How to Make a Breakup as Healthy as Possible

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And I'm Noah Michaelson, director of Hubpost Personal. Welcome to Am I doing it wrong? The show that explores all two human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. So Raj, I was thinking about you this weekend because I saw Dr. Goldstein who was our pooping expert. Love him! Online and he was talking about how to have great poop. You need a lot of fiber. So it made me think of the pooping episode and then it made me think of the protein episode where we said fiber is the next it girl. That's right. And it sounds like maybe she is because even Dr. Butthole, as I like to talk about him, is talking about fiber. Oh, he knows. Yeah. So it was just kind of nice to see like our topics running wild out in the world. And I was just like, oh, we're actually on top of it. I want to be like, you heard it here first, but you heard it from Dr. Goldstein. Yeah. Anyways, we have a new topic this week. Okay. I want to know, are you doing breakups wrong? Oh my god. You and I in the world knows I have never done a break up right in my life. Who amongst us? Right. Have you ever, do you do breakups right? No, we're going to get into this, but I was, I was not a goaster, but I was a slow fader. I would just sort of like dip out of people's lives because I was too chicken to actually tell them how I felt. It's fair. No, it's so unfair. Actually, it's awful. I'm protecting you, but I appreciate that. But like, no, I'm a terrible breaker, upper and I would like to meet someone actually who's a good breaker, upper. I don't know if that exists. No, this person has not ever been in love then. But maybe after this show, everyone will be better. We have someone to coach us though. Shadine Francis is a psychotherapist, sex therapist and cultural strategist whose expertise bridges mental health, relational wellness and social justice. All right. Let's ditch that relationship. It's not yet. Shadine, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So before we start, I guess we should just say obviously breakups are not a one size fits all situation. They're always going to be different depending on who's been in the relationship, what's happening. But we're going to try and get like to the meat of most of things that could happen, I think. Before we get there, what should we do before we even think about breaking up? If we see the signs that maybe we're headed that way, what's your advice if we're seeing the red lights flashing? I invite people to check in with themselves, which sounds like very straightforward advice, except you will notice how quickly folks go from, oh, something's wrong, should we break up? Right. And even just being able to slow down that moment enough to check in, what is happening for me right now? Is this a feeling? Is this a reaction to a moment? Are we in a immediate crisis? Or has this been like brewing for some time? Yeah. Being able to just like slow down and check in around, is this about something that I'm feeling right now? Or is this about something that I'm reacting to in sort of the larger pattern of our relationship? Okay. You know, my therapist once said something similar to me when I was like panicking about a previous relationship and being like, are we going to break up? And she was like, look, you guys are having a conflict right now. But breakups happen for the most part when there's been a growing problem or like a pattern of things. And then it becomes unbearable or whatever. So like, think, you really got to checking in with yourself is such a good advice. And related to that, I wanted to ask like, chances. How many chances are we giving something before it becomes a pattern? You know, like for a second, third, or is it just kind of like depends on the situation? It's going to depend on not just the situation, but the person. Right? That some of us have different patients for different kinds of frustrations or frictions. Many things grow quietly over time as we were just saying. Some things are an immediate like red flag or hard cross of the boundary. And we do kind of have a sense of the things that are like, oh no. If this happens between us or if this happens out in the world, like, I am out. That's out, out, out. And so more than like how many chances do you give someone it's checking in on like, where does this fall in terms of my boundaries? Because most issues actually aren't urgent. When I'm working with folks and I tend to see a lot of like high conflict couples, people who have been fighting for a long time. This question really does become like, how do I know when it's time to call it quits? You know, the should I stay, should I go conversation is kind of one for the ages. And it has a lot to do with like, when are you done trying to work on this? And as a therapist, do you notice that some people have more tools than others? Like, like you said patients, is that about like, you're more equipped to kind of handle conflict? Whereas other people maybe aren't as much? Well, something like patients has a lot to do with how much you can kind of hold in a moment without an immediate response. And that doesn't mean you're passive. It just means you're not quick to disrupt or interrupt a situation in the exact moment it's happening. You have enough sort of emotional tolerance to be intentional rather than just reactive. That's mostly what patients is. People think that it's like, oh, I'm fine with everyone. It's more about how you can delay your own sort of instinctual response to like handle it now. And like being with discomfort? Yeah, you know, I have a very healthy relationship with my boyfriend, which I'm very happy to say, but like that I started therapy last year. I'm probably going to talk about it so much the season because I love therapy. I'm like the cliche when you get back in therapy and you're like, I want to talk about this therapy. One of the things I'm working on too is like having that moment of delay as well. I feel something and not reacting immediately. So I think even in good relationships, that's also a school problem. Yeah. Right. And it can be as simple as like a three second pause. Yes. And you don't notice how long three seconds is until you're in conflict or in a conversation like this. And it's just dead air. That's it. Right. It's terrifying. Right. All of a sudden we're all like, right. But I could see how that could be like life changing because sometimes I react even before the other person has stopped talking with the like, are you fucking kidding? Right. Right. Perhaps the three seconds would be wonderful. It makes a huge difference. And the overlap is really normal in conversation. But when we up the ante and turn this into conflict, it is meaningful for us to slow down because we're going to miss a lot of what's happening just for the pure fact that like I'm in my feelings and usually they're pretty big feelings. And so to circle this back to your question around like, how does this show up maybe differently for people with different tools. Yes, patience is a skill because it might allow more space in a conversation for feelings to come out. And sometimes we need a little bit of time to get to our truths. But also it can be really helpful in these breakup conversations. Anyone who makes a practice of naming how they feel regularly. And so yes, you can start here at the end. It's not maybe our favorite place to start, but starting is better than not. Our breakups go better if people had a sense that, oh, there are things that we could be working on that aren't going well for me. That makes sense. I mean, we are going to move into the breakup now. That's why we're here to talk about breakups. And I think Raj and I are excited to talk like sort of nuts and bolts about breakups. We could do it at a very high level. But let's get into some of the things like you've decided you're going to break up. Are there