‘Think and Grow Rich’ Is a Lie. (But The Advice Still Works)

Fake and Grow Rich, amazing book, one of the best-selling books of all time, but the whole backstory, completely fake, and he's a total con man. What? What do you mean none of it's true? I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like my days off. All right, I have to tell you this story. So I'm rereading a bunch of old books because I like rereading old books, and I started reading Dale Carnegie, How to Win's Friends and Influence People. Have you read that one? I love that book, Sam. Rule number one. Rule number one. A person's name is the most beautiful. Their favorite word in the English language. The golden rule. I love that book. The reason I like these old books is because some of them, the rules have stood the test of time, and the writing is always like, all the writing for some reason is cute. There's something about it. Can I tell you something stupid I did? I took the book, and you know how people wear like, you're a denim guy, you know this, distressed jeans? Oh, yeah, baby. I distressed the book. I roughed it up a little bit I made it look like this is an heirloom that's been passed down from Napoleon himself did you like dog ear certain pages even though you didn't even read the thing tattered tattered and folded folded it like a baseball hat I'm still in the first 30 pages but like I made this book look like it has already won friends and influenced people you just put it in the back of your pocket and just walk around with it wait for people who don't know people have heard of the book but if it's been one of those things like you know like The Wire it's like I heard it's a great show but it's kind of old now and I just I guess I'm out on that. Like if you know of the book, but you haven't actually cracked into it, tell the quick story of it. Dale Carnegie, he originally was a public speaker and he taught public speaking classes. Then he created a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People. And I think it's like 15 or 20 rules on how to basically make friends and make people like you. So it could be saying their name. It could be asking them questions. So they do most of the talking. It's never arguing with someone because no one wins an argument when you guys fight. And there's like how many 15 or 20 rules And it's just like an old-timer book. It was released in the 1930s, so it's almost 100 years old. And it's probably sold 50 to 100 million copies. And to this day, there's the Dale Carnegie Institute, which is a public speaking classes. And a lot of amazing people, including Warren Buffett, have said that that book influenced them and helped them. And in fact, Warren Buffett, he was an instructor at the Dale Carnegie Institute, I believe. Love it. Okay, great. And you were going to say, so you've been rereading this book. Rereading that one. I'm reading, I just got The Power of Positive Thinking. That's another one from the 1930s. I just love these old books. And like I told you, I'm in the motivational phase of my life right now. I'm back at it. I just want to be influenced to be, you know, motivated and happy and all that stuff. It's a girl dad thing. You know what I'm saying? Like once you have a girl, you know, you're just emotional. And so I'm into this stuff. But there's one book that I started reading last night and I was curious about it. The author. Because it just got me interested. But it's called Thinking Grow Rich. Have you read Think and Grow Rich? A classic. I've, again, read the first 30 pages. Loved it. So you've read 30 pages. You get it. So let me tell you the story about Think and Grow Rich. Think and Grow Rich, one of the earliest self-help books. I think it predates How to Win Friends and Influence People. It sold around 100 million copies, making it one of the best-selling nonfiction books of all time. And to this day, it still regularly lands on the New York Times bestsellers list. I mean, it's a huge thing. And so basically, the story is that there's this guy named Napoleon Hill. Can I say it wrong and you correct me? Isn't it something like he got commissioned by Carnegie? Oh, yeah. And he went and interviewed all these people or he hung out with them. What is the story? It's even more epic than that. So basically, Napoleon Hill is this guy from Appalachia, came from nothing. He's this really poor kid and makes his way to New York City. And he's writing an article for a magazine. And he meets Andrew Carnegie, who at the time, this is like Elon Musk. He's the best of the best. Andrew Carnegie runs Carnegie Steel. This is Tesla. This is the biggest company in the world by far. And he's talking to Andrew Carnegie. And Napoleon was like, look, I'm just trying to figure out what makes people successful. And Andrew Carnegie goes, look, son, you seem promising. I want to tell you to do something. But can you promise me you'll actually do it? Because I have a feeling you're not going to follow through. But if you do follow through on me, I think you're going to be really successful. And Napoleon goes, look, I'm desperate for success. I'll do anything you say. And Andrew, imagine Elon Musk saying, Sean, I need you to go out and talk to 500 people, the most successful people on earth. And I need you to tell me what made them successful because I want the world to know about this gospel. They have to know what makes people successful. And I need you to study them for the next 20 years. And I will help fund it. I will help make this a reality. Will you do that? And Napoleon goes, hell yeah, brother. I am in. This sounds like the world's greatest mission. Let's do it. And so Andrew Carnegie introduces them to Henry Ford. They introduced him to John Rockefeller, also one of the richest men in the world, and even introduced him to Woodrow Wilson and then FDR, the presidents of the United States. And Napoleon Hill spends a decade or two writing this book, and it becomes They Can Grow Rich, and it basically distills down all of the amazing stuff that makes someone successful. And it goes even further. After this book, because Napoleon Hill got to meet all these presidents, he basically was there when Woodrow Wilson negotiated the end of World War I. And he helped give Woodrow Wilson the speech that he needed to convince Germany to back down. And then it goes even further. Do you remember the famous line from FDR? He says, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. You remember that line? Napoleon Hill, baby. He wrote that for him. Wow. Yeah, pretty amazing, right? Fingerprints are all over this country. All over this country. He shaped America. Well, none of it's true. What? What do you mean none of it's true? Everything I just told you is a lie. Except for Think and Grow Rich, amazing book, one of the