What happens when you start eating healthy?

Welcome to Zoe Science and Nutrition, where world leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health. The new year feels full of potential, fresh routines, ambitious plans and a quiet promise to ourselves. This year will be different. For many of you listening to this podcast, your focus is making lasting changes to your diet to improve how you feel, how you look and how many more healthy years you live. But setting big ambitions is easy. Following through is the tricky part. So to give you the biggest boost on achieving this year's resolutions, we're doing something we've never done before. We're bringing on two everyday people who started their journey two years ago to show you what's possible. Just once you can see the goal, it's much easier to score. In today's episode, I'm joined by Becky Tucker and Mark Payne. Two individuals we found by putting out a call to our community. Each of them has spent the past two years consistently putting Zoe Nutrition's principles into practice. Through busy seasons, stressful weeks, celebrations, setbacks, life and somewhere along the way, both of them hit a moment where everything changed, where becoming people who simply eat well became part of their identity. In this conversation, we'll learn how they stayed motivated and on track, and the lessons learned and strategies used for work for them and the unexpected ways that everything changed. If you're trying to make a change this year, or trying to stay committed to one, perhaps today's episode could be the spark you need. We're not doing this alone. In our fully packed studio today, our Professor Tim Spector and Professor Sarah Berry, two of the world's leading experts on gut health and nutrition science, here to explain the science behind Becky and Mark's success and how Zoe's principles can support long-term health in the real world. Becky and Mark, happy new year and thank you both for joining me today. Thank you. Great to be here. And Sarah and Tim, thanks for being here and I hope you didn't overindulge last night. Oh, I'm such a good girl, Jonathan. It's Tim that was on the tequila. There's far too many. Shouldn't be telling secrets. So Becky and Mark, I think you know this, but we have a tradition here at Zoe on the podcast where we always start with a quick-fire round of questions. And we ask you to give us a yes or a no or a one-sentence answer if you have to. You willing to give it a go? Definitely. Sure. All right. So, Becky, in your experience, do diet plans work? Yes and no. They work in the short term and then they absolutely do not. Mark, can you transform how you feel by changing what you eat? Yes. Tim, to lose weight, should you count calories? Absolutely not. Sarah, can food affect your mood? Absolutely yes. Mark, is it possible to eat healthily without feeling restricted? Yes. Mark and Becky, to both of you, what's one belief about health or food you no longer hold? I previously thought that what we were being told by big food companies was correct and I no longer believe that. I would say that fat is not bad. Some is, some's good, some's in the middle. That was a big revelation for me. Thank you both so much for coming in. We always have all of these scientists on the show but we thought it would be great on New Year's Day to do something a little different and almost turn it around because so many listeners today are embarking on a change. They've made some sort of resolution. This is day one of trying to do it and we thought it would be really great actually to have two people who've been on a health journey with changing their diet that you sustained for a few years now to share what works and the pitfalls and also to recognize that it's not an easy thing to make these habit changes and you've both tried a lot of things in the past as well. First of all, Becky, would you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, sure. I'm Becky and I live in Poole in Dorset, so nice sunny location right by the beach which is really lovely too. Good for well-being, good for health. On January 1st, 2023, I joined the queue to become a Zoe member at that time that you had to kind of put your name down and get your space. And so I waited and on the 6th of March, 2023, it is a sliding door moment in my life. I did my testing. But I guess what took me to that point was a very, very long journey of trying lots and lots of other programs and diets because I struggled with my weight. My weight fluctuated right from having my son at 17 through to 2023, I guess. And that is a journey through lots of diet plans that didn't work for me. My quick-fire round question when I said, yes, there are diets that work. Yes, there are. You can absolutely lose weight. Can you maintain that weight? Absolutely not. It's really, really difficult. I lived off of a diet of artificial sweeteners because that gave me the little bit of pleasure in the tiny amount of food that I was allowed to eat, which actually fought against everything that worked for me. I later found out as part of Zoe. When did you first try this first plan you're talking about? I started my life trying Weight Watchers and I was 18. I just had my son and I had put on that normal kind of pregnancy, post-pregnancy weight and was struggling to get it off. I'd seen my mum actually do Weight Watchers for almost all of her life as well, up and down with weight. All right, when you're on it because you can do it in real life, you can't maintain it. And you're eating rubbish, essentially, to be able to have a little tiny bit of pleasure from life. And by that, it probably isn't pleasure like I know it today in terms of food because I've always enjoyed food and I still enjoy food. That's really part of what Zoe gives you, I think, is that sense that you can eat food and you can eat real food and still maintain the weight that I've done for over two years. So from my perspective, yes, I've tried Weight Watchers, I've tried Slimming World, I've tried calorie counting, all of those. Peck, have I asked a question that my mum would tell me I'm definitely not allowed to ask? Would you be able to share how old you are today? Yes, absolutely. I'm 51. So that's a long journey. So you're saying like throughout this period was just a constant cycle of going on to a diet plan and coming off without it working? Yeah, absolutely. At the starting point of Zoe to now, I very quickly realised that it was a natural byproduct, the losing weight actually. I didn't do it to lose weight at that point. I did it because I'd recently read some books that had kind of made me think, oh, actually there's more to diet than just what calories you eat. And Mark, could you tell us a bit about your story? Sure. So my name is Mark. I'm a property lawyer. I've