820: Cooking Questions with Lisa Donovan and We The Pizza with Muhammad Abdul-Hadi

When things get hard, how do you talk to yourself? I'm Robin Arson, VP of Fitness Programming and Head Instructor at Peloton, and this week on my new podcast, Project Swagger, I'm sharing my strategies for how to build better self-talk. It's time to work on befriending yourself. Follow Project Swagger wherever you get your podcasts. What is the secret to making great toast? Oh, you're just going to go in with the hard-hitting questions. I'm Dan Pashman from The Sporkful. We like to say it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. We use food to learn about culture, history, and science. There was a time we looked into allegations of discrimination, Bon Appetit, or when I spent three years inventing a new pasta shape. It's a complex noodle that you put together. Every episode of The Sporkful, you're going to learn something, feel something, and laugh. The Sporkful. Get it wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Francis. This week we're reliving the past with an episode from last year about the best pizza in North Philly, and we're taking your calls with our friend Lisa Donovan. Have a listen. I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APL. Sometimes food means more than just the food. In North Philadelphia, there's a pizzeria that is maybe the most innovative and I might say the most important pizza shop I've ever come across. It's called Down North Pizza and its founder, Muhammad Abdul Hadi, says the point of the place is to sling pies and save lives. He means it literally. In his community, two-thirds of people who come home from prison end up back in prison, largely because they come home to situations with no money, no resources, and no jobs. He started the restaurant specifically to hire only formerly incarcerated people. He's the author of a new cookbook, too, because the pies are really just that good. It's called Weed the Pizza, and we'll catch up with him later on in the show. but first we're going to talk with my good friend lisa donovan lisa is a terrific pastry chef who's worked in some of the most respected restaurants in the south after decades doing that she's turned to writing and leading cooking classes abroad and we have her here today to take on some of your cooking questions with me so hey lisa it's great to see you hey francis i'm glad to be here Oh, one of my favorite people. You know, it's been a little while since we've gotten to have you on the show. You've been busy. You've been leading cooking adventures in France, going back and forth from there to home in Nashville. You're actually currently in New Orleans. And you've been writing a monthly cooking column for the New York Times magazine. And okay, so you've always had a thing for New Orleans. I know that about you. I remember reading that book as well. And I want to ask you about one of your recent columns. It's about a cake you actually had in New Orleans called Gâteau Nana. Yeah, and technically I didn't have it in, it depends on who you ask. Some people say Gâteau Nana, some people say Gâteau Nana. And it actually didn't have it in New Orleans. I have had versions of it all, you know, in France, they have Gâteau Breton. They have different types of things that are very similar to this in France. And this comes from Melissa Martin's book, her new book, Bayou. And it's a recipe from a bakery not far from where she's from. And I might have to get, I feel terrible because I've been in such a flurry that I can't recall the name of the town. But it's a beautiful version of a very traditional French gateau called Gâteau Breton. and this has got pecans in it instead of using almonds, which is sort of the thing that I love the most about discovering is whenever you can find things that sort of are very cross-cultural but the same idea just with different ingredients based on where you're from, what your locality is. So I love it because it's made with pecans and as a southerner, pecan is sort of one of my top nuts. So, yeah. So I really love that recipe quite a bit. And that... Describe this cake for us. So you're basically making like a really beautiful short crust that's, you know, you can do this with like a quick puff. But this particular dough is made more of like a short crust. And you make it almost like a galette de roi where you've got a bottom crust and a top crust. And then you've got like a frangipane in the center. But instead of a frangipan made with almonds, you're basically making it with toasted pecans, which is so much a nuttier and warmer flavor. And especially if you're from a region that is prolific in pecans, it's like a very homey taste, I think, to a lot of us. I know like when I was growing up, my grandparents lived in Live Oak, Florida, and they had pecan trees everywhere. And one of our things to do was to sit around watching, you know, Mandrell sisters picking pecans from the yard. And so for me, like pecans is such a childhood, Southern childhood memory. And this is such a beautiful recipe that really elevates it into this very classic, you know, very French inspired cake, which full of vanilla, full of, you know, beautiful flavors that are just very simple and warm. And it's a really great holiday cake. I love it so much. Oh, cool. So I love Fran Japan, like those like almond paste. Me too. things like i love it at some point i realized uh i i changed from like a chocolate croissant person to an almond croissant person because i love that almond paste that frangipan um when you make that and usually people just buy it right you can just buy the frangipan but often i find it's very sweet and almost like plasticky it's not so super delicious when you make it fresh and you make it with pecans say is it just like blending the nuts and sugar like yeah and butter So, you know, I admittedly, like there are beautiful Fran Japan recipes that you can follow. I always just sort of throw mine together with soft butter and nuts and sugar and then maybe just like get one little egg in there just so it's nice and spreadable. And then it kind of bakes up a little bit more and kind of kind of brings everything together a little bit. And the great thing about, yeah, I put it in a, you know, who's a what's it, a little cuisiner, a little blender and just get it nice and