E239: Breaking Down A Real-Life Text Fight (pt. 3)

I do like at the end, he's saying that I get that you are being playful and I'm not mad at that. Because I think that that's actually important. He's saying to her that I don't want you to stop being playful. I like you being playful. It's just that this was perhaps too playful. OK, so she says, could have fooled me. You seemed pissed going to bed. We took a hard turn already. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours. Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are doing part three of one of my favorite series that we've ever done on the podcast. It's called Breaking Down a Text Fight. Text fights are great. They're not great when you're having them. No. They're not great for us to be able to dig into and talk about what went wrong, all the communication stuff. And it's really a great insight into another couple's relationship. Also, I think it makes all of us feel really seen because we're like, yep, we've been there. I can see myself in so many parts of this text fight. Yeah. So what we did is we turned to our Instagram community and we said, if you've had like recently had a fight with your partner over text, send us the screenshots. And I think there are so many different reasons why this works. The first one is like, you know, we could do an episode with 10 communication tips, like tip number one, don't say never and always. And like, yeah, you could gain a few tips. But I just think when you have a real world example in front of you, it makes that learning so much more tangible. Yeah. And you absorb it so much better. And it's way more tangible than asking a couple after the fact, hey, describe a bad fight that you've had. Even if you get both partners perspectives, it's like it's a hindsight perspective. And, you know, both partners are like, you know, they're bringing in whatever they learned coming out of it and like, oh, yeah, you know, trying to put a kind of positive spin on it. And the reality is none of us really remember the gory details of what actually happened in the middle of the fight. We remember, OK, yeah, that was rough. This is generally what happened or what I think did or didn't happen. And then here's how we, you know, came back together or here's how we made up and here's what we learned from it. But when you get the text fight, it's like the receipts are there. There's no there's no sugarcoating it. Like there's no like, oh, let me go in and edit this tag so I don't sound so annoying here. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I was going to say was the second reason is like you're not relying on people's memories, which are super faulty. You have exactly what happens in what was said. So in general, we do not recommend having fights over text. Like we definitely recommend to communicate in person. But if you want us to break it down, I would recommend doing it over text. It is very useful for us to break down. But, you know, yeah, sometimes maybe your long distance or whatever stuff happens. None of us are perfect communicators. So it is nice to have exactly in front of us like what happened between this couple. So with this specific episode, I got to say we so we did one of these episodes probably a couple of years ago. And at the time we got submissions and there were so many good ones that we saved them to do for future episodes. So I did read this one at some point in time, but I've completely forgotten it. Great. I told Xander not to read it. So we're both going to be pretty fresh. So we'll be able to just give you our first impressions are in the moments, you know, reactions to it. So I think it'll be more fun to do it live like that. Yeah, honestly, it's better this way because the reality with a text fight is you you don't get a text knowing what is going to happen, like 10 texts down the road. So it's it's better for us to talk about it, you know, text by text. Because otherwise, if we read the entire thing and then we're like, oh, then then we know, oh, well, here's what you really should have done in text to knowing what happens in text 20. Right. Like, but yeah, this is like, I mean, this is just so real. Because it's like this is what it's like in the trenches as it's happening. Oh, my God, what is happening? Why are we in this argument? Yeah. Also, I want to give props to this couple for being willing to share their dirty laundry. Yes. Even though it's anonymous, like it still is vulnerable to send something like this in and to allow it to be a learning experience for all of us. So it's really easy to look at other people's communication and bad behaviors and not so great things that they said and make snap judgments of it and say, like, oh, my God, I can't believe they said it that way. I would never do that. Yeah, I want you. Yeah, you would. We all do. So I want to I want to appreciate them for being vulnerable. I want to ask for empathy for this couple and just recognition that, hey, we all do stuff like this sometimes. None of us are perfect communicators. Yeah, try to see yourself in this, whether it's past or present or future, potential future. OK. And if you start listening to us, breaking this down and start thinking, oh, my God, this is hitting a little too close to home, or maybe we do some of those things or just you're feeling like you and your partner, things are maybe feeling a little stale, not super exciting for you. But we want to tell you about our super exciting challenge that we are launching in January called New Year, New Us, the 21 Day Relationship Refresh. So we'll share more details with you later in the episode. But we really wanted to do something to take advantage of that New Year energy that most of us get. They're like, OK, the calendars are restarting. Time to like start things fresh. And obviously, we are all about helping relationships thrive, helping couples who don't want to settle for just OK or just being roommates. Like we want you to feel that real, lasting, deep intimacy that we all are craving. And unfortunately, so few of us are feeling. And we want you to have more fun with your partner, too. I think that's something that I've just been paying attention a lot more lately. Just the idea of having fun with each other. I think even couples who like maybe nothing's necessarily horrible. You're not fighting. It's not terrible. But you're just kind of wondering, like, God, we just don't really have fun with each other the way that we used to. So we designed this challenge to be super, super simple. We do not want this to be like, oh, my God, it's the New Year. Now I have to commit to like one hour a day doing this and do the 75 hard. You know, no, we're not getting into that. We wanted it to be really simple. So it's literally five minutes a day. But you have the option to like go deeper if you want to. Well, again, I'll tell you a little bit more about the whole the full setup of what it walks through. But it's basically three weeks, super simple, super easy, super doable, but has an out sized impact. You are going to be having more fun together. You are going to be creating new memories together and really starting at 2026, feeling so close and so connected. So if that's already sounding great, you can head right on over to VMtherapy.com slash deeper VM. T H E R A P Y dot com slash deeper. We will also have the link for the show notes for we will have the link in the show notes for you to go straight to it. But we would love for you to join us new year, new us. OK, so let's