always been interested in food and felt that it's important to your health. My mother was a nurse and brought us up that way. I've never had a sweet tooth. I've never snacked. I don't eat cakes, biscuits, etc. I also felt a little bit overweight, but for me, the Zoe journey was less about weight and more about health. The other thing that happened was I read Tim's book Spoonfaird and found it really fascinating. And this point about, you know, never knowing what's really healthy or isn't, is salt healthy or isn't it, is coffee healthy or isn't it? It can drive you mad if you care about that. And then Zoe came along. I was a bit later than you and I had to go on the waiting list to join Zoe and do the tests. I got the results in August 2023. So what really shocked me was the blood fat bad reading. And I was so upset because I was looking at a life where I wouldn't be able to eat bread, pasta, red meat, all these things I loved like bacon and steak and things, fish and chips. It seemed to me as though three quarters of my diet was really unhealthy for me now. But at the same time, part of me realized I had to do this. So I started on the journey and I'm not someone who does things by halves. If I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to do it properly. And I've done it ever since. Now the first two months were fascinating because first of all, I lost seven kilos, which was helpful because I was a bit overweight. I have stayed that same way ever since because I feel I've eaten incredibly healthily following Zoe for over two years since then. It was quite amazing, but I got far more energy. My skin's better. I felt transformed actually and I was quite skeptical by the way. I was wanting to see evidence and it was really for me the other way round. The evidence was bombarding me. It was obvious this thing was working. And that's why I've kept it ever since. Sarah, do these sorts of stories sound familiar to you before even coming to Zoe? There's a lot of misinformation when it comes to nutrition. From toxic diet culture to a broken food system, it's no wonder so many of us feel stuck, overwhelmed or misled and not as healthy as we want to be. If you feel like you've tried everything to improve your health and still don't know who's advice to follow, it's time to listen to your gut. After eight years spent measuring 300,000 gut profiles, Zoe has released a brand new app and gut health test to show you exactly what your body needs to thrive and to help you build healthy eating habits that actually stick. With AI food tracking, you simply snap a photo of your meal to get personalized insights into how your food will impact your body. You can even identify which processed foods in your fridge are high risk for your health and which aren't a worry. The app will help you eat more mindfully, allowing you to track progress with daily diet feedback from your in-app AI nutrition coach. Along with the app, your gut health test can tell you how to improve your gut microbiome with personalized advice to help you support your gut function and help increase your abundance of good gut bugs. This isn't the latest quick fix, miracle plan or crash diet, likely to make you feel worse than when you started. This is a personalized nutrition app and gut health test backed by real clinical results and the world's largest nutrition study. Ready to join the gut health revolution? Go to zoe.com Yeah, absolutely. I mean, starting with Becky first, this cycle of losing weight, putting it back on, losing weight, going through these processes of calorie restricted diets that work exactly like she said in the short term, but not in the long term. We know that there's very clear evidence that 50% of people who go on calorie restricted diets put all the weight back on within a few years, 70% within five years. It's not a sustainable method of weight loss and it's not a healthy method of weight loss either. Our bodies work so hard to maintain the weight that you're at by as soon as you restrict your calories, increasing your desire for food, increasing your appetite, reducing your metabolic rate. And so that's why we really focus at Zoe on the quality of the calories and not the quantity of calories and why weight loss, just like with Mark, tends to be a byproduct of that. And what I loved is what Mark said about how he felt because this is something that I think is great through changing your diet, how people feel better. So not only has some of his clinical measures potentially improved, it's the fact that you said you feel even more energy, you feel better mood, etc. And I think that's the story with hearing more and more from people following the Zoe program who when they were consuming their previous diet, it was just the normal way of feeling on their diet. They didn't realize there's a better way to feel. And Tim, why have we been told for decades and decades that the key thing is energy in compared to energy out, just focus on the calories? There's definitely been government advice all around the world. We were always looking for a very simple explanation for people gaining weight or losing too much weight. And so it came after the war. It was all about deprivation and kids, babies weren't getting enough general energy in that they couldn't grow and maintain their weight. So it was a sort of logical thing to say, well, it's very complicated, but let's just reduce it to something that we can approximately measure and give some guidelines to people. And it came about like that. It was a simple concept to sell to people, although it was based on flawed science and evidence, when it turned out to the practicalities of people's individual experiences. But overall, it was a simple thing to say, yes, women need 2000 calories, men 2500, one size fits all, nice and easy guidelines done, move on, and you blame people if they go over it and you'll reward them if they stay under it. But it never worked. And essentially, it was missing this huge complexity of human metabolism and the complexity of food. And of course, it missed the complexity of gut health, which a recent discovery is this sort of missing link between why just basing on calories didn't work. I think as well, Jonathan, the concept of energy and energy out is compounded by the food landscape we now live in. And so we're surrounded by very different types of food that just encourage this over consumption and have a different kind of calorie effect than the kind of foods that we were consuming 100 or more years ago. I did actually want to ask about Mark's story, which is also focusing on health, which is really interesting. You're telling sort of trying really hard to deal with your health for like three years and then still staying in this sort of pre-diabetes range, despite the fact that