Sitting With the Hard Stuff: Trauma, Healing, and Finding Peace with Author and Activist Oneika Mays

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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl that's shopify.nl it's time to see what you can accomplish with shopify by your side We are Allie and Erica, certified integrative nutrition health coaches in gut and hormone health and the hosts of the podcast Courageous Wellness. We are committed to destigmatizing conversations in the wellness space and celebrate the experiences and lessons of our guests in pursuit of physical, emotional, and spiritual wellness. Listen to Courageous Wellness wherever you get your podcasts with fresh episodes every Wednesday. Hi, everybody. You are listening to judging Megan with your host, Megan judge. I, I am. I mean, I really am. I know I say this all the time on the podcast. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. It's not the lovely blah. I say it all the time. I've been doing this five and a half years. I am. I really, I truly am more. So I shouldn't use the word excited. I should use the word much needed conversation because of what you do. And Onika, I'm going to introduce you in a second, but I'm going to tell my usual long winded story that people probably tune out. And that's why, you know, maybe they're like over listening to me and my likes and my Valley girl. And I'm just going to put myself down the whole episode. Here's the thing. And I am a mental health podcaster. I don't even know why. I don't even know why anymore, because my own mental health is crumbling by the day so listeners if you're listening um unika if you want to hop off right now it might be appropriate um because i am in the mental health category and health and fitness but lately i i start i'm like joking around a little bit about this but i'm also like what in god's name is happening in our country. Every day I wake up upset. Every day I feel like I'm crumbling even more. And so I really want to reiterate to you listeners, wherever you're listening, if, you know, I've offended you because my platform has gotten, I hate the word political because again, I categorize myself as a humanist more so than that's what I am. I really mean that. It sounds kind of obnoxious, but that's what I consider myself. And I have lately been kind of like, do I want to continue doing this podcast? I've been doing it five and a half years. A lot of it is about like loss, grief, all the things. I try to be positive, but I am, I'm truly having a hard time. And part of me thinks, should I take a break? but then something in me thinks well maybe all of you that listen need this too and you need for me to just be real and if you could power through with me on this I hate using this word journey because it's so like oh but that's what it is it's the real authentic story of what I've been for all of you for the past five and a half years, which is as authentic as I possibly can be. And my authentic self right now is telling you I'm struggling. I'm having a really, really hard time. Poor Anika. Do you want to hop off the podcast right now? No, no, no, no. I want to stay on more than ever now. Okay. Okay. Because you're like, Oh, God, like, sometimes I wonder when people come on and they go, how does this woman do what she does? And why do people listen? I even wonder that myself. Okay, everyone, Onika Mays is not only drop dead gorge physically, I'm looking at her right now. But she's a meditation and yoga guru, I'm going to use the word guru. And her new book is called sit with me a no BS journey to mindfulness and meditation. And it comes out in March of 2020. We're in 2026. Well, it comes out in March, everyone. Hi, Anika. Hi. What do you want to say? Do you want to take a breath? Should we go immediately into downward dog? Do you want to take a deep inhale and exhale before we get started? Yes, please. Let's do it. A listener. Why don't you do it with me? Yeah. You tell us what to do. You go. Yeah. Yeah. room yeah let's just like just shake it out first just shake it out we all got here if you're watching on youtube we're just shaking it out like this is this is the best part and then you can just let yourself settle for a second i think we all need we all need that yeah we do yeah do you have any thoughts on my hot mess intro right now? Do you have anything to say about that? I have all of the things to say. And it's really funny that my book is coming out now because with everything that's going on, there's so many people who are saying like, I'm not really political, but, and you're just talking about being a person and talking about being a human being. And I remember when I did my meditation teacher training, someone said, how do you feel about meditation teachers being political? And I remember I got my backup because I was like, well, what do you mean by political? Because what you call political, I just call Tuesday because, you know, I'm black, I'm queer, I'm a woman. So if I'm just talking from my own experience of being a woman, for example, some people might call that political. If I talk about something that happened in my day and I'm being a meditation teacher and someone's like, well, I don't want to hear about, you know, something that happened to you about somebody being sexist. They might call that political. But if you're just talking about your life, you know, our bodies as women are politicized. So it's not being political. You're just being a person. I mean, I'm going to be honest because I don't understand how people cannot be struggling right now. It's, it really bothers me. I talked to a friend of mine. My last episode I did was with the women that started this South Bay takes a stand with me. And one's Latina, one's like immigrated from South Africa. And then there's me, white as Snow Megan, you know, that I say all the time. I think that more so than ever, we need as white women to use our voices because we let other women down, women of color, I believe. And when I was on like the calls for kamala because i'll be honest with my listeners they know where i stand um and i felt like when she did not win so defeated because i knew that i don't know how i knew i mean the last administration i knew that this