get into our text fight. This is between a husband and wife. I'm going to read the wife's part. You'll read the husband. And let's just pause any time either one of us has something to say about this fight. And remember, we are reading this completely live. So we're hearing we're learning every little detail as you are to. OK, so she starts it off saying, I'm sorry I annoyed you last night. I was in a goofy mood and I thought with you egging me on, you were too. And I misread the situation. It's a good apology. We've been there. Totally solid. And yes, we have absolutely been there. I feel like the first couple years of our relationship, this was a this was like an ongoing issue. And it was all me misreading, misreading the situation and taking things too far. I'm sorry. It's funny. It's actually funny. There's like 10 seconds aside here. It's funny because that's just not a thing in our relationship at all. It was so real. But it took it took a while. Yeah, it took a while. I learned. I finally learned. But yeah, this is a great example of an apology. I like that she gives some context, but it's not used as an excuse to like, you know, I thought you were egging me on, but she's fully taking responsibility. I misread the situation. Yeah, that's perfect. Because yeah, that could have been I'm sorry I annoyed you last night. But you were just, you know, you were being goofy too. And so I thought that I was, you know, that's how that's how many of us apologize. And we really just end up negating or devaluing the apology by doing that. But I thought blah, blah, blah. She's saying I'm sorry. She's still sharing her experience, but she's not sharing it in a way that takes away from the apology. So he says it's fine. I didn't mean to react so poorly, but I really thought by saying what I said that it meant, please don't pour water on me. But I get you were being playful and I'm not mad about that. Oh, so she like actually poured water on him. OK. All right. One thing here I don't love when people say it's fine in response to an apology. I would say thank you for the apology. Yeah, because yeah, he's not acknowledging entirely that she apologized. Also the butt, there's two butts in this. So I think like clearly he is a little bit upset. So it's like, don't say that it's fine. Say thank you for the apology. I I really thought I was being clear. But now that I hear that, I get that you were just trying to be playful. Yeah. And you know, I appreciate the apology. I do like at the end, he's saying that I get that you were being playful and I'm not mad at that. So I think that that's actually important. He's saying to her that I don't want you to stop being playful. I like you being playful. It's just that this was perhaps too playful. OK, so she says, could have fooled me. You seemed pissed going to bed. We took a hard turn already. Well, I think this is this is actually this is proof to what you just said. I think that this entire thing could have been avoided. If instead of saying it's fine, being like like you said, just. Yeah, it's hey, thank you for apologizing. Like, you know, I did have a big reaction. I wish I hadn't had such a big one and also like I was I was upset. Because then, yeah, because she's saying here, you were clearly upset. But yeah, I obviously I don't love this response. I think if he's, you know, accepting the apology, just say like, OK, thanks, I'm glad that we could talk about this and move on. But she's clearly like, no, I want to fight with you about it. Yeah, because yeah, my if I had her in front of me right now, I'd say, what were you trying to get? Yeah, what did you think he was going to respond to that? Yeah, what were you looking for? All right, so then he continues. However, I oh, so another. Oh, maybe he was maybe she responded so quickly that he was trying to give more of a response, but she responded so fast before he finished. Oh, no, I'm actually well, we haven't read this to the audience, but I'm thinking that it's like she's like clearly poking the bear. And so he's like, all right, well, let me tell you something else that I'm not happy with. OK, I'm not sure if it's that or if he was trying to continue. That's how we'd be like, send the time stamps. All right, so then he continues, takes it another turn. However, I've been feeling physically neglected and not sexually desired by you. It's not my top priority when we hang out, but it is important to me. And when I get up way earlier than you, I was trying to say, let's do that before I'm too tired. Not that it was a waste of a night, but that was you being in a silly mood when I was in a different mood just kind of kills the vibe for me. Like, I feel like there's some kind of sexual disconnect and I aim to fix that. Like we're never in the mood at the same time, but we only get small windows to hang out. So it's like we kind of got to make it work and especially when you're gone a lot. OK, so it sounds like he was trying to push things in a more sexy type of direction and she was in a really goofy, silly mood that culminated in her pouring water on him. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not sure if this is related to what happened or if this is him just being like, well, now that we're talking about things that we're upset about, I'm going to pull up everything else, which we also don't recommend, like tackle one thing at a time. I mean, I think it's sort of a combo. It's partially a pile on because she's like, oh, could have fooled me. But I think it's also I think he's talking about the same thing. I'm thinking that, you know, he got annoyed last night because she was really goofy and poured water on him. I think what he's saying is she was in that very goofy mindset and he was wanting to be in a more sexy mindset. They had a short window of time together before he had to get up really early for work. And, you know, and he didn't know how to reconcile the difference between like, hey, I'm trying like I'm trying to send the sexy signals and you're getting really silly and pouring water on me. OK, I will I'll nitpick a tiny bit of language here. He said, I've been feeling physically neglected. I don't like the word neglected because to me that implies that it's like her responsibility. Yeah, so we pass it for him. Yeah, I mean, like she's supposed to be taking care of him. I think he said, I'm not feeling sexually desired by you. I think that's that's a fine thing to say. But I would switch. I would just remove the physically neglected. I would say something more like I've been missing you lately and I've been wanting us to be able to connect more. See how that has a totally different vibe. If somebody says to you, I've been feeling physically neglected. You're like, fuck you, dude. Or is that some real serious versus somebody saying, hey, I've been missing you lately. Totally different vibe, right? OK, let's go to her response. It's not that I didn't want to. I just didn't want to immediately because it's harder for me to get turned on and finish if it's abrupt like that. When I suggested sitting on the couch first, I was hoping to cuddle and slowly touch each other a little bit to get aroused that way, and I apologize for not making that clear. I love that she's apologizing for my first thought. She's brought it back down again. Yeah, my first thought when she said I was hoping that blah, blah, blah is like. All you needed to say is, hey, let's sit on the couch and and just like cuddle and touch each other and, you know, get each other