Gail Simmons on Why Top Chef Wins, Cooking Competition Shows and What Judges Really Think!!

This week on the chef's cut, we are joined by the one and only Gail Simmons, legendary food writer and host of Bravo's Top Chef. Today we're talking about what has kept Top Chef the reigning champ of food TV after all this time. I think that even our contestants think there's this like master plan that we've orchestrated everything and we really haven't. A little bit about Padma's new show. By coincidence or not, we'll never know. It premiered the same week that we did. And a walk in confession that almost derailed filming this season. My face was black and blue for like the better half of two weeks. Joe and I want to take a minute to say thank you to everybody in our chef's cut nation. We never imagined that we would have reached number one for US food pods so soon and that is only because of your support. The number one thing that you can do to continue to help and support is put in those rates and reviews wherever you're getting your podcast. Thank you guys. Gail, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have you here. I'm thrilled to be with the two of you. This is like prime quality time for me that I never get. So thanks for inviting me. Gail, I wanted to know because this is something that a lot of people wonder about because Top Chef is this massive juggernaut. It is an institution. It's the number one cooking show. When you joined, because you've been with Top Chef since season one, when you joined, did you realize that it was going to become such an institution? No, just like anything that we all do, you know, you throw shit against the wall. And I wasn't even meaning to throw anything at the walls. To be honest, I was doing it for my boss because she told me to. Right? So when I was doing it, food and wine magazine, in a totally different job, I loved my job. I was set. I was on a path and they totally blindsided me telling me to go do this for food and wine, like representing the magazine. And the premise was you go for three weeks to San Francisco, you shoot this like silly little thing and then you come back to your life and like life continues. And not only did I not believe that it would be a success, but I was scared out of my pants about doing it in the first place. When we sat down, episode one, season one, I sat beside Tom Clicchio, introduced myself to him, not because we hadn't met before, but of course he was just like, sorry, who are you? And we had to reintroduce myself. I was actually very close friends with his assistant at the time, but I had met him several times as like the god of food that he is. And we sat down together and my first question to him was like, so why are you doing this? I know why I'm doing this because I was told to do this by my bosses at food and wine. And truthfully, like I have nothing to lose because no one knows who I am. Anyway, worst case scenario, I make a big fool of myself because this show flops and I just go back to running the food and wine classic in Aspen, which by the way was the best job ever. And Tom told me how he had, you know, turned down the show many, many times and finally they convinced him to do it on a bunch of contingencies that he could be an executive producer that he would have a say in making sure that it was about real cooking and chefs who were really aspiring to be at the top of the industry. He was like, you know, I'm doing it because he was doing so well in New York, but he was like, you know, my buddies, we go to these food festivals and my buddies like Bobby and other people have lines around the block and no one outside of New York knows who I am. And I need to run my business and I need, it's a promotional tool for me, right? And if this fails, we're all going to be screwed and we weren't worried about it failing. We just figured no one was going to watch it. What we were really worried about was our industry, right? And that fellow chefs, colleagues, journalists would make fun of us, would criticize us and would hate it. And here we are, 23 seasons later. I mean, it's really like redefined television, not just scripted, non-scripted cooking, not just scripted cooking. It really was like a category redefining show in the television space in general, like food. I think so. No, I think so. You know, there's been a number of moments. With no doubt. Yeah, making this show. It's hard to have perspective, you know, in ways, even though you guys have been in the depths of it, you now have a bigger perspective because you've now done other shows. I mean, I've made lots of other shows, but not in this genre, right? Like I don't make other cooking and competition shows, and I probably never will, although you never say never, right? But you know, it's hard to have so much perspective when you're so sort of like in the trenches of it all the time. And I, but I do think there have been moments over, obviously, many moments, defining moments over the last 20 years where we've kind of stepped back and said, like, wow, we never knew this would happen. We just kind of plodded ahead and listened to our audience and listened to our producers and listened to our chefs, our contestants and our, you know, guest judges and shifted and evolved. And I think what the show has really done best, it has been making changes over the years, not being stuck in what we think the show is supposed to be, but adapting it to what we think the show can be and who the show needs to honor. And we're so incredibly proud. You two are like the poster children. But that, I think, is the biggest thing that has defined our show is just the extraordinary talent pool that we saw, that we casted and that came out the other side. Now like the economic impact of the show on our industry, the number of restaurants that have opened and books that have been written and shows that have been made and products that have come out, podcasts that have been aired, you know, this all contributes to making the world a better place. It does. It gives chefs a platform. It gives us a space. It gives visibility. It's helped people keep restaurants open. It's helped people start new businesses. Like it does so much. And that's the point, right? Like that is the, at its very base, like with the point of top chef, right, is to discover talent and give a platform to chefs who otherwise wouldn't get the exposure to take that next step on the precipice of their careers, right? Like we caught the two of you, let's say as examples, at a moment where you were like on the brink of whatever it was that will make you like a chef with capital C. I mean, not that you weren't before, but you were writing someone else's kitchen before, right? No, I was. But I was. I was my definition as chef with a lowercase c walking into that. The thing about top chef is like, I feel like it was the first show where it wasn't just, you know, there was the iron chefs in that of the world, but it wasn't like, you know, top chef was the first one where it was like, you got to know the chefs. You know, I try to imagine in my mind, the first person pitching it, they're like, what is it? It's like, you're like, iron chef meets real world. Right. We're going to put them all in a house together. And like, you know, and it's like, I think again, it's all those things in restaurants and most businesses, right? We're like, in retrospect, you're like, yeah, this is the greatest idea ever, but it's