was going to happen but i i knew that i have a responsibility as a human being first and foremost to use my my privilege to to speak up you know and and so if the platform or the podcast is going to kind of struggle or i'm going to lose listeners or whatever it is to me i kind of think it's i don't want to say it's worth it but i think it's it is what it is. And I one day, you know, as I get older, I want my daughters that will carry the same privilege that I have to look back and think like, well, my mom did something, you know, and so I think it's really important. And I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am. You know, not only am I sorry that women of color have fought so hard, especially black women to get like, have things happen for everyone, but also I'm, I can't imagine how hard it is to be a woman of color and queer and gay and a gay woman. And then yesterday, you know, again, And like many of my friends are gay and I see Stonewall flag being taken down. Or this morning I woke up in the middle of the night, which I often do, ladies, if you're listening, because you understand these times at one in the morning. And I sat there struggling till three to go back to sleep and, of course, picked up my phone, which is the worst thing you can do. and saw that the funding was cut by 600 million dollars for um hiv and std prevention and and um and research and it's just kind of like thank god you're on and i'm having this long-winded conversation and you're just nodding i'm sorry no i had to say that no it's funny i actually I wrote about this and it's funny when I wrote, when I was writing my book and I wrote about like, if the fighting starts, cause I was writing this book in the, in the aftermath of the election and reading it now with what's going on. I, I, I, I was reading it and having the hair go up on the back of my neck, reading the section where I talk about if the fighting starts and why we just have to keep doing what we're doing. And we have to do it. And it's going to sound corny, but because love matters. And I don't mean that in some sort of corny way. And I don't mean like love in some sort of toxic positivity way. But I mean, love in a very fierce way, love in a way that we hold folks accountable, love in a way that we don't want to cause any more harm, love in a way that we call people in and we also call people out because at some point we're going to have to reckon with ourselves and individually and collectively because we can't keep going. And it's going to be exhausting and it's going to keep going for a while. But the more that people start to wake up, the more that we're going to have to take care of each other. So practices like I'm going to be talking about around loving kindness and meditation and mindfulness are important, but conversations like this are necessary. And for some folks who are just like, who are listening to you, who have been listening to you and who are engaged, who are going to be tired, need this because they're going to need tools to keep going. So they're not like, I'm so tired. I'm just going to give up. So it's necessary. You know, it's, it's necessary to have resources because this is a marathon it's not a sprint these cycles have been going on it's a marathon that i didn't sign up for it's right it's a marathon that like literally if you watch the handmaid's tale or you read it i remember and i've said this before in the podcast i remember thinking that would never happen here. Like what? And then I was thinking, I could say my, this is what I think about all day long. I have to put my phone down. We're going to talk about you. I mean, we're 11 minutes and 40 seconds into the podcast. I said your name, I said what you do, but I've spent the whole time yapping away without asking you, like, where are you from? all the things that I've asked you, but I just think that if I continue doing this podcast and I just have my same format and the same thing, then I'm faking it, you know? And I just thank God I have you on because I think that we have to talk about this. Otherwise I can't continue to do it. I can't just like pretend like, Oh, tell me about your book. Like I'm excited to read your book, PS, your cover is gorge. We already talked about this, but it's not like business as usual. It's not any of us, right? No. Um, let me tell you something from my book that I think relates to what's going on. Um, I wrote, we want to, why do we want to do this? Why do we want to love each other? And we want to do it because love matters. I'm tired of pretending that it doesn't. The world is coming apart at the seams. I'm not just talking about the polarizing events that are happening around the world. I'm talking about the way that we talk to one another. I worry that we will reach a place where we will not come back, where the threads of our shared humanity become so frayed that we will no longer recognize ourselves in each other's eyes. But here's my deepest fear, that if the fighting starts, as it has in so many places, no one will care what names were on your bumper sticker or what flag you've displayed. We will all just be trying to survive. Being at Rikers felt like this because I taught at Rikers. I think that it's partly why I freeze when I watch the news because I've been here before. Maybe I'm jumping ahead because we aren't at war and I don't want one. There's a part of me that's terrified to write these words down for fear of not being seen as righteous enough But we are here And I wrote this last year Holy crap So I was crying by the way Shocker Because I cry all the time So it so I here for a reason and it good that I here and we talking about this because we are here but we want to do this because it matters and you're changing your format or you're having this conversation because it matters and we have to figure out a way forward and it's difficult conversations. It's remembering that you're rooted in love. It's remembering that you want the world to change. It's also remembering that we've been here before. And maybe not everybody remembers that we've been here before, but other people have remembered that we've been here before. Indigenous folks have remembered that we've been here before. Other people have remembered