1KHO 699: Safety Comes at a Cost | Alex Hutchinson, The Explorer's Gene

Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen It's never gonna beat this view Oh, it's a beautiful world And I just wanna share it with I just wanna share it with you It's a beautiful world Such a beautiful world Hey friends, thanks so much for pressing play. Today's episode is with Science journalist and New York Times best-selling author, Alex Hutchinson, whose book The Explorer's Gene Investigates Something Fundamental about Human Life Why We Seek The Unknown Even when comfort, routine, and predictability pull us the other way In his research that spans neuroscience, ecology, and stories of real-world exploration Alex breaks down the paradox that shapes our choices Do we stay with what we know? Or do we risk the unknown for the possibility of something better? His insight to play from everything from how we raise our kids To how we handle change in our own lives And while you're listening, if someone comes to mind who needs this perspective Send this episode to them, that simple act is what keeps the show growing One small favor before we jump in because it genuinely changes the future of this podcast Tap Follow on Apple Podcasts or Spotify On Spotify, it's the follow button at the top of the show page On Apple Podcasts, go to the show page and tap Follow It takes a few seconds and it's one of the strongest signals You can send that this podcast is worth showing to more people Which helps with visibility Okay, let's not wait any longer It's over through one ad Here we go Safety comes at a cost with Alex Hutchinson Spring has a way of filling up the calendar quickly Field trip sports, travel, co-op, which are all good things But they can make it challenging to keep curriculum learning consistent March is really about maintaining momentum while life gets busy That's why having a flexible organized learning tool can make such a difference in the final stretch of the homeschool year IXL is designed to fit into your routine, not complicated IXL is an award-winning online learning platform offering interactive practice in math language arts, science and social studies From pre-K through 12th grade It adapts to each child's level, keeps them motivated and gives parents clear visibility into progress What I especially appreciate this time of year is how simple and time-saving it is Everything is organized by grade and subjects so you can jump right into Exactly what your child needs Whether that's reinforcing a concept before testing Or confidently moving ahead The clear explanations and visible progress markers help kids stay encouraged As they work toward year end goals Make an impact on your child's learning Get IXL now And when thousand hours outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership We may sign up today at IXL.com slash 1000 hours Visit IXL.com slash 1000 hours To get the most effective learning program out there at the best price Welcome to the 1000 hours outside Podcast my name is Ginny Urgent, the founder of 1000 hours outside And New York Times best telling off there Alex Hutchinson is here Welcome Alex Thanks so much Ginny, it's awesome to be here I love your books I love books that are written by journalists I just think they're the best books You're like how is this person like The in-depth writing that combines like your own story with other people's story Plus the current information And then also it's just woven so well together I have learned over the years I'm like any book that is written by a journalist I want to read So you have these books the explorer's gene is the newest one This is about why do we go do these things that we do Why do we go seek out big challenges and new flavors and blank spots on the map And then you also have this book Endure Which is all about like as letticism I learned so much you know I was like reading an endure and it was like There's machines that can figure out how much how many carbohydrates are stored in your legs Ha ha ha ha Oh this is a whole world I've not been exposed to at all But I learned so much so I would love if you will give a little bit of your backstory Because you are the type of person I think that Gives people hope for their kids you had a bunch of career swerves And I think it's good to hear like you don't have to just be on one linear path You can train for the Olympics and you can get a PhD And you can be the endurance guy and then you can do a different type of book You have given yourself permission to try a bunch of different things Where does that come from? First of all thanks so much for having me Jenny and thanks for the super kind words I really appreciate it Yeah, I had a very swervy career path and it's you know as a parent now I have to remind myself it's like yeah the kids don't have to know what they want to be Like right away. It's it's okay to change and It's actually it's funny. I was having a conversation with someone recently who was asking me about It was a it was a podcast about being a dad and the interviewer asked me like what what did you get from your dad And I hadn't really thought about that very much like what did I get like what are the lessons I carried away from them And I realized after you know in the course of trying to try and answer that question it's like One of the big things in my dad's life is he was an engineer From a farm then in small town You know in rural Alberta became an engineer and when he was 28 He realized being an engineer was not what he wanted to do and he went back to university to study divinity He wanted he decided he wanted to be a minister And so he he studied that for several years finished that degree and decided that actually what he wanted to be was an ethicist you know studying Religious studies in an academic and so he did a PhD and ended up with a very fulfilling career teaching ethics at university and so Sorry, this is a meandering way of answering your question, but that you know Where did my willingness to explore come from well? It's I don't think it's a coincidence that When my older brother was 28 He left his mathematics graduate school program and realized he wanted to be a librarian or archivist and went back into Library school and when I was 28 I left my job as a physicist and went back to school to study journalism. So You know I had the advance the example of my parents and my dad in particular there of like You know what you follow one path, but if you decide at a certain point that it's not the path that you want to be on You try different path and so that's that's what I did Yeah, it's such an example. It's such an example to people and also helps you to be like you said a little more calmer with your own kids because Like they could do something for 10 years and totally change it and then change it 10 years after that But I learned in your book This is brand new the explorers. Jean why we seek big challenges new flavors in the blank spots on the map about this explore exploit dilemma I've never heard about this But it makes a ton of sense and you said once you started to learn about it You see it everywhere which I I would be the type that's the exploit I'm like I just want to leave everything the same But you talk about this explore exploit dilemma like who you're dating I mean it comes up so much but even for your own This what I'm thinking about your books. It's like you're gonna talk about the concept You're gonna give all sorts of examples and other scenarios But then you're also gonna talk about it in your own life And what you said was you could have spent the rest of your life Exploiting the fact that endure became a New York Times bestseller And immediately all these doors are opening for you. You're like getting speaking opportunities and you're the guy who Is the expert on endurance athletes and instead You chose to continue and you knew and different things so could you explain the explorer exploit dilemma the concept of that and What that means for adults for business people like I guess like you said it can show up in all sorts of different scenarios Yeah, yeah, so first of all so the explorer exploit dilemma is and that is We fail when you face a choice that and you have to decide whether to keep doing what you're doing or launching does nothing new and the classic Example that that researchers used to explain it is like you go to a restaurant that you've been to before and you have to decide Like you know last time I had