Paul Rosolie Met An Uncontacted Tribe & Is Trying To Protect Them: On Preserving The Amazon To Save All Life On Earth

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Paul Rosalie, conservationist, author, filmmaker, and speaker, is the founder of Jungle Keepers. Dedicated his life to protecting the Amazon rainforest. This took you a long time to get to this place and I think it speaks to obsession, persistence, character traits that are necessary to change the world. We're coming up on I think 150,000 acres. Wow. The Proving Government has said if we can get around 300, 350,000 acres we'll change the land designation and protect it forever. They want to protect the forest, they want to keep us safe. There was a period where I thought the mission is done. I'm 100% going to get killed because on a phone they found that them saying, you know, if you can kill Paul or JJ, do it. So explain the mission that you're on. My mission really simply, I'm focusing on the wildest part of the Amazon rainforest and trying to save this tiny little tributary that's in the tree that is the giant Amazon River basin. We're trying to save this part, this one river. And which if you tally it up, this has more terrestrial life than anywhere else on earth. So if you care about animals, if you care about the climate, if you care about undiscovered medicines or the indigenous people that live there, this place is like a time capsule. That no one's gotten to. And now the loggers and the narcos and the gold miners are looking at this because it's one of the last places on earth that is untouched. And so we're race against time trying to protect this with the indigenous people as quickly as possible. Tell me about the Namole. The, those guys have been living out in the middle of the Amazon for at least a few hundred years. They are the uncontacted tribes of lore. And you know, here's again, one of those things where when I went down there, you would hear by the campfires, these stories that deep, deep, deep out in the jungle, there are these people that are completely naked, that have no idea that they live in a country called Peru or Brazil. They've never heard of these things. They've never, in our region, there's no rocks where the headwaters of the Amazon. So it's really a clay bottom. You could go all day and not see a rock. You go for three weeks and not see a rock. So, you know, someone, an anthropologist actually said to me, he goes, you know, you realize they're pre stone age. He said they don't have stones. And then there's another view that says that these are splintered off of other tribes that they're not, they haven't been out there for 10,000 years. They're actually running scared from the rubber boom and they're just surviving as best they can. But we don't really know. And so the way that they're living is that they have bows and arrows, six foot tall bows with these giant arrows. When I've showed these arrows to people, they always go, that's a spear. And I go, no, that's an arrow. And they fire those arrow spears with incredible accuracy and speed. And, you know, for years, you'd hear like, oh, some loggers went up this river and the tribes cut them, you know, with the arrows that could go completely through their body, these huge, huge arrows. And they'd put bamboo tips that were, you know, 17 inches long and as wide as a big steak knife. And it was always somebody's uncle or cousin that had been out, these tall tails you hear. And then two years ago, we were out as directors of jungle keepers working with this very remote indigenous community. And everybody started screaming and they said, they're here. So what do you mean they're here? And we looked across the beach and it was like, you were looking through a time machine because across the beach were these hunched over almost paleolithic looking figures completely naked with their bows and arrows. And the only thing that made me think that I wasn't hallucinating was the fact that all the millions of butterflies that were on the beach that day were flying. There's all these yellow and white butterflies flying around them. And these people are approaching us with their bows and arrows. And that was another situation where you just go, are we about to get surrounded and killed? Because they've been known to be extremely violent, which is why they're still alive. Next to the Comanches and the Spartans, it's like this is one of the groups that has chosen violence. And they kind of are the original jungle keepers because the reason our river is so wild is because everyone's been scared to go up there. And so now that 20,000 acres that we just got yesterday, when I published the video of the tribes of the Nomole a few months ago, people were saying, how dare you share the image of these people and use them to promote yourself and go on these podcasts and sell a book? Well, now 20,000 acres of their land that they have no idea could be owned is protected and safe because from January and February, the press that we got for them, people have donated and we protected more land. And so now, you come up here in New York after you've been bleeding in the Amazon for years and years to get this stuff done, I had one moment at a talk, she goes, how come you as a white male is trying to say, how come it's not in Diocese? I don't know. I speak English fluently. My indigenous guys are all down there working. I'm just the