turned on. Like that would have been super sexy. I'm thinking like if I initiate sex with you and you're like, hey, let's like take the next 15 minutes to like really get each other turned on and like tease each other a bit on the couch. I'm like, fuck, yeah, I'm in. I love that you said that because I think so many in male-female relationships. I think a lot of us women, most of us take a little bit of time to warm up and get in the mood for sex. And a lot of us feel like there's something wrong with us or broken. Like, yeah, so we don't want to say, oh, I need 20 minutes. Yeah, it feels embarrassing to ask for. But the way that you phrased it was so nice of like, let's get each other excited and get each other really going. Like that makes it feel fun and sexy. And I can guarantee if you say that to a man, he is going to feel excited and want to be intimate with you versus like, oh, I'm just like, I'm not in the mood. Yeah, yeah, because I think this is the important point there is like, that's not my default. My default when I'm thinking I want to have sex with you. My default is not let's tease each other for 20 minutes on the couch. That's not the first thought that comes to my mind because it doesn't take me very long to get there. As you know, it takes a couple of seconds of fumbling and I'm ready to go. Fumbling, fumbling around, you know, take, you know, that takes out to me whatever you want. My technique is just fumbling. Wow. OK, I back myself into a corner there. Welcome to a podcast. Bye everybody. It's not the attacks. No, I'm just kidding. On. So, yeah, that is not my default. However, if you invite me to do that and you're telling me, hey, like I want to tease you too on the couch. I am excited about that. I'm really excited. Honestly, that sounds hot to me and fun right now. As soon as I get soon as I said it's just so funny. Like as soon as I said that suggestion, I was like, damn, that sounds like fun. Yeah, even though that's not something that I'm likely to ever suggest unprompted. Because I think the other thing is that it's like if he's thinking, I think where a lot of men get stuck is they're like, they're like, OK, well, I could try to slowly start seducing her or teasing her on the couch without that explicit initiation. But like, then it's just going to seem like I'm trying to sneakily get something or like manipulate the situation. I think a lot of guys are hesitant to do that without being asked to do that. Because it's like we see all these messages of, you know, oh, like, don't like do the hug that turns into the hands going up the shirt, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so I think that a lot of guys are hesitant to do that. But if they get invited by their partner, hey, yeah, we should definitely have sex. Let's tease each other for a while. Let's not go to the bedroom just yet. Like if you just said those couple words, like so much more sex would be happening. That would be so much better for both people. Yeah, I think this is just such a prime example of the ways that we tend to miss each other. Like both of these people want to be having sex with each other. Yeah, they both wanted sex in that moment, too. They're both left feeling like the other person didn't. It's so easy for us to misunderstand each other when it comes to sex. Yeah. 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OK, I like that he said I understand like he's trying to just saying simple sentence like that helps keep things like softer and gentler. So we're getting the picture filled out a little bit here. And this is another classic mistake that most couples wait as we save sex till the end of the night and we run into these situations where he's like, I got to go to bed at nine in order to wake up at six. But we're watching the show and I would do the water thing and like. So one of our most practical tips of advice is to prioritize sex as early in the evening as possible. It's a variation of fuck first. So before TV, before zoning out on your phone, before laundry, laundry, before Instagram, like whatever you can prioritize sex before you will be all the better for that. And I know that it might sound crazy right now when you have this list of things that you know you need to do. I guarantee you you will get those things done significantly faster than you think you will if you've just had sex before. It's like it's like it's like a time distortion. I promise you there's no scientific evidence because no one's funded any studies on this. But seriously, time slows down where we get more efficient. We, you know, our time speeds up, whatever. This this we do this all the time. We're like, oh, my God, there's no way we're going to get all this stuff done. Oh, let's have sex. Boom. Everything is done an hour later. It's all done. All right. She says, my thought was we can always rewatch an episode or scene or whatever. I never assumed you could stay up late with two episodes and then have sex. I made the comment about limited foreplay to try and hint at what I was looking for because I've made comments about enjoying that extra couch foreplay before after the water thing, the mood seemed off, so then I didn't try anything. There's also a theme here, I think, where I think women have the tendency to hint at things. Yeah. And men, hinting doesn't work for men. Like they need to be more obvious than they are. We're not being clear. Whatever, who cares? Who is right? The reality is, hints are hints either get missed or hints aren't clear enough. OK, so she yeah, she's wanting a little sexy time on the couch, which I think is fine and fun. Yeah. But we've got to be more clear. Yeah. And I think this is just this is just like an upfront laying the cards on the table type of conversation. Hey, I I think it's super sexy when we are watching a show and starting to have foreplay with each other. I am not looking at that when I suggest that. Like it is not about watching the show, trying to remember the show. Like I am assuming that we are going to go back and rewatch that episode because we are going to be distracted by each other's bodies. Right. I think that's super hot and sexy, that like that like distraction kind of sexiness, right? And so just explain what that's like for you. And honestly, maybe even here's a great idea. It's almost like having a sex playlist. Think of a random show, maybe like, you know, a show where there's like a a million seasons, something that you've watched, like one of those sort of like classic shows where you only suggest putting that show on when you're looking for sexy show foreplay. Something like that, where it's like where it's not like because I can see it's not necessarily a great idea where it's like, oh, hey, the the new the newest episode of Last of Us is on. Let's watch that and then start touching each other. Right. Like, you know, there's shows where it's like, oh, I'm excited to see this episode. I can't wait to see what happens with this versus like a show, you know, like maybe a funny comedy, like Parks and Rack or something where you're like, all right, we're going to put on Parks and Rack in the background and start fooling around. So I mean, that might be a great idea. Just have that conversation. And if this is this seems like something that she specifically is really into. And it's like, if this guy can get behind this, like he's going to get a hell of a lot more action. And I think he's going to really like it because it's like, it's fun to do this. So just come up with a signal