better places or times to do it? Like just where would you logistic logistic subit? Yeah, like let's start with like location. Where's a good place to do it or not do it? So we're going to have this conversation with the assumption that folks are not in danger. Yeah. So I want to start there because for anyone who is in a relationship that they're trying to leave for threats of safety, right? Physical safety, financial harm, even some of our like more intense like emotional manipulations. Those are going to require some different considerations. And so the thing that I can say there is you're probably going to want public. You're probably going to want someone to know where you are and where you're going after. It's probably a good idea to have a plan for if things were to escalate in terms of how do you get access to your things? Do you have access to your accounts? Where is your support community things like that? But for the average breakup of like, oh, we have a relationship that isn't going well for me or for us because it can be a mutual thing that we're working on. Neutral space is usually pretty good or if you're not living together like doing it at their place, which people have all sorts of feelings about. But if you're being the bearer of bad news, allowing someone to like be in their comfort space and not have to take a 45 minute, you know, train ride after this, you know, you can leave when you're done and you don't have to feel like you have to wait for them to finish their emotional process for you to transition. That quite often doing it either in completely neutral territory or their space is helpful, but also acknowledging that some people have long distance relationships. So again, it might be a little controversial, but I'm not anti like phone call or FaceTime or text message because are you going to travel four hours to break up with someone and then travel back? Right. Some of the logistics don't really make sense. I did that once. I traveled somewhere because I met that feel. I felt better to me. I needed, but I was the one that had to travel home and I was the breaker upper. So I had mentally prepared. But the in person, if you really care about someone and it's not like a volatile situation, it's more like I wish you well type of thing. Yeah. Sure. So meaningful. Yeah. But it's all about like what kind of breakup it is. I will say to I had my last breakup was really bad and he dumped me like in the streets of New York. And I have like a breakdown on the street. It happened all of us. That was not pretty. And I felt like kind of unkind. Yes. And the other thing he did too is not just that space, but we were kind of having a rough time and then we went to dinner and he was so nice to me at dinner held my hands like I was like, Oh, things are getting better for us. And then after dinner, he dumped me and I was like, why do we go to dinner first? Why were you so nice to me before dinner? And I think it probably had to do with his own shit. But I would say in my advice would be like, don't like just do it. Like don't leave someone to root that nonsense. People are going garbage. Yeah. You've thoughts about that. I imagine part of what was really hard about that is the it feels like a flip. Yes. And so now it feels disingenuous. All of the exchange that we had to this point at a different level of make. And vulnerability and to bridge even both of your experiences, you traveling all of this way and making this effort to be in person. But then we're also acknowledging, oh, not all in person is considered equal. Yeah. I would love for us to remember even as we're leaving a relationship that we're leaving not just the relationship we're leaving a person. Yeah. And we might have complicated feelings about this person at the end of the day. But if we can aim for a good goodbye, it does all of us a great service to not continue to put, you know, sort of harmful or negative energy out into the space. And some people might be like, I don't, I don't owe you that. You know, especially when we get to a place in a relationship where we felt really betrayed. Right. Right. Or where there's been a lot of like contempt now. So over the time we've lost not just love for each other. It felt sense of love for each other, but contempt is I no longer respect you. Right. And so it can be really hard to show up well for people when we don't have respect for them. So I invite people to think of it as respect for yourself. Right. That as you are ending a thing that cleaner, you can end it for yourself. That really sets you up for the kind of trajectory that you want to be on for future relationships. I love that. I just had this conversation with my current partner. The other day we were talking about how even though we've like really hated some people that we've broken up within the past that we've always we think taken the high road because if you don't it will follow you. Absolutely. Like just the guilt and the like crazy. Like we've been like we wanted to say other things and do other things and like perhaps step out on them and whatever. But like something was like that's going to ruin us. That's like doing a disservice to us and who we believe we are. I'm you know an anxious person. I'm a Scorpio like whatever that means. I've wanted to be terrible to people. But like I'm like how am I going to feel about myself tomorrow? I'm proud of you. That's great. But you know what I mean? It's exactly what you're saying. It's like about us at the end. How we feel about ourselves. And there is no like a racer of history. Even if we start a new relationship, everything that came before it isn't gone. And so the way that we close does impact the way that we open. And all of that time in between and I do think it costs us something ethically, spiritually, emotionally to do harm when it could have been prevented. Yeah. And that's not the same as like oh I hurt someone's feelings. Totally different. That is inevitable and there are going to be harms that happen in the world. We're going to have pain and negative feelings. That's just the reality of being. But when we put sort of the extra energy into being cruel, there is a cost. There is an emotional cost. And I would love for us to stay in touch with that. I'm not anti-gilt. I think people as a therapist imagine that I'm like you know and I smile a lot. So I think because all of my work is centered around emotions that people assume, oh I'm going to center like happiness and pride and all of these things. My work is a lot about grief and rage. And it's not just because of the place that people come in at and you know in crisis. But it's because those are places where if we had different skills, we would actually perpetuate less trauma with each other. So if I can be angry but not turned to violence, I can do what anger wants us to do which is advocate for our cross boundaries or unmet needs. And I actually don't have to call you a blankly blank blank blank blank. Yes. You know even though it feels good. That's a great point. So one more actually in the conversation about the breakup. I love this idea of like trying to choose to do as good as you can or trying to do the least amount of trauma that you can. What else should we be thinking about? I've read some more like use I statements, you know what would you suggest in the actual heart of the conversation? Yeah. Our our breakups use a lot of the same tools as like good fighting. Uh-huh. Even though your breakup doesn't have to be a fight because it can be mutual. But the same rules kind of apply. So I do live me an I statement. Uh-huh. You're so hard to examine. There with your emotion a little. It's a lot of practice. I love a you. We do love a you. We love a good you or we we love we love the I caveat right the I feel like you I feel like you right it's so hard to tell a story without being referential of the other person. Especially if I met you right you know. So we love a good I