you felt that you were doing all of all of this. Are you surprised to hear that this isn't just about weight, but this is, you know, very much about health? Yeah, absolutely. And something that I picked up on that Mark said quite proudly, you don't snack, you don't eat cakes and biscuits. But actually, there's all the other foods that you could be eating that we now have in our current food environment that could be really bad for you because of the way many foods are processed. So it would be interesting to know what kinds of foods you were having, even though you didn't snack and you didn't have a sweet tooth. Yes. I mean, things like bacon, I didn't eat a huge amount, but I did like it quite a lot. I tended to like meat a lot and eat plenty of meat. Of course, I always had vegetables, but not enough, not in the right balance. I know that now. I loved fish always. The cutting out the fruit was obviously a mistake. I was doing it to keep the sugar down. Did you eat low fat foods at all or low calorie foods? Did they sort of attract you when you went for the soup? No, I never, I never believed that, actually, the low fat thing. And I always tried to shy away from things I could see clearly were processed. So take bacon and maybe I was completely wrong, but I assumed bacon wasn't very processed. I assume it was just a bit of meat. I knew there were nitrates in it. And that was probably completely wrong, you'll tell me. But I thought that wasn't too bad. And the same with red meats. And I bought good quality ones and I always tried to buy organic. So I did all the things I thought were good for me and healthy. And, you know, sometimes I was right and often I wasn't. I think conversely for me, I didn't do any of those things. I was driven by a diet program that said for these many points per day, Becky, you can have whatever you want. And whatever you want was mostly ultra processed. Now I reflect back on that. So in the UK, we have the Mars bar and I can remember working out that on my points for a day on Weight Watchers, I could have three. I could live and that would be OK. That would be OK. And you know what? I'd lose weight. And looking back on that, how do you feel? I'm horrified. It actually makes me feel quite emotional because the reality of that at the time was almost a, what? You know what? I'm addicted to that. So, yeah. And I will use that word addicted because I was. I was addicted to sugars in all the wrong way. And I think that's sad that, you know, the information that I was given at that time, I didn't realize that I was addicted to those things. And that actually all that made me do is make life really difficult for myself because, you know, you could have three Mars bars, but then I could have another one now then and so on and so forth. And that's what happened. And that's, you know, you fall off the fall off the wagon again and until you put on loads of weight and then you're back on it again. But also, even if you were managed to keep the weight off, the food that you're eating, the Mars bar that you're eating, will cause serious long term health effects. And so again, this is why we have to move beyond calorie counting. We have to think of the overall quality of the food. Do you mind if I mention something that I think might help people? Because it's one of the things that's helped me the most. I mentioned the start. I was really, you know, really demoralized about all the things I'd have to cut out of my diet. And it felt awful. The key to that has been displacement, a concept that you've explained to me, which is actually that as long as you can eat enough to be satisfied, you don't feel deprived and you can choose so many foods that I like. And if you eat those, you don't miss the bacon rolls. Why? Because I'm satisfied. I'm happy. I love the food I eat. I love beetroot and preserved lemons and all sorts of healthy stuff. You just can't buy the convenience quick foods anymore. Sometimes you don't have enough time to eat properly. So you buy a sandwich previously and now I really can't. So it takes a bit of time to adjust practically to that, like make a little lunchbox of healthy food that you can eat quickly at your desk for 10 minutes. You know, have a little nut pot that I take to the theater. And that keeps you going till you can eat a proper healthy plate. I think that's a fair point. It's planning ahead and that's what Zoe teaches you to do. I travel a lot for work also and mainly in a car. So if you imagine driving on a three, four hour drive from where I live in Dorset to in Birmingham or wherever, the only options you've got along the way, a service station, have you looked at what's on offer in a service station shop? Because there is nothing for me there, actually, nothing. And I think that's horrifying. It's a smart says it's planning ahead. Yes, I've got my obligatory pot of nuts as well. So Sarah, how do you think about things being forbidden? So I think absolutely nothing should be off limits. So if you want to have bacon, have it. But very, very, very occasionally is about what you're adding to your plate. Because exactly like you said, by adding in healthy food, you're naturally going to displace the less healthy foods. The more you deny yourself things, whether it's calories, whether it's specific foods, the more you're going to crave it. And so don't totally take everything away. Cut down the foods that are bad, replace them with the healthy foods and let yourself have the odd tree. You know, a little bit of what's bad for you occasionally can be good for you. Bacon's come up a number of times. A lot of listeners may be saying, what is it about bacon that it's been given all the hard rap after all? It's January the first. Quite a few of us have probably been having some bacon over the last month. What's the story there? Oh, bacon sunny after a hangover, Jonathan. Nothing beats it with loads of butter. But we know processed red meat like bacon, like ham, increases our risk of many chronic diseases. Digly cancer is, you know, clearly linked with increased rates of cancer. And we're not sure exactly why it could be a lot of the chemicals in there as well as as well as some of the unhealthy fats. But if you're having that regularly several times a week, then that gives you this extra risk. OK, so this is it's genuinely this is like really a high risk food. Yeah, it's across the board. It comes out in all the studies as being a high risk process food that you really want to be avoiding having regularly having it once a month or having tiny sprinkles of it, you know, as you do, if you go to Italy or Spain where you can't avoid a little bit of this, it is probably fine. But having it in the amounts that we have in the UK and the US, I think definitely bad for you. And also it's thinking