or a show where it's like, hey, let's put on the show. We don't care. We've seen it a million times. We know it happens. We're not missing anything. OK, so then he continues on. For me, it was like, why can't we do foreplay in the bedroom if that's what you wanted to do? I think we both have the same idea, just different ways of going about it. Yep. Again, this gets back to the conversation about why you like doing this, why this is fun. And again, I think this even bolsters my argument for like, yeah, pick a pick a foreplay show specifically. All right. Then he says, for me, it's like, I've already been waiting the whole weekend, which I wasn't doing it myself. He's talking about masturbating, guys, because you like me to wait. And then I see you and it's like this stuff happens. It's a little frustrating, but I'm like feeling bad for like asking you something. I feel like you should want to do too. She says, I also didn't know you waited the whole weekend. I was never told that. Again, we both wanted it. We just weren't on the same page of achieving it. Oh, yeah, I think this is this is something that I think guys are hesitant to do or say. But it's like, hey, I have been thinking about you a lot. And I really wanted to masturbate, really wanted to touch myself because I was thinking about you, but I didn't because I want to save it for you. Like something like that, like because it sounds like they're not maybe they're not living together. Yeah, I'm assuming maybe that so they have like very limited time together. I think that that is also that's another way, a more obvious hint of like, hey, I cannot wait for us to be together and be physical. All right, we got a big long one from him now. OK, all right. Well, as my girlfriend, I think by now, you know, one of my love languages is physical touch. And if I'm not receiving affirmation in that way, I'm going to tell you not to make you feel bad. But because I want you to know that just as I would want you to know if you weren't satisfied. All right, jump in. I just don't like I'm going to tell you like obviously, text is hard because we can't tell what the tone and the delivery are. That's one of the reasons why we don't recommend getting into fights. But there this just feels really aggressive to me. If I'm not receiving affirmation in that way, I'm going to tell you. I do like that he then says not to make you feel bad, but because I want you to know, like that's great. Yes, we need to communicate with each other about like what our wants and needs are. But there's just this undertone of like entitlement or sort of this. Yeah, I'm going to tell the moment you mess up on an interview. The moment you mess up, I'm going to tell you. Yeah. OK, let's continue, though. Yeah, because I mean, but he does say just as I would want to know if you weren't being satisfied, that's fair. So maybe I'm putting a weird tone on this that isn't there. But let's finish. Let's finish it. Let's see what. Let's see how it comes out. But yeah, it's constant want and need with me. OK, we're back down to no. Like this is one of the things that really frustrates me about the whole like popularity of the love languages model is people like people latched on to like, oh, that's my love language. And then so many people are like, so I deserve that. Yeah. And I told you that's my love. That's all I need. That's what I need. And you need to do it. I can be satisfied. You need to do it whenever I want it. Like no, it's OK for him to say you could say something like, I can't get enough of your touch. You could touch me all day long and I would keep wanting more. I would love you to keep giving me more and more and more touch. Like that's all fine to say. But like it's a constant want and need with me. I don't know. But we're missing we're missing the curiosity part of things where it's like, huh, wonder what is wonder what is coming up for me where it just feels like this constant need like, you know, this hole that I can't fill up. Right. Like, huh, is there maybe some personal work to do here on? Yeah, it's one thing for it. Hey, this is important. This is integral to like me being who I am. But it's like, OK, my I love enchiladas. They're my favorite food. Therefore, I have to eat them every day is the only way for me to be happy. Like if if that if you found yourself a year into only eating enchiladas three meals a day, you might start to ask yourself, hmm, might I need to maybe work on in increasing the variety of my diet? Am I maybe not getting all the nutrients that I need? Like I just think that it's like this is a similar thing where it's like this is the only way that I could possibly feel loved. The point of the love language is there are five there are five general categories of ways that we can feel love. It's not that the only way to love me is one specific way. It's that you have a primary, but that doesn't mean that you can't get love in the other ways. All right, let's continue. He says, so I knew you to be more vocal about what you want, but also just open to sex in general with no plan or outline. It doesn't always have to be measured and planned. That takes half the fun out of it for me. When it's such an easy way to show love for each other, it shouldn't feel like a chore. It doesn't to me, but sometimes I feel like it is for you. This is built up from last week when I was in the mood and you had your period. It's like I've been dying for it more than just the weekend. I can do it myself, but it's not really desirable when I have you. Oh, but OK. Yeah, this is where we need some communication finessing big time here, because at the bottom line, what he's saying is totally fine. You are allowed to want to be intimate with your partner. You are allowed to ask your partner for more frequent sex. But the way that he is saying it is just going to send her running in the opposite direction. I really don't like when I have you. Again, it's making it feel like she's just this vessel for him to have sex with. Rather than like, I want to connect with you. I know we have limited time. Our lives are really busy, but you're my priority. And I want us to be able to have really quality, intimate time with each other. That's a totally different vibe than what he's saying. Yeah, I mean, that's why we get into relationships. Like we could all give ourselves our own orgasms. You know, if that was the soul, if that was like if orgasms were the only way I felt like myself, then yeah, I might not want to be in a relationship because I want to just do it to myself all the time. But that's for the most 99.9 percent of people that is not, you know, that that's, you know, we get into a relationship because we want to be able to have that intimacy of doing it with somebody that we really love. OK, she says, I don't have a response right now and need to focus on getting stuff done. I will respond later. Have a good day. Thanks, you too. Love you. Love you too. OK, so I think this is fine. I think it's OK to put a pause in conversations to take some time to think. Of course, sometimes life happens and there's other stuff that we need to attend to. So I like that she just asked for the pause and she was specific in saying, I will respond later. You have that's what you have to do if you want to take a break. It's like I'm going to come back to this. And I would have preferred saying like a specific timeline that she would respond. But this is good. And I appreciate that both of them were able to do a pause. OK, so she comes back. We're