communication box following what they do. And so with the Nomole, it was like, we got a little bit of criticism for publishing the images of them. And people were like, they wouldn't necessarily want this. It's like, you know what they really don't want? To have their forest bulldozed and to get killed by outside world pathogens or to be machine gun to death by narco traffickers. That's what they really don't want. Yeah, this tension between protecting them and when protecting them might require some kind of intervention to do so that might be misinterpreted. But it's almost as if the dioramas at the Natural History Museum come to life. Like when you see these people in the videos, it's really quite something. But it's also like this Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness. You're up river, dude. Whatever rules you think there are, that is out the window. Like blood meridian. And so when you're face to face with that and they have six foot long arrows with the 17 inch tip, you know, what's going through your mind? How are you imagining this is going to go? We had always, me and my friends had always joked about this. And one of the guys on my team, I was there with Mohsen and Stefan, who were both founding members of Jungle Keepers with me. And we were there just doing the job for the communities. And Mohsen was the only one among us that had kids. And when we were all hanging out, his wife had always joked. She said, if those people ever show up, you guys cover him with your body. And so as soon as they show up, we were like, we got to get Mohsen behind a tree. This man has to get home. But you find yourself starting to go, okay, if this gets bad, how fast can I run? Because you see the fear on everyone else. People who've had relatives killed by them. And you go, holy shit, this is not the cops aren't going to show up and get this situation under control. This is our tribe and their tribe with 60 feet of water between it. It's shirts versus skins with a thousand miles of evolution between them. A thousand years of living humans have said they don't need World War II countries, spoons, iPhones, Jesus, nothing, nothing. The wheel. The wheel. They don't know. I mean, it's impossible for us to imagine. No. Yeah. What could be going through their mind? Like they have no frame of reference for every single thing that we take as an assumption. Well, pull it. Yeah. So as they're coming out, again, you go, okay, can I run fast enough? Can I save my friends if they need it? You know, you're next to people that have shotguns and they're loading them up. And so, you know, that day passed peacefully. And that's what, you know, I spend the last chapter of the book describing because it's almost how could you explain to anyone, you know, the wrinkle in time of seeing people from another age and communicating with them. Well, we have, you know, DSLR cameras that we're taking pictures of and we're trying to tell them you don't have to be violent. We don't have to all kill each other. And they're still back in the Middle Ages going, yes, we do. We're going to kill your tribe before you kill our tribe because we're scared. And so, you know, we got through that day. How did that get resolved? Well, we had a local anthropologist with us who waded out into the river and kept saying nomole, brothers, you know, put down, he speaks, there's a little bit of overlap with the language they speak and the local Yine people. And it's not perfect, you know, but they can get it, you know, it's like when I speak Spanish to Italian people, it's like we can kind of get by. And they did, they put down their bows and arrows, they came to the edge and they started saying a lot of stuff. But in that was we really would like some food. You know, it's not easy walking through the forest and for 20 people or really 40, because we only saw men. So, you know, 20, 30 men and the women are still out there. They wouldn't show us their women, you know, I don't know what their rules are, but the women weren't out. And, you know, finding food in the forest is not, it's super easy if it's just me and you, we can get fish, you know, we could survive every day if we had to for 20, 25 people who are nomadic, not easy. And so they're hungry, they don't have agriculture. And so they see these people that have banana plants all over the place, and they want them. And to their credit, they didn't just come and kill everybody. They said, we would like some bananas. And so we piled up a boat with bananas and we sent it across the river and they all took the bananas. And the terrifying thing is that you can see them, you know, all taking my bananas are my bananas. It's not just like, oh, yeah, let's unload the bananas and we'll all get to them later. It was like, I grab a bunch and smack your arm away. And these are my bananas. And that's so foreign to us too. You would think like a group of people finding food would collaborate on it. Unless they're starving. Yeah, but to do it in front of each other, it was just there's something, there's something awful about that, seeing that when they, the way they, the way that they rushed in to grab the bananas, it was like they were, they were mad, mad with starvation, you know, and, and, and so we made it through that day with, you know, giving them a few gifts, rope bananas, they stole a machete, which is hilarious because machete is basically a