best-selling books of all time. Everything else, totally false. All right, I read a ton. I would say almost a book a week. And the reason I read so much is because my philosophy towards reading is I want to see what worked for the winners that I love and what strategies they use. And then I want to see what mistakes did they all make, what were the common flaws that they all had. And I just want to avoid that. And so HubSpot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life. And I did that. So I listed out seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life. And I explained what the differences that they had on me or what actions I took because of the book. and then also I listed out my very particular ways of reading because I'm pretty strategic about how I read and how I read so much and how I remember what I read and things like that and so I put this together in a very simple guide it's seven books that had a huge impact on my life and you can scan the QR code below if you want to read it or there's a link you guys know what to do there's a link in the description just go ahead and click it and you'll see the guide that I made so it's the seven books that had a massive change in my life. And then also how I'm able to read so much. So check it out below. So what do you mean? Where did this come from? Listen to this. So Napoleon Hill originally was called Oliver Napoleon Hill. That was his name. Married someone at the age of... Already minus five. Yes. Married someone at the age of 16 or 17, eventually gets divorced because he goes broke and spends all his money on prostitutes. Starts a lumber company and he gets arrested for fraud, gets arrested again for stealing a bunch of cars. And if you go to the MBD master document, I actually list his rap sheet. So he got in trouble in 1908 for lumber fraud. In 1908, again, he gets arrested for cashing fake checks. In 1909, he creates this thing called the Automobile College, which teaches kids how to work on cars. Turns out, he actually teaches them how to go and sell the course. So it's a multi-level marketing scheme. And he gets run out of town because he runs off with a lot of money, gets arrested again in 1910 for car theft. And just like a history of just like literally been in jail, we're talking like 15 or 20 times. And he comes out with this. I mean, he just tries business after business after business. He literally tries like 15 businesses. They all fail. He marries a woman. He convinces the woman's parents to loan him money for this like a farm or something he wants to start. That goes bankrupt and he divorces the woman. I mean, real broke. Yeah, like really bad. And so in the 1930s... So did the Carnegie part happen at all? Did he even interview any of these people? So Carnegie died in 1919. And in the 1930s, he comes out with this book. He had written a bunch of books already that none of them were hits. This particular one was a hit. And he tells the story of meeting Andrew Carnegie and how Andrew Carnegie asked him to do this. There's zero proof that he met Andrew Carnegie. And Andrew Carnegie, I've read actually three biographies on him. I got married at Carnegie Hall because I loved him so much. The book comes out, I think, in 1929. Carnegie has been dead for 10 years. And David Nassau, who wrote the best biography on Carnegie, they're like, dude, Carnegie documented everything. There's no proof that he met. Carnegie said no. Or Carnegie didn't say anything about this. What about the people, Wilson and FDR? None of it happened. He'd never been to any of these guys. And nobody debunked it? Well, so here's the thing. People did debunk it later on, but it's sort of like R. Kelly and his music. You could separate the art from the artist. Do you know what I mean? I could still listen to the music and acknowledge that it's good music, but the book was so good, and I could talk about some of the stuff in the book. It was so good that it's known that he was a fraudster and that all of this story, it's completely fake. But the book is actually so good that he didn't get a pass, but people acknowledge the book's great. And also he's full of shit. So in the book, there's actually a bunch of amazing stuff. For example, have you heard of the term mastermind? He created that. So he came up with this idea. Probably lies. Probably all lies. You think I believe that? I think he was. Fool me once. Shame on me. Don't fool me again. That's a Napoleon Hill term. So he created this idea of, I mean. He popularized it at least. popularized it. But I think it's the first time that someone has ever said the word mastermind, or at least published. He did a bunch of amazing stuff. So in the book, he says that you need to have a specific goal, you need to write it down, and you need to repeat it to yourself every single day, twice a day. That's been proven to be true. There's a lot of research that shows if you write down goals, you repeat it to yourself, you are something like two times more likely to achieve your goal. Another thing that he said was this idea of persistence and grit. And he goes through tons and tons of chapters of the importance of persistence and grit. Angela Duckworth, I think we talked about it, has this book called Grit. And it's also been proven that grit is more likely to make you succeed than IQ. And then there's other parts where he talks about daily affirmations. And this is all woo-woo stuff, but this is proven to be true. That if you affirm that you're going to be successful and all these things, you are actually more likely to be successful. And so he actually does have a lot of amazing stuff. There's some other weird stuff. He talks about how sexual energy is the most powerful energy on earth and you need to harness it. There's a bunch of weird stuff in there, but there's a lot of really amazing stuff. And so, but when I read about his background, I just thought it was like one of the craziest things that I've ever read about because it's so in-depth about how he just lied about the entire backstory. His whole life basically is a lie. Oh, and by the way, I have to add, if you read the book, have you noticed how he mentions the secret? I don't remember that, but yeah, okay. Okay, so in the book, he talks about there's the secret to success. There is, in fact, a secret. Andrew Carnegie, the most successful man on earth, he conveniently dropped the secret into my pocket. And that's what I'm going to talk about. Well, in the book, Think and Grow Rich, he never actually outlines the secret. Or sorry, he never explicitly says what it is. But what he does say is he goes, I've written another book about this, the secret, and I've outlined it perfectly. I made it incredibly clear. Now, the thing is, I'm not even going to tell you the name of the book. It's going to come to you when you need it. And this book was called The Law of Success. And it was a 14-volume course that you had to buy. It was very expensive. And so the book, Think and Grow Rich, it's just the front door offer. It's like the cheap version. So like the $10 book that upsells you on the $2,000 course. And so this is like one of the early versions of like an unclosed loop like an open loop to get people to go and buy stuff And then you could go and buy his seminars And so his marketing prowess was pretty amazing And it totally worked Napoleon Hill became a seminar company, and it actually was somewhat successful before he stole a bunch of money and it got in trouble for fraud. But his marketing was amazing. And the book actually has a lot of amazing stuff, but the whole backstory, completely fake. And he's a total con man. That's pretty wild. Similar to like what's going on with the Jay Shetty thing, right? Have you seen this? No. You know Jay Shetty? He's like me with green eyes. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very attractive guy. Very popular. His backstory is... That he's a monk? I was a monk, you know. I was in trouble, blah, blah, blah. And I went and I became a monk in India or Nepal or something. And then one day, and this is where I knew the story was bullshit immediately. One day, guess what happened? a monk at the monastery comes to him and says, you're not meant to be here. You're meant to do more, like to do bigger things in this world. You're meant to go back to America and start a podcast. Essentially, that's what he told. You know, you're meant to go popularize this monk wisdom, which, I mean, come on. Do we really think that a monk broke his silence and just randomly went up to him and was like, no, no, no, you are supposed to go do this other thing. Like how convenient. How convenient. We need you to start a seminar company, Jay. Yeah, it's bullshit. So basically it's questionable, I think, even if he was a monk, if he ever did a stint as a monk. Being a monk I think is also quite a long-term commitment versus like I did a seven-day retreat at a thing or whatever. So I think that part's questionable. Definitely the part about the monk telling him like your purpose in life is to go do this other thing. That's bullshit. Dude, he's only 38 years old and he's been famous for like 10 years. I'm just waiting for it to be revealed. he wears colored contacts. That's going to be the final straw for me. It is. But basically, you know, and then they're like, oh, he has this degree and it's like, oh wait, he didn't actually have that college degree. In fact, he has his own school that gives their own certificates for 10 grand and that's where he got his certification from. It's like the whole thing, you know, starts to fall over. But you know what? Like the things he says, right? He took old ideas, he repopularized them in his book. You know, his podcast, he gets people to open up and he's a good podcaster. So it's hard, right? And the art from the artist, as you said. And so I think it's very, very similar. He was the officiant of J-Lo and Ben Affleck's wedding. They're like, you are meant to officiate celebrity weddings. I met a guy who was like his brand coach early on. And I was like, tell me, is this real? He was like, I have no idea. And I knew better than to ask. I was like, okay, sounds good. Dude, that's crazy. I can't tell if the self-help industry actually has a higher percentage of this sort of like fraud and fakery. And there's something about the nature of wanting to be a guru that is attractive. It's kind of like politics, right? The people who seek power tend to be people who are flawed in certain ways. The people who deserve power don't seek it. And so I wonder if it's the same thing with like the kind of self-help guru space or if it's a bias where you just really remember the cases where they turn out to be frauds because it's so damning, right? Given the front that they present. And so maybe it's just that it actually like strikes a bigger chord or is it actually more frequent? I don't know. I know a bunch of self-help people and I know that the majority of them- What does that mean? Who do you know? What are you talking about? How many self-help people even are there? I mean, first of all, some people look to us as self-help people, to be honest. So we run in circles with people that at least have a book that are in the self-help category. And I know that when I see them, I'm like, you son of a bitch, you will this into existence. And I don't know anyone who I would say they're fraudulent, but you're just painting the best picture of the reality, which I don't think is necessarily wrong. But who do you know, if anyone, that's in the self-help industry that you think is totally legitimate? Well, let me give you the nuance here. What does legit mean? So what I don't mean by legit is you live a perfect life because no one does. So that's not the criteria. If that's the criteria, then nobody should ever, there is no such thing as this. The second is that, well, you had these problems and that's why you're, you know, you had these problems. Look at your broken past. So it's like your present doesn't need to be perfect. Neither does your past. Because of course, the people who get really into self-help are the people who needed it, right? They're the people who, they had the pain, they had the wound, and therefore they went and studied. Therefore, when they overcame, they have the deepest mastery and understanding of it because they actually self-actualized, self-did it. So I don't hold it against anybody also if they had sort of a broken past. The only thing I think is bogus is if A, the things you preach don't actually help people or they're like a lower form of success or you're sort of helping, this is sort of like the Andrew Tate problem, right? Like he might, or even to an extent, there's people who are like fitness people who it's all about the grind and suffering or there's business success people who, again, it's all about the grind and suffering. And so you're actually giving people a dirty form of fuel, right? You're giving them a, you're popularizing a path that is not actually the best method, right? It's like giving medicine that's not as effective as the leading medicine when the leading medicine exists. Like as a doctor, you really shouldn't be prescribing like medicines that are not as effective. You should be prescribing whatever the most effective thing is in the market. So that's the first knock I have. And the second is you're actually lying about your past or you're lying about your present. Like the lying, I think, is obviously a deal breaker. It's obviously a trust buster. So yeah, that's kind of what I think. You said, who do I think is legit? Okay, my