like, you know, pasty. pasty. And basically you're looking for a texture that is akin to like a peanut butter, like a chunky peanut butter, you know, like a natural kind of peanut butter, maybe just a little thicker. And the great thing about making your own, it's so simple. You know, you get your almond paste or you make your own almond paste. You can just use nuts. You should always toast your nuts pretty much in any application just to sort of bring out some of the flavor and to really kind of help them, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to blend them warm though, I will say, because then, you know, you know, you. Do they start to like melt kind of? Yeah. And if you do want like a really smooth, I kind of like mine a little bit to have a little bit of the nut texture to it. You can also buy like a, what's it called? You can also buy just almond paste and use that or some kind of nut paste and use that. But the great thing about making it, you know, on your own is it's first, it's so simple. And secondly, you can always like up the salt a little bit, take down the sugar a little bit. I love putting warmer notes in mine with vanilla and I'll hit it with a little brandy or rum, you know, just something to sort of like round it out and sort of, I hate the word elevate, but you know, like bring it out a little bit. Yeah, just kind of make it a little more complex. Yeah, like have a little bit more of a conversation with it instead of it just being a sweet nut, you know? I love that. A conversation with nuts. It feels like modern life, actually. Seriously. Speaking of which, although I am not saying anything about our callers, they are probably really lovely people. You want to take some callers with us? I would love that. It would be so fun. Okay, so let's bring on Angela. Hello. Hi, Angela. Hey, Angela. So nice to meet you. Hi, Seth. How are you? Great. So where are you calling from? I'm in northern Michigan. I'm in Sheboygan, right below the Mackinac Bridge. Oh, beautiful. I love northern Michigan. I am an honorary Michigander at heart, so I love Michigan. Oh, really? I didn't know that. I love Michigan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I love it. I love the college there. Yes. My oldest is in Ann Arbor now, so I love it when I hear you refer to it on your show. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, great. And Sheboygan is gorgeous. It really is. It's so super green. Anyway, we don't have to talk about geography. What do you have in mind? What can we talk about? Well, I don't have access to fresh produce very long. It's about four weeks of a harvest season, if we're lucky. And I've been buying celebrity cookbooks for years. And I finally was able to go to one of my cookbook authors' actual restaurant. And one of the things I ordered was a marinara sauce. and I thought I'd been recreating it with his cookbook, but I obviously wasn't because his was so much better. And this is my thought, and correct me if I'm wrong, but marinara sauce doesn't take a lot of, like, technical skills, so I thought it has to be the ingredient. And in the recipe, it said two tablespoons of tomato paste, and I would just buy the little, like, three-inch can from the grocery store. And then I heard your episode on tomato paste, And I thought, I wonder if maybe I'm just not using the right ingredients. And if so, how can I make the tomato paste that could be a staple in so many things and make them better? First of all, I want to say thank you for being a listener. Second of all, I want to say I love us. I love that you're like, I listened to your episode about tomato paste. I'm like, I make a show where we talk about an episode of tomato paste. Like in any other part of the world. They'd be like, what's wrong with you? Like, why would you bother talking about this? But no, I love tomato paste. You know, the specifics are so helpful because they're the foundation, you know? So it's great. Yeah. Well, I mean, Lisa, I have spent so many hours making tomato paste. I used to think it was something, I used to think I was doing something else. Like I was like making tomato concentrate or I was making like tomato jam or I was making strato. And then one time the woman who would become my wife came into the kitchen as I was on like hour three of stirring. And I was like, babe, look what I'm doing. It's going to be amazing. And she's like, you made tomato paste. Yeah, that's why she's your wife. And that's why you're smart for making her your wife. No nonsense, that one. Literally, she said, you made tomato paste. It's cheap and comes in cans. Yeah. But it is good. But it's, I don't, you know, there are things that I find are better to just buy. Like I've tried making like pumpkin puree before, you know, but just buy the Libby. The Libby is just, you know, like it's just made so perfectly. But in this case, I think we're dealing with something that actually is so special to make and so easy to make. And so it's just a little bit of your time, you know, but like if you can get your hands on some really good tomatoes, why not? Like, how do you do it? Do you guys do your in the oven or stovetop or a combo of both? How do you guys do it? Wait, Angela, so you have not made the tomato paste yet, right? Your question is like, what's the secret to making tomato paste? What's the secret? And also, do you have some good ideas? I know buy local and everything, but if I did have to order frozen or freeze them or, you know, Just recommendations on types of tomatoes and different varieties and whatever you feel like talking about. I would like to hear anything about it. You don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah. Suddenly we're at hour three of tomato paste conversation. Lisa Donovan is the author of the memoir, Our Lady of Perpetual Hunger. She's a cooking columnist for the New York Times Magazine. And we'll be back in a minute with more of our passionate conversation about tomato paste. And we'll take more of your calls. I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APM. Hey, Kara Swisher here. I want to let you know that Vox Media is returning to South by Southwest in Austin for live tapings of your favorite podcasts. Join us from March 13th through the 15th for live tapings of Today Explained Teffy Talks Prof G Markets and of course your two favorite podcasts Pivot and On with Kara Swisher The stage will also feature sessions from Brene Brown and Adam Grant, Marquez Brownlee, Keith Lee, Vivian Tu, and Robin Arzon. It's all part of the Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest, presented by Odoo. Visit voxmedia.com slash sxsw to pre-register and get your special discount on your innovation badge. That's voxmedia.com slash sxsw to register. Really, you should register. We sell out and we hope to see you there. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Her First 100K, a.k.a. Tori Dunlop, a fellow personal finance creator who's changing how an entire generation thinks about money. Tori's journey is a masterclass in turning personal finance wins into a platform that empowers millions. She opens up about the real strategy behind hitting that six-figure milestone without the typical privileged blind advice and how she's redefining what it means to be a wealthy woman in 2026. We're diving deep into investment strategies for real people with real budgets and why financial feminism isn't just a buzzword, it's a movement. Get ready for an unfiltered conversation about money, entrepreneurship, and what it really takes to build both personal wealth and a business empire. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF. I'm Francis Lam, and this is the show for curious cooks and eaters. Before the break, we were talking with Lisa Donovan, taking your cooking questions and getting into all the finer points of making tomato paste let's get back to it for me anyway um i i i do make it but i only make it truly like in summer when like your friend has a tomato plant and they're just like trying to give them away or they're not expensive at the market because i would say like uh this kind of goes against every like local seasonal bone in my body but i have been amazed lately at like a few brands of off-season tomatoes like i'm like holy cow those taste really good to the point where like i feel kind of wrong eating them but like i i have found like different brands of like grocery store february tomatoes that taste really really good there's these ones called like honey bombs that are like incredible um and they also do they have they have a few like lines of them there's a honey bomb there's a sugar bomb they're all called something bomb and they're like i'm kind of blown away by how tasty they are but they're expensive and i wouldn't spend the money to buy them to like cook them for three hours and concentrate them you know i mean um i would when like oh the tomatoes are like a dollar a pound or like someone just hands you a whole basket of them uh so i would say that however if you're like in the off season and you really want like a very and maybe we should talk a little bit about the pleasures of making tomato paste aside from like boy you really want to stand there and stir for a long time um there really is something magical it's not just i think the concentration where you're cooking off all the water of the tomatoes until they become a paste there is something about like a very sort of light caramelization and i don't know i think there's something about the cooking it's not just the evaporation that makes them so not just sweet and deep but like super umami um and that's why i enjoy making it and then i'll like i won't even can it i'll just like freeze them like put them in ice cube trays and freeze i feel like freezing is the best way to go with that too i i prefer to just do them in a little like one or two ounce scoop um on a sheet tray freeze them and then pop them in a bag and then you can just grab you know a pre-portioned out amount however whatever you need for your recipe it's just easier that way when you when you go to all the trouble of canning you know which i i love the process of canning but and you know you know you can't really can less than what, like, what are those little baby jars? Like, I think they're four ounces, you know, are the smallest cans you can get. So you kind of have to then think about working through if you don't need all of that, you know, if you just need a teaspoon or something, working through, you know, a can or a jar of tomato paste versus just being able to pop out, you know, a little bit from the freezer is better. I think freezing is my favorite way to go. But I don't even mind, you know, you were talking about it being a bit laborious to stand over and that sort of being one of the drawbacks potentially for someone. But I think that's actually the beauty of making something like tomato paste is you're kind of tethered to a bit of a day where you can walk away, but you can set these like 30 minute timers. And I like to do mine in the oven because I just, I feel like that for me in a nice, you know, semi shallow baking dish, just and keep stirring because what you can get in the oven are these really beautiful caramelized edges of that pan that you can then reincorporate. And I think you can kind of get that on a stovetop, but something gets lost. I think when you don't do it in an oven, that richness, that depth, I think that you're looking for, I think happens a little more readily in the oven for my experiences than over a stovetop. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Oh, I love that. So basically, So you just take the fresh tomatoes, throw them. I don't even peel them. I just throw them in a blender and then just chuck them in. Yeah, I do seed them though. I do like to sort of like, you know, cut a little hole in the butt. And I typically use plum tomatoes, you know, and I'll use in the South, you know, I'm from the South. So when we get good tomatoes, we're going to be hard pressed to do much with them, but just eat them, you know, or make like, or, you know, put them in a jar hole or stew just a little bit. I actually, admittedly, I'm going to get arrested by the culinary police. But like, I actually find that the only time I buy grocery store tomatoes being from the South and all, I really have a hard time buying any grocery store tomatoes. I haven't found one that I love yet. But if I find myself with, you know, a bevy of like tomatoes that I don't actually care about, that might not be like the most flavorful, I actually think those for me are the best ones to make into a paste. Because really, then you get to work with pulling