that we've been here before. And everybody's kind of just catching up and that's okay. Like there's no, we have to not shame people for catching up now, but we're all just here now. We're all just going to figure out a way forward. And for folks that don't want to believe that this is real, you can't worry about that either. You just can't. And you just have to focus on who is here now and who is going forward. And we'll all just collectively rally around that. And we all just have to figure out how to not keep, we have to stop harm from happening. And if other people aren't on board, not everybody's going to come with us. And that's just the reality. And you just have to accept that. And how are we going to take care of each other? Because the world is crumbling right now. And there's something good about that. There's something good about the veil being lifted. There's something good about billionaires being upset that they are being exposed. Because when a new world is happening, it's painful and it's hard and it's ugly. And when something is dying, the death throes happen and we see that happening. but something beautiful can arise from that. And why don't we start having the conversations of what does something new look like? So let's have those conversations and let's figure out what a new way forward looks like. I love that. Also, I love what you wrote that you knew this. I mean, my, I mean, I'm going to talk, my husband knew this, like he was telling me, he tells me all the time. I was telling you this was going to happen for a while. He's able to like kind of tune it out because he was so like shaken in the first administration i was too but now he's like i knew this was going to happen and i think it's important you know once i'm going to talk about like a whole story we're 16 minutes in but i think listeners this is important because you're right i think the pendulum has to swing and and also i think about this at one o'clock in the morning often um there was so much hidden like faking right like oh because i remember like when obama won and i was like yay we're here you know when obama won yeah everyone's like everyone's like this everything's everyone's equal and then and then meanwhile it's like no no no everyone is not and it made it worse but people were still like hiding behind not being able to go out in the street and take their cell phone and go up to somebody that's latina and say take out their phone and say i'm calling ice like that never would have happened and that's what's happening now is like the this stuff is like come to a boiling point where people think it's okay So like what you just said, I think the pendulum, this had to kind of happen, right? I knew when Obama won, of course, I was thrilled and excited. But I remember saying and I remember these conversations were being had, you know, with friends of mine. I was like, the bottom's about to fall out because no one's going to be there. A lot of people who are not going to be OK. And people are there's there's going to be backlash. um there's absolute we knew like a lot of people knew there was going to be backlash and this is this is the backlash um it's it's horrific i'm so sorry i've taken up so much time because i want to find out about you and where you're from and like you know all the amazing things that you've done in your work and but i do hope that listeners you listen to this and if you are feeling have the hard conversations. Don't you think Anika? I think we need to have the hard conversations. But you are talking about me too though. So I don't, I don't like, let's make that clear. Like this is me, you know, um, this is me. This is what I do. These are the conversations that, that I do have as well. I mean, these are, this is, this is me. This is my body. This is who I am. You know, like my body has been politicized. Like this is, this is us being human and having these conversations like you are sitting with me right now like this is well thank god you came on because I was ready to like I was ready to be like judging Megan is over like I don't want to do this anymore because I feel a lot of hopelessness so it's so thank you I mean like I say this all the time everything I hate a lot of people hate when people say everything happens for a reason but i do believe most of my guests that i interview come on exactly when i'm supposed to have them on and so this thank god for beth grossman introducing us she's like a character on the podcast at this point because i love her so much and i've been working with her for years i love it so audience listeners you probably know because i talk about beth all the time she is a publicist that's become my dear friend that sends me guests often and i'm obsessed with her. Okay. Let's go here now. Tell me, tell me about you. Tell me about where you're from. Um, and why, why you kind of got to this place. I know you've gone through a lot of hard things in your life, but I just want to find like the backstory on how you got there. Yeah. I found yoga and meditation sort of the long way around. I, um, I had the, the bottom sort of fall out in my life. I had like a personal tragedy, tragedy, someone who I loved died really unexpectedly and tragically. And I didn't know how to deal with that grief. And I think at the same time, I just was really uncomfortable in my own skin. And while I had tried yoga in the past and liked it, but wasn't ready to embrace it because I was repressing grief and made some really bad decisions because of that, I found myself back on a yoga mat and decided to change my life because of it. And it changed everything for me. And I found yoga and then I found meditation and then wanted to share that. And I decided that I wanted to volunteer at Rikers Island. And then I started doing that for several years. And then I was offered an opportunity to work at Rikers Island Correctional Facility in New York full time. And I became a mindfulness coach. So I worked with people one-on-one inside Rikers Island jail. And that really changed my life in a lot of different ways. But I think going on a spiritual journey to find myself was, was a big deal. I, I think I was, I was always sort of living my life on, on two sides. Like I was either going a hundred