not sure exactly how much later. But she says our sex drives are very mismatched and that's the main issue. I have a low libido and always have, but I could do a better job at initiating more. I sometimes don't notice if it's been a while because, again, I don't crave it in the way that you do, but I can try and be better about being aware of that. I'm not promising to have sex every time we're together, but I can try more. My thing is I need more help with foreplay and getting me into the mood physically or else that's when it can feel more like work. OK, I like what she's saying here. She's taking ownership. She's calling out specific things that she can improve on. She's also not like making promises that she feels like she can't follow through on. So I think this is a good message. But here's my hunch. She says I have a low libido. I don't think she does. It sounds to me like she has an issue with pleasure, with her enjoyment of the sex that she's having. Because several times now she has pointed out to him, I like us to be sexy on the couch. I like us to tease each other and get each other going. She even said I wanted that to happen. Yeah, I was hoping you would do that. So she hears where she's now. It seems like she's feeling a little bit bad about it. Like, oh, I need more help with foreplay and more help with getting me into the mood. Don't feel bad about this girl. Like that's part of sex. That's partnered sex. That's partnered sex is us getting each other excited and turned on. Like think back to when you were dating. Like that was the fun of sex is like getting each other really turned on and craving it. Right. Like we didn't just jump right into it. Like we spent all this time creating that anticipation for each other. So it's in each time that she has pointed this out, he has not had a response to that. He has not even acknowledged that. And so I think she's having the sex that they're having is not particularly enjoyable for her. And so therefore it is a very reasonable for her to not be craving it all the time because it's not. Why would you crave something that's not that enjoyable to you? Yeah, well, he did have a kind of a response. I want to go back to this because he said on. And we said, why can't we do it in the bed instead of on the couch? There was there was that. But I feel like that's kind of a that's kind of a separate. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, I don't know. That one. That one is that is what it is. But I think he was kind of saying it doesn't always have to be or no, no, he was saying, but I want you to just be open to sex in general with no plan or outline. It doesn't always have to be measured and planned. And I think that he's conflating her saying that she would enjoy teasing each other on the couch for like 10 minutes. Yeah, with a plan or outline. And I think really what he is like subconsciously, what he doesn't really realize he's saying or how this is coming off is it sounds like what he's trying to imply to her is why just want it when I want it. Like just to give it to me. Um, like I'm hard. Now let's go. Yeah. Um, and it's like, OK, yeah, I get that you're horny now. I get that maybe maybe you're hard right now. You can get horny again. You can get hard again. This is a team sport. We help each other out and get to that point. I think this is the thing that so many guys are missing. I missed this for the first like 10 plus years of our relationship to I realize, oh, OK, yeah, I can be excited now and I can. It's fine. I can lose my erection. She can help me get it back. Is I had to let go of this idea that like, oh, my God, I have the desire right now. And if I let go of it, it's never coming back. I don't know how we get this idea. But it's like, yeah, if I play back the history of my life, when I start getting stimulated, I tend to get horny. Right. And so all you got to do is put yourself in a situation to get stimulated again, and it comes right back. So I think it's something we got to get over. But again, it just gets back to. You know, her being able to express to him, you know, sounded like he was kind of starting to make some moves that were moving towards initiation. And if she were just able to express to him, hey, let's touch each other on the couch for a little while. I want to like I want to like get I, you know, I want to be like dying to be with and to have you inside of me or whatever it is. On like that's because I think also in his head, he might be thinking, oh, God, I just have to like finger her for 15 minutes on the couch. And it's like, no, like there should be something for him in that too. Like you guys can both touch each other. You can both tease each other. This doesn't have to be like a one way street. Yeah. All right. So he continues on. It's not that I expect it every time. Like I said, it's not my main objective. But I do notice large gaps of time where we aren't intimate for various reasons. But I do expect it when I haven't seen you for so long and we haven't had sex in weeks, the sexually the sexual frustration kind of builds. And I don't want to be aggressive towards it at all. That's not me. I understand that I understand getting you in the mood, but take our different work schedules into account on nights we hang out and maybe let's do it early. Hey, he's great. Rather than falling asleep in a show before falling asleep before sex, just my opinion, but I could have been more patient last night and more laughable and jokey. I just kind of am the sex version of hangry. If that makes sense. And I was irritable already having to go buy propane and shit when I didn't want to. OK, we're getting into some side conversations here. OK, again, yeah, it's this this undertone. And like I want to give him credit because I like that he said like I could have been more patient. You know, he's taking ownership here. He's not, you know, just being a complete lung head. But it does feel like again, there's this undertone of like entitlement. The like I expect it when I haven't seen you in so long. And even saying like I mean, the sex version of hangry is pretty funny. I will go give him that. But as a hangry person, as a person relates and sometimes I get the sex version of hangry, but we just have to be so careful with that. Because again, it's totally OK for him to want sex however much he wants it. And it's understandable if it feels like there's a long time going by without them being intimate. It's understandable to feel disconnected, to start to, yeah, to, you know, really want to connect with your partner. But again, we just have to be so careful about the words that we use. So we're making it clear to our partner. This is not just about me needing to get off and you're just the vessel for that. I want to connect with you. I want to have this special experience with you, right? And I just, yeah, I so I think I could have I would have loved to have been able to coach him in the moment to change the language a little bit, to make it a lot more palatable because I just don't love the way that he's phrasing it. So even and not even in the moment, like this gets back to what I said before. I think that there needs to be they need to have more conversation during the weeks or the times that they are a part where I think he should be. He should be encouraged to talk about how much he wants her sexually, how much he's missing her. Like, I think that there's a way and maybe they can talk about, is there a way that we can talk about this that is not