out the flavor. And, you know, of course, like the better the tomato, the better the paste. But it's actually a really good recipe to use up some, you know, grocery store tomatoes that might not be the best for a tomato sandwich or to make a whole sauce out of. Because then what you really get to do is pull the flavor out of whatever is in there of these like picked too soon tomatoes or, you know, things in the grocery store. They weren't God's children. Yeah, exactly. They were not the chosen ones. Yeah, but I'll just get the seeds out. But I'm with you, man. I just like leave the skin on and get them all processed up. Yeah. Well, I hope that helps, Angela. And I would say one more thing. If like, obviously now, like we're talking about you live in Michigan, you know, like, you know, that probably won't be till like August for you or even like September. Before you get your hands on the really good tomatoes. For now, I would say I would look at like Italian brands of tomato paste. And if they're called like, I forget, is it strato? Tomato strato, which basically means like extract or, you know, like some of those are really incredibly delicious. And it could be a little bit pricey, but like if you're using a teaspoon at a time just to give some real oomph to your sauce, it's really, really lovely. Or if you don't have to, like a little splash of soy sauce in the tomato sauce and the marinara sauce. Or it gives you a lot of that umami that you might be looking for. So that could be a little cheat for you too. And I'll throw in a little bit of the oil from the anchovy jar if you guys want to. Oh, yeah. That's always nice. If you don't want to fully commit to the anchovy flavor, just a little hit of that umami oil or the, sorry, the anchovy oil from the jar. If you get that upright jar of anchovies, you know, that's a nice hit as well. Just nice salinated little kick there if you want to just round out your flavors. Yeah, I think that would be great. And if I did go to a specialty store and found the paste, I like your idea of putting scoops in freezing little portions, even if it's store-bought. Because it's always so sad to watch that leftover half of a can of tomato paste dry out in the fridge. Yeah, totally. It would be a lot nicer. Yeah, agreed. Cool. Well, have fun. And thanks for the call. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Thanks for calling. All right, let's go to our next caller, Lisa. This is Jessamine. Hi, this is Jessamine. I'm delighted to talk to both of you. Hey, Jessamine. Nice to hear from you. Thanks so much for calling. Where are you calling from? Well, I'm calling from Santee, South Carolina. All right. Well, thank you. And what's your question? My question is about how to incorporate bitter flavors into different types of cuisines to add some depth and complexity. I'd really like to explore how I might be able to use unsweetened chocolate to add a bitter note. But I could use some guidance because the only recipes I'm finding are for sweet baked things. And also, the other part of that question is, is it all right for that purpose to use the unsweetened baker's chocolate or cocoa powder that I might find in the baking aisle? Or do I need to be on the lookout for a different type of product? I have so many thoughts about this I love this question I think I've never been asked this before in my entire life I've never heard someone say I want to experiment with adding bitterness because I think people think of bitterness as being something only to be avoided but Lisa go for this yeah well I mean a couple like the obvious thing that comes to mind is like a Mexican mole really uses it to sort of create that sense of depth. And I understand, you know, bitterness, kind of going to your point, can have, in professional kitchens at least, kind of a negative connotation. And I think what we would call that is just sort of a richness. I think you're trying to sort of find like an extra avenue in which to sort of round out some flavors. And I feel like when you're talking about using like an unsweetened chocolate or a cocoa powder, what it brings to my mind is more sort of an under flavor, if that makes any sense, right? Like you're trying to sort of hit like a different round instead of salty or vinegar or, you know, anything like that. You're really trying to bring something down to the belly of its own flavor, right? So when I think of mole, I think it's like, you know, this richness. Francis and I just had, you know, this beautiful duck mole a few months ago in Nashville at this place called Maest de la Vida. And to me, there is that sort of suggestion of that bittersweet chocolate that he's using in there. But really what it's doing is it's taking all of the other spices and all of the other flavors that he puts into that mole and just grounds it, like immediately grounds it into the dish. And it's so beautiful. And I think, you know, that's sort of the obvious one is talking about when you're talking about unsweetened chocolate is a mole. But I could see so many other places in which you could put that, you know, a lot of these kind of gamier meats to me kind of might be the call for that, you know, maybe have this sort of space to sort of create maybe like a rich broth. And the way that I'm thinking about this is sort of almost like when you're braising something in a red wine, maybe that might be a fun place to sort of play around with like a real depth. If you're finding yourself with like, I don't know, a venison or something like that, maybe even a duck, you know, I think duck and these sort of richer meats maybe are calling to sort of be grounded a little bit because those flavors can get hit the wrong way, right? But if you give it something that's a little bit more grounded, it might be nice. And just to sort of answer your question about the quality of chocolate. I'm a huge fan and advocate for use what you can find, right? Like that's, that's, I think for me, like the beauty of cooking, like use what you can find with the understanding that of course, if you're standing there and you have the option to get a nicer chocolate, that's going to be a different experience, you know, not maybe marginally, you know, but if you're really trying to sort of play around with figuring out what to do with I would just start with the, I think that