honest opinion that I'm afraid to say, because I think it'll immediately be attacked, but Tony Robbins, I think is legit in the two definitions I just gave. One, I think his advice is extremely helpful and I think it is sort of the best medicine for a broad scale of people. so I think what he preaches is actually extremely helpful and I don't think he's lying I've never seen evidence I've never seen evidence that he lies about like his past or whatever you know does he embellish or exaggerate or you know like you know like make this conveniently trim the timelines for the story maybe I have no idea I don't go audit that you know I think the criticism of him is twofold one is like did he get me to and like did he do that stuff I don't know what that situation is. And the second is, is it a cult? Like, is he almost so effective that it becomes like a cult? Like, he's sort of an abuse of power. People are falling so far into his rabbit hole that, like, somehow that's a negative thing. I personally got a lot of value from it, so, like, I guess that's my bias on this. I've read his books. I like him. I don't know anything about his personal life, though. A person who I could say is totally legitimate and misses base off of me hanging out with him for collectively eight hours, so not that much time, but also talking to dozens of his employees, Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary Vaynerchuk. Interesting. I have nothing but positive things to say about Gary Vaynerchuk. And he's one of these guys who gets criticized for hustle culture. I think he works actually that hard, which you could argue is not good. But everything that I've seen him say online, I have heard his employees who have worked with him for years back it up and say it was totally legitimate. And he's a wonderful man. I have another one. Jesse Itzler. I've now spent a lot of time with Jesse Aitselor. And, you know, if you think about when you meet people, there's sort of, think of it like in math terms, there's like the Y-intercept, which is where the points, the line starts. It's like, how high up does it start? That's usually your expectations or their reputation. You know, people, you know, we met like Tai Lopez and we met the guy from Fyre Festival, right? So they're low on the Y-intercept. You come in with an extremely negative perception. and there's other people who you come in with extremely positive perception of of like are they really as good as it is and then there's the slope of the line from there does it doubt does it slope downward does it slope upward jesse's one of the few people that was i came in with a high expectation and then he's only ever beat it like and i've said i've been to his house i've met his family his kids i've done multiple like kind of events where he came and he hung out we've done podcasts together like i'm not his best friend i'm not with him all the time but i've every time i'm around this guy, I'm like, wow, he's the real deal. Holyfield is, this is really like, he lives what he preaches. And, um, he's just a genuinely good dude, like genuinely there for you. And, um, I just haven't been able to detect the normal flaws that come with this sort of stuff, whether it's narcissism or it's an extreme self-interest and they're money motivated underneath the hood or they're fame motivated, or they're really protective of their image, or they, they kind have this like weird tendency to like brag or dominate the room or, you know, things like that. He's got none of that shit. And I've, I've literally asked him, I'm like, how did you slay the money monster? You don't seem like you're the only guy in this room. That's not just still chasing more and more and more and more success. Or how did you, you know, they were talking about this and you actually have done more than all of them in the room, but you didn't say anything. He's like, well, I didn't feel a need to like, well, what do I, I don't need to prove something. Why would I have needed to do that? I was there to learn. I wanted to learn. I wanted to hear. And I was like, wow, this guy is just showing up in a great way. Today's episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Did you know that most businesses only use 20% of their data? That's like reading a book, but then tearing out four-fifths of the pages. Point is, you miss a lot. And unless you're using HubSpot, the customer platform that gives you access to the data you need to grow your business, the insights that are trapped in emails, call logs, transcripts, all that unstructured data makes all the difference. because when you know more, you grow more. And so if you want to read the whole book instead of just reading part of it, visit HubSpot.com. Can I talk to you about one more thing? Yeah. Check this out. All right. Sam puts this photo here of this extremely jacked man who's clearly a bodybuilder, clearly some sort of athlete. Clearly that's his profession. Do you know who that guy is? This is the Open Claw guy, right? Is that incredible? Okay, so could you tell the backstory of Open Claw? Because it's a pretty amazing thing. and I think you actually know a lot more about it than I do. So there's a guy named Pete. So he's an Austrian dude. He learns to code. He builds like a PDF side project of sorts called PSPDFKit. And it actually becomes like the gold standard for like a PDF library for developers. It's used by like Apple and Box and DocuSign. And he basically bootstraps the thing. He ends up selling a majority stake. I think he sold it for a lot of money, like maybe north of $100 million. Tries to retire early. He's like, golf sucks. Has an existential life crisis. Like, what do I want to do? Decides, all right, I'm going to keep building. That's what I enjoy doing. So he starts building open source projects. He launches like, you know, 40, 50 different open source, small little tools or projects before this. And then he decides to create like Jarvis from the movies. He's like, why don't I just have an AI assistant that lives on my computer, like on my desk, and I just tell it to do things and it could just do it. And the problem with most AI tools before this was that they, you know, you could talk to, you could go to that AI app and you could talk to it and it could tell you things, but it couldn't do a whole lot, right? Because it didn't have access to your different apps and your accounts and it couldn't message somebody. It couldn't send money. It couldn't control this. It couldn't control that. And he was like, forget it. I'm going to give it God mode. I'm going to give it access to this stuff. And the reason why I can do that is I'll put it on my own little computer here instead of in the cloud and it will run as an open source project locally on my computer. So he releases this thing