going to feel like obligation or annoying to you? Like, can we kind of have some like dirty talk over the phone or over over text or even have some phone sex? Like where we're talking about how much we miss each other. Like, it seems I mean, it seems like there's a huge opportunity, honestly, for them to be having some phone sex on because I think that can be a way, you know, for like to for her to feel kind of teased and warmed up to. And I feel like, yeah, like he he's the problem now is that it sounds like he's saying I get sexually frustrated in these times where we're not seeing each other. And therefore, I build this expectation, I builds and builds until this feeling of expectation that I really need it when we get back together. But there's been no communication about what that is like for him during that period of time. So then he shows up to her with this, this, you know, very like entitled energy. Whereas if they were talking about it together, it would be very clear to both of them, hey, we are both really excited about having sex together once we are back together. Like they might even be able to create a plan or a sexy scene of like how it's going to look when they get back together to have sex. I feel like for her, she's talking about wanting teasing and maybe some fantasy or whatever. Like this sounds like a great win for both of them. A way to get her in the mood. Like, oh, God, like two more days, I can't wait to I'm going to walk in the door and I'm going to do this to, you know, like, I feel like there's a way to do this and set this up where they are both getting exactly what they want. And neither of them are feeling these expectations. The holiday season is so busy. And if you need a little help with food, because who has the time or the energy to think about food, you have a got to check out hungry root. I don't want to call it a meal kit service because they do help you make like pre made meals. You can things come together in like 15 minutes or less, but they have so much more than that as well. They have grocery items, snacks, salad kits, ready to eat meals, supplements, like it's literally your one stop shop. We have gotten a bunch of boxes from Hungry Root and have just been blown away by how easy it makes it to eat healthy, to personalize our food just for us to get a variety of incredible like new. 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She's set in the expectation that this is something that's going to turn her on. And he's going to get some sex at the end, too. Like win win. Since we are on the topic, I have also been feeling unsatisfied. So already we don't want to do this. Handle one thing at a time, close it out. And I would even specifically say, hey, are we done with this? Because there's something else I wanted to talk about. Ideally, I would have it at totally separate times. But if you're limited to her time, at least close it out. So I don't love this jump. So she says, I don't really feel like you're interested in what I have to say or what I'm doing. I feel like I don't get asked about things I'm doing or have done much or follow up questions to whatever I'm talking about. For example, I've seen you twice since this weekend and you haven't asked me about it at all. I want you to be curious in the things that I'm doing and what I have to say and ask rather than just telling you. And I will. OK, again, I don't like the way that she introduces but side note, women, people in general, but like really women, we love being someone being interested in us in our internal world. And I guarantee you if he showed more interest, they would be having more sex. Yeah, for sure. I think the men are much more likely to just dump like, oh, God, it's such a hard day at work and just go into it. Because I think like societally, we've kind of been validated like, oh, yeah, you deserve to get all that shit off your chest and like just kind of dump it out there. Whereas I think women tend to be more like waiting to be invited to share. And it's such a simple thing. Hey, how's your day? How is that thing you were doing? Tell me all about it and then give her permission to just start dumping it on you. All right, we got a long response from him. I have been interested in things you're doing. I've been asking about your apartment and your fun weekend. I talked to you about that, but you're also just so busy all the time with all the kinds of things to say, I'm not interested in them is kind of false, because what exactly do you mean me to comment on? I've been talking to you about everything, but I do ask questions sometimes and you make me feel dumb or give short answers. Most of the time I just let you talk because my days are all the same. But me not caring about your things, I don't think is a fair assessment. And what's to know about this week, except that you're tired from your long weekend and you're behind in work. I'm not trying to bug you with a bunch of questions about work because you just get irritated that you're behind and don't want to talk about it. And other than that, you're trying to pack and then you're leaving again for two weeks. I've been excited and present in your apartment shopping and happy for you there. Like what else would you like me to be attentive to? OK, so this is just your classic defensive reaction rather than like acknowledging, hey, you know, I hear what you're saying. I'm really sorry I've given you that impression. Like it's natural for us to want to defend ourselves. Clearly, he thinks that he is being attentive. So there are you can share that with her and say, I'm really sorry that I gave you that impression. I thought that I was being really attentive. I thought I was asking questions and give your partner that context. But then like the two of you can work together as a team to like, OK, what is it that I could do to help it help it be more obvious that I am caring, that I am interested? Yeah, I mean, you can even express disappointment. You say, oh, man, I'm so bummed to hear that because I, you know, I was thinking here I was doing a good job of doing X, Y, Z here. And I'm hearing you saying that, you know, you felt like I was, you know, missing the mark in certain areas. So I'd love to hear more about, you know, beyond these things that I, you know, know, I talk to you about like, what else were you hoping for here? You're coming at this in a defensive and not open to listen and have a conversation manner. So this is not going to be productive at all. So never mind. OK, so good. And I think it's great to be like, hey, this is feeling defensive and this isn't productive. But the never mind. Yeah, no, it's like you can't. Unfortunately, you can't do the men in black thing, like, you know, like flash, you know, the whole thing where it's like, oh, boom, you forgot the last five minutes. She says, don't say that you want me to tell you when I don't feel satisfied in an area of our relationship and then immediately tell me my feelings are wrong when I do. That's a good, good call back, girl. She's yeah, she's spot on. That's fair. She's gone on. He was being defensive. He fell into his own trap. Yeah, he wasn't acknowledging she. To be fair, she brought it up at a bad time in an inappropriate time. But yeah, I think it's I think it's OK to call. I wouldn't tell your partner you're being defensive because you're always going to hear, no, I'm not. There's nothing that's going to make someone defensive more than being called defensive. So I would have tried to cool things