a wild one to pitch. Right. We're going to throw a bunch of shots. Who in that conference room made the call? I mean, I do know who made the call. Her name's Lauren Zalaznik and I worship her. She was the president of Bravo at the time, but really what the pitch was, which I think a lot of people know, but maybe not wasn't iron chef meets real world. It was project runway for food because they had just finished making the first season of project runway and they knew they were on to something, but project runway at the time when it was, you know, it's first several seasons on Bravo, it wasn't owned by Bravo. And so they made it and bought it, bought the format, but they didn't have complete control of it. And they were like, okay, this is an amazing format we've, we have landed on. Let's figure it out for like the other pillars of what Bravo does best. And it was actually because of the queer eyes, the original queer eye for the straight guy had those, the fives, the fab five, right? The fashion guy, the food guy, the interior design guy, the hair guy and the culture guy. And those became like the original five pillars of Bravo when it shifted from being like an arts network to a pop culture network. And so they did project runway and that was the fashion. And they said, okay, let's spin it off and make the same thing, this format, but for food. What is something about the judging process that would surprise viewers like something that people watching the show from the beginning, from this past season, something that they don't realize about the judging process. I mean, a number of things that I'm curious if I say these things, if you will know these things, that most of it you will. I think people don't know how long the judging process takes. We have shortened it considerably over the years. I mean, there were years even before you two were on that, that the judging table alone took seven, eight hours, hours. Now it's about three to four hours, you know, sometimes more during the finale, but, you know, it often takes much more than that, but it takes much longer also, most importantly, because we have really long conversations. What you see on the edited version on the episode is like eight to 10 minutes of judges table, maybe, right? And then we really do have a real debate. And we often don't even necessarily all agree at the beginning, but the reason it also takes a really long time is because during that debate, when we are just deliberating and figuring out who wins and who goes home, we all at the end have to agree with each other. It has to be unanimous. And if there is still one person who's an outlier, you know, yes, there's like a majority rules. Tom as head judge can have the veto power if it's needed, but I can probably count on one hand of the hundreds of challenges when that's actually had to happen because we can't come to a decision. Wow. But we have to be all okay before they, you know, pick up and eliminate anyone. So what has the most bearing on the perspective that you guys have in those deliberations? Is it kind of what the chefs say when you ask them about their decisions and they kind of tell you what they envisioned and what they tried to execute? Or is it the perspective of the other judges? Oh, I think it's everything, right? I think it's seeing it from the chef's perspective, understanding their intention because sometimes that does get lost. Although often I eat a dish and I'm pretty certain I understand it. There are rare times when I'll say, did you really intend for that piece of beef to be that level of doneness under or over what I would have expected? And they'll say, yes. And I'll be like, that's weird, but okay, you say so, we have to respect it. And then also the perspective of other people. And that is why having a judge's panel is so important, right? This is not a dictatorship. There is a reason there's four of us, sometimes five of us at that table. There's so many times when the guest judge or Kristen or Tom will make an argument that I hadn't thought of, right? You go into, you know, to say the food isn't subjective and can be judged on like a chart with like a check mark. So it has to be a discussion and we want to make it as fair as possible. Yeah. I thought that that blew me away the first time I got to judge with like how robust that conversation was. And it made me feel good. It's like somebody who came through the show. I was like, oh, wow. Yes. I mean, like they're really thinking about this. They're really going back and forth. It's not just like, yeah, that was all right. Like what do you think? Like it's okay. It was like, it was like long debates. And like, I remember like, you know, the first time, the first time I did it, I was so nervous. And that was like the great thing, like great, you know, working with you. It's like you're so, you're so natural at making people feel comfortable in any way, shape, or form, whether it's like meeting you in person. But also I think like for us, for us chefs, you know, make me and like Kristen and talked about this is like, this isn't what we set out to do. And I know it wasn't what you set out to do either, but like you've been doing it so long and it seems you make it seem so effortless. But all your questions, even as a competitor, your questions felt like you were trying to get an understanding. They didn't feel like combative and mean and like, gotcha. It felt like, hey, what was the intent behind this? Tell me about your thought process. Tell me about your dish. I definitely felt like a safe space, like a little more comfortable. Whereas Tom and Padma, I was a little bit like, oh, they were walking, they were walking you into bear traps left and right. And that was the biggest thing. It's like sitting on the judge's side, watching them do it to somebody and like watching someone walk into that trap. You're like, bro, don't, don't say it. Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. And then every time, every time, like, oh, did you mean to do it like that? And they're like, well, actually, yeah, I was thinking and I was like, oh, yeah. That's always the question. Like, did you mean to means you really messed up? Right. Well, there's two things about judging that I always say. One, I'm all bark and no bite. But the other thing is that as much as we do spend a lot of time and take it very seriously and want to make sure, thanks to Uncle Tom for, you know, keeping us on track with this, that like we do want to have a real conversation about food. We want to honor our chefs. We want to be constructive in our criticism. We're not trying to tear people down. It's not about us and grandstanding. It's really about making you better, figuring out the answer and giving, you know, pushing you forward. But I do feel like we just really want to help and make the show the best it can be, explain everything to our audience and be constructive to our chefs so that they get better, not so that they feel terrible about themselves. Well, don't want to know why they walk away feeling pretty. It happens. It happens. It happens. It happens. It happens. It happens. The geographical location of Top Chef, I think is one of my favorite things about it, that it changes. It's the best part. It makes the biggest differentiation. Yeah, it makes it super interesting. And I also think like people don't realize like what a massive challenge that is for the chefs, whether it's like New Orleans where it was