my life, but I won't let you take away an opportunity to see you are capable of dealing with this. It's going to feel awful. It's going to feel embarrassing. It's going to be the worst practice of your soccer career. I'm in agreement with all of that. But to watch yourself just survive that, I will not let you take away that moment because for the rest of your life, soccer aside, you're going to have people get promoted before you do. You're going to have someone get married and get a big house and you get whatever it is. You're going to have people get things are going to be disappointed. And I will not let you in this state make this type of decision for yourself. And that's what we coached around. And it was it was from a place of love and belief and capability, which is sound like exactly what your coach did. And kind of saying, you're not in a place on you to make this decision for yourself. I know you, like you're not in the best place to do that. And so I am going to set you up. Yeah. And I believe in you. And like, I just have the chills thinking, thinking about that. Yeah. When you repeated, it gave me chills. And my coach just passed away a lot of month ago. And so just yeah, he was such an honorable, amazing man. And it also taught me too that the people around me didn't care about the medals. Like this, it was so much deeper and so much more beautiful. And you know, it was about just me. It was about myself development. It was about me striving for my goals and just always showing up doing my best. And so yeah, I'm so grateful that he said those words to me. I will not allow you, you know, to miss this opportunity. And like I said, when people look like more people remember that race than even my individual London goal medal, because it resonates, right? Like we all fall down. Like we all fail. And you know, to get back up and do something great, I think that, you know, that made that my story, I think more relatable than just the win, win, win, win, win. Most people don't have that experience. Like we, you know, it's a win. We fail forward. You know, all those things. It was beautiful. I have to say you're much more likeable just from so the other thing that came up as you were talking about, I worked so hard and so hard and so long. And then it's gone in like a second. Honestly, the thing that resonated so deeply in my body is something I know I hear from parents all the time as a parallel, which is interesting for me because I know this is something that's happened to you too is miscarriage. Yeah. Is as soon as we get pregnant, it's like we have the date. We have the life. We imagine the thing we're planning for the season. I'm going to become a parent. And then it's just it's so powerful that you use language that I hear from people all the time. Like in an instant that was gone. Like in an instant that was gone. Like I've kind of also wanted my whole life this and you know, or many months and then it's gone. And so and I know that that's a part of your your parent journey as well. Yeah, you know, that was and that was I have a community called mommy nation. And so I'm around like, you know, like we talk about all the things or in community. And I have heard so many other moms talk about their experiences of miscarriage. But until you experience it for yourself, you don't realize just really how gut wrenching heartbreak and it is because it's true. I think the minute you start to accept that you're you know, you're a mom and you're like, it's happening and you're like excited about it and you, you know, start to think of the name and the room and then it's just gone. There's this like, you know, strange dichotomy of like, did I do something wrong? It's nothing wrong with my my body too. Was it meant to be like all of these thoughts of like, why did this happen? Yeah, miscarriage, you know, it's it's certainly different, right? Then losing Olympic gold medal. I think it cuts a little bit deeper because it's family. It's, you know, it's those things. And so yeah, it was really, really, really hard. It was a really hard life experience. But a couple months later, we got pregnant again and I became a model of two but I mean, my second son is just they're all amazing. So it's, you know, it's like once again, that four by four Olympic final, right? I had the bad and then I get the good again. So thank God for that balance of in life. But yeah, it was it was really tough to experience that. What what are you do you speak about your kids with such joy? Yes. Like what? Yeah, what are you proud of stuff in your family and you're in your parenting when you think about your kids? Oh, man, you know, first of all, I got to say, you know, for, you know, all the mommies listening, then I thought I was one and done. Like really Dr. Becky, I was like, I am one and done. And I wasn't like it was like the door in my mind was closed. I I felt like I just there were so many things in my life that I still wanted to do and I didn't want to cheat my family. Like I wanted to be and I knew after having my son like this is a full time, you know, a mid-may and I just don't want to like compound it, you know, and so for a long time, I wasn't in the the the the the the headspace to have more kids. And so I'm really grateful that my husband is the kind of man that allowed me to like, you know, grow through my own growth and decide when it was right, you know, and so when we finally decided to go for our second, you know, uh, baby. Um, and we had the miscarriage and then we actually had a sunny. I don't know. I just feel like you're you feel like sometimes your heart, you don't have room or you're, you know, we're and it's like your heart just grows. You just end up with all this capacity to just love these little humans. And so that makes me happy. And my third son is like, my third son understood the assignment. Dr. Becky, like he showed that pretty easy. I'm gonna go plus I go cry. I can be here. I'm gonna go. I think I'm not going to call me. He's like, I don't cause no fuss. I'm gonna just sit here and chill. And he's the calmest baby. My other two are like crazy off the wall. And so, you know, he's just been a very easy addition. He hasn't caused us any additional strife. He's healthy, loving. So yeah, and I'm just really proud of where we've come as a family. You know, like I thought we were going to be a family of three. Now we're an awesome loving family of