Baker's chocolate is just fine. You know it doesn quite have the notes if you will Like I don really love to talk about food like wine necessarily because it starts to feel a bit you know elitist But if that the nicer the chocolate or the more considered the chocolate is made, the richer the flavor will be. So just keep that in mind. But I'm a big advocate for using what you can find. And cocoa powder is a really good option as well, because that tends to sort of be a little less processed than the than the bar might be you know yeah i would also say too i love what you have to say at least that it's like the bitterness particularly if you're using a dark chocolate it kind of like grounds the flavor more than anything else um i would say the same thing about the chocolate and i'm a huge fan of like lots of like they're all these new um like very small batched bean to bar chocolate makers um particularly in the u.s um like the makers are here that the cacao you know doesn't come from is never local uh you can't grow cacao in most parts of the united states but uh you know their their whole thing is like they really want to feature the natural flavor of the cocoa beans and and all that um but i do think a lot of those really amazing chocolates are i mean if you have unlimited resources for your recipe, sure, go for it. But if you're going to be doing it with spices or red wine or a braise or meat, some of those nuances probably are lost. And so like Lisa said, using whatever is on hand, like a very bitter chocolate or a baker's chocolate, kind of gets you that oomph, especially if you're using that, but you don't necessarily need the sugar. You can add the sugar. You can control the sugar yourself. So if you're adding a 70% dark chocolate, you're also adding sugar to your recipe. And maybe that's not what you want. Maybe you just want the dark chocolate flavor. Yeah, that's a great point. I have a quick question, if we have a second for you, Jessamine, is how have you used it so far? Have you tried using it in different applications yet? I have not. I thought I would ask for guidance before I perform too many experiments in my kitchen. Do you have any daydreams right now? Are you Are you imagining anything right now with it? Well, you know, I would like to. I like the idea of the mola because we do really like Hispanic food. And so I think that would suit really well. If I can find a couple of good recipes for that, I think I'll try that avenue first and see where I get. A great place to start is Patty Yenich is an amazing Mexican-American chef. And she has some really beautiful recipes. If you want to look her up, it's P-A-T-I-J-I-N-I-C-H, Patty Inich, and she's got some beautiful recipes. And I know she's got a couple of different mole recipes if you want to check them out. Good. I think that's a good place for me to start. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you both very much. I really appreciate the guidance. Thank you for the great question. That was a fun one to think about. Yeah, I love that. Have fun. Okay. Thanks again. Bye-bye. Take care. Bye-bye. Hey, I think we have a couple minutes left. Do you want to try? We actually have a voicemail from Rick. Let's try this one. This is Rick Malone. And I do have a question, and that's about garlic. When a recipe calls for X number of cloves of garlic, does it matter how large the cloves are? Do two tiny cloves equal one medium-sized clove? Or how do you know? Or does it just matter on how much you love garlic? I got to say, you know. This is like the third rail question for recipe writers. It's a hard. This is, this is, we're laughing because this is like literally the question of the day every day, whenever you write recipes. You know, it's so funny. And the same goes for vanilla. So me and Erin Jean McDowell, we got to cook last year in France and we were talking about vanilla. And she has this turn of phrase that's basically you measure with your heart. Yeah. And I feel the same way about garlic. I don't know if you do, but, you know, I just always basically, you know, try to find the biggest, heartiest, most beautiful clove. And that to me is a clove. And if it's a smaller one, well, then I use three. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I mean, everybody even says it is just like how much you like garlic. I think, yeah, for the most part. I mean, there are some people who are like super sensitive to the flavor of garlic. And I think that changes too. Like raw garlic is a very different beast than cooked garlic. So if the recipe is for raw garlic, I would maybe try to err on the side of caution maybe and then add more later because you can always add more. You can't take it out. So if it's like one clove and you have like a teeny clove and you have like a massive clove, maybe start with the teeny one and then see how much you like it. That's right. And the thing with garlic and in particular raw garlic, the flavor does tend to bloom. Meaning once you've minced it up or grated it or whatever, the flavor actually increases over time and will actually increase in the recipe over time. So mix it in, give it a moment, maybe even a few moments, not like two minutes later, but after a while, maybe 10 minutes, 20 minutes, see how that flavor is. and other flavors like where you want it, then great. Otherwise you can add a little more. But if it's a cooked garlic, I'm like, sure, whatever, dude. That's right. You know, a fistful, two tablespoons. Just do whatever you want. Exactly. Like if you've got really beautiful, super fresh garlic, I mean, you know, I think a lot of people feel like garlic is garlic is garlic. But if you go to a farmer's market and find some like really beautifully fresh grown garlic, it's actually a little bit more vegetal than like the garlic. And more mild. It's way more mild. That's right. Like it feels very fresh in a way that store bought garlic that's a bit, you know, aged, we'll call it. It doesn't quite feel, but yeah, it feels fresher and it's a little less spicy and it's a little less, you know, on the tip of your tongue and then it's instead in sort of the round of your mouth, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Again, you know, yeah. And I guess it just depends on like your application. Like you were saying, like for fresh, I probably would go pretty