down a little bit by saying something like I don't want to argue about this. I'd really love for you just to hear what my experience is and to be able to validate it, even if it's different from what your experience is. OK, what does he respond? I'm asking you, what could I have been more attentive to? That's a real question. That's that's fair. I mean, he's not he's not he's ignoring the other parts where he was being defensive, but that is a good question to say. How can I be more attentive to you? Yeah, true. I know I said that was a good call back where she was like, don't you know, don't tell me to tell you if if you know, something is wrong and then not be able to take it because he to be fair, he did ask a question. He avoided the the defensive thing and she avoided the very real question that he asked. So OK. Then she says your attitude does not feel like it's coming from a genuinely curious and kind way. It feels accusatory following everything else you just said, which is exactly why I said, you know, we both had the thing of, hey, you can say all of this, but not from the perspective of, oh, no, I was asking you questions. You're wrong. It's like, hey, I hear you. That's a shitty experience to be having. I'm you know, I'm feeling confused because I thought that I did a lot of this stuff and I see that I still miss the market in certain areas. So I'm you know, I care about you. It's important to me. So what else, you know, what else were you hoping for there? Yeah. What else was missing? This is really getting at the heart of intent versus impact, which is one of the hardest things to grapple with in relationships that so often the intent that we come at something with ends up having a totally different impact on our partner. So he thinks he's being attentive and she's not feeling that attentiveness. And that's so frustrating. And it's so easy to get defensive. All you want to do in those moments is be like, yes, I was. I'm doing the thing that you want me to do. And it takes so much skill and so much practice to be able to say, I'm really sorry that that's the experience that you're having. This was what my intention was. This is what I was wanting you to feel. And I can acknowledge and make space for the fact that you're having a different experience. I think there's those words are so important, especially to the men out there. Because I think so many men, I mean, I think about this all the time, like the way that I was socialized to apologize, you know, to someone, especially, you know, as boys in like kindergarten and stuff. It's sort of like the teacher makes a determination and, oh, you know, Johnny has to apologize to Billy. Billy's right. Johnny's wrong. Right. It's like, you know, it's like jury judge and executioner kind of. And so I think a lot of boys have it hardwired into their head. If I have to apologize, I am wrong. I am a bad person. And this takes all of that away when you say, I am so sorry. That's the experience that you had. You're not trying to say your experience is wrong. You have to really mean it when you say it. And you're like, oh, I'm sorry. That's what your experience was. Like that obviously is not going to work. But you're saying, hey, your experience is important to me. And I am so sorry. That's the experience that you're having. Here's the here's the here's the experience that I was having. I was, you know, I was thinking I was being really, really good. And I was like, you know, doing a great job asking all this stuff. And it doesn't seem like that's the, you know, that wasn't the the perception that you had of that. So like, you know, I would love to know what else you were. What were you looking for? What would have felt better or different for you in that moment? All right, let's wrap it up. We're almost at the end here. So he says, that's fair. I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm sorry. I will try to try harder to be more interested in things you're doing. What? Look at this guy. That's amazing. That's fair. He's validating her experience. He's also standing up for himself, but in a way that's not like aggressive or anything. He's just saying, I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm sorry. He's apologizing and he's saying, I will try harder. Great. A plus my dude. I am curious. So he seems like he gave up on the very real question that he was trying to ask. No, I think is what else could I, what else were you looking for? They should come back to that for sure. I hope that they come back to that because I looking back at this, I think it's there's there are things that she said that cause problems or things that he said that cause problems. And I think that he did a really great thing there and being like, hey, I would love to know what else you're looking for here. He wants to be better for you. I really hope that you're able to get back to that question of what that could have looked like because he genuinely wants the answer. OK, she says, you may not be intentionally doing it, but imagine. OK, I appreciate saying that. Imagine if I came at you saying, no, we actually do have enough sex and you wanting more is wrong. I can prove we have sex because we had it on this date, this date and this date. And if we don't have it, it's because you're busy. You'd be pissed. Yes, you asked some questions, but I want you to be genuinely curious. Not just how was your weekend, but what was your favorite part of hanging out with your friends? What did you guys get up to? How did you? How do you know Maggie, etc.? I feel like the only thing you know about my weekend is the bare minimum that I had texted you during it. It's so interesting. This happens so often, like one person will de-escalate and the other person rams it back up. They've like switched roles with this. So, yeah, it's just like it's just feeling like she wants to keep fighting about this and it's just not going to be very effective. But let's get his last response here. Actually, you know what? I'm rereading what she said when I first read that first bit of the text of the like, you know, imagine if I came at you saying blah, blah, blah. When you first read that, I was like, oh, she's going back in. But I reread it and I'm actually I actually don't mind it so much. Like she's actually putting it in language that I think he can understand. Like she's flipping or, you know, she's basically showing what he did of, oh, no, I asked you about this, this, this and this and you're actually wrong about it. And she put it in the terms that he can understand, which is which is the situation of, you know, where he's saying, hey, we're not having enough sex. I'm feeling sexually frustrated. She's like, imagine if I had responded to that being like, no, we have plenty of sex. Look, here's the proof. We had sex here, here, here and here. Actually, you're wrong. But still, like he started by saying, like, that's fair. I'm not trying to be defensive and I'm sorry. So like it does feel like, like she could have said, thank you for the apology. I really appreciate it. You know, here's the impact that it had on me or here's the experience that I had. I guess I was true. Yeah, she could have been like, it kind of felt like as if this had happened. But also one thing that she does do that's good is she gets specific here. And this is something that couples get into trouble with very often is we make vague requests of each other, like something like be more interested. Like, what does that mean to you? So we have to be more