super hot or Charleston, or like we're cooking an altitude. It's just like there's so many variables in there that it's like, you know, it's like I can't practice cooking an altitude in Chicago. Like I'm going to go up to the top of the Sears Tower and be like, this is kind of similar. You know, like what am I supposed to do? You know, like there's nothing, there's nothing there for it. So it's like there's so many wild variables with it. But that's what I think like it makes it so exciting and fun. It's not a controlled little lab experiment. It's a lot of it. Like when you talk about Buddha, like measuring every little thing, right? And it's like that works when it works. But sometimes it's like, hey, you're on a mountain and three feet of snow, like dig a hole and figure it the fuck out. Yeah. That's what I mean. Like that's that those are the things that you could never anticipate or plan for that I think are what make Top Chef what it is. Because every season you're in a new place, new circumstances, and we spend as little time as we possibly can in the kitchen. Right. The whole point is to really do a deep dig into the place, the geography, the population, the culture, the immigration pathways, the local ingredients and what makes this little corner of the world unique. Right. And I think actually this season in Charlotte, it's really taken to a place I didn't anticipate because on the surface I was like, we're going to Charlotte. I don't know. It's like a nice lovely, it's a lovely mid-sized city. But you know, what's the culture there? Where are we going to really discover and be able to show the chefs? Is there enough? You know, that's always our question. And what we found was like, you know, so surprising because we weren't doing in the obvious place, right? It's easy to know what you're going to get when you go to LA, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, like all the big food cities. But the fact that now we've done all of that and we're moving to places that are more regional and unexpected, I think actually it makes it more interesting. Is there a dream city that you guys have not filmed in yet that you would love to do a season in? Oh my God, there's 10,000. I mean, I'm gunning for Tokyo. No one's listening to me. You know, international seasons are huge and very, very difficult and we've only been able to do really one fully international season. We often go abroad for the finale, but you know, Tokyo is my dream. We did not get to go abroad for our finale. I know you didn't. You didn't. We did move you around. I mean, I don't know. I think Tell Your Eye was super cool when we were there and then we were obviously, we went to Aspen. That timing was just because of what it was. We were ending in Aspen, which made so much sense. But yeah, America wise, like if we stick to North America, I mean, Mexico City is super top, very difficult. We almost went to Mexico City once. It was pretty set, but for safety reasons, it didn't end up happening. But Mexico City would be a real dream of mine if all things were a little bit easier. You know, there's lots of cities you haven't been to. Like we've got a lot of America to cover and this is what I think is so exciting about our show is that we don't now have to do the obvious thing just because it's like to go to the big places where everyone knows the food. What I love is that in my job, I get to go and really explore places that I never thought I'd spend a lot of time in. And that's where you find like the food of America, right? And that's where you find the hyper-regional, interesting ingredients, culture, and the people who are making those things that make that place unique. And I feel like there's good food in every corner of this country at this point. You just need to look a little harder and make it less obvious. Something that people should look for ahead in this season. It seems like a really cool place. And I love the fact that you guys are looking at low country cuisine. You know, you're really digging into the whole culture of the food of the Carolinas. And what is something that you're really excited about that's coming up this season? There's a few things actually. You know, what's interesting about the Carolinas is there's the low country and then there's the high country. There's Appalachia. The mountains and the Blue Ridge Mountains and the Appalachian mountains that have an entirely different population and entirely different ingredients and cooking styles. And that was something I really knew nothing about. I'd never really been to Charlotte except the airport. Never been to Greenville, never been to Asheville until we went here for the show. So we get to learn a lot. Obviously, barbecue is a big piece of the culture. And I knew that going in. Obviously, there's going to be a barbecue challenge somewhere down the line. But what I didn't realize is the deep nuance of Carolina barbecue. And it's not one thing, right? Yes, Carolina barbecue is very different than Texas barbecue. But Western North Carolina barbecue is very different than Eastern North Carolina barbecue, which is very different to Southern Carolina barbecue, right? The barbecue of Charleston and the coastal area is totally different than the barbecue in not just North Carolina, but the East, the West, the mix of the two. So we get to explore it all. And that I found really exciting. I also loved exploring Appalachia. We do an amazing episode with Ashley, our former contestant from Houston, who has an incredible fish fry restaurant in Asheville. One of the best meals I had in the whole time I was in North Carolina. Is that it's her restaurant, Good Hot Fish? Good Hot Fish, yeah. She was on the season that I judged. Oh, right. And I think about her food all the time because it was so good and because it felt like I learned so much about the story of that little neck of the woods through eating it. And so she is in a really interesting episode because she teaches the chefs about very unique Appalachian ingredients and we all learned a lot. Yeah, there's just so many fun moments in this show. And I think from a visual aspect, it's just such a beautiful place. And we also do a ton of outdoor adventure. We take them just outside to some pretty wild places and we force them to do some pretty great things. That's what I always say about Colorado is like, I was like, we got such a perspective that we would never got. We went places I would have never gone and just, you know, the access it gives you to a region. You know what I mean? The work the production crew does. So like also they get cameras places where you're just like, we're cooking up here. This is crazy. But it's like, you have like 100 people up here and you're like building a judge. And like 80 pound cameras on your back for eight hours. Our crew, and I know this is like boring maybe to viewers, but like our crew and our producers and the research they do for months before we actually hit the ground and start shooting. And then on site, you know, our show has grown, but you know, there's like 175 people plus that make this show happen. And every one of them is like worked so hard to do it. And many of them have been with us for like 10, 15 years or more. Yeah. That's the coolest part about going back to judge. It's like a reunion. It's like seeing people and like, you know, some of them have grown up into bigger roles and they're like, oh, hey, Joe, you're back. You know what I