the burger. It was it was pretty good. Should I get the burger again? It's it's what I always get here But do you sometimes feel the pull of like oh, I wonder if I should try this special like And you know I've done it a couple times in my life, and I'm like I should have just gotten the burger Well, that's the thing right like we because you know even so I'm a I'm a person who always likes to stick with what I know but feels the pull of like oh I wonder what maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence Maybe I should try to sell the thing and then if I order the new thing I'm like and someone else at the table orders my usual dish I'm like oh my god. I can't believe I didn't just order that you know the the thing I knew I liked so you know We're all familiar with this dilemma, but but when you zoom out it's like We face these decisions all the time and whether it's a career decision like I always face Should I spend 10 years as a physicist should I you know? I invested a lot of time and a lot of energy into this Should I keep pursuing you know this sort of sunk cost or should I try something new? And yeah, like you said, you know It can be like should I stick with this with with my current boyfriend or girlfriend who I think is pretty good or like Maybe there's someone better Exactly like You might not want to put it into words But we we all face these sorts of dilemmas and and even on a corporate or societal level It's like if you're a company or if you're an entrepreneur Do you double down on the product that has been successful for you or do you Invest your money into R&D to build the next product and it's like you might say whoa you need both are important Well, of course both are important, but you can't do everything to the foot to the maximum of your ability You have to decide how to allocate your energy and your resources and so it turns out there's a whole like field of Science of science is actually in multiple fields who and study this is even biologist study it because how does how does a bumblebee decide when this patch of flowers has given all the nectar that it's it's gonna Yealed and that it would be better to fly off across the meadow and try and find another patch of flowers It's like animals have to be making these calculations all the time So we have this like there's neuroscience there's behavioral science there's psychology and trying to figure out How do we make the best decision and the short answer? Let me just you know fast forward to the end of the book is There's no right answer you we can never guarantee that in this situation you should explore and this patient situation you should exploit But we it's a safe bet that if you're always in all parts of your life only exploiting or only exploring You know, you're not going to find the right balance of trying new things But also pursuing you know carrying you don't want to only try new things. You don't want to never pursue something to as you know To as far as you can take it. Yeah It's fascinating is a fascinating book the explorer's gene and you actually talk about there are genes I mean when you talk about the science there's a gene. It's like d4 d something You know, there's a certain gene that people have studied like That some people are going to be a little bit more bent toward I mean, we're talking about like one of the examples you're given the book is like Do I continue with my netflix show or do I change to a new netflix show And the bug you're talking about people who like went off the map They're like I'm just gonna take this river wherever it goes or I'm gonna go across this ocean And you're like my my examples like lame am I gonna stick with the hamburger or am I gonna try the fed genie alfredo But it is remarkable to really be reminded of people who have explored in these grandios ways And I would say that in your life you have done similar I mean, you're talking about and we're have a lot of parents that listen in and a lot of kids that listen in And a lot of people who are trying to get their kids outdoors And so you kick this book off It's a great opening So Alex you're like all right you're on this path You're like there's the biting flies and you're behind the schedule and you're like It's raining and where we gonna stop to sleep and like I don't know if we're gonna make the schedule And what about our food and then you turn the page and you're like and our kids who are in six You know, you're like I think not expecting that at all But this affects how we raise our children and so you've got this sort of bent toward and you had it from the beginning toward kind of like adventuring and exploring off the beaten path can you talk about How your kids respond and react and their growth through not being like there was this quote that was like 98% of people come to the National parks in vehicles and 98% stay within 400 meters or something of their car They don't actually go off the beaten path. So what has this actually been like you know, you're doing it with your wife And now you're doing it with young kids elementary squage Yeah, so Trust me. I I agonize about this a lot because you know, you know, I don't want to be written up by the Children's Aid Society for For you know, for some of my kids, but look one thing I think it's important to say is You know when I when I would tell people I was working on a book about exploring a lot of people would say oh that you know That sounds interesting Personally, I'm not much of an explorer myself and I understand I understand what they're saying what they're saying is I don't want to go like parastailing to the North Pole and and lots of people don't want to do that I don't want to do that. I don't want to die But exploring is a broader concept and it's separate from the idea of do you want to put yourself through misery or you know risk your life or or whatever so You know, we joke about exploring in the context of a restaurant or You know reading a and from the book, but these are forms of exploring These are forms of trying something new and getting off the beaten path and and their legitimate and they're important So so I think we can see exploring in a broader context now I do think getting outside into the real world is a particularly important form of exploring that you know In this modern world we have all these devices that are basically Designed to hack into our exploring circuitry. We're drawn to explore and swiping the the screen on our phone or whatever is Designed to give us that sense of who knows what well what what the next TikTok video will be I will I better explore and find out What is what you know so we there's a rise of virtual exploring Which is not to me the same as getting out into the world and the world is not an algorithm designed to please you So if you choose the wrong path the world you know, you might get lost Like there are consequences to being out in the physical worlds Which is why I think that getting outside is so important. So I haven't actually answered your question yet Which is how do my kids respond to this? It's mixed right like if my Approach was every time my kids complained all view that as a sign that we should go back home and get it go inside We would never go outside right like if every walk we went on if they're like well if they win I know I've pushed them too far a Kids complain I complain you know like so so it's it's it's a real But at the same time like I don't want to be it like and I'm not like a drill sergeant I'm not trying to you know put them through you know military training at the age of six and eight so It's always a real judgment battle battle or a judgment call of trying to figure out What's just outside their comfort zone that's gonna be exciting? So that when they finished that like that was awesome. I can't believe we did that as opposed to I can't believe dad made us do that I can't believe or dad and mom because it's not just me. It's me. It's my wife and I together making these decisions Yeah, so it's it's it's tricky, but I would overall like My kids love these adventures that we've go on and and so I we were just before we started recording We were saying it's a snow day here in Michigan and in Toronto and Snow days mean one thing for for me the and my kids is like we're gonna go down to the river and we're gonna Snow shoot because you can get into some when the snow is deep enough you can go up these slopes that are otherwise totally impossible and it's