scallop to them, you know, you can do so much more in the jungle with a machete. There's no, there's no analogous tool. You can't make that out of anything. There's only sticks in the jungle. There's no metal. And so, you know, the, the one message that we got from them is they said, you know, how, how do we tell the difference between the bad guys and the good guys, which again is, is harsh because that means they know that in the outside world, there's people that are benign and there's people that will shoot them. And they're like, how do we tell the difference between you people? And how do you explain that? You know, they said, why are you cutting down our trees? We're not the ones doing it, but they're like you people. Yeah, it's a monolith to them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, it was very, very complicated and emotional and terrifying. And then, you know, we got out of it with our lives, which is good, because then the next day they did attack and they shot my friend George with an arrow that went in through his scapula and came out by his belly button. So it went through and collapsed his right lung. And we had to evac him on a helicopter and somehow he lived, even though he spent three months in the hospital recovering, but it really drives it home like you're not. This is, like you said, this is, this is hard of darkness. This is one of the last corners of the earth where it really is that wild, where there's tribes out there that, you know, haven't seen the outside world and where, where the, the grasp of society and the rules that we all exist by don't matter. And that's a fascinating, weird reality where there's absolutely nothing but natural law. What is the current state of the union in the Amazon right now? I think it would be helpful to kind of paint the picture of what's actually going on and like itemize the various acts of terrorism that are being performed there right now. The Amazon is currently under siege. It's, it's, I mean, you're talking about an ecosystem that's something like 50 million years old. So endless cycle of speciation, these ancient trees, these monkeys and birds carrying seeds. So this thing has been developing and speciating and getting more and more complex. And now you have modern civilization where we have diamond tips, chainsaws, we have bulldozers. And so you have people coming in from Brazil, from the South, you have Peru, you have Ecuador, you have all these countries and the Amazon is tremendous. But at this point, if you look at the human deforestation across the Amazon, it's, we've lost over 20% of the Amazon rainforest. And the reason that's so devastating right now is that the Amazon produces its own moisture. And so if the Amazon rainforest keeps producing, I mean, 20 trillion liters of water a day come off the canopy, form the cloud cover, and then the rain comes back down. If we've removed too much of the trees, we lose that moisture cycle, that sacred cycle that's been going for millions of years before we got here that's made life on earth possible. We are at risk of putting the Amazon rainforest past the tipping point where it dries out and then ceases to be the Amazon rainforest and turns into the burned destroyed forest grassland where the Amazon used to be. And aside from losing species and the home for indigenous people and all the undiscovered medicines that we would have had, then we're going to throw the climate into sort of a post-apocalyptic reality. And I'm not a doomsday person, I'm a hope person. But this is like, man, don't mess with it. Yeah. From a deforestation perspective, you know, I looked up some statistics and I don't know how accurate these are, maybe you have a better sense of this. But from my research, it appears that 10,000 acres are being deforested daily, something like between 300 and 3000 football fields every single day or 3 to 6 football fields every minute, 10.3 million football fields over the last decade, which is insane when you think about that. Everyone knows, you know, the size of a football field. Exactly. And you can kind of mentally, you know, understand that. Yeah. And so that's why it's great actually to be on here today, because it's like you hear these doom and gloom things. And what I've spent the last 20 years doing is trying to find a way to have hope against all of that. And so the fact that yesterday we signed 20,000 acres, you know, how many acres are in a football field, I'm not sure, but it's probably like an acre and a half. But 20,000 of those just yesterday, you just yesterday, you so explain how you do that. So the new book I came out with Jungle Keepers, really the story of all of this from being a kid to now directing this organization called Jungle Keepers. And I still work with JJ. And he's this indigenous guy who became my mentor and taught me everything about the jungle. And we've been on this adventure together because he wanted to save his forest. And so the what this involves is us doing things like this, me going on podcasts and writing books and doing social media and telling the world that we have the opportunity to protect this place. And then people all over the world joining into Jungle Keepers and becoming monthly donors. And what I always tell people is like, for the price of a Starbucks coffee once a month for five or six dollars, a lot of those little raindrops make a flood. And so we bring in enough money to employ loggers and gold miners as conservation rangers. And then larger donors come in and make it possible for us to buy these chunks of the forest. And where JJ and I and the team have been putting together what's going to be an ecological corridor. And so we're going to save this whole river basin. And so really what what allows this to happen, what what's happening here is that an indigenous guy who had a vision 30 years ago, who I've teamed up with and then we have a few other people that have joined on and then people around the world were saving more animals than anywhere else on the planet. 