miles an hour or doing absolutely nothing. And I think a lot, I create a lot, a lot of drama in my life because I didn't want to deal with myself. I didn't want to deal with who I was for a lot of different reasons. And when I found a spiritual path, I found the strength to sort of sit with who I was and to be comfortable with all of the things I was uncomfortable about with myself and to face some hard things that because I was uncomfortable with myself, I didn't always do kind things. I was sometimes really mean. I was sometimes closed off and uncomfortable. And then when I realized that a spiritual practice could open up my heart, I wanted to change my life and be a different person. Or maybe the person I had always been and was just afraid to sort of show my heart. And working at Rikers made me recognize that that love was a better way forward than being closed off. Can I ask you, I'm sure you get this all the time. I'm sure you talk about this in the book, but what what is it like? Because that's a high, high security prison, right? Like it's a yeah, it's a jail. So so the difference. So this is maybe interesting for for listeners. So prison is when you get convicted and then you're serving like a long sentence. Jail is where you go when you get arrested and you're awaiting trial or you're serving like a year or less. So Rikers is one of the largest jails in the country, aside from L.A. County Jail, Cook County Jail in Chicago, and then jail in Miami. So it's one of the largest jails in the country. It is high security. It is known for being violent. It's the jail that you always see when you're watching Law & Order. So that's why most people know it. It's intense. It's known for being violent. And it's just, it's, yeah, it's a sad place. It's, I think it's more sad than scary. What was the people that go in that you dealt with? Like originally you said you went into volunteer. Did you, like, I think so many times people that end up on that side and correct me, cause I don't know. I mean, I believe that everybody should have a second chance and a rehabilitation and all the things. But did you find that there, the practice of like meditation and yoga, you started to see a shift in the people that were in these situations and giving them a chance to learn this practice and changing is, or you can you talk about that? Yeah. So, um, I think there's two sides. So I volunteered for six years and worked there full time. So I think there's life was sort of different for me teaching as a full-time person and as a volunteer. And I think for folks who were on the island, I would say about 80% of the people who are on Rikers Island are black and brown. A lot of people who are there are there because black and brown communities are over-policed. So some people are there because of circumstance. Some people are there because of the crimes that have been committed. And most of them are there awaiting trial. So they've been accused of something. So they aren't even really convicted of something. So I think that's sort of important to note, too, that if they had the money to afford bail, they might not even be there. And there you'd be surprised at the number of people who had already had yoga practices and mindfulness practices who are who are already there. And a lot of people who I met there would be people who I would actually even talk to on the street, to be honest with you. So you meet a lot of different kind of people. A lot of the officers wanted meditation and yoga, but too, because of the stress, there were some people who really embraced the practice and who wanted to do it. There were some people who thought it was stupid and didn't want to do it at all. And when I volunteered, I taught like a lot of group classes. So in a lot of ways, it was like teaching at a yoga studio with a lot more talking in between, which made it more fun than teaching in a yoga studio. And when I worked there full time, I worked with people one-on-one, so I had my own office. So it was more like having my own like mindfulness practice. So the conversations were definitely more intense and intimate. And I was getting a lot more stories and holding a lot more space. So it was a lot more intense, especially because I was working in the women's facility then, too. So I was hearing a lot of trauma, like a lot of trauma. So it was really just as varied as the many people. I've probably seen thousands of people over the years that I've been there. um so it's like a thousand different stories that i could tell you um people and it's a it's so it's sorry to say this but it's so um it's so true that so many of these people were just are just targeted and maybe like like drug offenses right like oh a lot like minor things that like i would be not put away for right but they're sitting there and then cut to like the Epstein, you know, like I can't help but think about that right now. What with we were talking about earlier. Yep. You know, like recently, I'm, I'm a bit I'm a big fan of Don Lemon, and I follow him. And I, I was that happened to be that morning, watching the Minnesota stream. I watched the whole thing, by the way, because I've watched him since he was on CNN. And then I've been following him on his independent journey. And I watched him going to church that day. I think I talked about this the last podcast, but he was talking about recently that whole thing about how so many people are just put in jail and they're just like sitting there wasting their lives away when we're, you know, there there's people that are in this child trafficking sex trafficking rings and are just walking free and making money and running companies. It's just it makes no sense. Yeah. What was really terrible was during covid when all of the courts were closed and people's time would stop. It wasn't clocked because the courts were closed. So that time didn't count. Yeah. What? So they they didn't. OK, so they would just be sitting in jail because you're eating because i didn't know that yeah um and so a lot of these people were just stuck stuck yeah it's heartbreaking i i think when we when you talk about the practice of meditation or yoga or all of this stuff i don't understand i mean i i personally have had a very hard life and a