fun and They value these things, but they we also get cold fingers and you know, slip down the slope and stuff and so Yeah, it's a constant push and pull and trying to trying to listen to them and respect You know when I'm pushing them too far and understand that hey look at it at the end of the day. It's supposed to be fun I love that. I think that it comes across in the book It is inspiring. It is an inspiring read when you're reading that and then you're like oh the young kids are there Because you're interested in these places where there's no trail You know the trail hadn't already been formed for you But then you say like ideally I would love to have no GPS or ideally I would like to have it be this or that but you're always adjusting you're adjusting to whatever the circumstances are So that you're still pushing the boundaries, but also it's not too much Because you say the kids haven't signed up for this, but I love this phrase where you talked about their Expanding abilities this does expand their abilities when you take them to the Bruce Peninsula They've conued in the Algonquin Park and they've hiked in the Rockies This is expanding their abilities in a way that technology which is also hacking into our exploring circuitry I love that wording is not it's not expanding their abilities at all So this is a great read for parents because you talk about what actually is exploring So you say this question about is a hike through a national park really exploring You know, what is the difference between someone who does Mount Everest? It's a really interesting question. I've never considered Alex If someone goes at Mount Everest and they've paid $65,000 to have a guide Is that exploring? You know, can you talk about what your view of meaningful exploration is? Yeah, I think in a wrestled with us a lot you know, you're right a book at exploring You better have a definition of exploring and then I you know halfway through this process area I don't really know what I'm talking about here. I need to say really Mail down what I'm talking about and one of the themes that really emerged for me Was the difference between active and passive exploration? And so that's where this idea of like what is the difference between You know Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norge climbing Everest for the first time like you know, they're obviously exploring someone of modern You know climber going on a guided expedition or like lying on the sofa Watching a national geographic documentary about climbing Everest and so you know Because one version of exploration is like we want to learn stuff that we don't know before and it's like well Actually, you're probably going to learn a ton watching the national geographic documentary if your goal is to learn about the world You're going to probably learn more about Everest from the documentary than you would from climbing it So then I'm like but that's not so there must be something more to it There must be something more that makes meaningful exploration and so for me Yes, it's about learning about the world and learning about yourself more just as importantly learning about what you're capable of and it's about Being faced with decisions and making those explore exploit decisions with your but you know the best to the best of your ability Seeing what happens learning that that was the right decision or the wrong decision and following your own interests saying You know, I want to go up this side trail in the national park because I'm really interested what would be in that canyon over there As opposed to just going to the you know, you've got a checklist here are the eight be most beautiful things Let's check off the list that I saw those things in the national park and so this idea of being able to Follow your own interests and make your own decisions. I think is what You know the reason we're wired to explore is that it's guiding us to learn about the world and about about ourselves And the way we do that is not by passively being fed new information from an algorithm Even though there's lots of information even though artificial intelligence can tell us lots of things It's by following our our own interests So I think that's what makes to me what makes a meaningful exploration and and that will be different for everybody because we all have different backgrounds in different context and different experiences So there are people for whom it's boring to climb Mount Everest and so they have to go and climb K2 or something And that's not me right like it comes back to this idea of also We live in a world that's totally map. So what what does it what does it really mean to explore everyone has been every people have been everywhere And I think it comes back to exploring is about making your own decisions So that's why and discovering things that are interesting and new to you So I can go down to the river that's near my house on snowshoes with my kids You know this place has been inhabited for five thousand years and was explored by Europeans 500 years ago. It's new to us. It's new and it's exciting to us to go up that slope and to make those decisions and it's It's far more exciting to do that than to watch a documentary about something Not that I don't like documentaries, but you know what I mean like yeah no I think it's important like what is exploring and you say because if you were to contrast that with the guide Because you say it look you've done trips with guides and without guides, you know and you say the one you did with the guide was passive And the wording that you use here in this book the explores gene is meaningful exploration I will argue involves making an active choice to pursue a course that requires effort and carries a risk of failure A bold beginning of uncertain outcomes. That's great wording It's the active choice and that's what is the opposite of the dopamine hit from social media That's not an active choice. You're being fed. You know, you're not going to even look for it It's just coming to you and that would be the difference of The guide versus the I'm gonna take that my kids on this hike and there's no trails You know hopefully we get to the other side or just the snow suing So you're making an active choice for this new outcome that you don't really know what's gonna happen Spring has a way of filling up the calendar quickly Field trips sports travel co-op which are all good things But they can make it challenging to keep curriculum learning consistent March is really about maintaining momentum while life gets busy That's why having a flexible organized learning tool can make such a difference in the final stretch of the homeschool year IXL is designed to fit into your routine not complicated IXL is an award-winning online learning platform offering interactive practice in math language arts science and social studies From pre K through 12th grade it adapts to each child's level keeps it motivated and gives parents clear visibility into progress What I especially appreciate this time of year is how simple and time-saving it is Everything is organized by grade and subjects so you can jump right into exactly what your child needs Whether that's reinforcing a concept before testing or Confidently moving ahead the clear explanations and visible progress markers help kids stay encouraged as they work toward year end goals Make an impact on your child's learning get IXL now and when thousand hours outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership When they sign up today at IXL.com slash 1,000 hours visit IXL.com slash 1,000 hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price This is such a fun announcement to make wool bikes is officially the 2026 bike partner of 1,000 hours outside and if you've been around here long enough you know That's not a casual partnership We care deeply about the tools that help families reclaim childhood and womb is doing exactly that womb is founded by two dads and a Vienna garage who simply couldn't find a bike that actually fit their kids So they built one and what makes them different is that they don't start with engineering They start with empathy every part of the bike from the lightweight frame to the brakes size perfectly for small hands Is designed to help kids feel capable and confident in a screen dominated world bikes are more than bikes They are freedom. 