five. And I just, yeah, I just love it. I love that. So speaking of kids, I'm sure you noticed the athletic world around you, kids these days, you know, doing sports, competitive sports, a couple of questions around kind of, I'm curious about, you know, if you had like some toolkit for the next generation, some of the things that that might include. So yeah, let's start with for young girls in sports. When you think about young girls in sports, trying to figure out where they fit, feeling like enough, you know, the drive to do well and maintain your mental health. Like what's a message you have for them? Yeah. And you know, I kind of alluded to that in the beginning of our conversation is that they're definitely navigating a whole new environment in space when it comes to being a great athlete, being in sports as a woman in sports because I think that comes with a whole another level of mental toughness that is required. Because you know, when you're a woman in sports, and I don't know if this may be in life, Dr. Baker, you can tell me, but it requires more, right? For you to kind of get the same stuff, you know, like you can't just be great. You also got to speak well. You got to look a certain way. There's so many other butts, butts, butts, or and and and. But what I'll tell you is, and I've really love to see this is that there has been a shift in a change in sports that I think young girls can lean into. I would say to the young girl out there to just be authentic. Show up 100% who you are. I would say to work hard like that's there's no shortcut to success. I think people now think there's like a micro-ivable success. There's no shortcuts to success. You're going to have to put in the work, believe in yourself, surround yourself with good people, positive people, and the sky is the limit. What trait or quality, not physical, more emotional, mental, do you feel like is really important for young athletes to be building? Yeah, I would say we talked about it too, is that kind of like being able to turn back into yourself. I think you have to set goals for yourself and constantly be checking in with those personal goals so that you don't get so caught up with what's going on around you that you lose your way. I didn't mention this earlier, but one of the other shifts in my career that I think helped me so much after 2008 was I started working with a sports psychologist. I wish I had started doing a sooner. If someone had told me I would have done it sooner, but it really helped me because I was honing all my skills physically with my strength coach, my track coach, but I really wasn't fine-suning my mental toughness. When I got with Dr. Corley and we started to work on the skills that it took to really be present in the moment, to quiet that monkey chatter, that noise in our minds, that sometimes distract us from being great, it really changed the game for me. I would also encourage young people, especially ones that want to perform at the highest level to work with a sports psychologist or a psychologist to really help to give you the tools that you need to be present and fully mentally prepared to execute at your highest level when you become an elite athlete. After the loss, whether it's a race to the game, a bad game, what do you think about telling young athletes? How should they handle that? What should they say to themselves? What thoughts should they watch out for? I think after a really tough loss, you gotta remember the sun is going to come up tomorrow, the world is not coming to an end, and that challenges come to refine us. They don't come to keep us down. I always tell people that failure is a recipe in the ingredients for success. You're not going to get to that final point of success without experiencing some failure. You gotta figure out how to embrace it, lean into it. I always say you fail forward. You know, failing feels like you're falling down, but if you're failing forward, when you get up, you're in a better place. I think it is not to be afraid of failing, but to embrace it in the best way that you can learn from it and then get back to work. I love that idea of thinking about it like an ingredient in that recipe, because I think about that too. I'll be watching a team I like and I'm a big fan of Duke basketball or a big Boston sports fan here. They'll lose in the regular season and it's always, for salt, I'm not on the team, but still as a fan, you're like, oh man, right? But if you think about the ultimate goal and the championship and the playoffs, you need that hard loss. You need because you need to know nothing someone tells you is going to give you the experience of that feeling, that feeling. You can't and that feeling when you're in the championship game, like that's going to drive you again. If you hate losing, you're like, I do not want that to happen, but if you don't know the feeling and you can't use it, I have to imagine you're not going to get to that next level. Absolutely. It's fuel. It is certainly fuel. Okay, thinking about your kids' question when your kids are older and someone innocently asks them, oh, your mom, what was she like? What is she like? And they kind of answer and they say, oh, my mom, she had, how do you hope they finish that sentence? Oh, I love that question. I hope that they'll say that their mom was always very loving, very supportive, very thoughtful. And that, I was someone that always did my best to try to help to set them up to have the best future that they could have. And so in every way, I'm constantly thinking about what do they need now to be able to be successful in the future, whether that's in school or sports or financially, how can I help them to face some of those pitfalls that are going to come? And everything that happens now, my husband, I both try to see it as a lesson for the future. So I hope that they'll say that I was loving, thoughtful kind and always preparing them to be the best versions of themselves in the future. So beautiful. Again, I think a lot about how, at good inside, we talk about to parents being long-term greedy. We want to stay connected to our kid now. Of course, we want these wins, but you're parenting today because you know the impact of parenting on your kids when they're 18 and 38 and 58 when inevitably the stakes are going to be higher than when they're eight, right? And so that I know, I don't know if you think about it this way, being