very hard childhood with abuse and loss I lost my dad my my listeners know my sister my little sister my best friend Um so and it was hard but I think about how many people have gone through way worse things but I cannot do the meditation and the yoga because I have so much anger that's still bubbling up. And it struck me with what you said in the beginning or midway, because we talked for so along in the beginning, um, about you weren't always a good, you didn't say, I don't know if you use the word good person, but you were angry and you didn't always like, like yourself. Didn't you say something along those lines? Yeah, I didn't. And I wasn't always kind. I mean, yeah, thank you. Yeah, I wasn't. I, I, it doesn't shame me anymore. I mean, I still feel plenty of shame around things, but I'm okay talking about it because, because I didn't like myself and I've had sexual trauma in my past too. And I, you know, I talk about this in the book that, um, I had suicide ideation and I spent some time in a, in a hospital, um, and, and, and really did a lot of work to, to get to, to quote unquote, get better, um, and, and figure out a lot of stuff. and through all of that, I was like, okay, well, how am I going to move forward? And how am I going to take care of myself? And what is this going to look like? And meditation isn't always the answer for everybody. And I say that as a meditation teacher. Like there were plenty of times when I would meet somebody at Rikers and we would talk first. I'd be like, you know, so like these are, you know, people would come see me and it was usually around like insomnia or somatic issues because beds in jail are terrible and people had aches and pains or anxiety. And we would talk about meditation or yoga. And some people would say like, I don't wanna meditate, this isn't working for me. I'd be like, okay, great, we know you don't like that. So let's not do that. And let's try something else. Like maybe it's just some kind of movement that you wanna do or let's do something that works for you because meditation may not be the thing, but let's find the thing that you can go inside with to get in touch with yourself. because everybody, you know, there's this thing in the wellness world where everybody thinks that they have to do that one thing that's going to heal somebody. And I just think that's nonsense. And I think we have to start having conversations where people understand that they can find the safe place inside themselves, but you can't force things on people. But we have to give people opportunity to find the tools that are going to work for them. So I wasn't the mindfulness coach to make everybody do mindfulness. I wanted people to find the safety inside themselves because there are no safe places and certainly not at Rikers. Like I wasn't gonna have people say like, I was their safe place at Rikers because an officer could come in at any time and do anything or somebody could bust into the office and cause a fight. Like I wasn't a safe place. So I was just trying to teach people to like, where can you be safe inside yourself? Maybe it was meditation. Maybe it was yoga. Maybe it was just a conversation with me and they could learn how to talk to themselves better. you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. I think that the part that struck me that with what you just said too, is if you're surrounded by all this unsafe stuff, like right now, the noise, like the constant barrage of, you know, even if you want, I'm a perfect example. I don't know how many episodes I've done on meditation and I always say I can't do yoga and I can't meditate because my brain is always like blah like I'm I have ADHD I'm making all these excuses I can't do it I don't have the patience I don't this I don't that and when you just said that I don't know honestly if it's that I don't like myself that much and I don't want to, I don't want to sit with myself sometimes, you know? And I think it's brave that you talked about that because I have, I also am very honest and I've said this to my listeners. I by no means do this podcast to be like, I know everything. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a therapist. And I have a podcast that people listen to. Lord knows why. Because I think I just I'm like, I'm heavily flawed. I'm I can be full of shit. I give people the middle finger in carpool. And I told a girl that I like hated her and she was ugly like a couple of months ago because she was somebody which really mean to me. But I mean, why not? Like, you know, like, but then I can't sit with that later on and meditate. Right. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I teach. I actually say I teach what I need to learn. I mean, yeah. And and I don't know if there's plenty of teachers who might take issue with that. But but I don't care. Yeah, exactly. But exactly. I think that's my point of I teach what I need to learn. And I also don't think that meditation is not about having a quiet mind. It's about making peace with the mind that you have. Like, that's what it's about. Like, it's not about my mind is always going. It is always going. I am thinking about what I'm going to eat when we're done right now. Like, I'm hungry and I'm already I'm thinking about that as we're talking right now. And that's OK, because that's that's me. Like, I'm OK with that. I'm no longer thinking like I am flawed because that's who I am. And that's what my practice has actually taught me. Like, don't fight who you are. Learn. My practice has taught me I don't meditate to feel great. I meditate to be with whatever is going on in my life. I've learned that my practice helps me live my life and not sort of change it because my life is going to be whatever my life is. so I might as well learn how to respond to it. But so I'm not reacting to it. I used to react to everything around me all of the time. And the reactions were really crappy all of the time. Because it hurts you and not the other person. So if you're, you know, and I sit with that too, but that's why I love the title of your book when you say it's no BS. Like you're really, you're being the authentic self when there's so many yoga teachers or meditation people that are that, you know, you see them and they're