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They're miles of memories before the streetlights come on So this spring we're launching something brand new the 100 hour ride challenge Or release a brand new tracker chart just for logging 100 hours outside on bikes And for at members stay tuned integration inside the 1000 hours outside app is coming if you've got little learners The womb go bikes are incredible available in six bright colors including the sweetest new powder pink that just feels like spring If you are working toward your 1000 hours outside this year a great bike makes it a whole lot easier womb designs lightweight bikes built just for kids so they can ride farther and ride happier go to womb.com and use code outside 10 I check out for 10% off your bike purchase excluding the womb wow That's outside 10 for 10% off at w o m.com Marches when homeschool families start looking ahead you can almost see the finished line spring goals End of your milestones maybe even testing around the corner And this is such an important time to reinforce key skills and build confidence before wrapping up the year If you are thinking about assessments whether required by your state or simply the benchmarks you set for your family It's awful to have a tool that makes review simple and clear that's where ixl can really shine ixl is an award-winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling It offers interactive practice across math language art science and social studies from pre-k through 12th grade A personizes learning for each child keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress What stands out this time of year is a real-time feedback and progress tracking Kids get instant explanations when they miss something and parents can see exactly where growth is happening And where a little reinforcement might help it takes the guesswork out of finishing strong make an impact on your child's learning Get ixl now and 1000 hours outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off ixl membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash 1000 hours visit ixl.com slash 1000 hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price So there's this like i said such a mix of you know learning about the dr d4 gene That there's this connection between that gene and hyperactivity and novelty seeking like that's called the explores gene And you know your own personal stories. I learned this new word. I love to talk about it Thigmo taxes Yeah That's that's that was a new word for me too I mean the origins of the word it actually means Touch you want to be touching something but what it means in the context of exploring is the way we tend to explore is to stay around the perimeter of spaces So you you always want to be able to touch the boundary because you know where you are so if you if you put Miserats and amaze There's there's a classic maze called the moris water maze which is basically a big Circular swimming pool and they have to find a hidden platform in it So they they go into explore and the way that they'll circle around the perimeter because they never want to get too far away from the from the known perimeter And then they'll make forays into it And it turns out that this is kind of how we explore You can zoom out from like This little maze with mice and rats and look at continents like how did Europeans first explore Australia? Well, they went around the perimeter and they did little forays into the interior Gradually and it took them you know hundreds of years before they could cross the interior because we like to stick to the The boundaries and if you know if you if you look at game trails in the forest They'll follow along the edge of a If there's a fence they'll follow the fence if there's a boundary between a field then a forest They'll follow the edge of the forest So it's like it's like this orienting thing and it's it's a way and you can even like not to get too far a field But the way we explore ideas is similarly similar to because we map ideas and concepts in the same part of the brain that we map the physical world So we'll have various ideas and we'll stick to those known ideas and then try and look for ways to bridge from one idea to another But we like it's natural to feel most comfortable in the places or among the ideas that we're most familiar with I love this and you talk about in this book you go and do a whole chapter about Adventuring into new thoughts in yours. You're talking They're out. I just so great about qubits and quantum computing because I've read a little bit like there's a book called the singularity by Ray Kurzweil Anyways, when I got to the quantum computing bar, I like stop treating because I was like I do not understand what's going on But the quantum supremacy I just like I love that phrase it makes me think of quantum supermisee, you know, but you're I don't even know like that's how someone would say it Someone came up with this quantum supermisee So you're sort of skirting around the edges. It's kind of connected to maybe what you already know And then there was another word incursions Where you would kind of like go into the interior about compact go, you know So you're gonna try something new and come back and there's just these different ways that people explore and I had never heard of any of this So it was fascinating to learn about The book includes a ton about kids all sorts of studies have been done on kids and How they explore and also a lot about play a ton about play and fun and how fun can guide our learning So can you talk about this concept of how we we want to explore like a child? They really explore in different ways than we do and often are inefficient Yeah, so this is actually really Surprising and interesting to me. So kids are kids, right? Like you you asking to do something and they don't always do it in the most straightforward way You're like I just asked you to pick up the clothes and put it in the thing like why are you upside down hanging from the the couch right now And so there's there's a A scientist named Allison Gopnik who came up with this theory that basically the whole point of childhood as a species It's our solution to the explorer exploit dilemma because how how do we balance exploration? Exploitation they're both important well There's an argument that when you're in a new situation You should explore as much as possible to find out what the options are and then as time goes on You know what the options are you pick the best ones and then you should exploit those So so that leads to this idea that you explore early and then exploit late Well over the lifespan of a human that's kind of what we do We humans have an unusually long childhood and children are really good explorers And as we get to become adults We become better at exploiting we become bet like okay. We know what the good options We were able to stick with what the the you know based on our prior experience what we think the best option is That's good for exploiting but it's actually not good for exploring So Allison Gopnik runs these studies where There'll be like a puzzle that you have to solve and you know, there'll be a pattern You'd say there's you have blocks of different colors and shapes and you and some of them are called blickets and some of them aren't and you have to figure out What's the rule for what determines whether something is a blicket or not? And when the rule is complicated and unexpected Kids are better at picking it up than adults are because adults make some assumptions Oh, it must be based. It's just like based on the color or the Combination of the color Whereas the kids are able to figure oh, it's actually based on the color of this one Plus whatever one you tested previously like it's a combination So kids are uniquely good at exploring they're bad at explaining so they gain this knowledge They don't know how to but to do with it But that's because Kids are wired to Discover to learn about the world. This is their time to learn as much as possible about how the world works And I would say I'd like to say is that this is help make me a more patient parent that I understand that kids are wired to Not do the most efficient thing possible and because they're learning about the world in practice I still get impatient and frustrated whatever but but it's something I remind myself that this is this is what they're supposed to be good at The I've told them the simplest and most efficient way to load the dishwasher or whatever and they're doing at the The completely opposite way well That's