specific. So she gives him specific questions that he could ask her that would feel to her like a genuine curiosity, which is great, because I know I just said, I really hope they get back to that conversation. And she just did, which is awesome. So he says it's rare that you get that in depth when asking me questions about anything. But I will try a little tit for tat. They're both doing it. But I will try to be more involved with what you're doing and be more curious. I guess I don't know much about your friends that don't live here. So I get that. But part of me just thought you would tell me all about it. But all you've been saying is that you're tired from the weekend. And so just figured you'd unpack all that later. You haven't had much time to talk to me since you've been back. We've had one walk together and last night. But I'm sorry for not being more curious. I guess I don't notice because I just don't care to talk about myself as much. It feels like a little tiny bit judgy, but OK. He's apologizing again, which I appreciate. So me asking questions is something I will work on. OK. Yeah. I mean, I I think that I see where he's coming from that it's like, you know, hey, I'm asking you, oh, how are you doing? Oh, I'm so tired from this weekend. If you said that, I would not be like, OK, tell me all about the weekend. Right. Because it seems like, oh, that's going to be more tiring to tell me all about it. No, but. The best question that you can ask your partner is just tell me more. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or yeah, what? Yeah. What happened? It's better, especially with curiosity and interest, it's better to be more curious and have your partner say, like, your partner might say, you know, I just really don't want to talk about it. It's going to make me cranky and I don't want to like affect our precious time together. That's fine. But they've still experienced that interest from you rather than you making the assumption. Oh, my partner probably won't want won't want to talk about that. So let me not ask them. That's true. You know, it might be a misunder. And this might be more of like a male thing, I'm thinking, because as you said that, I'm thinking, oh, well, she's expressing physical tiredness, not necessarily emotional tiredness. And I think that men probably conflate those two because we're not the most emotionally savvy relative to women in general. And so I think that for men, it can feel like, oh, well, if I'm physically tired, I'm definitely like not open to like expending emotional energy. And if I'm emotionally tired from, you know, whatever, like a fight or something, I'm also like, not like, oh, yeah, let me expend a lot of physical energy. And so I think that men might have that misunderstanding. They hear their partner go, oh, I'm so tired from this weekend. And he's not realizing, oh, she's just physically tired. Like she doesn't want to go to the gym or go for a long walk or like whatever. She wants to sit on the couch. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to talk to me. OK, here's her last response. OK, I don't have much of a response. Girl, at least acknowledge his apologies. Thank you for the apology. I appreciate that. Like it's OK. Didn't you know you can say like you could have just said thank you for the apology. I really appreciate that. Let's just leave this here. Yeah. Yeah. I feel complete with this conversation. Yeah. But to just say I don't have much of a response. Just it's such an unsatisfying like you're leaving it really open ended. You're not resolving anything. Well, but then he jumps in with I mean, he kind of does it for her and goes, OK, well, I'm about to go to bed anyway. Good night. I love you. I'm fine with that. I actually like that he said I love you. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I can think of is that maybe like, you know, obviously he knows her a lot better than we do. We don't even know who this person is. But, you know, it might be her saying, I don't know much of a response. Might kind of just be par for the course or like something she says a lot where he's like, OK, cool, this is sufficiently deescalated. Or who knows, maybe he's misreading it and she's going to come at him hard the next day and be like, hey, I didn't like how you ended that conversation. All right. Well, I want to again say thank you to this couple for being willing to send this to us and I want to acknowledge we're all human. We all make communication mistakes. But I hope this has been helpful for you and for everybody listening. So many little tips and insights and ideas along the way. Like I have so much fun breaking these down. So if you have a text fight with your partner that you want us to dissect, please come on over to Instagram, we're at Vanessa and Xander and DM it to us. We would love to help you break it on down. And let's tell you a little bit more about our new year, new us, 21 day relationship refresh. It's our three week deeper challenge starting this January. Deeper is our membership for couples. So like I was saying earlier, we designed this to be simple, but still very sexy, doable, but still very impactful. So at minimum, you need five minutes a day. But if you want to go deeper, you can spend way longer on it. Like the each of the activities, there's the ability to go deeper on them. So here's how it works. There are three weeks and each week has a different theme. So the first week is reflecting on 2025. What do we learn? What do we want to continue doing? What do we want to stop doing? Week two is an emotional connection refresh. So this is helping you look forward to 2026 and design the most emotionally intimate and connected year that the two of you can have. And then week three is a sex refresh. So planning out having your sexiest year yet. So each day for 21 days, you get a question to help you reflect on. So you spend a little bit of time on your own whenever it works for you during the day. And also, I want to say we designed this to be flexible, too. So if you want to do it 21 days in a row, we did that because there's great research showing that 21 days is the amount of time it takes to form a new habit. But you can also do it every other day, every couple of days, like whatever works with your schedule. So you take that question, you spend a little bit of time reflecting on it on your own. You jot down some notes with these really cute workbooks that you can fill your answers into, then come together later with your partner to share your answers, to connect, to get closer with each other. So it's just, again, super simple, but has a surprisingly big impact. Like we really picked these questions carefully to elicit the most insight, the most growth, the most laughter. I get so much fun to do together. So this challenge is exclusively within our deeper community. And we are giving you a crazy deal on deeper. It's just $99 for the quarter. That's less than one date night out for most people for an entire quarter of access to deeper or $247 for the entire year. And the challenge is just one teeny, teeny little bit of what you get in deeper. There's so much other stuff that you get access to. So head on over to VMtherapy.com slash deeper to check out deeper and the entire challenge. We seriously think it is going to be so much fun and we would love to have you join us. All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of pillow talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week. We release episodes every Thursday.