mean? And that's like, really. Well, Donnie, our show runner, you know, her first job out of college was as a PA on season one. She has never had another job. 20 years of her life. She started as a PA in season one. And you know, now she runs the entire thing. She has an encyclopedic memory of every episode, every chef, every challenge. She's been there. She there's only four of us who've been there the whole time, I think, and she's she's the one. And the crew makes it so special. Like there's so much that separates top chef from other cooking shows. And this is something that Joe and I were talking about recently because there is a new cooking show. Oh, I listened to your episode at this time. Also, have you watched Padma's new show? I haven't. You know, I'm happy for her and excited for her. But by coincidence or not, we'll never know. It premiered the same week that we did and we have been busy. So I have not had a chance yet to catch up on all of the shows that I want to watch, including hers. So, Gail, what is it that because there are these shows that have come up and they've tried to enter the the cooking competition show space. They can quite match what Top Chef does. What is it that keeps it so special and keeps the show on top after all these seasons? I mean, I think it's sort of threefold and it's it's just sort of figuring it out as we go. Right. We don't I think that even our contestants think there's this like master plan that we've orchestrated everything. And we really haven't in a lot of ways. So much of it is just about chemistry and letting the season go where it takes you because you cannot anticipate its reality. These challenges are real. Those locations are real. The knives and the fire and the clock, they're all real. The clock is real. The clock is the most real. I'm sorry. It's just time moves differently in the Top Chef kitchen. Right. I think though the success of the show is based on three things. One, what we've talked about our locations. I think that the show would not be the same if it was just in a studio the whole time. It means like every season looks and feels completely different. So as much as the scaffolding is the same, like there is the format of a quick fire and an elimination, that's like it. We have a lot of leeway to move within that space and curate the season to the place. I think we've always made it about the chefs. It's not about one person. You know what I mean? It's not about our casting department is incredible at finding really interesting people who aren't just great cooks, but who can talk and cook at the same time. And that is a serious skill that not every chef has. So by the way, when you do really well on the show, if you do really well on the show, like the two of you, it's not just because you're a great cook. You have to have the chops, obviously, but you also have to have a perspective. Right. You have to have a point of view. And if you don't, you'll just end up cooking like everyone else and you won't make a mark of any kind. You won't be memorable. You won't be interesting. And what we are looking for is the person who can deliver the challenge. And that comes to my third point, which is sticking to our challenge because every challenge, even if they feel ludicrous in the moment, like, I'm never cooking in the snow at altitude. Like why this is not real. This is contrived, right? But I do feel like every challenge tests your skill and all of those skills are skills you use as a chef out in the world. And I do think they make you a better cook. And I do think we've seen that by the incredible talent that comes out of the show and what they do with it. My favorite stories of chefs after the show and their success are the ones who especially were cooking a certain way when they came to us because they were chefs with like a lowercase C rate. They were the chef of a restaurant, but it wasn't their restaurant. They were cooking someone else's food. And when they left top chef, Adrian Cheetham, they all of a sudden knew kind of like who they were. And I think about you and I think about Shirley Chong and I think about Nina Compton and so many chefs who came out and had completely pivoted. I think about Gregory Gorday, right? Who came out and just like burst out with like, oh my God, now I can cook my food and I know who I am with confidence. And that skills from the other, from all my experience and my mentors and the chefs in the show have built me to this, but now I can speak to and be true to like the food that I do best. And that I think is what makes it great. Gail, what do you think about that format of cooking competition shows? Do you think that it actually gives you a really good perspective of a chef's skills or competing itself is its own specific skill set? Question mark. I think both. No, I really do believe both. I think there are some chefs sometimes and we say this often and talk with us often on the scale of great chefs, you can be a great chef and a great cook, but you have different methodology. So there are some chefs who are incredibly talented, but the way that they cook is not conducive to a competition. They aren't a chef who can cook spontaneously on the fly. Think about something, commit to it and go. They need to tinker, play, develop. So if that is your way of cooking, regardless of how incredible you might be, a show like Top Chef might not be for you. Just because you don't do well on Top Chef does not mean you're not a great chef. It just means that that day or possibly that format is not where your skills do their best or really shine. You have to be pretty fast on your feet and really able to make a decision and run with it without looking back at all every time because there's just no time in that kitchen to second guess yourself and that's where people get in trouble. That's what you have to do with anything. It's also such a derts game. You have to do that and then do it again. Then do it again with your hands tied behind your back upside down blindfolded. That's our favorite trick. 15,000 feet of altitude. I love that people study the show now. They study it. They have enough seasons. There's 23 seasons now under the belt to go back and study and see what makes it successful because some chefs, you get there and you're like, wow, you're so good at this. Whereas if you're an overthinker or you need to tinker with stuff, you're going to spin it out. Yeah, you're going to spin out. Everybody does. Everybody does. There's always a few chefs every season who do. That doesn't mean that they're not great when they're in their own kitchens doing their thing. Here's a question for you that brings up for me. It is very true and we've come to be very cognizant of it now that 23 seasons later really Buddha was who made us realize it, right? That Buddha literally grew up with the show like 20 years of watching top chef. And at the time that Buddha came to us, let's say it was 17 years of his watching top chef. So he had 18 seasons to study plus all the spin-offs and the format. And he came to us as like a, I don't even know the word, like a fan fanatic, right? He knew everything. He knew more than I did. He remembered more dishes than I did, more challenges, more contestants. Like when Buddha came on, that was like a turning point because it made us realize like the way that he studied the show like a football playbook, right? Gave him an advantage. But that's my question for you. Like, do you think