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That's what Airbnb makes really simple. If you're already going to be away, you can list your space and make some extra income while you're gone, especially when there are big events coming to your area. There's a real demand for places to stay. And your home could be exactly what someone is looking for. It's one of those small adjustments that just makes sense once you see it. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. So to date, how many acres or square miles have you been able to purchase and lock down? We're coming up on, I think, 150,000 acres. And so the Proving Government has said if we can get around 300, 350,000 acres, they'll sign it into being a national park. They're like, we don't have the resources to do this. But if you guys can get it done, we'll change the land designation and protect it forever. So you're a third of the way there. We're almost half of the way there. And so this is huge. I mean, you read the stories like the going down there at 18 years old with bare feet and a machete and walking around in my jeans with no idea what I was doing. And then now at this point, 20 years later, running this major organization, we had the police flying us in a Cessna days ago where my team was looking down. JJ got to look down on the jungle. And I mean, he said, he was like, I almost cried. He's like, to see the jungle from the air. This is a guy that grew up without shoes to see how big it is that you can look to the horizon and it doesn't end. It's so reassuring. It's like a big green hug. And you go, there is still so much jungle out there. And you can see the birds from above. You see like the red macaws and you see monkeys going down in the trees. You're not high above the canopy. You hear that stuff about like, there's thousands of football fields being destroyed every minute. We're losing species. And it's like, yeah, but if we can prove that we can save this river and employ the local people in a positive way and improve things, then that blueprint can be used in all kinds of places around the world. And essentially what you do is you go to these loggers and say, hey, how do you like your job? You know, they're getting paid dog shit and it's a hard job and life is not awesome. And you're in a position to be able to, like, I don't know, double their salary or like, basically give them a better life to do the exact opposite of what they've been employed to do, to not destroy the rainforest, but to preserve it. And it's a pretty, you know, it's a, I mean, does anybody say no to that offer? No, only the, only the narcos, but they're like a different thing. That's a different, we're going to talk about that. Put that aside for now. Yeah. The loggers are usually just people that don't have a ton of money. They're working for some big company that's contracted to China on some level. And again, JJ is the key. Making friends with JJ changed my entire life. If it's like, you know, my friends in Virginia, like they wouldn't trust someone from New York if we went down there and tried to like buy land. They just wouldn't. And down on the Amazon, if you showed up as a foreigner and said, Hey man, I want to buy this piece, they would never, they'd be like, you crazy. But JJ can walk in and he knows all the local dishes, he knows all the local food, he knows all the local words that nobody even knows outside. And so he sits down with them and he's like, Oh, I know your dad. And you know that other river? He's like, Oh, I've been up there and they sit and they talk and they talk and he goes, how long is it going to take you to rip all the trees out of this forest? And they go, Oh, you know, four or five years and, you know, the trees will be falling. It's brutal. We'll be here in the rain. You know, the logging prices go up and down and JJ goes, Okay, I know some people were trying to protect this forest. We could just, what if we gave you 150 grand for this 10,000 acres today? And we protect it. And then instead of cutting it, we just pay you guys to wear cool t-shirts with a nice logo on it. And you can be part of our team. And they go, Yes. They're like, absolutely. It's about incentives. You're changing the incentive structure. And it's a bottom up solution, basically working at the ground level with these guys. But how does that operate from a top down perspective? By taking those guys off the board, don't the big agricultural companies just, you know, basically fill that role? Well, the thing is, we're working in a place where there's almost no one. It's deep, deep jungle. So when there's a couple of loggers that come out and they set up a camp, they're working for a company that owns land. And they're sending them out to get mahogany and Spanish cedar and kinea and these