like, so Zen and everything's gone. And then you see them and they're in the grocery store, like having a fight with, you know, there's like, it's the hypocrisy of all of it. So it's, that's why I think you're so great. And you're the title. We're going to talk about the book right now is, is important because it's talking about you can do the practice you can do these things and you might not change overnight and you might never change you might never change you're all work in progress no like yeah no because I talk about things and you know my partner's not here right now but I know sometimes I'm talking about things and they're she's like yeah okay I saw her this morning but you should meet my husband he says that all the time he's like god i wish if i if i were married to judging megan and not megan judge right right because this morning we had a fight and i was like you're such a jerk you know like that's being human though yes but exactly but that's i think that's so important and i actually didn't participate a whole lot in like the yoga world or the meditation world because I didn't fit in. I think I'm, I'm glad though. Cause I, I started teaching yoga. I'm 54 now, but I started teaching like right when I turned 40. So I was, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't interested in sort of that sort of Instagram yoga life and any of that kind of stuff. And, and that wasn't me because I didn't want to, I didn't want to do that. I had already lived a life and I was more interested how the practice saved my life and made me enjoy it. And I wanted to teach from that place. And, and, and I believe that the practice really helped me. And when I went to yoga teacher trainings and I would, I appreciated the practices and the text and what I was studying and when I would push back and say, well, but it says this and people would give me like this whitewashed version of what they were saying. I'm like, but that's not, but that's not my experience. I didn't want to participate in that world. So I kind of purposely stayed away, which is why teaching at Rikers like felt, I was like, I'd rather be here. You know, this is, this is where the yoga is. Like this is, this is what it's about. Cause yoga is really about justice. You know, there's a saying that a lot of yoga teachers say, may all beings everywhere be happy and free. And they say it like it's this like toxic positivity thing. But if you really say, think about it, may all beings everywhere be happy and free. It means that people aren't happy and free everywhere and we should do something about that. So that means we should be activists. It means that we should be freeing people. It means that we should be calling out the injustices in the world. And that's what yoga should really be about. And it's not really about whether you can do a handstand or not. Well, I also think what you do, what you took from that. And again, it's never too late. Like 40 to me, I'm like, whatever. I mean, also you look, you're like, look really, I hate you because you don't have a wrinkle on your face. I'm sorry. But I love that you, you did something that was purpose, like had purpose behind it. I taught like purpose driven life, right? How good do you feel knowing that you touched somebody's life that grew up and had the horrible, I can't even imagine the people you met and what they went through. And it must have been really fulfilling for you to do that. And at the end of the day, as much as hard as it probably was, you could walk out and be like, maybe what I did maybe might have helped one person today. I think that part of it's important, don't you think? And yeah, yes. Individually, I think in some ways. And it was hard in other ways because I'm an abolitionist. Like, I don't believe that prisons and jails should exist the way that they do. Like, they shouldn't. They hurt people. And so it was really hard to get paid and to have health insurance and vacation days and to get a decent salary and to go into that place every day. I felt guilt. I felt a lot of guilt doing that and being able to to do what I loved and to and to do that, getting paid to be in that place, knowing that I was giving people something. But in some ways, sometimes I felt like, am I only helping people so they can bear this system better? Like sometimes I wasn't sure, like, am I helping them only deal with this trauma a little better? Or am I helping people long term? So I would, it was a lot to hold. There was some complexity there. And then longer term, I felt like, am I making Rikers look better because I'm doing this work? And it's ultimately why I left. Because people hear what you do and they're like, oh, that's great. Like, that's so cool. Come talk to me about it. And I'm like, Rikers is still really bad. Like, I need you all to know that it's really bad. But then I was like, people are like, well, how bad could it be? There's like a mindfulness coach. And I worked with an acupuncturist too, who's amazing and a wellness coach. So it's like, well, how bad could Rikers be if there's acupuncture and if there's wellness and if there's meditation? And ultimately I could no longer feel like I was participating in that. So I left, but somebody still needed to do it. So there's this incredible person who does it now. So she does my job. And I don't think we should all do this by ourselves, right? Like people need to keep doing it until there's a better way to be doing all of this, right? Because people still need to be accountable for when something goes wrong. And, you know, we need to think about restorative justice and transformative justice. If somebody harms somebody, how do we do all of that? It's another conversation for another time. But in the Meanwhile, if there is a Rikers, we need to be taking care of folks. So it's a hard conversation. I think that that's him. I mean, I never really would have thought about that until you just said that of the pain of feeling like you're working so hard to make a difference and then just kind of stuck because it's not going to evolve and change. It's almost like my sister is a high school teacher. She's taught for 30 years. I'm obsessed with my older sister and so proud of her. And, you know, she's grading papers like 24 hours a