light, but I love cooked garlic. I mean, and if it's hot roasted and smeared on something even better, you know, right on. Well, Lisa, it has been so fun to talk with you. Well, it's always nice to talk with you. I love hanging out with you, Francis, either over mole or over questions in the kitchen. Yeah. Well, thanks for dropping by. I'll talk to you again soon. Yeah. Thanks, man. Bye. Lisa Donovan is the author of the memoir Our Lady of Perpetual Hunger and is a cooking columnist for the New York Times Magazine She left us with her recipe for Tarte de Tain Told you, she's been perfecting it in France Find it at splendidtable.org Coming up, maybe the most innovative pizza shop ever is Mohamed Abdul Hadi of Philadelphia's Down North Pizza I'm Francis Lam and this is The Splendid Table from APM I'm Francis Lam, and this is the show for curious cooks and eaters. Mohammed Abdul Hadi studied criminal justice policy in college, founded and ran multiple companies in different industries, is a James Beard Award winner, wrote a cookbook called We the Pizza, and is the owner of Down North Pizza in Philadelphia. He also worked his first shift in the restaurant wearing an ankle monitor. And Down North's whole purpose is to employ formerly incarcerated people, giving them stability and a chance to rebuild their lives after prison, all while making some of the most inventive, delicious pizza you can imagine. So hey, Mohamed, it's so great to see you. It's a pleasure to be seen. How's it going, Francis? I'm okay. I'm okay. Thank you. So Down North Pizza is an award-winning restaurant. It kind of invented its own style of pizza. It has some of the most creative sauces and toppings I've ever seen. But none of that, I don't think, is the most important part of Down North Pizza to you. Tell us how you came to open this restaurant and why it matters. Wow, that's a loaded question. I'm going to dive right in. Yeah. So, no, of course we have some great flavor profiles. We have some great recipes. That's by far, it comes secondary to the mission and what we stand for here at Down North Pizza, where we focus on a specific group of individuals. And these individuals have been impacted by the carceral system, formerly incarcerated, to be specific. And we exclusively hire those individuals. We focus on improving their lifestyle and providing them with various different resources to navigate life post-incarceration. As we know, the life has changed drastically going through the system. And we understand the different nuances that goes into trying to stay out of prison. So because we all have been impacted by the carceral system, formerly incarcerated. We understand that community is very important. Being around individuals who can relate to the struggles and the different things that you have to endure coming out of the system. So I was more so focused on creating that environment that was conducive to growth to help these individuals navigate that. And pizza was just the vehicle to carry the message and to get these conversations started about the overarching problem that plays America as a whole. Yeah. So, you know, this is probably the first cookbook I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot of cookbooks. This is probably the first cookbook I've ever seen that A, includes the word recidivism and B, defines it for people. So this is not a word that necessarily everyone knows, right? But it refers to how people who come out of prison often end up back in prison. I believe the statistic is that 40% of all prisoners come out of prison and go back in within a year. And in North Philly, in your neighborhood, it's almost 66%. It's almost two thirds of everyone who comes out goes back in. What are some of the causes? What are some of the stories that you've seen that influence that figure that sort of like kind of makes it, it's that kind of like makes it inevitable um i could start with something as simple as resources right yeah uh resources readily available to individuals like employment like housing right which are the two biggest drivers to recidivism lack of employment and lack of stable housing right so sometimes what i've seen had experience with is individuals are forced to go back to the same toxic environments that they lived in before that got them in the you know some of the situations they have to go back to those places go back to those particular neighborhoods and environments that have caused them to you know be a part of that statistic right so you have to have resources readily available and because we are in the neighborhood which is very important because to your point, 66% of it happens here in Strawberry Mansion, we need to be close to the problem. So we need to be in these neighborhoods that have high recidivism rates so that we can be visible and let them know that there is hope, but we also need to show them there's hope. And I want to just touch on something about recidivism that people may not know as well. They assume that these individuals are recommitting or committing additional crimes to get back into prison. But that's not the case. A lot of the times it's just things called, they call DVs and they're direct violations of stipulations that have been put in place for individuals who have been paroled or on probation from incarceration. So we look at simple things as driving in a car with somebody who doesn't have a license, right? Or being around another individual who was on parole. Or, you know, simple everyday things that people unconsciously just do that can potentially land these individuals back in prison. So it's a lot of direct violations that are happening, minor things, you know, that these individuals can go back to prison for a minimum of six months. Mm-hmm. So it's not necessarily individuals are going out and committing additional crimes. It's this direct violations. Right. And they could be so minor right I think there an example in the book and I apologize because forget apologize because i forget exactly which um you know member of your team had a situation where he had to move i think he was living with his grandmother grandmother lost her house and then he didn't refile his new address and that became a reason to to to go back into the system yeah you're talking about chef mike um okay yeah i know an unfortunate event happened his the