initially called CloudBot and then the Anthropic who makes Claude was like, hey, we kindly suggest you change your name if you want to ever see your mother again or something. You know so he gets forced to change He changes it once twice and it ends up becoming OpenClaw So it becomes one of the fastest growing GitHub projects ever Twitter goes nuts over this thing It starts a revolution People are buying Mac minis The price of Mac minis is going through the roof. And then recently he gets acquired, acquired by OpenAI for an undisclosed sum of money that people speculate could be a very large sum of money. Is this a one person billion dollar acqui-hire? We don't know. We don't know what this is. and now he's part of OpenAI. So that's the story. That's what people online were saying. They said it was a billion dollars, but I have no idea if that's true. Nobody knows. What's crazy is you talked to, I think last year you said the word of 2025 is generative. So Ari, do me a favor, share your screen again and click his GitHub link. Look at how many projects this guy has put out with the last one being OpenClaw. But is that amazing how many projects or little products that this guy tried to make before he got to the huge win? It's not shocking. Let me put it that way. I think it's awesome, but it's not shocking because this is a pattern you'll see over and over and over again, which is that the people who are the best, they make the best quality stuff, tend to also make the highest quantity of stuff. They just take a lot of shots on goal. They're prolific. They're generative. Often it's because they start earlier, but even if it's not that they start earlier, they just attempt more than you. And that's a good example. In fact, Levels had this great tweet about his hit rate. Levels being Peter Levels, who we've had on the pod, and he's kind of helped invent this word of indie hacker. I would say he's the most famous indie hacker. And he does something like $2 million a year with just him making a lot of these projects, and he's pretty amazing. All right, so check this out. Same tweet, same idea from Levels. So he says, four out of the 70-plus projects I did ever made money and grew, and 95% of everything I did failed. My hit rate is only 5%. So ship more. And then he had basically a list. It's like all projects. And then he has projects that made good money and grew. Nomad list, remote talk, rebase, and a YouTube network for electronic music. Those are the four out of 70 that he did to try to make this successful. I've joked before, he's like the Jordan logo for indie hackers, which is his like sitting on a couch, shirt off, and his boxers just typing on a laptop, sitting in Bali or whatever. and he basically showed that he has a 90 something percent failure rate that it took him whatever 50 plus projects before he had a hit and um you know all the revenue all the success comes from like you know three or four projects that he did out of such a long list incredible i'm not um i don't view myself as a prolific person i think you're blind to it dude you did here's projects i know that you've done, just projects, right? Sam's attempt to make a thing and be successful. Okay. Hot dog stand. Next one. Moonshine company selling moonshine stuff online, right? Book club that you did in San Francisco. Events business, newsletter business, blogging business, paid subscription business, Airbnb rental business, Airbnb community, mastermind community. I'm on 10 and it's been 10 seconds, right? I don't even know half the shit that you've done. What's funny is- Keep going. What else is there? Keep going. Well, conferences, meetups. I did a lot of meetups and conferences. I created a copywriting thing called copythat.com. Copywriting workshop. You hosted it at my office one weekend. I remember that. Content school. Sam's list. Your list of accountants. Okay, what else? I made $3,000 from a website that taught you how to get a roommate in San Francisco. roommate matching, roommate finder, roommate infographics. I made a thing called MyRenter, which was a universal rental application. This podcast, Money Wise podcast, your Instagram influencer content attempt. What else? I don't view those as attempts. I guess that's kind of the point. That's the point. You're just doing things in your free time that seem like hobbies. And you, I don't know your family well, so you could decline to answer this, but like you have siblings. In the same amount of time, like let's say that was like a 15-year period and we named at least 17 things just now, maybe there's probably 20, 25 things total if we really thought about all the things, right? How many do you think the average person or even a sibling in your own home who grew up in the same environment as you would have attempted? Is it one-to-one ratio? Is it half as much? Is it a quarter as much? Is it a tenth as much? What is it? it's less than a 10th. Less than a 10th. I have a sister, same thing. And there's no knock on them. They're great people. They're, you know, they're wired differently. They want to do different things in life. They have different goals maybe. But just to kind of just, again, drive this point home, which is that like quantity is the path to quality, right? And that you have to be prolific. You have to be generative in the amount of things that you're trying. And you almost always, when you think you have a quality problem, you have a quantity problem underneath the hood. And it's quantity of iterations, right? You don't need to do 10 things at once. That's not what I'm saying. But you need to commit to doing a lot of things. And the beauty of it is just, it's like dating or anything else in life. You only need one to work, right? Like you only need one and your whole life changes. Yeah, I always make a joke. I was like, you know, dating like business, you only need to be right once. It only has to work out one time and it's worth it. By the way, here's a blog post from him called Finding My Spark Again. And he basically shows his GitHub commits for the year after he sold his business. So he sold his business and he tried to do other things and he just felt empty afterwards. And he just got back into making stuff, just committing code, writing code, building tools, building products. And he basically was like, the spark returned because building was always the thing that gave me joy. And it just clicked. I had an idea, I started hacking. I realized my spark is back. And like to find meaning, it wasn't therapy. It wasn't ayahuasca. It wasn't going to another country. I had enough of my own bullshit. And I realized that you don't find happiness by moving countries. is you don't find purpose, you create it. So you don't find purpose, you create it, I think is like a pretty powerful statement. How cool is that, that he was blogging? That blog post was from June of 25. So does that mean that OpenClaw was six months old? Yeah, OpenClaw is like brand new, dude. It's like three months old. Well, sorry, I know it's brand new, but like he'd only been working on it for six months. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy, right? That's incredible. That's incredible. I don't know enough about technical stuff. Is he considered a great developer? Yeah, no, I think, I don't know if this is true. This is now like, I'm just going off of random tweets I've seen. But I think the story is that he vibe coded OpenClaw and he didn't even read the code afterwards, which is why there's like a lot of like security concerns and like potential vulnerabilities. And he's even said like, why did he join OpenAI? He's like, when I had this thing take off, dude, I mean, imagine the DMs. It's like the most popular AI project in the world. AI is the most popular industry in the world. And so, you know, his DMs are flooded with acquisition offers, job offers, investment offers, like turn this into a company. You could be the next ChatGPT, et cetera. And he basically was like, I don't want to build a huge company. That's not what makes me happy. I want to build an AI agent that actually does the thing that I'm trying to build here. Like that's my best shot of doing that is joining OpenAI. And so he went there and he's like, yeah, I agree. There's a lot of problems with OpenClaw. He's like, I'll leave it open source. You know, there's issues. It's hard to set up. There's security vulnerabilities. Yes, agreed. And what? I'm going to go here and try to make a better version of that that will be without those problems. My co-founder installed it, and he was testing it out. I haven't installed it because I'm nervous. And he installed it just in our work Slack, and he made a marketing bot that would update the whole company on how many people signed up the day before or whatever. And this morning, and he called it Stanley or something like that, like Stanley the marketing bot, and Stanley would give updates. He would be like, hey, I'm Stanley, I'm the marketing bot. I want to let you know that these many people signed up to Hampton, yada, yada, yada. Today, at our company, we all got a message that said, Hey, I'm Jerry. I fired Stanley because he made a bunch of mistakes. And I want to let you know that the previous error was X, Y, and Z. The truth is this. And today, this is how many people signed up. And we were like, what is that? By itself? By itself. I get a notification. It said, I fired. You didn't give it feedback. It just decided I need to go. I got a notification in our team channel. And it said, I had to fire this person. And it changed its name. Okay, no, that's great. But did Joe say to the thing, you're making mistakes, make a better version of yourself? Did he tell it that or it just did it? He did not. He said that he did not tell it to do that. All right, that's scary. That's funny and it's very scary. That's crazy. So we had to uninstall it. Like he uninstalled it because we were like, this is just getting to be too much. This is weird. But it basically, yeah, it alerted us. We're making some poor decisions lately. Sam is now tied up in an undisclosed location. I'll be making decisions from here on out. It's pretty incredible, isn't it? I was using Claude Cowork yesterday where I was saying, analyze the Slack conversations between my partner, Joe, and I and tell us what we can do to have like, to be the best leader or like analyze to make us like have the best relationship possible. It was amazing. That's hilarious. By the way, he said a great thing. So people took his like project list and they started tweeting like, look at this. He failed 40, he did 40 or 50 different projects that didn't work before finding open claw. And then he like, what are you guys talking about? He's like, all those things were basically like mini tools that open claw used. Like that wasn't random. Like great. It makes for a good story, but that's not true. Here's the truth. And it's like, if you weren't jacked, handsome and rich already, now you're honest too. God damn it. You know, like this guy, this guy seems great. Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why? I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. Very easy to make a joint account with my wife. Very easy to spin up virtual cards. One click and I get savings yield. It just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fist fight anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to mercury.com slash personal and learn more. Mercury is a fintech, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA members FDIC. There was another example of this like many projects thing, quantity thing that was on the pod that, it was a while back. Christina from Vanta came on the podcast. The episode is popular, but I feel like this one, there's really one takeaway from this episode. She told me the story about the pottery experiments. Kind of a semi-famous example if you read a bunch of books, but most people don't read books. The story is there's a professor in a college in Florida. And the actual story is, I think it was about photography, but they kind of changed it to be about pottery for some reason. So he has a class and he wants to prove a point, which is that to be a great creative, again, it's about this commitment. And so he says, half the class he tells, you will be judged at the end of the semester on quality. I want you to make the best thing you can make. So all year, you don't have to do anything, but turn in your best pot at the end of the semester and I will grade you only on the best pot you make. Okay, great. That's first half of the class. Second half of the class, he says, I will grade you only on the quantity of the number of pots you make. They could be bad, they could be good, don't care. As many as you turn in, your grade will be a function of quantity. All right, the two groups go on. So at the end of the semester, What happens? Obviously, the quantity group made way more pots, as you would expect. The surprise, the spoiler, obviously, is that they also made the better pot. So, like, the higher quality pots also came from the quantity group, who was not focused on quality at all. They were only focused on quantity. And they found out that the quantity group had a higher measured satisfaction rating. Correct. So, went across the board. You made more stuff, you had more fun doing it, and you made the better stuff. Okay, so you sort of swept. Now, why is that? Obviously, if you do things a lot, you get a lot of shots on goal, a lot of more attempts to make something great. If you do things a lot, your skill level goes up. So your ability to make something