day. It can be kind of thankless sometimes I think for her because every holiday she grading papers and doing all this stuff and kind of like can feel like she stuck I mean it a very minor like I shouldn even compare it to what you do, but at the end of the day, it's like, well, we're going to keep doing this and I'm going to try and like better these kids. But at the end of the day, does it, do I really make a difference? I know it's like a totally different scale, but it just kind of reminded me of you get to a point and the burnout, all the things, even though you were in the space of meditation and yoga and all of that, it's a valid point. Yeah. Yeah. The burnout was it was hard because, you know, that for a period of time, like I, I, I went to solitary confinement and I used to like work in there. And. I think that was part of my breaking point. I'm like, why am I teaching meditation to people in solitary confinement? Like, this just seems like what? This is stupid. Like, how does this help anybody? Like, what am I doing? Like, this isn't bringing, is this bringing anybody any peace? Like, am I just torturing somebody? But like, it didn't start to make sense to me. Like, I was really questioning my own sanity and my own soul. it was it was a lot to think about it was it was it was a lot to think about and it really started to wear on me like this might not be okay and you know based on sort of my own principles and and the dharma that I follow and with Buddhism I'm like looking at it from a broader perspective I'm like the work that we started felt radical in the beginning but once you do it long enough it starts to become part of the system. And I was like, I don't know anymore. Yeah. And then I think it's important that you, you know, if something's not serving you anymore, you walk away. So tell me about the book, because I want to know what inspired you to write the book. I got inspired even when I was first volunteering, because I would post I used to volunteer with a nonprofit with a bunch of incredible other yoga teachers, and we would go in and we would teach these classes and I wanted people to know what it was like on the inside. So I would come out and write a post about what the class was like. And, you know, we would change the names of everybody, but we would write this post about what the class was like. And every time I would post, people would say like, you need to write a book about this. Like, this is really incredible. And I would say like, okay. And eventually I, you know, after working there full time and, and posting, And I eventually was like, OK, well, maybe I should write about a book about this. And then, you know, a friend of mine was also like, you don't think it's incredible that you had this corporate job for 20 years and now you're like at Rikers, like maybe you should put it all together. And and so I did. And so the book is about it's partial memoir about my own journey and how I figured out how to love myself. It's partially about working at Rikers. And it's also a field guide for people who have felt alone or felt judged. And it's about loving kindness because that's my main practice. It's metta, which it's the Pali word for loving kindness. It's a Buddhist practice. And it's about unconditional love. So it's not just sort of like love that has conditions. It has no expectations. And that's a practice that I live and also teach as a meditation. So it's also a field guide for people to to learn how to do that. Can you tell me for the sake of time, because I could talk to you, I say this a lot, too. I really mean it, though. So if you're listening, you're like, oh, God, I could talk to you all day. I really mean it because I really could talk to you all day and I would like for you to come visit me. You live in New York. Yeah, I live in Jersey City, right across from Manhattan. Oh, I know where that is. Okay. I, for a brief like blurb of my young life when I was trying to, I was trying to be an actress when I was young, I would take the subway from Connecticut to New York. And so I know, I remember seeing Jersey city. Yeah. So anyway, um, tell me like the biggest takeaway. Why, why would somebody want to read your book of all the books? They could go to Barnes and Noble and get all the books. Not only is your book cover beautiful, because I told you that already, but why your book? Because if you're feeling lost and alone and you want to figure out how you're going to figure out how to get forward and move forward in the world that we're in right now, this is the book for you to do it with. I think, too, just talking to you and without reading it, which I can't wait to read it, is it's it seems you're you. I right away can tell when somebody is full of it. I just can. I have a pretty good bullshit meter with people. And I let I love that you're very authentic. And, and not like, like, woo, woo, like meditation, yoga. That's what I think more people need right now. And I even say in the book, like, meditation may not be for you. And I hope you find whatever is for you. But if it's meditation, I have a meditation for you. But if not, I pray that you find the thing that is for you. Maybe it's a walk in the park. Maybe it's a song that you love. So, yeah. And is there something specific? You know, I tell my listeners a lot that I left. I live by the beach. I know it's cold where you live right now. Did you see me get sad? I was like, I know you looked at me and you were like, I was like, I hate to brag, but I walked by the beach today. It was beautiful. But it's my the ocean is my I could never be away from it. It brings me great, great joy and peace and happiness. And so my thing is I walk. I love to walk. I love animals. I love my dogs. They've been walking behind us this whole recording. and that's what brings me happiness that's my own meditation because I can't I have a hard time sitting still like we talked about what what is your biggest thing that you do in these times to kind of like bring yourself down I listen to music a lot Stevie Wonder in particular I love Stevie Wonder. Stevie Wonder gives me a lot of joy, a lot of joy. Dancing gives me a lot of joy these days, too. And riding my Peloton gives me a lot of joy. Sometimes you just have to