how they're discovering how the world works and they have to they have to go down some blind alleys to do this But to pick up the other thread you mentioned this idea of play one of the delightful things in researching this book Is that I got to talk to people who are like theorists of play people who study play and the theory of it And one way of thinking about it is that the The point of play is to to guide us to learn about the world most rapidly that our sense of fun is triggered by actively not passively following our interests to the things that seem fun because that's our brain signal that Here's an area where you can learn about the world Yeah, it's so good. It does have so many implications for parenting because you talked about how when they did some of these studies It was like while they would they give it even end or the kid would figure out what the answer is But then they're still messing around and that's what they're supposed to do they're supposed to mess around You talk about this link between our time the wording is so cool Our time horizon and exploratory behavior that when the clock is running Exploration is the most valuable when you have plenty of time left and it declines in value as time runs down So for our kids they have got a long time horizon I want to read this quote in here from Alison got Nick her book is called or I don't know if she has more than one But I've got one of her it's called the gardener and the carpenter and She says many of the traits we associate with young children. They are noisy. They're variable They're unfocused. They're unpredictable. They are impulsive are in fact features rather than bugs They help children explore the world around them with remarkable efficiency and in some cases they pick up clues at adults miss Here's the situation though similar to what you were talking about earlier with technology and technology hacking into our exploring circuitry Dr. Jean Twainny who I've she's been on the show she's got phenomenal books Okay, she talks about how when students come to college that a lot of them can't make simple decisions without calling their parents She says exploration is down So that's one of the things that you talk about in this book to the four generation shift of the eight year old Who would go six miles? I think it was yeah six miles at age eight. I mean can you imagine Alex six miles is I mean think about how long it takes to go six miles and especially if you're eight years old and you're kind of me Endering that's hours away from home and 100 years ago exactly In 1926 that was the range of childhood Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it's it's hard for me to comprehend and I would you know reading this study one of the details was like That family they were studying was too poor to so you couldn't take the street car He had to he actually had to walk Because he was going fishing at a fishing hole six eight miles away or whatever six miles away But yeah, it's it's this idea of It's they talk about they call it the home range. What's your home range if you're a kid which is where do you go? Where do you wander when you're outside? Wandering on your own and the answer these days is like what do you mean my kid doesn't wander outside alone My kids home range is like the kitchen the living room and the dining room But you know there's been a sort of linear decline and in that you know in that one study of four generations I know eight years old You know the great grandfather was like I can go six miles The grandfather was like I was allowed to go one mile to the forest and play there And then the mother was like I could go half a mile to the local swimming pool and the kid is like Well, he's allowed to go 300 yards to the end of his street and He doesn't do that much because there's nobody on his street. Everyone's inside playing video games So that's what he does too. So it's hard to you know There's probably a mix of chicken and egg is like people explore more because they're not allowed outside And they're not allowed outside because they're they're exploring less anyway They don't want to explore and it's this kind of circling the drain if you don't interrupt that that cycle Yeah, what a difference an eight-year-old is a third grader You know so you consider them going six miles to go fishing Then you're like okay, can they at least go around the block like can I stretch myself a little bit? You say that there are consequences here So spending a little time extra a spending a little extra time exploring your options and acquiring diverse skills Is more likely to pay off these days that it might have even a few generations ago because we're in this rapidly changing world What's interesting is ideally Actually the things like this larger home range that is going to contribute More beneficially to an age of AI where things are really rapidly changing you kind of got to be on your toes And you got you're probably going to have to explore more than exploit Yeah, you know, there are people that would have a career right Alex for 30 years and then they would retire Like they were able to live a life of exploitation But I think in this day and age you're less likely you're less likely to be able to exploit one thing for 30 years or 40 years Then in generations gone by so you say the decline of play both within our lifespans as we have become Kermajunli adults and across generations as we tether our children to low risk activities and high tech screens Has serious consequences. Can you talk about the consequence to creativity? Yeah, so I mean yeah, just just picking up quickly on on something you're just saying about the careers It's like yeah at the top of the show we were talking about all Alex made a you know a big career shift like For people of my generation You know, I'm 50 I was like oh, yeah, that's a big leap. I have the sense that for the kids of today It's gonna. Oh white you changed career menu 28 like I changed career seven times before I was 28 Like because I think that's the nature of the world that changes fast But yeah, so this this decline in play I think is tightly connected to the a broader sense of decline in innovation and creativity and you can you can look out Across a whole bunch of different Indicators, so I think the one the most relevant for parenting is you know, there's a standard test or a set of tests called the torrents tests which Test creativity now look testing creativity is really hard, right? So there there are some critiques of you know How effectively the torrents tests really test creativity, but it's a way of you know It's the type of thing where you you know you you look at a picture and you have to think of different uses for something or and and so it gives you some sense of how Flexible the mind of a young person is and every once in a while just like with SATs and IQ tests and stuff They have to re-normalize the test they have to say what is a normal? What is average on this test? And if you look at the ways they've had to re-normalize the test over the last 50 years Starting in the early 90s they had to keep re-normalizing it downward in other words the scores were going down So they had to change change what the scores they were giving and and then starting around 2012 that decline got even even steeper so the in the on this test in this measure at least it looks like kids are a lot less creative than they were in the 80s. Let's say And then if you zoom out to sort of more societal Markers you can say well, let's look at patents or let's look at scientific papers And that's Measure how what sort of impact they've had how many papers are genuinely new and linked together different areas versus just continue How many how many papers are essentially exploring rather than exploiting familiar old ideas and what you find is that there's a decline Across all these indicators patents are less likely to be disruptive Scientific papers are less likely to create to offer new theories. So there's this kind of sense that We're kind of getting locked into the exploit mode instead of the explore mode of of How we go through life as kids as adults as as a society and the guy You know that does that ultimately you would expect that that's going to make it harder for us to grapple with whatever challenges We're facing as a society over the coming century Yeah, you even talked about it in terms of movie sequels Yeah, that's a great example. I can't buy it. I know it's