long-term greedy. Besides the opportunities my kids have, it's why I think I really think about that in the moment they're, let's say they're left out of a birthday party or they're struggling with math that I don't tell them, oh, this is great for you. But internally, one of the reasons I think I can stay grounded is I realized, wait, my kid's going to be left out of things for the rest of their life. Or my kid will learn how to read and do math, but they're going to do things the rest of their life that don't come to them immediately or don't come maybe as fast as they do to the person next to them. And if I can stay in this moment and not just fix it and rescue if I, if I can help them get support in the struggle without stealing their competence, that to me is the ultimate long-term greedy perspective. And so I agree. I think your kids don't necessarily say thank you in the moment for it, but I think it's the thing when they're older, they'll be like, oh, that was really good for me. And I'm grateful. Exactly. I want to do, I know there's no official overtime and track and field, but this is over time. So it's the extra race. And so a little bit of rapid fire to kind of wrap us up. Best piece of advice you got in your career. I, the best piece of advice I got was my aunt once told me the brave may fall, but never yield. And if I got to live that every day, like there's failures and stuff, but you just never yield relentless. Any superstition, especially when you were racing, that you like secretly believed, like actually helped you. Yes, it's really silly. But my mom, my mom gave me this like little bullet necklace and she gave to me and I was really young. And she said it was like for me, it was a year faster than a speeding bullet. And so I used to always wear it when I, when I race, like it was like my lucky charm. And I didn't wear it for one race when I was like in high school or something. And I lost. And I was like, I'm never taking this necklace off again. And anyway, I did have some losses with it on. I still always felt like that was kind of my lucky charm. And I wore it my entire career. Love that. The last thing your kid did, one of your kids did, that kind of like knocked you off your rocker, like really kept you humble. Oh, man. So my son, my hero is like obsessed with like, one day getting married and having like a family, like, you know, like your eights, your eight, like slow down. So he comes home and he's like, mom, we have a dance on, you know, coming up, can I can I ask Kelsey to go with me? I'm like, uh, your eights. Like, he's a planner. Yeah, yeah. So he's already okay. And then my husband, I love it, right? Because he sees a loving relationship. So he really wants it already. So I'm like, okay, it's a positive thing. But it's so kind of has me like, I don't know how to feel about this. You're just eight. That's I'm gonna like a date already. I don't know. I love it. These kids, they're advanced. A moment from your career that maybe the cameras didn't catch, but like you hold with a lot of pride. I think it was around 2007 was when I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease call-base shits. So I had really bad like mouth ulcers. I would get skin lesions that look like someone burnt me overnight. It was like really bizarre. And so I remember, you know, some of my training days where I would have such bad ulcers in my mouth, I'd have to like literally run with like a cup in my mouth. So that my my teeth wouldn't scrape against my my jaw. And I remember my coach always saying, you know, like he's like, son, like no one's seeing this right now. But this is the work that you're doing that's going to one day, you know, pay off for that Olympic gold medal. So I'll say that those would be the moments. So that's like one that always comes to my mind is like the stuff that I used to do that nobody knew that I was like really suffering through to still fight towards this dream. I would say that was one of them relentless. And one thing that you would tell parents who have kids in competitive sports today. I would tell them to follow their kids lead. I would say to just ensure that that drive that desire is really coming from, you know, their kid. And and then just do everything that they can to support them. So whether that's doing the research to understand like what that kid might need, what kind of coaching and support, whether it is exposing them to a game like going to professional games they can kind of see and set that big goal really early, you know, experiencing the Olympics together, experiencing it together where they feel like, well, how this is special. And I want to aspire towards doing that. I think it's parents, we can be really creative in how we open up that dream far kids. And so I would say just being present and understanding like where they are and just kind of meeting them there and supporting them in every way so that they they if they if they desire it, they can be great in that sport. I could talk to you forever. I want thank you. This has been I've learned so much. I feel so connected to your so many parts of your story. And I'm just so grateful for this time together. So thank you. Thank you so much. This is really great. I really appreciate it. I got so much out of this conversation, but I can tell you the thing that's loudest in my head. It is the moment her coach said to her after she got the bronze in 2008, I won't allow you to miss this next race. I won't oh, how you this is the essence in my mind of leadership, of seeing goodness, of seeing capability. I think in our hardest moments were desperate for people to see our pain, but we're also desperate for them to see our competence, to see our ability to cope, to have hope for something that inevitably allows us to eventually access that hope as well. That was such a powerful moment in her story. And I know that's something that I try to use to inspire my parenting with my own kids as well. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. Let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Okay, parents, quick check in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule, accept your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time, school emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head, usually moms. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. 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