that if you just study from your couch something, did you think it really does give you an advantage? Because then you step into that kitchen and you still have to perform. Like, do you think knowing the show or what you knew of the show before you came on made a difference? Joe, did you practice at all? Cause I didn't watch, I was at work for the whole pre- Oh, I know about you, Adrienne, cause I saw you in that kitchen and you're, I'd like to say that I forced them, not forced them, they were excited, but like I was when it was like, who is that? And she needs to come with me. Oh, that was, I remember when you came to the restaurant one day, I was still at Red Rooster there. I'd already left La Bernardin and you, I knew you were. You came into the restaurant and I was like, Oh my God, that's Gail Simmons. Well, I've got tables here. So like I've got to focus on service. You were very busy. You did not look me in the eye. In a good way. You didn't even do it. You didn't even do a Gail Simmons table touch. You didn't go out there. Oh, I wasn't at the table. We were shooting something. Yes. We should have. Mark has introduced us and I promptly was like, who the hell is that? I need to know more about that woman. And is she interested in Top Chef season? You know, like I was very much. There and on the very first challenge sliced my finger open, very first challenge. Nobody was looking. I like hit it, went to the back and like wrapped it up, put a glove and finger caught on. And then we're sitting at the table on the first challenge and I was right by Gail and my glove is like filling up with blood. Finger is just bleeding into the glove and my hand was like kind of shaking and Gail looked at me. She was just like covered the microphone and was like, are you okay? I was like, oh, that was so sweet. I remember that. I'm just going to keep going. Yeah, I was like, no, my machine thing in the background. Right. Meanwhile, like the whole bottom of the glove was like filled with blood. It was insane. So I knew that you didn't know much about it because we forced you into it, Marcus. And the team forced you into it. But like, Joe, like how much did you study? So not much. And I didn't realize like our season, there were people who really studied. And I think it's kind of almost like analytics and sports, right? Where they like measure everything and they're like, if you do all this, like it should work out. And it's like it should, except like if some team that makes no sense gets hot and just starts, you know, like ripping the ball. And so it's like when we got there, I remember after our first day in the kitchen, there were people who got back to the house and they were like drawing the layout of the kitchen and like planning their lines of how they were going to move through it. And like, you know, like before I went, the only person I talked to and like some of them were like, Oh, I talked to, you know, Michael Vultagio and he told me like, you know, write all your recipes down, bring a blank notebook. And then when they take your, your old recipe book away, write down as many recipes as you could think of right away. So you have them written down, but nobody told me that I didn't, I didn't think of any of that. I brought like, this is like how poorly I planned it. What I brought with me was a book of foraging wild herbs and vegetables in the Rocky Mountains. And I was like, this is going to be. This is going to be. You got this. This is going to be so. This is just amazing. I'm like, this is going to be such an advantage. Like nobody's going to see this coming when I'm working. Like not that I've ever forged anything anywhere in my life. But I was like, I'm going to have like this challenge is going to come up and I'm going to forge some wild herbs. Yeah. And like, it's going to be all the difference. And they're going to be like, oh my God, Gail Simmons is going to lose her mind. You had Carrie, who was the living embodiment of. Oh, she just walked down from the mountains to film. Yes, she did. And then she just built an oven in the snow and she was amazing. Yeah. Right. But then, you know, then night one they come and they're like, you brought cookbooks. And I was like, yeah, I thought like, you know, we'd have some downtime. They're like, you can't bring cookbooks. Did you not read the 100 page thing we sent you? And it's like, of course I did not read any of that. The only thing I knew was like, I needed a pastry recipe. So I showed up with one pastry recipe that I had memorized. And that was all I had. But I was like, you know, but like that's an example, right? Of the fact that you were just the right kind of chef for the show, right? Regardless of how much you studied, like what I would love to know, which we'll never know is if Buddha, for example, hadn't done all like written a playbook for himself and studied it so thoroughly, would he have had this? Is he that kind of chef? Or did he just do so much like prep work or people like him? Right? Like it's just interesting because I think you have to be one or the other. But if you're neither, if you, you know, I don't, I don't even know. I don't know how you prepare. And I will say that the common thought when you leave our kitchen is always like that was so much harder than it looks on TV, right? Obviously it's harder, but I think you just don't really understand. So how much can you prepare? Like even people who do write schematics of the kitchen and, and, you know, figure out every detail in theory, when you get there, like how much can you really prepare? And because I think when you get there, you really don't know what we're going to throw at you, especially because there are so many factors in place that make every season so much different because we're not a studio show. Like yes, there's a kitchen, but you're only in that kitchen, not even half the episode, right? Quick fire and prep. If that. One of the things I got to say, I watch, you know, I think it's really funny is when you go back and you watch these shows with chefs who competed on them, how like we're still all have the same reaction. Like we're still there. It's like when you're watching a judges table waiting for the shoe to drop, it's so stressful. I was in Florida when one of our episodes came out age and I was watching it with Lindsay Autry because we were doing a bed together like Lindsay Autry there. And I think Sarah Groedberg was there and they were watching the judges table. They had nothing to do with it. They weren't on that season. It was my season. And like I could hear both of them at the same time be like, Oh yeah. Like, you know, you'll never sleep soundly again. Came rushing back and I couldn't believe it. And now I find myself doing it when I watch, you know, like a season of Top Chef and it's like you're sitting there at a judges table and it's like an even sitting on the judges side. I'm like, yeah, Kristen says the same thing. Yeah. Kristen says the same thing. And I want to apologize publicly for the trauma that perhaps you endured. Um, I have so many mixed feelings there, but I do feel like I hope that it also was even no matter where you fell in the competition, that it gave you something and provided you with an experience that ultimately was positive and that felt like, uh, you know, worthwhile that you learned and grew. And like, I see how much people do, but you know, I also acknowledge that you walk away sort of a changed person