where I was like oh my gosh. Yes Yeah, so that's a big and this is there's a book called a great book called algorithms to live by by Brian Christian and I'm forgetting the second. Oh, there's name anyway. It came out about a decade ago And they they first pointed this out. It's like if you look in 1982 I think one out of the top 10 grossing movies was a sequel might have been the Star Wars one I think In 1992 it was three. I'm I'm assuming the numbers here But basically it was like and it was something like three in the early 90s a decade later. It was like five In 2012 it was eight in 2022 All 10 of the top 10 grossing movies were either like reboots or sequels and so this is the idea that like Let's not come up with a new story. Let's just we know that this other story made money So let's let's do another version of this same old story and so we're just telling us More versions of the other ever smaller number of stories. Yes. You say I have this question without original new movies Where are the sequels? Where tomorrow's sequels are even gonna come from When I was a kid I used to use kits to build pinewood Derby cars with my dad They often weren't the fastest but I remember thinking I made this and that feeling it stuck with me Now as a parent I know how hard it can be to compete with screens They're easy. They're loud. They're constant So we're always looking for hands-on experiences that actually pull our kids in That is why we love love love KiwiCo We recently worked on one of their engineering crates together and watching my child figure out how the moving parts worked Testing it adjusting troubleshooting. It was all that same spark the best part The huge grim when it finally worked and that little aha moment what surprised me most was how long they stayed with it No one's asking for a device no one's getting bored. It's not busy work It's just real building KiwiCo crates cover everything from science and engineering to geography and art and they show up right at your door every month The quality is incredible and these aren't one and done projects they get played with again and again I love that my kids are building skills while having fun persistence and creativity and confidence Tinker create and innovate with KiwiCo get up to 50% off your first monthly crate at KiwiCo.com Code 1000 hours that's up to 50% off your first crate at kiwico.com code 1000 hours panda crate is an exception seaside for details But this is all related it's a very important read for parents because The creativity is tied to play and there has been this incredible decline in play Creativity is not the same as intelligence you write And that the torrents test which are the ones that predict adult creativity or they predict creativity they measure creativity That they predict okay, I'm just watching this the torrents test are the ones that measure creativity you write they predict adult creative achievement Three times more accurately than IQ test problem solving skills are important, but so our problem finding skills In 85% of children in 2008 now this is before the iPhone So this is what so wild to me. I wonder what the numbers would be now 85% of children in 2008 were less creative than the average child in 1990 so the difference there is not the iPad Yeah, yeah, yeah, the difference there is the shrinking of the home range I would imagine yeah and There's a sense that that that if anything that has accelerated in the age of the I in the you know the iPhone and the iPad but Yeah, this is something that's been going on for for decades and and I think that you start to see the the signal in the torrents test starting in the early 90s, but You know that these and it's it's really hard to know exactly what you know if you what what's causing this one of the you know among the theories Like in the in the 80s is when you start to see newscast saying you know it's 6 o'clock. Do you know where your children are like you know someone was abducted 5,000 miles away from your home therefore your kid should not be allowed to walk home from school by themselves Um and look I don't want my kids to be a doctor to do there like so it's it's I I get it But there were a various different factors that were coming together to uh that for whatever reason they're you know Society just sort of converged on this idea that kids needed to have less uh Less freedom to roam Yeah, and it all goes back to this active passive thing you wrote kids who roam widely around their neighborhoods spend more time outside in our physically active They're able to pick up stronger navigation skills which that's one of the things you talk about helps grow the brain Have greater knowledge of their surroundings may even end up being less anxious as adults In countries around the world that home range has been shrinking steadily There is a clear link between the skills you pick up playing freely and the skills you need to navigate the unknown And that's the point we are going to be they in particular are going to be navigating the unknown Our kids are older than your kids so we've got kids that are on the cusp of graduating and For graduating from high school and the conversations with all the parents Center around we have no idea how to guide them yeah We don't know You you no longer are in a situation where you can say this would be a really good career choice or you know Why don't you go into law why don't you go into medicine? Why don't you go into teaching why you're like you just don't know and so To know how to navigate the unknown is such an important thing to have in the state agent You really touch on that in this book. It's called the explorers gene There's a quote that says playing games is our highest calling and some of the most innovative people were known You know in in history were known to be famously playful So you talked then so much about this active versus passive passive entertainment needs nowhere And I love this phrasing Alex you talk about endings that aren't yet written What's gonna happen if you kick that? You know if you take that penalty kick you know you're the one at the soccer game What's gonna happen if you perform that can share toe and kids are not necessarily having the opportunity to do these things because They are spending six hours a day on screen time by the time they're eight years old Yeah, and you know there's there's a really maybe an important point to pick up here Which is that these days it's very easy and very convenient to blame screens to blame video games to blame You know I've had in social media and all that stuff and I think it's absolutely true that these things are all very attractive and and they Play a big role in how our kids spend their times But one of the key one of the points that that One of the research that spoke to really tried to emphasize is like yes the screens are attractive But what's the alternative? What are we offering them instead of you know Like you should go play outside, but you have to wear a helmet and stay on the front lawn Um, then it's like well, maybe I don't want to go play you know Part of the reason kids don't want to play outside is that we've made the outdoors much less attractive because we've We've we've Out of a good out of a the periods of intentions and trying to protect them We've we've made we've taken away their opportunities to explore And so like there's there's research on I can't remember the name the phrase they use but basically you can score kids on what their independent mobility permissions are it's like so you ask it different ages Are you allowed to go to the end of the street? How are you allowed to cross the street? Are you allowed to by your You know with kids by yourself or you'll have to cross the stop sign you'll have to cross the light or you'll have to take the bus by yourself Or you'll have to ride your bike by yourself how many miles And you can you so you come up with this score And then you can look at the kids who score higher on this what they're allowed to do And it's like oh well, let's see how active and how fit are they going to be two years down the road? Well, not surprisingly the kids who are allowed to do more do more because it's more fun to go outside instead of Go on your iPad if you're allowed to go to the park by yourself If you're allowed to go meet your friends and and do things and and just Sorry, not to ramble, but but the the active versus passive thing I think it's so important and and the analogy that I