statement feeling words right and I I really try. Um and get people to like dig on those feeling words. So if I'm going to be annoying that's the most likely place where I'm going to do it. Yeah. So it's not I feel disrespected right the question is how does being disrespected make you feel. Yeah right. And so I want you to get into the emotion not the meaning not the judgment and we jump to stories so quickly. Right. So I think you can do with I feel you know judge I feel disrespected I actually don't know what that feels like I know what that experience is. So I really encourage us to get really literal right even if it just has to be a body sensation right like I can feel my blood boiling right now. And that least someone has a sense of where you're at in the moment. Yeah. We don't have to justify or over explain. We're going to ask about that right. But it does help to give some clarity some understanding. Uh huh. And so if this is feeling like a really long list for people the shortcut that I always give is clear and kind. Be as clear as you can be as kind as you can. Yeah. And that keeps us from doing the coddling that people think that they're doing when they like soften things or you know trying to beat around the bush. That's not it's not kind. We often treat people as though they are fragile. We are tender. We are sensitive but we're not fragile in that way. We're actually owed the respect of clarity. The truth. Right. And so clear and kind. Clear and kind. How should we be responding to another person's emotions. Yeah. And they can run the spectrum. Absolutely. People have the hardest time receiving people's anger. Mm hmm. And anger is very likely in an unexpected breakup. Because it's reflective of an unmet need. Anger is the feeling that that's just know that a boundary is being crossed or a need is going unmet. And so we tend to be angry about endings we don't want because what's going to happen we're going to have needs go unmet. Right. And so really hard time receiving that especially if I'm doing the thing that is right for me it makes you angry. And I feel like that emotion too is like one of the first ones that we reach for because in our culture we know about anger. And so like grief or sorrow or being afraid which is actually the emotion we might be feeling we don't go for those. Anger is less vulnerable. Yeah. That's the first thing we reach for I think. And it makes us feel more powerful than some of the other places. Right. We can be really self-righteous in our anger. And so we feel really clear in anger. But as we get to some of the others that you mentioned sadness and fear we have much more uncertainty. And we don't love that. Right. And it's hard for us to receive also other people's like pain especially if we've caused it. Most of us do not want to be responsible for someone hurting. And so how do we receive that in some ways it's taking that at least three seconds pause to good, deep belly breaths in the moment. And just bearing witness to another person having a feeling they are allowed to have the feelings that they feel. And so we're not actually listening for facts. You know that sure there might be lots of truths that come out in our big feelings. But mostly this is a point in time for empathy and compassion. Empathy being like I know what that feeling feels like. Right. I have an internal reference for what it is like to be shocked, afraid, angry, devastated, to be rejected. Rejection is so crazy for the human spirit. It really is. It's kind of like so personal. I found this question on Reddit. I have such a love hate with Reddit. I spend my I go to bed with Reddit every night. And I learn amazing stuff. And then I see things that I'm like I wish I hadn't seen that. It's the whole spectrum of human. But I thought this question really gets at something that I think a lot of us experience when we date. So this guy said I'm in a relationship with a girl for four or five months now. She treats me well, but I just don't feel the spark. And I don't want to prolong this because in a few years I think that I'll just be feeling like I'm stuck. And I don't want to stay in it just because she's nice. But she is a nice girl and I don't want to hurt her. I just know the longer the strikes on the more it's going to hurt. What are you doing in a situation like that? What do you tell someone when there is no real reason that you're breaking up with them? Well, first I love their clarity and their self-knowing. Even though there was a little bit of uncertainty in there. They said I just don't feel it. And so we could do a whole like set of things. And so we could do a whole like segue about like this cultural phenom about the spark. Yeah. They're saying I'm done. And this person is nice and that sucks. Yeah. And the simple answer is like yes. It does. I mean, you don't know exactly what she feels on the other end. She actually might be mirroring that. That's really true. Oh, this person is really nice. But it doesn't feel the way I know it could feel or the way I want it to feel. Yeah. And so we just talk about that. And we don't have to make it a negotiation if it isn't one. If this person is clear, I am done. The kind and clear and respectful thing that you can do for a nice person is to have a good ending with them that allows them to be in a relationship with someone who is excited to be in a relationship. Right. You know, it's interesting because when I when I posed that question, I said he's saying there's no reason why he's doing it. He did say there is a reason. But I think in my head and like and culturally we think like there isn't like you have to have an actual like X, Y and C. This is why the relationship isn't working. And that's not the truth. There's also I like another segue of Ireland, you know, another digression. I just think that our society's obsessed with coupledom. Yeah. And that's why the person might be like feeling if there's no good reason we don't have to break up. No, you're fine on your own. Yeah. You're or with someone else. But I love this idea too that it could be a gift to that person too and say like this is not I can't be as good to you as you deserve to be. And I think that sounds like a cop-out sometimes. It's not that little stuff hard for me. It's you. It's me. It's not you. It's not me. It's me. It's not you. And I think whenever we hear that, we shut down a little bit and we think no you're lying. You're just not being true to me about what you don't like about me. Because it is overused and it's a cliche and there are ways in which it is not truthful. Right. That I am actually saying there is something between us that doesn't work for me. Right. Right. And we don't actually have to soften that. You don't have to name it either. You can say it's not a good bit. Yeah. I mean, people might want more clarity than that. And so if you have it, it might be useful to offer. Right. But in that moment, it is true that you are just communicating about yourself. I am saying this is what I am looking for. Right. And so that doesn't have to be a judgment about another person, but we also don't have to do a whole like packaging or announcement. You know that it's not you. It's me. You know, sort of sort of deal. Because we already start to lose each other in that moment. Right. This is kind of related maybe too. But I feel like sometimes I have friends even. They've been on a few dates. So three or four maybe they're not in a relationship with this person. They actually don't really want a lot of rig and a roll about if someone's going to dump them or say I don't want to see you anymore. They just want to hear that and be done with it because they're just like. We don't even know each other that well. Like you don't have to spend a friend of mine got a text and the guy went like it was like four paragraphs and he's like. You're great. And I want to say there's if we're not a match. What are your thoughts about that kind of