the overall quality of how you're having that. So imagine the traditional British or American way of having that bacon. It was probably with some white bread. It's probably with some tomato ketchup with some butter. That's not very healthy. Or you can have the more Mediterranean style way that they do include some red meat in a small amount. But alongside that, you'll have beans, pulses, vegetables, extra virgin olive oil. So that's something else that, you know, I hope you found through the science that we try and, you know, distill down is it's about thinking about the overall meal again and not demonizing or denying yourself one specific part of it. It's really interesting to hear the kind of meat discussion because I accidentally became vegetarian when I went on Zoe. And I mean accidentally because I get less and less and less meat, not through choice, but because there were other things that I wanted to eat more of. And that has just been revolutionary for me, I think that I didn't intend to be vegetarian, but I'd go weeks without having, you know, chicken or steak or, you know, any of those things. So much so that in the end, I just thought, well, I just as well go the whole way and, you know, and, and, and not eat meat anymore. And I chose to do that because I can then eat more of the things that bring me joy, those, you know, a plate of vegetables and nuts and seeds. And, you know, my, my daily 30, I'm going to get that in because I have that every single day. All of those things give me more pleasure than meat does. So I choose not to. When I transitioned to many a plant based, I sort of said, oh, well, you know, I can have meat when I want it, but I found I was wanting it less because you sort of perhaps changed your palate as, as you've gone on. And the idea of eating at some enormous steak, which people, you know, listening might say, oh, I could never do without it. But actually, once you, you do start to have all this range of other plants, someone offers you a bite, you might, yo, that's great, but I find I can't have much more than that. Now it's interesting how you do change. I mean, for me, I, I still love meat and I concentrate my efforts now on venison, which I know is really healthy and, and turkey and chicken. And then fish, I love, and eggs and cheese and all of these things. So I definitely haven't turned into a vegetarian, but it's true. I eat far more plants. And one of the things that struck me recently is how in the old days, the way I, before, and maybe how most people eat, you tend to have maybe three things on your plate. If you think about it, fish and chips. And you know, you've got to have something green. So you put peas in as well, let's say, or steak and chips. And again, perhaps a green thing, three things. My plates almost never have only three things anymore. I mean, when I'm making up a plate of salad or whatever, it's got 15 things on it. It's got beetroot and maybe three herbs, chopped on top and tomatoes and so on and so forth. There will be protein there too, but smaller amounts, a bit like you said, Tim, but it's actually more fun now. The food's more interesting, much more varied. You know, you've got this thing where you've got to eat lots of different types of plants. I find that a great game. So last week, I think I had 81, believe it or not. No way. Honestly. That's better than Tim, I think. 81. Yeah, beats me. So thank you for sharing all of those stories. And I think there are going to be a lot of people listening for whom those stories resonate and looking for inspiration as we begin the new year. So I'd like to talk maybe about those first few months. And some of our listeners may know that one of the first things you do as a member is to take a microbiome test. And we talk a lot about the science and the results of the microbiome test, but has to be said that we don't tend to talk a lot about the process of the microbiome test. Mark, can you guess why that might be? Because it's all about testing your poo, isn't it? Do you want to talk us through what you have to do? Yes. OK. So you have to collect a little bit of your poo, which isn't so hard, actually. Tiny little bit, pop it in a little tube and send it off in the post. It's actually very easy. It didn't put you off when you first did it or thought about it? No, not at all. We make it really nice, though. We give you a little hammock that you put on the toilet. How did it go for you, Becky? It was fine. You pop it off in the post and it took about two weeks, I think, to come back the results and you get a very comprehensive report of lots of very long names that I can't pronounce, which I'll leave to these guys. I was going to say, Tim, can you explain a little bit about that gut microbiome test and like what's going on from the point you put it in the mail to the results coming back? Yes. So, I mean, we pioneered this over 10 years ago, this poo in the post concept. You're a little bit of poo, which is a tiny quarter of a teaspoon goes into this liquid, which preserves it and stops it degrading. You get it in the lab and then essentially we extract the DNA from the rest of the stuff. And the rest of the stuff actually is dead microbes, most of it. The DNA from that is then goes into our analyzers. Every single microbe has its own DNA and that goes into this big puzzle, basically, when our computers then link those DNA structures to the database and work out what the microbes are in your particular sample. And that's a huge computational exercise. We're trying to work out every gene in every microbe, you know, what it's called and which one is then associated with. So we sort of reconstruct your gut microbiome. It's really clever. Many gut tests still only look at one gene in every microbe, but we do every single gene. And so it's very comprehensive. And then from that, we then work out now how many good bugs you've got, how many bad bugs. This is based on our study, which we published in Nature. 