sometimes use is like if you're Riding in the passenger seat of a car you can drive through a city and You're seeing everything that's the same as the driver like the windshield is the same But you get to the end of that drive and you ask the p2 people in the car How do we get back to where we started from the driver is going to have a much better idea because they've had to pay attention to the world They've had to whereas the the passenger can just sit and chat and doesn't have to worry about oh Okay, here's where we're turning right here's where we're turning left And so I think the idea of being outside and playing actively is also a forcing function that makes you pay attention to the world And learn about it instead of just gliding through like you're on a Disneyland ride where things go past you But you don't really have to pay attention to them Yeah These are all incredible concepts for families to read I just I thoroughly enjoyed the book as a page turner I learned so much you talk about how the actually this has been a problem for a long time In 1986 the the home range had already begun to plummet you told a story about a kid who is on the trailer It's lost and they're like well, he's six how far could he have gone? You know probably only two miles or probably it was like this huge range Because the sort of physicality and the ability of children was different But it was already dropping you talked about the book Boeing alone which I'd heard of but didn't realize It was written a while ago You know that these societal changes like you said we tend to blame screens But like this is already happening before the iPhone even came out But you did you did say screens are all the more attractive because exploring the real world is more boring Then it used to be what a statement Alex So it's on our shoulders, you know You are the real world in your world is not boring You're gonna go snowshoe where you've not gone You're gonna take your girls on these trails where you know There are no trails and you're trying to figure out where to go and it is inspiring to do things differently You say what does it mean to explore in a world where the urges that once drove us across oceans and into the unknown Can be satiated if only superficially with the swipe of a finger the primary way we are exploring today Is our tech and these algorithms are taking away our autonomy so a lot in here about passive versus active entertainment It is very inspiring Talk to us about your athleticism This kind of goes in line with both books So you're the endurance guy the science of endurance guy and I just didn't even know there was this world that existed Alex Where they're you know like Nike they're trying to find like who has the highest VO2 max and who who can we bring in and can we get this marathon under two hours and You know like it's just all of these this world to me that I didn't know anything about Because I was fast needing to read about but you're an athlete and you're Kind of exploring really your limits of endurance But one of the things that you talked about in your journey here is trying different types of sports and One of the ones that you tried is orienting So you're like used to racing But then I think it's cool that there's all these different things near where we live There is this um It's called race to the moon. I think it's called and I'm not done it But like we keep saying we're gonna do it. There's a little lake by us. It's called half moon half moon lake And it's a chain of lakes so there's like these little river connections from like this lake to the other one And it's called race to the moon because it's called half moon lake and they do like um Like a 15 mile swim and a 10 mile and a five oh my god So cool and we are in this little town like that no one's ever heard about But people come in from all over the country all over the United States I don't know if they come from out of the country But we just happen I didn't know about it and we happen to be there Not kind of Saturday at this little lake by our house like we go there and swim There's all this stuff setup Alex and it would be like um This man 88 years old from Texas, you know, and they're they're yelling out their times So it's a really cool event and I didn't realize that There's just so many I think that's wonderful so many ways to like Stretch your body. So you're this runner. You're like training for the Olympics and I know all about this endurance step And then you try something new. I've actually not even heard of it orient hearing you did your first race in 2011 So can you talk about even that's that's a bit of exploring right like you're not exploiting what you're already good at You're gonna try a new kind of sport Yeah, it was exploring on on two levels, right? Well one is yeah So I started running in high school and I ran through university and beyond university I'd been running for a long time and doing a lot of races and and everyone who does that Eventually has to face like okay like am I just gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again like you you know Especially as you get older you're like I'm not gonna get any faster. I'm like now So I kind of managed to climb so it's like Maybe try different challenge. I've run lots of five Ks. I've run lots of 10 Ks. I've run lots of miles Let's do this orientering race so that so which which an orient hearing basically that the just is Right before the race starts to give you a map It's got a bunch of checkpoints showing on the map and you have to go so there's you have to find your way Through the forest or you know, you have to and you have to make these decisions like should I go through this Like through the through the river and and through this deep forest or or should I take the the path which is a longer route So it'll be easier going but longer distance So in a sense it was it was exploring in the physical sense I'm going through like conservation areas and discovering but it was also exploring in the broader sense of like I'm having to use different skill sets and and it turned out to be skills that I'm very bad at You know going going in the wrong direction a lot many many times are going through. It's like oh So that little symbol on the map that meant that this was a field of like thorn bushes I should have known that because this is really painful So yeah, this it was way of it's a way of and There's lots of things that in life that we get into the habit of doing and they can be very satisfying And there's nothing wrong with that But it's a reminder that as adults You know every once in a while I'll do something new and I'll realize oh yeah It's been a while since I've been this bad at something like you know as as a 40 year old No one can make me do things that I I'm really really bad at but there's something really invigorating about Just trying something totally new being terrible at it But knowing that you're going to get better every time you do it because you're learning new skills you're putting Taking your body in new directions and your mind in new directions That's what I loved about it because you said this is a combination of physical and mental exercise Going on the word habit you say that you can do these things that are an anti-habit Exploration is and is an anti-habit you're not getting stuck in a routine You say it's easy to get stuck in sub optimal routine So you go on this orientating race and you said you're that this is Obviously it's engaging your body right because you're running its race But you're like it's engaging your mind in a different way And it's this combination of the physical and mental that really allow you to really be in the moment Have this heightened state of awareness you said you're in a tight battle with a bunch of 13-year-old girls Yeah, that was a humbling moment because you know, I had a very high opinion of it was a team race a three person race And we're all pretty like experience grown-up men and and towards the end of the race We just found ourselves in this battle and every you know We at each checkpoint would be like oh those Those girls there and so we take off and try and like drop them But we'd go in the wrong direction and they were smarter than us so they'd go in the right direction And so we'd show up in the next checkpoint. They're there in front of us again So you know that That was definitely like a A nice signal that hey you can get better at this Alex There's there's things