situation? Yeah, sometimes we in our like conflict. We're doing a lot that we think is for the other person and it's for us. Yes. Right. So we've hung out three times and then I am sending you a book report. That suggests like, oh, that that might be a lot about about my stuff coming out. Yeah. Although usually well intended like I want to be. I want to be kind to you sometimes we lose clarity in that. A simple rule of thumb is to let the sort of intensity or commitment of the relationship be reflected in the closure. Yeah. Right. So in the same way that it might kind of be inappropriate to send a text message to someone you're married to to be like, hey. Right. You know, that that tone doesn't match up. That also it doesn't quite match up to like have a big like meeting farewell send off for someone that you've gone on two dates with. Yeah, I wouldn't want that. Most people most people don't. It's incongruous. I mean, we have this really beautiful dinner where we're being really loving and then I break up with you on the street. Right. That when we have those those tones that don't match, it sits with us and it complicates our closure. Okay, that being said, I have strong feelings about this. It's posting ever okay. Is it ever appropriate? I mean, we could come up with something. Yeah, I'm sure my honest position on it is that it's unkind. Yeah. And I think it's only permitted because we have this. I really do believe a social relationship to one another through technology. I think you're absolutely right. I'm not I'm not anti tech, but I do think that a lot of the ways that we have used our tech has allowed us to be anti social even as we're in relationships. You know, we're on a date and we're both sitting here on our phones and we haven't said anything to each other, but maybe we're exchanging memes like on a digital platform. But I haven't looked to you in the eye or we haven't been in physical contact. You wouldn't ghost someone like in person. Like imagine how weird you that would be right. Like I'm here with you. And then I just like right. Yeah. And I never respond to you again. Yeah. Ever you just like are saying things to me. I think that we wouldn't do that. No, we wouldn't, but I think you're right. I think so many of us now don't know how to like I have friends who don't even want to make a phone call to make a doctor's appointment because they aren't don't know how to talk to someone on the other end of the line. So the idea of actually having a sit in front of someone and say I don't want to be with you anymore. That terrifies the man. People I really feel judgmental about. Yeah. Just say the thing. I know it's uncomfortable. Like I was in a situation ship once where the guy kind of like petered off and like came back many months later and was like, I really want to be friends. I valued our friendship. And I was like, if you had told me you wanted to stop seeing me, we could have had a project. Yeah. But you were weird about it. I am that I was that guy. I was. I was. I literally. I love to slow fade. So I wouldn't just go someone. But I stopped texting as much and like, you know, I wasn't as enthusiastic. And I literally a couple months ago. Email the guy. I dated him 12 years ago, probably. And I said, listen, again, I've been in therapy. So many. And I have realized that the way that I ended things with you was really unfair to you. And I want to make sure that you know that wasn't about you. Oh, so good. That was about me. That's really generous. He never replied to me. And I don't need him to, you know, and maybe he didn't need that for me. But like, yeah, I just did the slow fade. And we had been together for like five or six months. He deserved better than that. You know, and so I think I think it, I think it's slimy. I think it's grimy. And I don't think we should do it. But, yeah. But I get why we do it. We aren't in touch with our feelings. We're scared. It's so scary. I get it. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. It's uncomfortable. And I think we have a pretty low tolerance for normal discomfort. And so then we up the anti by like, I've got 700 people in my phone right now. Right. Right. That it, everything feels so high stakes. But what we're talking about right now connects to where we were when we were talking about like how we end things. Yeah. We carry with us. And so you're saying like, oh, I'm like reflecting on some of my history. And oh, yeah, that, that wasn't the best version of me. I owed someone a different, a different kind of ending. It's, it's not only it just kind of like weird when we map it out on like what ghosting is, but it's cruel. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's cruel. And again, it's one thing if it's like you had some exchanges on an app you like met up one time and neither of you reached back out. But in a circumstance where it's like, oh, I really valued our friendship. Well, you wouldn't treat a friend that way. Yeah. You wouldn't just ignore them or never follow up. And yes, people get busy and yes, people fall out of touch. But for the kinds of relationships that we're talking to, there is a level of vulnerability. There is a level of access. There is a level of familiarity that it really can be heartbreaking for people. But more than than it's confusing because the other person is trying to make sense of the disappearance. And so it is a complicated grief when people talk about grieving. Yeah. If we were to make an analogous experience because our brains actually don't know the difference between different kinds of pain. Yeah. Physical pain and emotional pain impact the same regions of the brain. It's imagine losing a loved one, but you don't know what happened to them. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I can feel that in my body right now, something in my breakups that have been particularly hard, where like this person has been such an intimate part of your life and then they're not anymore. It's your entire spirit kind of panics. It's for a little while. Yeah. It's really messed up. And I want to just not be high in mighty about not ghosting people because while I haven't ghosted, I have lied about the reason for the breakup to spare someone's feelings. And I'm thinking about it and you talking about clarity, not cool. Like confusing to everyone involved. I also love what you said too earlier about like how the energy that we're carrying into our next relationship. Yeah. So if you're ghosting people doing slow, you know, slow fades, you're lying to people like then it's habitual at some point. Yes. And that takes a toll on you too. And it all goes back to not wanting to sit with discomfort. Right. And it's habit forming, right, which is part of I think what you're saying in this moment, right, that what we practice, we become. Yes. Relationally what we practice, we become. And so yes, there are all of these versions of us that are untapped. But who we are in the world and who we know ourselves to be is what we do repeatedly in the world. And so if I'm repeatedly having this process of I don't share how I feel, whether or not I'm ghosting, right. We can have all these other ways of diverting our self advocacy. Yeah. Right. If I make a practice of that, then that's what my life will be like. Yeah. And it will not stay contained in your romantic partnerships. For sure, if you make a practice of this with people you're dating, you are also going to see it in family of origin. You're also going to see it in your friendships. Yeah. And we don't talk about friendship breakups, but those can be incredibly painful too and have all of these same patterns. And you're going to experience it at work, right. The more you can practice, the way you want things to go, the more they will go that way. Blood test, scan, treatment, ash knows the drill by now. But there's something else that helps her to live with cancer. 