really, really pricey hardwoods. That's all they really want. So this isn't for like clearing it for cattle grazing. This is for the price of the wood itself. Yeah. And so it's selective logging. And so they'll come in. Now, the problem is after they selectively log it in 10 years or so, once that is removed, then you'll get people coming in and going, Well, there's really nothing here. So we'll just burn down the forest. And to a lot of people, whether it's marshland, desert, rainforest, unless there's human industry on being extracted from land, it's just useless space. It's wasteland. And so even though the rainforest is filled with species, to a person on the ground that's poor, they go, Well, if we burn all that down, we could grow papayas over there. And so like to their logic, you burn something priceless, like burning down a cathedral to like heat up a tuna melt. Like it doesn't make much sense. And then your resource is destroyed because that forest is making your clean water. That forest is providing you with fish and timber and everything else you could possibly want. It makes no sense. And so these people aren't educated, but we come in and say, Do you want 2x on your salary? And they go, Yeah. And my kid has a problem with this, but we go, let's go. So we're helping these people. We have education programs for the kids. And just giving people that need help, the opportunity to better their lives, we're seeing that a lot of times, you know, people on the, I post this stuff on Instagram, I'll post burned forest from the loggers and people like, man, fuck the loggers, like kill those people. And it's like, yeah, but these are local people that like, if you just give them a chance, they love the forest. They don't want this. The only place that they understand, they just got to provide for their families. The thing that I really appreciate about you is the fact that you do carry this incredibly hopeful, positive, inspirational message, while also simultaneously like holding the truth of the situation. Like you're not shying away from what's happening. You're shining a light on it, but you're refusing to allow that to make you like a doom and gloomer about the whole thing. I mean, it is such a massive problem. And there are, you know, so many forces at play that have to be overcome to basically succeed in this mission. And yet you persist undaunted. I mean, if you look at someone like Jane Goodall, who saw more destruction than anybody who had to worry about the chimps, she spent her whole life talking about hope. If you look at Winston Churchill, I mean, just imagine, you know, them going the day before D-Day gone, and it probably won't work. We're probably fucked. Like you can't ever give up. And that, you know, you learn that when you're in the wild, I've done these wilderness solos where it's like, you have two choices. Keep going, get out of the mud in the thunderstorm, keep going, find a way to live when you're drowning, or just die. And I feel like we're at this amazing point in history, which is actually a privilege because we were built for hard times. We as a species, and we're at this point where it's, we're very clever. We have technology, we have societies, we have really cool stuff. You can see everything in your phone. But can we transcend to become an intelligent species capable of being the steward of the planet? If you, I think the thing is the layer of our planet that we live on, I think it's only four to 10 miles of livable atmosphere. So if the planet was the size of a basketball, the livable atmosphere would be like a piece of cellophane, that thin, a couple of millimeters. We exist in this tiny little section of the universe. We are so dependent on plants and animals to create these ecosystems as the basis of our reality. And so I just, I just think that right now is the time where we can define our species in history. Either we mess it up for all future generations or we save it. And so if there's a chance you go forward, I mean, that's in life, you play the game like you can't lose. Share with us the experience of being in these places that have remained untouched for, you know, millions of years. Like basically, you've been to places where it's unclear whether another human being has even ever been there before. And you're just surrounded by just, you know, an onslaught of nature. Like how does that impact your sense of humility and your feeling of interconnectedness with everything? Like this notion that we walk around with in the Western world, in our urban, you know, kind of society is, you know, we're indoors and nature's outside. You know, it's something that's separate from us. And the truth is like we are nature and nature flows through us and we are, you know, an integral part of it. And we're not separate from it. But it's, it's difficult to kind of grok that in the way that we live our lives. And especially in the last five years, I can definitely say this, that I've spent more time in my adult life sleeping outdoors than I have in. And what you're saying about nature flowing through us, that, you know, JJ showed me this when I was very young, where he, we would dip our hands into the river, and especially in the clear streams and drink from the stream. And then he held his arm up in the sun. And you could see the sweat coming off his arm in the sun. And that went straight up and joined the mist coming