50 good bugs, 50 bad bugs, and we look at the ratios. And that is now the best way of looking at your gut microbiome. It used to be, I can't remember whether you did the test, it was diversity and a number of different species. Do you remember what your results were? Yes, I do. My first ones were 630 and then 535 and then 550. What was yours, like? I remember getting my, the overall gut health score, which was the first time I did it before retesting 12 months later, I think, was 44 out of 100. And then when I retested it was 88 and I was like jumping for joy. The difference between that in 12 months. That's amazing. I doubled my gut health and I just thought, wow, that's just incredible. What was that experience in the first month or two, if you can think back? Because you were describing coming from this world where as long as you only ate three chocolate bars a day and nothing else, this was fine. So I think probably the advice that you were suddenly getting from Zoe being pretty radically different. The magic began for me when I got my results back because it was astounding. So I hadn't realised at all that I was very poor at processing sugar and yet lived off of a diet of artificial sweetness. So it's no surprise I was struggling and really good scoring and ability to be able to deal with the fats. So already I was looking at some figures that were the complete opposite of my diet. So everything that I was doing basically would have scored horrendously for me when I was scanning it on the app. So it took a little while for me to kind of get my head around that to look at the consequences of if I ate that, my score would plummet versus if I ate that and it would shoot through the roof. So it was a learning process. And I always say to my grandchildren, if you try something 10 times, you'll get to like it. But I had to live by that myself at that time because it did take a few weeks, I would say, to actually kind of turn around what I wanted to eat and how I wanted to eat it. I did it and actually it was surprisingly easy. But at the time it was quite a, you know, stand on the edge of a cliff moment going, this is going to be hard. Did you eat more fatty foods then? I did. So a bit like Mark said earlier on was my understanding of what fatty foods did to me, I'd avoided fat at all costs ever. Absolutely avoided it because I knew that A, it was hiring calories and B, it didn't score well on my Weight Watchers program. So if you were cooking food, for example, that involved anything meaning to be fried or whatever, what would you have done? I wouldn't have done it. You wouldn't even have done it? No. And today? Absolutely. And today I use olive oil every day of my life. And so it's about educating yourself, isn't it? It's about, you know, we're told that fats are bad for us and it's not true. It's simply just not true. On the contrary, in fact, for me, it's good for me. It actually is what my body processes well. And I've proven that to myself over and over again, day in, day out. But at that time, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it. I would have, I would have just avoided all costs. Anything fried was just not on my agenda. And did you figure this all out on day one? Like there was like a list of information somehow and therefore you just magically turned the dial on 30 years of eating in a, in a different way? No. So I think the, the value of Zoe is, is it takes you through that journey. So on my Zoe app, every day you'd have a new lesson to learn something new. And I was soaking it up at that point. You know, I had got this interest in what I was doing and how it was impacting on me. And so those lessons were just fantastic. But it opens up in a whole new world, doesn't it? Suddenly you want to know more, you know, you realise you're feeling better suddenly. And oh, by the way, you're losing weight naturally without having to worry about, you know, whether I can fit a Mars bar in at the end of the day or not. And so I think it's just about learning and about, you know, being open to learning and not being scared by it. Yeah. I mean, I think you put that really well. It was a journey and it took a couple of months to, you know, change, change the way you eat. But it was a lot of fun from the beginning I found. And I started to see the positive benefits quite quickly as well. So I found it, in a way, I didn't find it hard because I was getting so much positive reinforcement and learning so much and basically feeling better from really quite early on. And Mark, if I know it's a couple of years, but if you can imagine thinking back, could you maybe talk us through a little bit like what that experience was like? Like you got your results, you had this app. I had this shock, as I explained earlier, I was really down about it thinking, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to change the way I eat completely. And so many things I thought were healthy, it really aren't going to be. And I'd look on the app and, you know, rice is zero and bacon is zero and all these things are zero. But I set off on this journey and I started realizing that there were tons of things I did like that were scoring 100, like avocados. I love avocados. So whereas before a little bit of you might have thought, oh, I know they're very high fat, so maybe I shouldn't have too many. Now, you know, in the 100 category, 75 to 100, eat as much as you want. I like that, eat as much as you want. So I started eating more of the eat as much as you want things. I know a lot less of the, you know, things I could see now you should, you should only have occasionally and so on and so forth. I found that actually, I found that description of the foods helpful, you know, the 25 to 50 and so on, have it regularly and so on. I found that helpful. And then at the supermarket, you know, I still like bread, though, I don't, I eat a lot less of it now. So with the app, you can pick the bread that scores 46, the best I ever found, instead of a lot of bread scoring zero and have that and put avocado on it. And then the mixture gives you 80 points. Great. And so actually I found it liberating. I felt a lot less hungry, less often on it. And then I was feeling all these physical benefits, like more energy and, you know, not feeling constipated anymore and all of these things, which put in a really good positive feedback loop. Take a recent example until I know your new book on ferment and one of the podcasts I watched was all about fermented foods. And I thought, well, that sounds fun. Let's try that. I honestly think my energy levels have had another 20% boost from it, making sure that every meal I have, you know, a reasonable amount, not too much of fermented foods of various types. I think what I love hearing is how you use the app to build the meals because we don't eat foods in isolation. We don't eat nutrients in isolation. You know, we eat a dietary pattern and we eat meals. And that's something that's quite hard from a science point of view to think about, well, how do you modify a score based on combining different foods? And it's something because the science team we've worked really hard on over the last few years where you take an element like the bread, although you're choosing a healthy bread. So you're still having that bread. But then how do you make it even better by overlaying with healthy other foods like avocado, like olive oil. And so it's lovely hearing that that actually play out in real life. It does. It works really well. It took a while for me to get my head around that, though. That that food combining thing. I was always looking