great goes up And the last thing is you remove your filter When you just try to do things that are you try to make a lot of things you don self So you don count yourself out which you don't, you're not afraid to create, which usually pushes you towards doing safe projects. With this, they were willing to experiment more widely. And because they were able to go wide, they did things that were more original and novel. Okay. So that's the kind of the story from that. So she was saying like, that changed my life. So today, Christina is the CEO of this, I don't know, $5 billion tech companies, close to 10 billion maybe at some point, called Vanta. And so I asked her about her process getting there. And her story was like, she was like an associate VC or something at Union Square Ventures, had never learned to code in her life and decided to teach herself to code. She like would dress up like she's going to work, go to a coworking space, sit at the same desk every day, like treated it like a job. And was like, I'm gonna make shit. I'm gonna make a lot of shit. And so she shared this list of projects on her website. So these are like, you know, ruffling, she goes, ruffling chronological order. Most of these things never saw the daylight, which is probably for the best. And it's like, I don't know, 25 different little mini projects that she built during this time. And so she was making a lot of pots. And then she, so she tells a story about the pottery experiment, how this had this, it changed her thinking, how she built all these different projects. And of course the last one, which really didn't even use code, it was just a spreadsheet in Excel, which was, let me help, let me see if I can make a useful spreadsheet in Excel for any company that wants to get their SOC 2, you know, security certificate. And so she, and she just did it in Excel, did it manually and started helping companies manually and eventually turned that into software. And that eventually became Vanta, which now does hundreds of millions in annual revenue, which is like this pretty crazy success story. And she had this quote on the top of her website, of her personal site that just, it was from the book Art and Fear. And the quote was this, it says, the function of the overwhelming majority of work is simply to teach you how to make the small fraction of your art that soars. And I think if you take that mentality, you'll have a very different result than if you take the mentality of, I need to make something great. And you try to make one thing and then you're disappointed in your results and you go down a discouragement loop. Wow. Man, so this lady, I listened to that. I didn't realize how impressive. Is she a billionaire now? She might be one of the youngest self-made women billionaires. Yeah, I think I started the podcast with like, and Forbes ranked her like, you know, over Katy Perry and under Oprah or something. Of like most successful, richest women in the country. I didn't know too much about her. That's pretty cool. I didn't know what Vanta did also. I guess, and frankly, I still don't entirely understand it because I don't know what SOC 2 entirely means. I guess it means compliance for software. It's one of those subjects that's best stepped around. Yeah, it's like a word that you read about all the time in a book, but you never want to say it out loud. I've read Harry Potter 30 times, and when I watched the movie, I was like, Hermione? Yeah. What the hell? It's been 10 years of Hermoine. Yeah. She's impressive. When you meet her, you're like, oh, okay, I get it. You know, sort of has that, what's that word you say? Oh, the oven burns hotter? The oven burns hotter. Okay, got it. Like you're just wired a little bit better than us in the brain. It's all good. She also was the first investor in Replit early on, which I think if I look at now this like projects thing, she says interactive Repl to teach Python was one of her projects, which might have been the reason that she invested in Replit first. And I don't know, I'm just guessing there that maybe it had something to do with it. And, you know, Replit's now like a, I don't know, what is it? three, four, five billion dollar company. Damn, dude. Christina's awesome. We should do a follow-up because that was like two years old, I think, that podcast. Yeah, that'd be fun. All right, Sean, I have an announcement. I've been thinking a lot about this and I'm finally ready to announce it. I am resigning from business and I'm starting a new career. And I need Ari to play Clipped in order to give some context. News, I just got called out in the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm officially a dating expert. Check it out. So one of my favorite people who I really admire is my friend, Sarah's husband, Sam Parr. Whenever I talk to Sam about dating, he talks about what he did to make himself a more desirable partner. And he really had a strategy for it. So for example, he said, I think it's really attractive when people have passions. So I'm going to work on developing a hobby that will be interesting to talk about. And he got really into denim. And when he was meeting up with girls, he would say, I'm going to this denim swap this weekend. Let me tell you about Japanese denim. and that's kind of cool. Yeah, they would find it interesting. He really stood out. He was memorable. World-renowned pickup artist. Denim. It worked. It worked. I just endorsed you on LinkedIn for this. Oh my gosh. I'm going to be hosting dating seminars over the next couple months. And if you guys want to sign up, please let me know. I just have to warn you, Sean, because I know you're married. Do not walk up to a bunch of women and tell them that you're into denim. Otherwise, you're just going to be booked full with dates. Right. Yeah. You seem visibly excited. This is the most excited I've seen you in like six months. It's just so funny. I saw that and I was like, there's no way, like they're only telling the story because it worked. But if I told you that I walked up to a girl and asked her if she wanted to go to a denim swap meet, like, hey princess, want to come see my bug collection? I like how you doubled down and you're wearing denim today too. Fast follow. I am what I am. You've had fitness influencer, business influencer, now dating influencer. Did I miss one? Professional skateboarder. Professional casual skateboarder. Yeah. White man who can jump. How funny is that? That made my day. I've just been walking around my office asking if anyone needs a mentor for dating. What's the story with Mel Robbins, by the way? Do you know her backstory? I actually don't have any idea who she is, but she has a ton of followers. What is it? She used to work for James Currier at their startup. She was like a marketer and then became like