for better or worse. Big time. I'm not the same person that I was when I went in. And I mean, I made a really good friend on Top Chef. So, you know, if nothing else, I mean career wise got a huge boost, but I made a really good lifelong friend. I've made many, I mean, many, many you two included. Truthfully. And that's one of the cool things because you put us in this environment where we're with people who we have so much in common with. We might look different, but Joe and I are like the same person in a lot of ways. Like we grew up in the same part of Chicago. We have a lot of the same views on things. We have a lot of the same perspectives on food and the way we approach it and care about it. And I think like that's such a cool part of the Top Chef experience and kind of oh yeah, that really sets it apart too, because you help us build this camaraderie through the judges tables. Like somebody's on the bottom and hopefully there's somebody backstage giving them a pep talk, you know, yeah. I think that that like you can't underestimate the power of the relationships that people build on Top Chef like us aside. Every season, the chefs walk away with this kind of band of. Of friends, this class that they came in with and it's like you kind of go through the war together and you come out and you're never the same, but only these people have experienced this moment with you. I hear from chefs every day contestants about how like, you know, their seasons group chat just never ends. And they and what I love is seeing you all in the world doing things together. Like obviously this, you guys have a podcast. That's a very substantial thing. But at the same time, you know, chefs who were just like going to each other's restaurants and cooking and doing pop ups together. And, you know, we went to the James Beard House last week, two weeks ago, because. Tristan, our latest winner, part of his prize is cooking at the James Beard House doing his own dinner. And we walked into the kitchen, Tom, Kristen and I for the dinner and three people from his season and a chef from this season who also used to work, also works for Marcus Amos, interests and works for Marcus Amos are all his two chefs. And like, obviously, and when we asked him how that happened, he was like, well, who else is going to do this with me? Like, these are my people now. And I can't do anything without them. I need them in my life. They're my support group. They're my safe place. And they're the people who know me the best. And I think that's like an incredible outcome, sort of an unanticipated outcome of the show. We didn't plan for that. We didn't plan for a lot of things, but we didn't plan for those deep relationships. And I think it's really powerful. I will say I went and I cooked at the James Beard House after I won and Adrian showed up for me not to help at all. But she did show up. She did show up. They use it. You know, she showed up with a case of beer and hung out at the kitchen to drink beers with us while we cook. So that was that was also helpful. I don't have my knives, but I have a pack of beer. So I think I think I have a picture of Adrian standing at the James Beard kitchen, holding a case of high life, you know, when she showed up. Well, we know we love the highlights. Right. We feel good about the highlight, Joe. But yeah, those connections, I mean, are so deep and they're so special. I remember like, you know, Balood was one of our judges and then like see it after that. And like he like recognized me and I was like, oh my God, Daniel Balood knows who I am. This is crazy. You know, like it's just it's it's such an incredible thing you all have created. You know, you say like, oh, I hope the good outweighs a bet. I mean, the good massive, massive outweighs. I think so. We wouldn't be here. Although like fun little trauma we have from it. You know what I mean? But that's, you know, the trauma is important to bond us as well. You know, and so I think you can't have one without the other. And I think it's like it's so good that it's had such stay power because it's it's really genuine and it's genuine because of, you know, because because of you. Top Chef is one of the first times that even a chef, if you've got your own restaurant, it's one thing, but it's the first time you're really representing yourself as a chef and you don't have anybody to hide behind. Like you can replicate recipes that you did at this chef's restaurant or totally here, but you have to sell it. You have to own it and you have to believe in it. So you're not necessarily able to lean on other people's food anymore. And it's hard. It is hard to say like I have a clear vision when you only have like snippets of a vision of what the food would be. What's the overall narrative you're trying to create and you're, you know, it is a hard place to build it, but it is a really exciting thing because it kind of forces you there, whether you're ready for it or not. And ultimately, you're better for it. And we're very, we can really, we can sniff it out very quickly. Like we're not trying to, but if you make it three, four challenges in and you don't have your own point of view, it becomes very obvious, right? If you're cooking someone else's food or the food of another restaurant, or you're only really relying on, you know, the same thing over and over again. That's the point of what makes our challenges and our location so important that you can't hide for that long. Everyone has to be out in the end. And I think one of the things like you nailed, Gail, is like, what makes it so special is like they're casting, they're so good at finding those people. And that has nothing to do with me or Tom or Kassim. At the right point in their career to be like, you're like right there. You're not established yet, but you're like right there. And like this is, and they get, you know what I mean? They find so many of those people, they're so good at it. And then I think, you know, you all, you know, Tom, Chris and you, like, then you give them the platform to say like, OK, you're right there. Now we're giving you the opportunity. Yeah. Mike's in your hand. Mike's in your hand. What are you going to say? You mean you can repeat something you've heard before? Do you want to like let it rip? And I think like that's why it's so special. And I think that's like, you know, a big part of that secret sauce of like that. No one else has been able to capture because it's the right people at the right time on the right platform in incredible places. And I think our viewers want everyone to succeed. Like they're so passionate about. Our chefs and their stories and who they are as people. And I think that that's really where the tension lies in our show, right? Because we don't know your story when we're eating your food, right? We don't see behind the scenes. We don't see what's going on in the house or in the kitchen. We don't know if you've had a bad day. All we get is what we eat and what we say at judges table. But what the audience gets is the complete package and they are so invested, but they can't taste the food. So it's that coming together of what we know and what they know about you that tells that story. And I think that it really is like a fascinating narrative. And I don't know. I've seen it change so many people, right? I think it's just an interesting thing to look at. And this season, our contestants are so fun and wild and also I think the end is just