to learn here because it's it's just as much about making good decisions as you know Under the conditions of fatigue and stress as it is about just running as fast as you can Yeah, yeah, it's very inspiring and that was actually a really cool full circle moment because Then when you were reading later on you're like studying because you're this journalist and you're looking at all these articles And you come across one that's about orienting and what was like one of the girls that was in the race had written the article So it's a cool for full circle moment and just it shows you live it You know you lived it with your wife, you know You're going on all these adventurous things, but now you're living it with your kids You're living it in this state of being an incredible athlete But trying different things where you're competing against you know middle school girls and and trying something new And it just gets your mind spinning. I want to hit this one last thing I thought it was really interesting the upper confidence bound algorithm Which is about Like when do you stop you talked about it in terms of the fiat it was a good one, you know like is this first thing or there's Is there someone else did I stop now or should I keep looking you talked about it in terms of looking for a home? You know, it's like okay, I've looked at 10 homes if I looked at 30 homes How do you know when to stop exploring? So can you talk and you use you relate this to regret? So I did I loved this this optimal stopping most people settle too soon Yeah, this is so I mean again, this is one of these patterns that shows up in all parts of life It's like how do I know when enough is enough and and yeah I would say I tried not to make this book a midlife crisis book But there is a little bit of a sense of like all right I was I've spent my mid 40s writing this book and it's a time when it's okay My career is on track and I've got kids and it's like you know I'm I gonna spend the next 30 years Trying to like claw my way higher on the the status scale or you know or you know I'm I gonna give up and just retire while I can't do that fine. I could quite yet, but I mean there's a point Where you start to to wonder like okay, what what am I chasing right now? What and what's what's important? Um, and I think about you know the analogy to exploring is like You look at all these explorers who discovered new continents or new places and it's like wow that must have been amazing And then you keep re you flip the page and it's like and on his next expedition He sailed out the edge of the earth and died or whatever and it's like a lot of these people were so drawn to keep pushing the boundaries that they Uh, you know, they kept going until basically they died or until they until they You know their choices caught up with them and so there as much as I think exploring is important I think it's also important to think about what where are you trying to get and what what is what is important? and You know the ultimately shea that we've all heard is you know, you should value the journey not the destination Those are words and I've heard them a billion times But I really came to the end of this book thinking that it really is that is like I can't imagine like Endure was a successful book that was wonderful I could write a book maybe maybe I'll write a book someday that's more successful than that It's not gonna change it's it's it's fundamentally not gonna like I shouldn't mortgage everything in my current life Just for the hope that something else is gonna be better because things are already really good and I should appreciate that But I shouldn't just stop exploring because that's also and so that you you mentioned this idea of the upper confidence bound algorithm, which is jargon for But coming from this body of work This sort of 60 years of people trying to study the explored exploit dilemma and say how do we? Okay, we can't solve it. We can't give you a perfect answer But what's the best approach? What's the best rule of thumb? And that's the rule of thumb they come up with in another way of putting it as optimism in the face of uncertainty Which is that if you're facing two choices And you know, they both have uncertainty. You're not sure how they're gonna turn out A good rule of thumb is to pick the one with the best upside What's the one that if things turned out well would be most exciting for you? It doesn't mean that if you pick it, it's gonna turn out well You might take that take the job that has the path that leads to the The what you think is your dream job and you but it doesn't lead there and it doesn't turn out well. That's fine but This what they can show mathematically Which is cool to me is that Being optimistic in the face of uncertainty taking the option that has the chance of leading to something really exciting to you Is the best way of minimizing regret of best way of not sitting in and around and thinking you know the way I think about it is like I If I think back to high school dances um, I never you know It sucks to ask someone to dance and have them to say no But you're gonna regret that less than all the times you just stood there and never tried to never ask someone You want to give it a shot and and failure sucks, but it's it's better than not trying Yeah, yeah, you say exploration pays off in the long run. What a book What a book endured it unexpectedly well It positioned me to perfectly brand myself as a science of endurance guy You could have milked that role for the rest of your working life But the spark of learning something new was gone and so basically you have Taken this path and people can follow and then done all the science about why and how to explain it is phenomenal And it will affect your parenting the book is called the explorer's gene why we seek big challenges new flavors and blank spots on the map I loved reading it Alex we always end our show with the same question what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside I think one of my favorite memories as I have a favorite uncle my uncle wolf who Really I think was the spark for me uh A finding ways of exploring Without going to Mount Everest or the North Pole of in the neighborhood And so I probably thinking of him because I'm gonna go snowshoeing today since it's a snow day here He's the one who When I would visit him in in Quebec he would take me out on these hikes or these snowshoes And I think we were gonna follow this path, but we'd be you know five minutes into the hike and you'd say Yeah, I think we can we could probably just cut up the side of this hill here And you know there's big signs saying that no trespassing or whatever, but it's and there's a path and Oh, then don't worry about that. Let's just see if we can make I bet I bet if we cut through this valley here We can make it and rejoin the path up there and I you know it was terrifying to me as a kid But but it's like I look back and it's like It's one of the most formative things I I loved the feeling that we were Trying something new going somewhere different and that every trip would be different And now you're about to go do it with your girls because it's a snow day Alex what an honor what an honor. Thank you so much for being here. I Sincerely like I've done a bunch of interviews. I I really loved talking to you because you really Or interested, you know read the book and we're interested in the ideas and connected with them So it's really a pleasure. Thanks Jenny. I love the conversation and thanks so much for having me Thanks so much for listening today If this episode gave you something to think about send it to one person who would appreciate this perspective That one share is how this show reaches a new listeners And if you want a zero cost way to support this podcast make sure you're following on apple podcast or Spotify Go to the show page and tap follow it takes a few seconds And it's one of the biggest signals you can send that this show is worth showing to more people and a quick note February is stacked every episode is already recorded and there is so much to look forward to you'll want those episodes landing Automatically in your feed if you're looking for a practical next step after this conversation you can grab our free Tracker sheets at 1000 hours outside commsize checkers or join us in the 1000 hours outside app on iOS and Android I'm really glad you're here until next time. 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