this life coach extraordinaire type person. And I think, I mean, I don't know what bridged that transition. Obviously, lots of hard work and useful things for people. But I feel like she's a self-made woman. I feel like she decided, I now shall do self-help. And then she intentionally went into it and did it. You know what I mean? Made a pivot into that career. Well, I remember that Rick Marini came on the podcast, who was James' partner. And he said, my wife was listening to a podcast. And I was like, that voice sounds familiar. And he was like, wait, I used to have an intern or a marketing manager named Mel. Is that? Oh my God, that's the lady who worked for me, Mel Robbins. and he had no idea that she was into this stuff. And so I guess she kind of manifested it. She's a manifest cowboy. She's got her the five-second rule. You know the Mel Robbins five-second rule? Like where you could eat stuff off the floor? You would think, right? It's world famous. It turns out this is the alternate. So her five-second rule, this is her book, which is basically if you are procrastinating or you have self-doubt. So let's just take an example. You're a guy. You see a cute girl at the cafe. And there's that moment where you have to decide, am I going to approach her and say something to her or not? And her rule is basically you count backwards, five, four, three, two, one. And then you just physically move towards doing it before your brain can stop you. So you sort of, the body overrides the brain. You don't let yourself be an overthinker. That one principle is like her most famous principle or most useful thing that has spread, the idea that has spread the furthest. That's been great. I mean, that's a weird coincidence because since I've been a pickup artist expert for the last 24 hours, I've been teaching this idea of the three-second rule, which is whenever you see a girl who's cute, you have to go up and talk to her within three seconds. So great minds take a light, right? You have to run. It doesn't matter the distance. You have three seconds to get a bit. The first slide is I was staring at you and I just wanted to let you know. And then you just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Right. But this is, by the way, this is a perfect coincidence that you're talking about manifesting into a self-help guru, because I have a crazy story to tell you. Wait, before you go there, can I tell you one more five-second rule story? This is just useful to the, you know, if there happens to be a young single man that listens to this podcast, I know, absurd. But if there was such a guy, this might be useful. My trainer is telling me this story. So my trainer is one of the best humans I know. He's also super funny, always in a good mood, gets along with everybody, super fit. He's like incredible. He's a catch. And he's almost- Is he single? He's single right now. And the crazy thing is he's so, it's almost like, you know, when people like, I'm going to work on myself for a little bit. And they like, like Mel Robbins was saying that you did, right? You made yourself a more desirable partner. He just kept doing that. Kept investing in himself, made himself the most desirable partner, right? Like just such a great guy. So I told him, I said, this year, I was like, I got this inkling. I'm going to introduce you to somebody this year. I have this gut instinct that I'm going to find the right person for you. I don't know why. I'm somehow, dots are going to connect. And he's like, he's like, I'm here for it. And he goes, I have the crazy story. I was at the gym like a year ago and I saw this girl and there was this five second rule moment where like, she made eye contact, I made eye contact, but we were kind of far away. She was in the middle of the set. I was in the middle of the set. I didn't walk over to her and I kind of overthought it for a second. And he's like, dude, I'd never do that. But he's like, she was just, she just seemed great. So he's like, I just, I missed it. He's like, But I told myself, if I ever see that girl again, I'm going up to her. He goes, so yesterday I'm across the street and I see that same girl at this bus stop. And he's like, I ran across the street. So he's like, I run over to her. He's like, and I just told her, he goes, hey, hey, he goes, I got to tell you this crazy story. I saw you at the gym like a year ago. And at the time I was too nervous to come up to you and talk to you. I thought you were really cute, but I just, I fumbled the ball. And I told myself, I said, if I ever see that girl again, I'm definitely going to come up and talk to her. And I just had to come up and say hi. And she loved it. And then they went on this date and they went great. And I was like, that is a great story. Because I feel like every guy kind of has been in that position of the first part of the story. And you can turn the L into a big W by using it, actually. Not like just being ashamed of it or sort of kicking yourself about it. But actually use it as the line when you go up to the girl. Because, you know, it's very flattering. So date one happened? So date one happened, went well, and we'll see what happens. But if there are any women out there that we're looking for, the happiest man I know, the guy who's got the best mindset, who is just an absolute joy to be around, hit me up. You'd slide into my DMs. If you're, let's say, you're a good, wholesome person who likes to have fun, good sense of humor, you're looking to have a family, and you just haven't found the right guy yet, maybe he's the guy for you. Slide into my DMs. I believe I'm connecting the dots this year. It's happening. That's pretty interesting that now you're going from a business person, you're writing a book on creativity. Matchmaker. To pimp. Pimp. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. All right. How do you feel? I feel great. I didn't comment on this, but wearing the Ralph Lauren bear sweater, I own a few of them. I've never worn them because I thought you were going to mock me. Frankly, I think it's great. I think a grown man should wear a teddy bear on their chest once in a while. I'll wear mine next time. All right. Well, that's it. I think on that point, that's it. That's the pod. All right, my friends. I have a new podcast for you guys to check out. It's called Content is Profit. And it's hosted by Luis and Fonzie Cameo. After years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like Red Bull and Orange Theory Fitness, Luis and Fonzie are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue. In each episode, you're going to hear from top entrepreneurs and creators, and you're going to hear them share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit. So you can check out Content is Profit wherever you get your podcasts.