feels different than any other season. And I don't know. I can't explain it because I can't obviously give away too much, but it just it comes down to exactly what we're talking about. We do kind of want to talk about Gail Simmons as a food expert because you had a whole career before Top Chef and you didn't just magically appear out of truth and start being like the head judge, slash host and everything on Top Chef. What was for people who don't know some people nowadays, they just know you from Top Chef. I mean, 20 years of life and granted, it has also been a huge, obviously, piece of my career, even though what people also don't know is I only do it like 10 weeks a year. Right. Top Chef is not my entire life. I have a whole other business and work and other things, but it is certainly the loudest piece of my career and I'm very grateful for it. Again, could have never anticipated. Yeah, thank you so much for your writing. And your mom, it's OK. Yeah, my mom was a food writer. I mean, like, I don't want to bore you with all the details, but the sort of net is that I grew up in Toronto and my mother ran a cooking school out of our home very ahead of her time when other mothers were learning to use a microwave so that they could get back to work and get out of the house. My mom was going down to Chinatown in Toronto and cooking and teaching the moms in our neighborhood and dads how to cook from scratch and how to make healthy, nutritious meals and how to entertain. And she also had a food column in the Globe and Mail, which is Canada's national newspaper, and I grew up for the first 10 years of my life with her doing that. So my kitchen was always full of people and always full of food. And I spent all my time watching her cook, which made me really not want to do it for a long time, not consciously. But when I then went off to college, only in my last year of college, did I start cooking in earnest for myself and calling my mom for recipes. And I started doing restaurant reviews for my college paper. Again, not because I thought it was going to be my career at all, but I just thought it was fun and cool. And I started really enjoying cooking. And when I came home from college and told my mom, you know, I really love to write and this kind of was fun and felt sort of glamorous. And I want to be a restaurant reviewer. I want to be a food journalist. I didn't know what that even meant, truthfully. And remember, that was like the dawn of the internet because I'm 100 years old. And so there weren't blogs and there wasn't YouTube or social media. It was literally food media meant magazines and newspapers, right? And my mom's friends would be like, oh, you're just like your mother. And that's so beautiful. And I would like cry and run out of the room because who at 21 wants to be told they're just like their mother. Anyway, now I know it's the greatest thing ever. And I went to work in magazines and newspapers in Canada and realized food was really my gig and what I was most passionate about. But the truth was I knew nothing about food just because my mom could cook. Didn't mean that I had any expertise. So on some good advice, I quit working in Canada as an editorial assistant in newspaper and moved to New York, went to culinary school, learned to cook and then thought I could go just be a journalist. But my culinary school was like, no, you still don't know anything. You've like done everything once, as we all know. Coloury school is an incredible foundation, but it does not make you a chef. And they convinced me that instead of going right back to newspapers or magazines or trying to get a job in food media, that I should stick in restaurants for at least a little while and sort of earn my chops so that I could speak about it with authority and have the language understand the world of chefs. And so I did that. I was a line cook and it kicked my ass as it does. I worked in two very tough New York kitchens, like, you know, late 90s were talking. So it was a different time. I was the only woman in both kitchens, but it taught me a lot. And it also taught me that it confirmed that it was not what I wanted to do with my life, but that I learned so much and that I did love the adrenaline and the skill and the rush. From there, I went back to journalism. I worked for Vogue for the food critics for a couple of years, and then I went to work for Danielle Boulue for three years. I worked for him in marketing and PR and events and wrote books with him and opened restaurants with him and really felt like I got like an MBA from him, you know, in the world of restaurants. He is just the greatest, as we know. And from there, I went to Food and Wine magazine and it was about a year into my time at Food and Wine. I took over running the classic in Aspen and Bravo came to us and said, hey, we have this idea for a show. If you help us learn the world of chefs and food and give us part of the prize, we will let one of your editors be at the judges table representing the magazine. So they sent me on like a silly little screen test. I had no idea what I was doing and I've been doing it ever since. Yeah, I mean, I studied journalism and undergrad and then went to culinary school because my mom was like, you have to go to real college first and then still wound up in a kitchen. But there were always people who separated themselves. And as a food journalist, I fucking loved that you actually had real kitchen experience. Yeah, like so many. It was rare. Hadn't had that. So I think it's even more rare now, actually. Now you can be a influencer and not really have any experience except your own kitchen. And that's not to say that they don't do great things. It's just it's like a different mentality. No, that's a way different. Like, I mean, you've line cooked in New York in the late 90s. Like that's like legendary. You know what I mean? That's so cool. And I think that's like why, you know, it's always so, you know, your perspective is so good and it's so genuine. But it's like because it's like you legit lived it. You know what I mean? And I think that's why I have like a reverence, I think for it. Like I do really understand it. I'm like, I'm not a chef and I never claimed to me. I am not a chef, but I live among them. And so I feel like I understand the kitchen and they speak the language and I do feel comfortable in the kitchen. Although sometimes I get really nervous when I actually have to cook in the kitchen and I'm like, wait, I totally forget how to do this. The other day I had to do something with Tom and Kristen on camera for like a segment. And we were making an omelet and all of a sudden I forgot how to roll a French omelet. And I'm like, wait, what is happening? It's just Tom's like breathing down my. And I was like, oh, this is what this is what it feels like. This is what it feels like to be on top of Jeff. We both know that feeling very well. It's like, I swear, I know how to do this. Yes. And Tom's like, so what are you making? And I'm like, Jesus, you know, don't do a walkthrough right now. Mind your business, Tom. All right. Like I'm very busy. That's funny because Joe and I were actually talking about this yesterday. This is something that that we were curious about. If you were going to cook in a Top Chef challenge, what challenge would it be? Oh God, I would never because I am not a chef. Again, I'm not a chef, but there are definitely challenges that I'm like, this is fun or wish I could