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Because of you, amazing projects across the UK are supported every single day. Well, as a thank you, players can enjoy free entry and special deals at hundreds of iconic venues and hidden gems to your National Lottery Open Week, which runs from the 7th to the 15th of March. All you need is a National Lottery ticket. Visit National LotteryOpenWeek.com and unlock something new this spread. Tee-s and C's apply. What about your advice for someone who just got broken up with? What are some of the ways to cope? Let's talk about that. What do you think? A lot of the same stuff applies. Some of the pacing is often different because for the person who initiated the breakup, often they have had time to sit and get clear. And so they've had a head start on all of these emotional stuff. Right, that they had a head start on the grief. They had a head start on the confusion. They have been sitting with their anger, whereas the person who is getting the news, and often this is not a negotiation. So I am being delivered bad news, life changing news, future changing news. I want people to just be in the reality of that. Again, aiming for clear and kind as much as we can in our communication, but just be in the feelings of it. So grieve. Weep. Turn to your people. If you're angry, be angry. I think people feel like they're not supposed to be angry, especially talking to it. Be angry. What boundaries were crossed? What needs are unmet? What self-advocacy does that make you want to do other than punching somebody in the throat? Creating a finstead and tagging them a bunch of places. Right, they're like, what can you do to honor the reality of the wound? Yeah. Because most breakups are really painful. Yeah. Can I just like rattle off all the things I've done and you can tell me what you think about it? They're like being drive by therapy. Yeah. So much therapy. So much crying at therapy in the fetal, just like letting it all out. Yeah. And my favorite one. Vending to friends, although I'll ask you how long we're allowed to do that because girl. Exercise and diet, working out a lot, eating well, sometimes eating terribly, sometimes. Vices, love, I drink more when I'm going through a break up. I smoke a lot of weed, trying to be sedated. Okay. Trying to live as full a life as possible. Bungie jumping, trapeze stuff. Things that make me feel adrenaline and happy. And then like spiritually find myself. Read a lot of roomy. A lot of sufficism. Yeah. A lot of Buddhism. Getting deep. Yeah. Any approval of any of these things. I think all are great and fine. Right? That what I'm most reacting to in this moment is wow, you've developed a really rich toolkit for yourself. She's been in the game for a little while before she got married. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And so I love that for you. Right? So I think that's a huge of places that you can go. For me, I'm most concerned with if we only have one thing to do. Because if that thing is not offering you the support that you need it to in the moment. Or I mean, heartbreak is deeply painful and recovery is slow. Right? So we're probably going to need more than one thing. If your therapist isn't available and all you've got is therapy, what happens in the time between if we can't be cultivating other stuff. And I'm a real person who lives in the world. So I'm not like anti use of substances or anti numbing or anti dissociation. But what tools do we have and how are we using them and are we clear for what? Yeah. Do we have our own internal sense of, okay, when am I using this on purpose in this moment versus this is all I've got and can do. And so this is all I'm doing. Let's just know the difference between like, am I just like numbing? Am I creating a new kind of problem by avoiding going through the process of grief by doing all of this other stuff versus, okay, I'm in a larger process. And there's a goal. Yeah. But I do want us to remember in all of that and it showed up a lot in your list. Healing is relational. Healing is a relationship. That wasn't me saying go get another relationship. That wasn't on my list. That wasn't me saying, but it comes up a lot. It comes up a lot. Write the idea of well, the best way to get over someone is to get under someone. Under someone. So I didn't say that. See that's like bar fee for me. I need a lot of time after a breakup. Like at least a little bit of time. Well, I want to talk about timeline too. So you were telling me, what is Charlotte? She's like, you need to grieve for half the time you were in the relationships. So she was with big for years. So she needs to be sad for six months. I was like, LOL. And then I saw on mine too, like something called the three, three, three timeline. Tell me the thing. So they were saying three days of intense grieving, three weeks of self-focus reflection and three months of intentional rebuilding or personal growth. Before the answer, don't you love how humans need a time job? We love a pissy like three, three, three. What do you think about timelines? I mean, in some ways, it doesn't matter what I think because your grief doesn't care. Right. Grief does not care about your timeline. We want a timeline because we don't want to be uncomfortable. Right. That grieving sucks. It sucks. It sucks to be in pain. It sucks to be heartbroken. And again, with some of like the neuroscience around this, some of the nerdy stuff that when we talk about heartbreak, that that is a literal experience. Know your heart hasn't torn itself open. But literally when we scan the brains of people who have gone through a breakup, it is like they are experiencing intense physical agony. So this isn't light stuff. And not every ending is going to hit us that way. But grief is a spiritual experience. It's an emotional experience. It is a physical experience. Right. And so if you were to have a deep cut, if I tell you that you're going to be fine in three weeks, that brings us a lot of comfort. It allows us to do the things that we want to do. We're not in crisis worrying about the thing. But if it takes four weeks, you're probably not panicked. And you probably will still have a scar. And you might still be tender in that spot. And you're probably going to remember what happened to you. And I think that when it comes to breakups, people want to know how long it's going to take. But then they want it to be as if it never happened. No marks, no bruise, no scar, no change of life, right? No memory of the pain. And that's just not the cards that we are dealt. So grief is going to take as long as it takes the best timeline that I have to offer people when I'm working with them is that your grief is going to be proportional to how much you loved. Yeah. Right. And so if you had plans for a future and you have memories of the past, you're going to grieve it. This is again, so controversial. Should we become friends with some of our exes? Can we do that? I've heard people say that if you want to be friends with your ex, you're probably still in love with them. Is any of that true? Can be. So I'm not going to say you should be. I'm not going to like mandate like, oh, you chose them for a romantic partnership. And now you're stuck with them forever. Invite them to. My exes are terrible. Yeah. And that is how a lot of people feel. So it would be really unfortunate for you to have them at every birthday party for the rest of your life. Yeah. Nightmare. Or, you know, for however long you were in a relationship, you have to spend at least that half of that, you know, it friends with them. Right. Like, no, I'm not going to assign a friendship. And for a lot of people, they get into relationships with people that I like you. Yeah. I like you as a person. For some people, their relationships actually end because they're like, oh, this would be a better friendship than a romantic partnership. Because we were saying earlier that there's this pedestal around romance. When sometimes we actually just