at the scores in isolation, so I'd scan something. And if it scored over 75, yep, it was good for me. I was OK with that. If I went and scored bread at 46, there's no way I would have bought that loaf of bread. Absolutely no way at all. Until I started to realize that actually put some avocado on it or some smashed peas and suddenly you've got, you know, a meal that actually is good from a fiber perspective, good from a fats perspective. And so the score creeps up again. And it sounds like in those first few months, you were very engaged with this app and you were doing what we would call now sort of mind fleeting. And you were sort of really tracking all of these meals in the day. We talk a little bit because I heard you talk about this score for the day. What I think we would now call the diet score. We probably called a day score at the time. Could you just explain for a moment what that was and whether it was useful in any way? Oh, gosh, it was definitely useful. I don't think I could have done it without it personally because it enabled me to learn as I went. It's simple, isn't it? If you know that you're aiming as a minimum for 75 per day, so you get a score of 100, each item you can scan in the supermarket. It gives you a score out of that 100. And you know that if your day is 75 or above, then it's a good score and you're in a healthy range and keep going and doing what you're doing. Without that, I think it would have been really difficult to navigate. How do you know what is good and what is not when you definitely can't read the packaging of something to know whether it's good or not? Because all packaging tells you it's good, despite the fact it's absolutely not. I'd like to come back to present day because you're talking about something that is a couple of years ago. And I think all of us around the table have had the same experience as I think many of our listeners, which is you try something for a while. You have very high motivation, you keep it up, but it's really hard. And then you give up and you go back to your old habits. And in the end, sometimes you're actually worse off than the beginning. So I think the million dollar question is sort of how are you feeling now? And does it feel sustainable? And how have these changes influenced your health and your weight and how you feel after a couple of years? Maybe I can start with Becky and then go on to Mark. So what's been the impact after if you compare yourself now with the day that you sent off the test? Yeah, I think definitely I feel like a different person in many ways. I think that my sense of well-being has really been impacted. So at that time I was probably not very kind on myself in terms of, you know, I felt uncomfortable, I felt like I wasn't the right way. And I was constantly questioning why that was the case and not really knowing because, you know, I tried really hard to lose weight. And it wasn't even just about the weight at that point. It was just about my health, the way I felt. And then I realized it was actually the diet that I was having then that impacted on my health. There was no going back for me at that point because I realized that this wasn't just about weight. This was actually about how healthy I wanted to be doing the things that I love to do. So I can't go back to not being a Zoe advocate, if you like. For me, I really like the app. I like scanning. It's easy. It's just part of what you do every day now. So it's just my life. It's just what I do. And I think it's not hard because you just kind of, you know, you ingrain it in part of what you do on a day to day. I think that's amazing. A lot of people will be asking, but what about the weight, Becky? Because they're going to be skeptical because after all, this is always a short-term shift. And then it all comes back, doesn't it? No, absolutely not. No, no, I've been the same weight for two years. And I've never done that in my entire life ever. That's just not a thing for me. I'd literally be up a stone, down two stone, up three stone all the time. So on a weight watcher's give you an example. I would be OK between sort of six months and nine months. And then I'd be back to where I was again very quickly as well. The minute you stop calorie restriction, all that weight just comes piling back on again. So I don't want to, you know, kind of make it sound like a weight loss program because I don't feel like that about it anymore. But the way I eat now, I am not restricted. I eat exactly what I want, when I want. But the types of food that you eat mean that you don't want to binge eat. And I would binge eat in brutal honesty. I would binge eat beforehand. Being on a diet that was calorie restricted leads you to that. So it's a lifelong style for me now. It's not a diet or a program or any of those things. It's just the way I am. That's amazing. And so when you look at your life now, Mark, like you've also sustained this for a couple of years. Yes. How do you feel today when you contrast that with, you know, the day that you decided to start Zoe? I feel different too. I, as I say, I've got more energy. I feel really healthy. I don't crave food at all anymore. It's brought so many lovely changes to my life that I'd never want to stop. And people say to me, but Mark, by now, you know, you know, all the foods are healthy and you know, the ones that aren't. Is it still worth doing this app thing? You know? And I think, well, yes, because food is complex and always changing too. So I want to know what that new thing at Waitrose scores, for example. And also the combinations, your algorithm gives the answers. I can't remember all that. I can remember, you know, these things healthy and those less so. But that's only part of the picture. Also, I find the time element, the cost, really, a part of a very modest sum every month in money. But the other cost is time. And I find, actually, I probably don't spend any more than maximum 15 minutes a day, maximum, logging everything. And I've logged, you know, pretty religiously everything I've had and drank since, you know, for two years plus from the beginning, because I didn't see the point in lying to myself. About 15 minutes a day, maximum. The new photo snapping as well is even quicker, which I really like. Tim, what are your thoughts as you're listening to these two stories? Well, I think they should be inspiring for many people. And it's mirroring a lot of people who come up to me after I'm giving a talk, saying how this different way of thinking about food has changed people's lives. And I think this is really what it's about. You know, both these stories about our previous beliefs were suddenly changed by what we're doing at Zoe. So it's not just a program or whatever, but it is a whole different way of thinking about food, which