be there. Right. I don't know. I always want to say that I really want to always get in on the open fire, outdoor open fire challenges because they just look so great and so crazy. You know, bury a bunch of root vegetables in the in the ash. That's what I'm always looking at and being like, I want to do that stuff that gets me excited. I don't know. They're fun. You know, that's what I think you got to go out of your comfort zone. I like being in places where it's not controlled. It doesn't mean I'm going to be successful at it either. There is a special part of the show, Gail, that we like to call walk in confessions. And we know the Gail who has gotten the media training and is the representative of the voice of food. But there are things that happen behind the scenes on Top Chef. That a lot of people don't see where things might have gone sideways. And you had to pull it out of the hat, throw a Hail Mary to make something happen. So why don't we take it to the walk in, you, me and Joe, and you tell us a confession from your time on Top Chef. Oh my God, just just the three of us, right? It's a safe space. It is. It's just fun. There are so many things that go wrong when you are making reality television and you cannot anticipate. Obviously you guys know. But personally, I'm going to tell you something that I've never told anyone yet. I knew it would probably come out at some point this season, but I feel like this is the right place to get ahead of it. And that is that before like the third or fourth episode of this season. So. I don't know where we'll be when this pod airs. But it is right around now. You'll notice that I do two or three episodes with big thick glasses on. And you're going to have to let me know what you think of the look. But the reason behind it isn't just because I was trying to be fashion. It was because we had a weekend off and my kids came in and Jeremy, my husband, and we took a little weekend road trip to Asheville. And we pulled up to our hotel the day we arrived. And Jeremy went into the hotel to check us in and I was with the kids in the car taking stuff out of the car, but we had to move the car because it was parked in like the valet spot. So I walked up onto the sidewalk to look down the street to see if there's any parking spaces. And I can't even tell you exactly what happened, but I missed. It was a very high sidewalk curb. And I missed the curb, flew forward. And what was at the other side of the sidewalk was a giant boulder, like a decorative rock. And I fell face first into the rock and smashed my face in. When I say smash my face and I'm not. Exaggerating. There are before and after pictures. I, I'm, I don't know how I didn't break my nose, smash in my jaw, break my cheek, lose an eye. Like it was so bad. I, I, I landed on my face. I couldn't block it. Like never even get your hands out. Never. One hand got out. It was scraped down, but it was nothing compared to the face. And I, my kids were in the car. I started screaming. Jeremy thought it was hit by a car because he just heard me screaming. Ran outside. I took my hand off my face and my hand was covered in blood. I was like, what did I do? What did I just do? Like, are we calling the ambulance? Am I going to the hospital? I, I had to be on camera 48 hours later for the next episode. This was a 48 hour break from shooting. I called the show. I ended up being okay. Like I didn't break anything amazingly, but I had one total black eye, one partial black eye, scrapes down my face from sliding across the rock. It was horrible. And so I like, um, you know, I had to call our, our production and operations manager, producer Pat, she made a man and be like, um, Pat, I kind of hurt myself in my face. And I'm like, these are the moments you need insurance. I mean, they have insurance, obviously. And I was fine. And it miraculously healed. The doctor on set was incredible and gave me this awesome, uh, medication, topical medication, and it did heal. But I was like swollen. I mean, seriously swollen. And my face was black and blue for like the better half of two weeks. Oh yeah. So that happened. There was a thing, but you know what? Also, my makeup artist was incredible. Tara, who I've been working with for many, many years. Um, you know, I called her and I went to see her and she ordered this like prosthetic makeup, like the kind of makeup they use for, uh, like special effects makeup, cause she didn't know like, how are we going to cover this? To put you on camera and she, you know, snapped into action and we did okay. We'll see. I haven't seen the cut of those episodes yet, especially the one from that next day or two days later. It was wild. Like I can't, I'm so lucky that I didn't seriously break my face. Yeah. I mean, your face looks great today. Um, so you know, it's totally fine now. It's totally fine. Like, and, and it was totally fine. It was totally fine after like two and a half weeks. Like there was like a few little things that took a while to go away, but like, well, we'll see how it looks, but I'm going to have to come out with the truth. Cause I'm sure even though they did an incredible job and they were like, my hair that will be forward and all they, they tried their best. All the cameras understood. Super email. Now it's just all. Yes. I'm going to be like, it's like early 2000. Yeah. Like literally one of my eyes is basically shut for like five days. And, uh, we'll see how it all plays out. Holy shit. But it's the truth. And at least I got a good story for it. Yeah. Between the makeup, the editing, the wardrobe and, you know, camera angles. I'm sure if you hadn't told us, nobody would ever know this happened. Well, let's see. Cause now the people who listen to the chef's cut are going to know, but no one else is going to know. And let's see where it, where it plays out. And if people notice that something is going on, people are going to think I had like served plastic surgery or something. I don't know. It's wild. No, you're just like, I just go hard. Never had an idea. You should see the rock. Yeah. You should see the other guy, the other guy destroyer. That's, you know, oh my God, Gail, you're tough as nails. It was bad. It was bad news. Also, also that is like the most line cook mentality, like old school line cook mentality you have that have like, I just smashed my face. What about work tomorrow? I can't call. I can't call off. You know what I mean? I'm on the cooktop and working. I'm on the schedule. I'm working. You know what I mean? Like nobody's covering my shift. So like I got to, I got to show up, but it's like, that's like, that's a shit. It's the most best up way. And I don't know my best way. I know not my best day. Well, like, but like I am, there's a weird, probably not healthy part of me that's so impressed with that. Yeah. Well, avoid, avoid rocks with your face. The Kail's. That's the takeaway. Kail, thank you so, so much for joining us. There is so much we talked about and so much we couldn't even get to, but that just means you'll have to come back and join us another time. And I'd be happy to. You guys are the best. Thank you and congrats on the success of the pod. Woo. All right. That is it for this episode of the chefs cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can find full length videos of every episode. And be sure to follow us at the chefs cut pot on IG for Joe flam. I'm Adrienne Cheatham. And this has been the chefs cut life beyond the past.