want other kinds of connection, sometimes this is a good intellectual stimulation. Maybe I just enjoy you. Maybe I like looking at you. Maybe I like touching you. Not all of that has to be like a romantic long term escalator type of deal. So if you are partnered with someone that you're like, oh, we genuinely would be good friends, there is room for that. And actually queer community does a really great job of modeling. Some of that, it doesn't mean it can't get messy, but relationships are messy. And because there aren't any other models, they're making them in real time. What I will also say though is that sometimes we are pursuing a friendship to try and avoid grieving the end of a relationship. I've done that. Right. I think most people have done that. So painful to think about this person disappearing forever. And we don't want that. And it doesn't necessarily have to be disappear forever. But it really might be that we don't actually have a place in each other's lives anymore other than I think of you fondly. And sometimes that actually needs to be enough. Sometimes that is the most honest way to move forward. And again, sometimes that is also the most kind and clear. Like if we don't imagine that we could do this in a way that allows us to keep clarity and integrity with ourselves. Right. So if being friends with you is going to make me unable to move forward in connecting to other people. And that doesn't mean you're not going to have feelings if I either view enter a new thing. That's just the reality of life. If I have a sense that I am hoping that something could happen one day later on, that isn't a true friend. You have to think about what are my friendships about? And does this relationship meet that criteria? And then what sort of disentangling or separating do we need to do to make that possible in the future? Right. It doesn't have to be right now. Yeah. Urgency around, oh, we broke up and now we're friends. That just might be worth looking into it. And I think that can be unfair. If you're the one breaking up and then you're going to be friends with the other person and the other person didn't want to break up. Like, I was reading online too. Again, this is like an arbitrary timeline. But they were saying you should really have three months or they said, give it a season between your breakup and when you try to be friends again so that everybody is clear. You have time to reflect. You're not just jumping in because you're hoping that maybe you're going to get back together. I kind of thought that was smart. Give it a couple of months and just then if you want to try it again, you've had a breath to see is this what I really want. The thing that I like about the, it was called the 333. 333. Yeah. Right, that they had, okay, what am I going to do in the immediate aftermath? Mm-hmm. And it sounded like it was a lot about like, be in the mess of it. Yes, just great. Just grieve, love that. And then it sounded like the next chunk was about like reconnecting to community, right? Being with people who know you, who see you, who validate you and they don't have to be like, oh, you're so great, you're so wonderful. But the people that your life is also filled with, being in right relationship to them. And then it sounded like that latter part was also making sure that you are experiencing the fullness of the world. Yes. And the things that you're saying, jumping out of a play, you know, I feel like feeling alive and feeling alive, remembering that you are still alive, you didn't die. Right, it hurts and you didn't die. And so when we think about like these seasons, I would love for people to allow themselves that first chunk of just being in the feeling without trying to complicate it by trying to build something new with someone that you are ending something with. And that doesn't necessarily have to be the same as no contact. I want to make room for just there's just so much diversity of relationship. Absolutely. But allowing yourself, honestly, the container that you need to like be in the mess of the aftermath. You know, being in the mess, I remember during my most hurtful breakup, I got very comfortable in the mess because people are so lovely and kind to you when you're going through a breakup. Like truly like my parents are so like non-judgmental and want to like cook me food and love on me. And my girlfriends are like, okay, another weekend at the club, let's go. Like it is shocking to see how your community will show up for you when you're in the mess. And I just want to put that out there like don't be afraid to be vulnerable and start crying and be like, I'm in pain. Can you hold me? Like someone will hold you. Hopefully. I mean, you also have a great community. I do. I do build the community. Love on your friends when they're going through a breakup. They'll love on you. It's mad. Speaking of loving on your friends, how do you feel about breakup sucks? I know that was kind of like, I just like, we're just going there. Yeah, going to the club. Yeah. It seems like a bad idea. That's me. I know most people it tends to be. We have a culture around sex where people use it in actually very disembodied ways. Yes. Right. Like the average person is having sex for all sorts of nuanced and layered ways that they're often not really aware of. So we're doing all of this exchange of something and we're not even really thinking about it. Because ideally it's fun and at best it feels really nice. And it can complicate an ending if we're not really clear on what it is that we're bringing here and hoping to get out of it. And so in the same way that we have this really loving dinner and then I leave you on the street, like what happens at the end of this intimate experience that is probably really nostalgic and maybe really heartfelt. And again, I really hope it feels nice because if it's not pleasurable, I don't get what we're doing here. Yeah. Right. But we're usually working something out. And so for that same frame of a good goodbye, that can be a good goodbye if we're really clear with ourselves and with each other about what would make this a good goodbye for us. And how do we take care of ourselves and maybe extend some care to each other on the other end? Because what often happens is that we are playing out some kind of dynamic in our relationship through our sex life. And because we don't really talk about sex, not in like transparent and honest ways, now we have other stuff to be working on. On top of the stuff we were already working on as we close. Right. That makes sense. And then the opposite of break up sex, should we be blocking this person on social media? Yeah. That would be the binary. Yeah, it's like sex more blocked. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, whatever, again, whatever allows you to have that period of just like being in the reality of your feelings. Real space is real space and not. Yeah. And so to use the ghosting example again, so imagine if someone is no longer in your orbit, you know they're gone, but then you see them like walking by your window. Right. And it's like not a mirage. Like literally is them like popping up. And we know the sorts of things we are likely to post. Yeah. Right. We're posting our glow up body because I've been living in the gym working out all of my cortisol by chasing dopamine. I've been bothered with my girlfriend. I'm like, I'm living a full life without you. Right. Or I'm just putting the best moments of my life because we don't put the crap on our socials. Absolutely. I'm part of the MSN generation. So I'm like, I'm like subbing you, you know, in the song, the array. Yes. Absolutely. That it's all this stuff. And I'm actually not supposed to be a part of this process. Right. Right. And I'm actually not supposed to be a part of that. Yeah. And so a lot of people will, it doesn't have to be a block. Right. It might be a mute, but it could be a block. It could be a restrict. It could be