then has this amazing impact on health. And that is what I think is so inspiring for people. So it means that it's not about people's weaknesses or failures or whatever. It's just people were told the wrong things and were trying to do the right thing. And they were just being misled by, you know, big food companies, by out of date guidelines, by the medical establishment who don't know enough about this stuff. So I think this is really all about people, you know, taking back the initiative themselves. And I think what a lot of you are talking about is empowerment. Yes, it's the ability that, you know, we're giving you some of these tools, but the rest of it's up to you and you're deciding what to do with it. And you want to change your lives and do it. So for me as a scientist and a doctor, it's the only time in my career when I'm realizing that we're helping so many people through the amazing science that we're doing and can have these results. It's, yeah, it's just fantastic. It makes me feel great. And how do you understand like these stories about energy? Because I think that remains one of the things that seems most surprising to me is that changing what you eat might affect things like your energy and your mood. Both of these guys are giving this similar. And endless people coming up to me saying, yeah, one of the first things we noticed was a change in my mood and my energy. You know, I didn't have that fatigue that I was always fighting before. And in medicine, we're not trained to ask people about energy levels or fatigue. It's like a no, no subject because all of those are going to grumble at me. I mustn't mention it. Yeah, GP's worst nightmare is to ask about fatigue levels. But we now know that fatigue is linked to something that's happening in our immune in our immune system and inflammation levels. And I think this is relatively new science. But all these things that stress and fatigue are related to blood levels of inflammation that are just too high in in the Western world, whereas they used to be much lower. And a lot of that is driven by the foods that we're eating. So our body doesn't process them well. It causes stress in the body. The immune system has just switched on all the time, dealing with a lot of these highly risk processed foods, things that weren't naturally eating. And so these levels are one of the first things that drop when we we get these blood sugar spikes under control, when we get the fat spikes under control, when we cut out all these additives. And that's why in all our studies, whether it's, you know, giving people daily 30 in a trial, whether it's just doing the standard Zoe plan. The first thing we notice is the mood and energy levels improving. And these guys are great witnesses to it, how important it is. And that just shows you how the link between the body and the mind and something else we consistently see, as well as mood and energy improving. We see hunger levels improving that consistently people say, I feel less hungry. And that's something that both of you have said that, although you have naturally it's kind of byproduct of doing Zoe loss away, you're actually feeling less hungry. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you say it's a byproduct, but it might be the reason just by switching what you're eating makes you less hungry, you're not craving stuff. Therefore, you're not going to be snacking on the rubbish food you were before. Mark and Becky, you both mentioned sort of the learning curve that you've been on to eat the way that you now do. And I would love to share any tips that either of you have for the audience that sort of makes it easier to eat this way. You know, I think Mark, you mentioned a lunch box, for example. Yeah. So the nut box is a good one. You just a little pot, you put a mixture of roast chickpeas, perhaps dry roast peanuts, whatever nuts you like in there, take an apple and have that to eat at the interval at the theater, for example, if you can't get a meal or just tied you over. If you can't sit down and have a healthy meal for whatever reason. Can I mention soft drinks? So one of the problems with drinks is that they're nearly all incredibly unhealthy. I was left drinking water and black coffee and black tea pretty much, maybe with a bit of milk in that's about it. It gets very boring. So I wrote to Zoe's nutrition coach back then saying, tell me what the soft drinks are the most healthy for me. And back came Momo Kombucha and Agua de Madre. And my fridge has rows of them. They're brilliant. The first one was a Kombucha. The second one was Magua de Madre. That's a water cafe. Yeah, Tibicoz. So it's not very well known yet, but it's a growing market. And it's really delicious flavours. And if people haven't tried it, do go out and try some. Becky, I agree with everything Mark said, that all of those things I follow. I think don't be afraid to ask when you're out as well. So if you're in a restaurant, very rarely. Well, I choose something standard from a menu anymore. I'll say you do that with that. Can I have some of that with some of that? And you know, nine times out of 10, most restaurants are really happy to kind of, you know, switch things up. So I think the message is go prepared. Don't expect to be able to find things that suit the way you want to eat in your local high street because it's tricky. Preparation is key, is the way that you make it integrate into your life really. And tell me about breakfast, both of you. What does breakfast look like today? I tried to vary it, actually, but my staple one is a live unsweetened yogurt plus kefir, always chia seeds, always a daily 30, almonds, pistachios, because they're gut boosters, mixed nuts, some seeds, probably, cocoonibs, which I love, and berries on top for sweetness. Sounds beautiful. You mentioned they're gut boosters. Could you explain to listeners what that means? Yes. So one of the really nice things about Zoey is that they give you a list of, I think it's 20 ish for me anyway, gut boosters, meaning things are good from the microbes in me that need to grow. I need more of them or to get some that I haven't got. And so I try and incorporate those into my diet and it's good fun, actually. Gut suppressors are that 10 or so bad things I should avoid unless I want to feed my bad microbes and basically I just do not eat them. You're much better behaved than I am. It's very impressive. Becky, what does your breakfast look like? It doesn't. I don't eat breakfast. So I continue to do 16.8, which is really interesting, actually, because I just like the way that makes me feel for those that don't know, means that I only eat in an eight hour window. So my first meal of the day is usually about one o'clock and that's usually a savory offering. So that might be some vegetables