like, I cry on my Peloton's not a lot. I had it. This is a side note. And obviously not an advertiser for Peloton. because if I was, I would be fired. I have a Peloton in my room and it's a coat hanger. It's just, I never use it. And I think it's because I used to be a SoulCycle girl. So I was, yeah. So you're either, I've heard you're either one or the other. Yeah, you're one or the other. Yeah, I never went to SoulCycle. I like to be, I like the music. I like the dancing. It was like dancing on a bike and Peloton. also I felt like whenever I was on my Peloton I could cheat and be like do I really want to listen to Cody right now? I'm just going to sit down and if you do Peloton you understand who Cody is, right? Do you do Cody's class? I like Hannah, I'm a Hannah person Oh, I remember Hannah Yeah Anyways, I'm sorry to digress and go in a weird direction If you don't know Peloton, people don't know what we're talking about but Cody's okay my friends like Cody but I'm a Hannah Frankson person like I like the British I like the folks in London okay well I mean I I wanted to leave the listeners with that because I do think sorry I mean this this episode you're probably like back I love it I where did you send me this is this is right up my alley listeners I do think in all seriousness like also we we, we have to laugh right now. We do. That's another thing. Like I watch Saturday Night Live every week. I, I, I do think I watch TV that brings me happiness. I'm no longer can stomach. Like I was such a housewives fan. I was such like a Bravo. I still love Bravo, but I can't see like anything that's going to make my blood boil i just want to laugh so that's another thing i think personally that i do but i just i i think what you've brought today to me in particular and hopefully listeners is is like hope right that even in like we'll bring up like the people that were in jail, like you must have brought so much hope to those people that they were, they wanted to be listened to, or you were an ear and that there's always hope and help. And from one, from one person to another, I also struggled with suicidal ideations and, and I'm very upfront and honest with it. And I think right now our mental health in this country is just like people are losing any hope and I just yeah I have to be reminded that there is hope and there's so many of us that are that are care I think there's more of us that care and we'll be on the right side of history than there are on the other side and I hate to say sides because I don't think it's ever too late. Like you said in the beginning, I wasn't always so kind. And I said to you, I'm still not always so kind, but you, but you can change that, right? Yeah. And, and you're, and it's not, it's not like a, a binary thing. You know what I mean? Like sometimes people are going to disagree. I say a lot that you don't have to like people to love them. Like, we need to remember that. We are so obsessed with trying to agree with everybody all of the time about everything. And that is what I think gets us into so much trouble. There are certain things we have to agree upon. Do not get me wrong. There are certain things that are non-negotiable. But there are plenty of things that we have lost this ability to have conflict. We have lost the ability to understand nuance. And it is really, really, I think, killing communities. I think it's really hurting our ability to be in community. Like, it's okay to argue. It doesn't mean the end of the world. And I don't have to like you to not want you to get hurt. I don't. Yeah. yeah I I'm gonna say one thing in closing because I did talk about that march that we did a couple weeks ago and I looked out I was standing on this platform and I looked out at all these people and they had the signs and everybody looked different you know and it makes me emotional because I just thought to myself, this is like, this is beautiful. Like for the rest of my life, I'm going to remember this moment because it was that touching that people showed up for each other and cared. And so I think like, I have to remember moments like that, like these little glimmers that we have or like our conversation today is a little glimmer because it's like two women that are totally different and totally different backgrounds right but we're sitting here and we're connecting as human beings and if there was like more of this with everyone then i think like maybe the world would just be like a teeny bit better and yeah people wouldn't we wouldn't have the the current issues going on it's like people are being brainwashed and told certain things i say this all the time you know i have family members that are trump supporters and that's really really hard for me because i'm like please turn off fox news because you're being brainwashed right now like please turn it off they're not being honest with you but like some of the things like read, take a walk, talk to somebody that's different than you or has a different story. Because honestly, that's why full circle I do this podcast. I am selfish that I love, love, love, love talking to people like you that are different than me and have different stories because what we have in common has like brightened my whole day. So thank you for that. Thank you. Truly, truly. I mean it. Okay. Where, where can people find you? They can find me on Instagram at Onika Maze. They can find me on Substack at Onika Maze. You can find me on Facebook at Onika Maze and you can find me at my website at OnikaMaze.com. I mean, that's, we made it simple. So thank you for that. I really did. um oh nika okay so tell me also the name of the book and when exactly it comes out is it out for pre-order can people yes people can pre-order the book wherever you um buy your books you can pre-order the book the book is called sit with me a nobius journey to mindfulness and meditation wherever you order your books order it you can order the um audio book as well requested at your library too. Like, you know, just. God, I love a library. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I mean, you really helped me today. So I can't thank you enough for that. Everyone, keep going. You matter. Your story matters. Thanks, Onika. Judging Megan with Megan Judge. Thank you.