an unfollow. Be aware of your habits. I think you're saying also right. And notice if you find yourself checking. Yes. I call it emotional cutting. I cannot. I got a block because I just end to. So I think block and mute are two of the best tools we have in 2026. Not just for breakups, just in general. They're useful for filtering because we lose control of the things we're paying attention to. We are we are pushed content all the time. Yeah. The way that I tend to think about it is if you're trying to like detox something, the least helpful thing that you can do is like do a little, you know, so like I'm getting sober, but like every now and then I'm just going to have it like a little sniff. That's not. That's not actually going to help your process, even though it feels really rewarding in the moment. Just in the moment. In the moment. In the moment. But we don't tend to feel proud about it. Right. And it doesn't serve the larger goals. And there is a way in which if you are tracking the same way that you would if you were trying to get sober is that it does. So feel like a own. Now my counter is down to zero again. And I'm back on day one. And that's its own devastating process. And it doesn't mean any time you see them online or anytime you check anything, but just notice if this becomes a pattern because the relationships that we are in, especially like intense ones, ideally lovingly intense, but intensity comes in all forms. Our brain doesn't make a difference between that and other kinds of addictions. Right. So we end up literally dopamine seeking in our relationships. And so when our relationships are going well and they're healthy, right, I get that little boost by looking you in the eye or you smile at me or we have a good deep hug and it releases all the good chemicals and bye, maybe see you later. Right. But in a breakup, we still want connection. We are wired first for survival and then for connection. So we are chasing that often. And some of these other ways that we can try and get those needs met don't actually help us very much. And don't allow us to really connect well to other people either. Yeah. I can do that. Block, block, block, block, block, block. Pause. Look away. Fill your schedule. Don't even be tempted by it. Yeah. I will. I get tempted. So it's a real temptation. The temptation isn't the problem. It's just being able to notice what it is that we're seeking and is there. Is there an alternative? Right. I need a hug. There are lots of there are lots of people who would be willing likely to give you a hug if you let them know. Right. I wish that for people. Let me at least say that. That I wish that for folks that they can continue to cultivate a richness in their lives that the devastation of a breakup doesn't mean that they are alone and isolated in the world. Right. And you said something interesting that I love that brings up another question. You said that queer people, you've seen a lot of queer people model this kind of healthy relationship to friendship thing. How do our cultural and our sexual orientation and our gender identity affect how we behave, grieve in breakups? And I can say that I've witnessed straight men withhold some grief versus where women are more socially conditioned to be like, what the heck? Like me? Just like out in these streets crying. Yeah, it's straight men also might not have community in the same way that other folks do. Don't only know something that we've talked about on the show. It's on especially for straight guys. So that's a great question. Yeah. Well, I'll start where you start and we think about queer communities. A lot of why they're are really great models within community is because queerness is about sort of defying some of the social scripts, particularly the binaries that don't fit. So you can, there is room to choose more. And so we're seeing people choosing things that expand all of our imaginations collectively and invite us to think about, oh, does that, does that align for me? Does that work for me? Is that something that I might want? Would I want to try that? Bell Hook says this amazing quote. It's like to be queer, to be at opposition with everything in the world. And that's like so beautiful. And right, that there's so much permission and room that you, I mean, it's a lot of you giving yourself permission and finding community that will also affirm that. And so what it also reflects back or some of the social scripts that we are all given, regardless of what your gender is, regardless of what your specific culture is. But we do have a lot of norms around centering romantic partnership. We do have a lot of norms, at least in sort of the Western world about like public life versus private life. So there is a very individualistic culture that we are raised in on the side of the world. So the problems are my problems. Right. That's not true everywhere. A breakup impacts your entire network. Think about your friends thing, your family. Right. These are relational changes that ripple across our network. But then we look at things like gender, right, that, yeah, women in general are socialized more around feelings and around intimate connection. And so even if not all women are choosing to bring that to the relationships, they have more permission to be in that space. People will receive them differently. Women on average actually use more feeling words, emotion words than men. And I think it was like two thirds more. Right. So that's significant. Men are not generally socialized to have access to spaces where they can talk about feelings and even to their own internal worlds. In a way that I think we should all feel really saddened by. I think we look at, it's easy to look at. Men and see the problems that exist without noticing how the relationships that we have to people influence the kind of tools and skills and people that they can become. So for me, if we say, oh, men aren't good at feelings, well, then we actually need a culture that supports men being able to be in touch with their feelings and having places to express their feelings and not only act them out, but to just share them. Right. Because we show up on this planet with as much access to those feelings as women do or non-binary people do. Like it's not like we're built that way. We're just taught that from the earliest moments. And so we see that in relationships of all kinds, but especially in romantic relationships where we've now decided that your romantic partner is supposed to fulfill like every need that you have. And so we're seeing all of these places where people are incredibly critical of their partners for not being able to show up for them in particular ways. And while I'm not saying it's any partner's responsibility to like reparent their partners and I'm not saying parents like you're all failing. It's a whole culture. But for us to notice where we are experiencing gaps for ourselves, right, taking the feedback that we receive from other people. And then using that as an opportunity to say, okay, so then what didn't I learn or what haven't I gotten to practice that I would like to now, right? As an adult, we are responsible for ourselves. And so what kind of person do I want to become on the other side of this? Because it's not only men who struggle, right, that we're also seeing that particularly women of color don't get a lot of space, right, the superwoman cliche, right? So they don't always get a lot of space to talk things out. And I think because we are experiencing this larger cultural shift where we have all these, I've been talking about it in terms of like atrophies of our social muscles. And actually Esther Peral talks about that really well. That people aren't sharing authentically and vulnerably in general. The amount of people who do not have a person to turn to in crisis, we should all be a little concerned about that, not just for when the breakup happens, but yes, when the breakup happens. I think