or a salad with maybe some lentils or chickpeas sprinkled over with some nuts and seeds, of course. It's tricky, I guess, in the way that you need to kind of get in more meaningful protein. So being vegetarian, you need to think more carefully about that. And eating in a shorter window, meaning kind of two main meals a day, means that I also have to think more intentionally about replacing that protein content that I would have had with with meat with things like, you know, nuts and seeds and pulses and lentils and chickpeas and all of those things that are really high in protein. You just have to be a bit more intentional about that. Final question. If you were able to, like, go back in time and talk to yourself, let's say, three years ago before you'd even heard of Zoe, what's the one bit of advice you would give yourself, given what you know today? Becky, why don't you go first? That's a challenging question. I think if I had to narrow it down to one thing, it would be, don't believe what the packaging tells you, that actually what you need to eat is whole foods that you know what's in the product rather than what the packaging is telling you. So avoid ultra processed foods, I suppose would be my kind of key takeaway. Avoiding ultra processed foods is probably one of them and also just not believing the fat story. The messages you get in general about health and what's healthy food are so baffling. And one of the things I find most valuable about Zoe is your honesty and that you follow the science. In other words, you tell us if there's something you think probably is healthy, but you don't know, you can't prove it yet. There isn't a good experiment. And so one of the things I really love about Zoe is it's one source of truth in this that cuts through all the confusion. And that's in some ways the most valuable thing about it for me. So if you guys say coffee is healthy, I believe you, one source of truth. Brilliant. Thank you so much. I think this has been really fun, very different from the sort of podcast that we normally do. And I think really powerful. You know, if I think back about what I take away, one is Sarah explaining that nothing should be off limits, but that if you start to add all of these new things into your diet, you just naturally shift. And I thought, Becky, it was really interesting you were saying I sort of accidentally became a vegetarian because I'm just adding in all of these plants and they're tasting so good. So I'm sort of squeezing the meat and squeezing the meat. And you've ended up not eating at all. And Mark, you're saying, well, I really loved meat. But now again, I'm shifting to a lot of this stuff that's good for me. Like the venison. And again, though, total amount is less because there's suddenly just all this other stuff that I like, which has definitely been my own journey as well, which is just that I think your tastes change a lot. And at least in my experience as someone who definitely ate tons of highly processed food, it's almost like your palate can't even tell that this food tastes good. And then you start to appreciate it and it does really shift. I love that. I love the story about feeling empowered. So rather than being told, this is what you have to do. You just feel like you have answers that support you. And I guess the other thing that comes through really strongly is this idea of both having the information to understand what's going on and that you both have found being able to really understand specifically for an individual meal or a food. What's good allows you to make these decisions and changes, but critically that it's sustainable. You know, Becky, your story is really powerful. It's also similar to stories, I think that we hear quite often about many, many times embarking on a very restrictive diet, having a lot of short term benefit. It being unsustainable, then feeling full of guilt and self-loathing, falling off it. You're incredibly hungry. So you put on all the weight or you like relapse in terms of the health measures that you might be looking at, Mark. And so I think the thing that probably I always find very sustaining, I suspect Sarah and Tim feel the same way is like this idea of making something that you can just keep doing forever, I think comes through really strongly. And then finally, give some brilliant tips, which were new. So I love this idea of like a nut box, which might include like, I heard like roasted chickpeas, you know, have an apple take it for something where you're going to an event where you won't be able to eat until later. I think the restaurant, you know, add extra vegetables, but also don't be afraid to ask to change. And I would just conclude by saying it's incredibly powerful to hear these stories. And I hope that there are a few listeners here who feel like actually maybe in 2026, this idea of like doing something sustainable might be the best habit to try and embark on. And you are amazing examples of that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. At Zoe, we never stop being curious about how people respond to food. So we recently asked thousands of people about their breakfast, what they eat and how they feel about it. Their answers may surprise you. Over 70% told us that their breakfast is balanced, yet only 6% get enough fiber. If you've been listening to this podcast, you know, that's not enough to be balanced. And it's no wonder that only 16% felt energetic after eating. Clearly, breakfast is broken. But what if you could get a breakfast that actually supports your energy and gut health? Meet Daily 30, our 30 plant gut supplement that's out to fix breakfast one scoop at a time. Daily 30 is designed by Zoe Gut Health Scientists and features four grams of fiber and ingredients that support gut health, digestion, energy, immunity and skin and hair. Deliciously crunchy. You can sprinkle it on yogurt and berries, porridge, avocado toast, eggs, even pancakes. Tastes great on lunches and other meals too. As we've discussed repeatedly on this podcast, healthy habits are easier to start in the morning. So why not get your 30 plants in before 10am? Find your breakfast fix and try the new formula at zoe.com slash daily 30. Our scientists have just redesigned Daily 30 to include even more plants, including raspberries, goji berries, fermented green tea kombucha, kale and marine algae. By the way, whenever we share what Daily 30 can do, UK law requires us to say that it's a natural source of calcium, which supports gut health and digestion and copper, which supports energy, immunity and skin and hair. If you tune in regularly, you know what we think about this. Honestly, we prefer to let the benefits of Daily 30 speak for itself. Go to zoe.com slash daily 30 to get started. Try it for a week and see how you feel.