actual house we're talking about burnt down. And because he didn't report that right away, it was a direct violation. Because you can't change where your address is, where they have you parole to, without informing them. So that was a direct violation. And that caused him to have to go back into the system and back inside. And we talk about things that, say, if you get fired from your job today, and you start another job Monday and you may have forgot like, oh, let me call my PO, parole officer to be clear and tell them what happened. You may have forgotten and slipped your mind. That's a direct violation. You're switching employments without notifying this parole officer. So that in a turn can land you in jail. Mind you, it was hard enough to get a job in the first place. So you got an additional one and now you're back inside, going to lose that job. And when you get released, if you get released, you're starting back from square one. So every time they go back in, it's like, think about every six months or every year, you have to press a reset button on your life and everything that you've accomplished within the previous year. Right. And since you're mentioning jobs and employment, obviously, you know, that's one of the hugest contributors to recidivism, right? You come out of prison, it may have been, you know, two years, it may have been decades, but you come back out and you don't necessarily have, right, a network to help you keep you supported. Very hard to get employment. Obviously, a lot of employers will discriminate against people who have come out of the system. Many states, you know, try to combat that by saying you're not allowed to ask, but people try to find out anyway, you know, things like that. So that went into your decision to open the restaurant in the first place, like literally to open a business to hire people to give them jobs and fair wages and so on and so forth. Tell us about that story. Tell us about like the evolution of that idea, how that idea came to you. And then tell us about how it actually went down when you opened because you have such a dramatic opening day story. So, yeah. So, yes, I come from a background. I've opened various different businesses and I've always seen the benefit of hiring individuals who have been impacted by the carceral system. So I come from a health care background and I, you know, own some treatment centers and drug and alcohol to be specific. And what I saw through that process is that the focus is on surrounding individuals who have been impacted by addiction with other individuals who've been impacted by addiction. Because of relatability, these individuals understand where they've been and understand some of the things that the individual who's recovering is going through. And not only to put the individuals recovering around each other, but also to hire individuals who have experience with recovery on a personal level. And the statistics shows that that stuff works. So my thing is we need to look at that from the formerly incarcerated perspective as well, because these people can relate to each other on different levels. right so even you know when i was actually building down north pizza right and i had a construction team that was putting this building together those were all individuals who weren't formerly incarcerated right so when we talk about down north business the actual fabric and bones of this building were built by individuals who've been formerly incarcerated so this full circle moment of this actual physical space that we're residing in it bleeds the mission in every aspect so what we're doing is very very important for the neighborhood because you know philadelphia is very territorial i'm from west philly this is north philly i couldn't just come into the neighborhood and put this business here that did not benefit the neighborhood as a whole yeah and as the word got out about that obviously you were trying to hire you were sort of putting the word out you've right in the book um the opening of the book talks about the opening of the restaurant and, you know, on day one, you had a line at the door. Was it folks in the neighborhood being like, hey, you know, we know this thing has been happening here. We want to come check this out or what was it? Yeah, honestly, when I first thought of the concept, people thought I was out of my mind because, you know, Strawberry Mansion neighborhood, pizza, you know, I don't have any background in the culinary space. So it was like so many strikes against this business is not succeeding in people's eyes. But I didn't let that deter me because for one, I know it needed to happen. And I was very confident that we can make it happen. Even being a Black person in the pizza space was something that was foreign to a lot of people because traditionally that's not the case. So it was a lot of things that people would look at as negative strikes against us trying to develop and bring this concept. So I didn't know what to expect, honestly. I just knew I was confident that we would have some success. So when grand opening and we had the line down the block, I remember peeking my head out the door and looking down the street and like, okay, this is happening. It's kind of a surreal feeling because it's like, you think about these days, you remember the mishaps, you remember the construction delays, you remember everything. And sometimes in your head, you don't ever see a finish line because you just constantly have to keep on working through whatever problem occurs. So to see people lined up and people from the neighborhood, media, people from outside of the neighborhood, people from outside of the state of Pennsylvania, right, were so excited about this actually opening up. It just gave me a breath of fresh air and relief that we're on to something good. But meanwhile, there were three of you in the kitchen. Yeah, so for a split moment, we forgot about some of the staffing issues that occurred in the beginning. And we were like, okay, now, you know, we got to get to work. And mind you, as I said before, I had no culinary experience. So, you know, bumping into Mike, you know, the executive chef. Mike will talk about it, you know, a little bit in the book. It was very frustrating for him to turn around and not be right there. He bump into me, maybe drop something. So