the last question is, if you're having second thoughts about having broken up with someone or you're thinking about, I want to get back together with them. What should we be thinking about? I mean, that happened with you. Yeah, I mean, I want to ask you, we think about backlighting. I went through a terrible breakup with my current husband. We did a lot of growing, got back together, behaved differently, did therapy, you know, and my whole husband, I really, like I talked about stupison before, like I feel me and him have met in another life. And that's my dude. And I, you know, we broke up because we weren't being right to each other. Like, what do you think about backlighting at any point? Some of the ways that I think about it and everyone there is a story in a way that is honest to them, but some, here are the things that I heard, right? We ended things, right, because we weren't being the kind of people to each other that we wanted to be or that either of us deserve to receive. We had time apart. We did a lot of growing, right? We reconnected and built something different, right? And here we are putting that into practice in an ongoing way. I think that's lovely. That's not what all of us are going to have. That's not what all of us want. When I think about something like backlighting or even the idea of going back, I mean, the relationship is that version of the relationship is done or I'll say that time is done, that time is done. So if we're trying to reconnect with an old thing, we can't time travel in that way. So all we have is what we're doing now. And if we haven't taken the time to work on the things that weren't working, right, and our individual contributions to that, I always pose the question to folks around what do you anticipate to be different moving forward? People tend to have an answer for that. And I say, what have you done already that's going to make that possible? What have they done, right? And what are you committed to moving forward that you weren't already committed to before? Yeah. Being able to reflect honestly, can let us know whether or not I am reacting to, I miss you. And so I want to re-experience the good parts because there are almost always good parts or else we wouldn't have been there. Yeah. Right. I want to honor that, you know, we are not all, you know, just here for the suffering. Yeah. That relationships are layered and nuanced and complicated. And so even as you end, there were still things worth holding onto or else you would have left before. So sometimes we just want some of that old stuff back versus, oh, there is something here that we are both better equipped to work on now. The tools. Yeah. I love therapy. It sounds like therapy loves you back. It sounds like you've done a lot. I love it so much. It saved me. Yeah. I love this episode. Thank you for being here. That was so great. Beautiful. I tear it up many times. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, it's like I'm in therapy works. Amazing deals on package holidays. Pay now. I've got tickets to that sold out show. Message now. Your subscriptions been suspended. Update your payment details. Final warning. To receive your package, pay the fee immediately. Mom, I've had an accident. Please send money. There's been suspicious activity on your bank account. And I need a few personal details. Fraud is getting more sophisticated. Always stop, think and check. Stay ahead of scams at gov.uk slash stop think fraud. Redeem your laptops on free bet spins or even cash in for real money. That's Latisfaction from Labbrooks. And for extra Latisfaction, here's the season sees. Let's rock. Hello, I'm Joanna Page. Did you know that national lottery players raise over 32 million a week for good causes? Because of you, amazing projects across the UK are supported every single day. Well, as a thank you, players can enjoy free entry and special deals at hundreds of iconic venues and hidden gems during National Lottery Open Week, which runs from the 7th to the 15th of March. All you need is a national lottery ticket. Visit national lottery openweek.com and unlock something new this spring. Tee's and sees apply. Okay, it's time for better and five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode. Number one, aim for a good goodbye that is clear and kind. Taking the high road is a gift to yourself. It absolutely is. Number two, if you're the one doing the breaking up, consider doing it at your soon to be exes place because they're going to be more comfortable in the aftermath. Yeah, great. Number three, surprise, surprise, ghosting is never the move. It's really not. Even though it feels better in the moment. Yeah, don't do it. Number four, there isn't a set timeline but Shadin likes the idea of giving yourself some time to grieve right after it happened and then working on living your best life. That's right. And number five, consider smashing that block button. Because seeing your ex live their best life online can be kind of hurtful sometimes. You don't want to do it. Okay, Noah. That was an emotional talk and I really appreciated it. Do you feel like you will be doing breakups better? So I hope I don't break up again. Especially if Benji's listening to this. I don't have any plans. You're safe for now. No. Keep cleaning up the dishes. I ride with Benji. But I just love this episode because I think so much of what we learned was like you just want to do right by people and by yourself. Yeah. And the sloppier you are sort of like the less you're taking other people's feelings into consideration, the harder it's going to be, not just for them, but for you too. I love that whole talk about how like the way that you show up is like the way that you are in the world. Yeah. And so if you're ghosting people or if you're being mean to people or if you're doing all these other things, it's going to bleed into your life in other places, your friends, your family, work. So like this is a great sort of like discrete point in your life. Or if you can do this well, hopefully that will transfer to other places as well. What about you? What did you learn? I mean, listen, same as you, I just took away a lot of life skills and conflict resolution skills. It also made me feel seen and kind of called out for behaviors I've participated in in past. And isn't it all about kind of like growing and wanting to be like she said, the person you want to be? Yep. I felt like I got to be honest in my conversation. Yeah, you take the good parts of the old Raj and bring them forward. Yes. And you leave the old parts in the past. That's right. And like hopefully there's some transforming that happens. That's the most we can answer for. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better. I'll never break up with you guys. Am I doing it wrong? Am I doing it wrong? Is a co-production between Half-Post and ACAP? Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca, Carrio, and Malia Aguadello. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Redder. Special thanks to Half-Post's head of audience Abbey Williams. Head of video Will Tuck. As well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez, and Terry DeAngelo. And we're your hosts, Raj from Jabi Johnson. And Noah Michelson. 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Terms at Saints Breeze.co.uk, slash Aldi price match, and nectar.com slash prices terms. Need a complete solution to skills challenges? BPP have got you covered. 50 apprenticeships, 16 subject areas, levels 2 to 7. Trusted by 10,000 employers and 13,000 apprentices. Get the right skills in the right roles where you need them. Offering expert levy guidance and a free apprentice recruitment service. Training that develops workforce capability. And then some apprenticeships. Built for performance. Search BPP apprenticeships. Harry Styles is back with his brand new album. Kiss all the time. Disco occasionally. Featuring the number one single, Aperture. Out now.