that in itself was like a journey for me. And I learned a lot. So for everybody listening, I started off on the fries and the wings and eventually made my way up to the pizza. Yeah. You went to work yourself up from the bottom too. But tell us about some of the folks who have worked at Down North. You introduced some of them to us in the book, like Miss Trammell, the matriarch of the team. Tell us about her story. Miss Tramelt, she was the matriarch of the team. She was like the grandmother when we opened. And she literally just came up to the door one day we were working. She was from the neighborhood and was like, I need a job. I just came home. I think she did a total of five years and she just came home and wanted to join the team. She didn't have any experience per se in the kitchen, but But she had other skills, which I believe everybody possessed a skill level, a skill set of something, right? And she became a part of the prep team and the expediter come grand opening. And anybody that knows who's from these neighborhoods around Philly, it was always the matriarch or the grandmom around the neighborhood who always would yell down the street to call people's names, to tell them it's time to come in. And so Tramiel brought that energy to grand opening. So it wasn't a traditional expediting experience. It was us telling Miss Tramiel such and such pizza is up and Tramiel going outside yelling, send your pizza up. And it became like a thing. And it was very, very effective. And it was very funny because a lot of people could relate to that growing up and hearing your mom or your grandmom just calling your name. And it's like, oh, am I in trouble? You've been in college for dinner now. So that was, you know, some of the great memories of Miss Tramiel. And like everybody just loved her and gravitated towards her. And she would, you know, just be so appreciative of being in this environment and happy that, you know, we were willing to take a chance to give her a chance at what we had going on. Let's get to the food, too. You know, your pizza is not Chicago style. It's I guess people call it Detroit style, but I think you like to call it like let's just call it Philly style. And you really put an emphasis on that. All the pizzas are named after songs from iconic Philadelphia musicians, rappers, singers. Maybe let's start with the signature sauce, the North sauce. I've never seen a pizza sauce recipe quite like it. Describe your sauce to me. North sauce, sweet, smoky, spicy. It's a burst of flavors that work. Mike likes to coin himself as the flavor regulator. So Mike, he likes flavorful things. So, you know, everything that we give you has some flavor to it. So the North sauce, it's spelled N-O-R-F because being from Philly, that's how you say North Philly. You know, vernacular here, you say North with an F. So that's why it's called North sauce, not North sauce. Yeah, yeah. So that's our signature marinara sauce that goes on about 60% of our pies. Like nothing's traditional about Down North Pizza as a brand. the individuals. So we wanted to stay on brand with everything that we did. So that's what, you know, you get with the North sauce. And we always constantly correct people if they call it the North sauce. So just as that. Yeah. All right. Let's get to some of the pies. I want to talk about one that is kind of like, and I know Chef Mike, a lot of these are his creations, but this one seems very personal to him. It's called Tales of a Hustler. Tell us about this pie and what's on it and the story behind it. So Mike, he loves to smoke things. He has a smoker and you give him a chance, he'll smoke anything. Even things that from a chef perspective is not supposed to be smoked. So that's a smoked brisket pie. And to the point where it's like, it's not a traditional topping on a pizza, but we feel like our pie is a blank canvas is what we look at it essentially as a blank canvas. So that one is very dear to his heart. It's one of his favorite Philly songs, one of his favorite Philly artists, you know, Sparks, Emilio Sparks from West Philly. You know, me and Mike are from West Philly. So it's like it has that sentimental value as well. You also do a lot of vegan pies. Yes. Tell us about that. The PSK sounds incredible. That has oyster and shiitake mushrooms, onion peppers, and aji amarillo sauce. So like a Peruvian chili sauce. Why the focus on the vegan pies too? Because we noticed that, because I myself, I don't eat dairy. So we understand that there's a market out there for individuals who don't particularly eat dairy or have dairy allergies, but would like to enjoy a nice vegan pie. And also people who are not vegan enjoy these pies. And I've actually tricked some of my friends and just gave them the pizza and not telling and was vegan. And they was eating like, yo, what's this? It's so good. I'm like, you know that was vegan, right? I'm like, no, that wasn't vegan. So it's like, you know, sometimes that's a good way to test some vegan stuff. Just give it to them and just, you know, see what happens after that. All right, Muhammad. Well, at first I would have thought, it was pretty funny that a guy that doesn't eat dairy decided to open a pizza place. But now I understand it's all part of the larger mission, right? It's all a larger mission of community and giving people from different backgrounds a place where they feel like they can belong. So thank you for that. And thank you for spending the time with us today. No, I appreciate it. And, you know, for those of you listening, Down North Pizza, We the Pizza. Check us out. We the Pizza. Muhammad Abdul Hadi is founder and owner of Down North Pizza in Philadelphia. His new cookbook is called We the Pizza, Slanging Pies and Saving Lives. You can find a recipe for their signature sauce, North Sauce, at splendidtable.org. And that is our show for this week. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next week. The Spun the Table was created by Sally Swift and Lynn Rosado Casper, and was made this week by technical producer Jennifer Lukey, producers Eric Romero and Maria Wartell, and managing producer Sally Swift. Jordan Turgeon is our digital producer. Our intern is Ruby Sigmund, and Lauren Humbert is our senior podcast production manager. Thank you for listening. I'm Francis Lam, and this is APM, American Public Media. you