off the canopy. And then you see these thunderheads forming in the afternoon and it rains back down. And then just to finish the cycle, he dipped his hand in and he drank again and he goes, it's going through us. And that's like this, this incredible physical, spiritual sacrament. So you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, this, this water is flowing through the ecosystem and through me. And, you know, we're so disconnected from these systems. Whereas, you know, if you're a farmer, or if when I'm out in the, in the, in the jungle, when that sun gets up, you got to go, it's not negotiable. And so, you know, if you're camping on the side of a river and the sun comes up, you got to go because the sand flies and the bees are coming for you. You got to get in your raft and move. And if the river goes up at night, you got to relocate your camp. If the river goes down too low and you're in a boat, that boat might bottom out and you got to stay up there for weeks. And so, to me, living by the natural cycle, sort of the irrefutable laws of nature is certainty for me. Everyone's sort of in this crisis of belief right now where they're like, what do we believe, you know, is AI going to take over? Should I be in, you know, showing my butthole to the sun every morning? Do I need peptides injected in my neck? And it's like, there's always something new. And it's like, man, there's, there's the original laws and the stones and the rain. And it's, there's this very, very, you can start from scratch and sort of build your way back up to sort of natural physical, chemical certainty. And I like that. I really like that. You said to a 1000 year old tree, the human lifespan is minuscule. Hmm. I mean, just imagine these trees that are 10 times the size of this room. You imagine those, you know, our grandparents, grandparents were, were, I mean, the constitution of the United States to a 500 year old tree. And then you do a time lapse in your head and you imagine all the monkeys racing across the branches, how many birds were going in the branches and you speed that up over the centuries. Human lifespan is like, we come in, we go out, it's like the way we think of frogs. They'll live for a little bit and then they'll, they'll, to a 1000 year old tree, we're insignificant. And that thing is watch centuries and weathered storms and, you know, you go beneath these things and you put your hands on them and you go, what, what do you know? I don't know if there's a power to them. Yeah. So how does that translate into how you think about your daily life? Like just having that appreciation and that understanding and that context? Well, I think it makes me incredibly, that's where it comes from. It makes me incredibly sensitive, especially to the natural world, to animals and whether that's in New York, whether that's, you know, you think of the sequoias and what's happening in the West with those forests and all over the world, you know, my daily life, the thing that's paramount is making sure that these ecosystems are protected, not just because we need resources from them, but because these animals exist for their own reasons. There's families of animals out there, there's herds of elephants, there's animals in the trees in the Amazon, to me, I think about this all the time, I think about this constantly. And so now it's become that I've realized that so many people, on the other end of this, so many people are going, what are, what did we disconnect from? You know, how do we get back to that? And, you know, you, I've been hearing everyone reacting to you doing episodes outside and everyone's like, we love this, you know, hearing, and I heard the birds and there's green and it's like, there's something about it that's just so, so comforting. You mentioned Avatar, the way that you describe these places and if you watch any of Paul's videos, it comes across beautifully, like it really is Avatar, like especially the canopy aspect of this, which I didn't know a lot about, explain what the canopy is, because you mentioned it earlier. The rainforest, when you're walking in the rainforest, it's like, you know, I can't even use the pen and this, like I'd have to put my hand to the ceiling, you're this big and the canopy is 160 feet above you. And there's macaws up there and there's parrots up there and there's monkeys going around and this, what you don't realize is then there's ants and termites and lizards and snakes and there's all this stuff moving around 50% of the life in the rainforest exists in the canopy and much of it never touches the ground. And so it's this world of branches and so when you're walking in the rainforest, you are this tiny thing that's restricted to the ground and these giant trees like pillars of some great cathedral are above you and then the branches and you have no access to this. Maybe there's a few, maybe Alex Honnold could climb up there, you know, I've done it a few times, but you're risking your life. And so the canopy of the Amazon is where there's undiscovered medicines where you know, scientists have been trying, I met a guy who would take hot air balloons and throw a net on the canopy and then he would jump out of the hot air balloons so that he could sample the different plants that are growing in the canopy. I know people that, you know, shoot a giant slingshot to go over the branches and then they use the ascenders to get up onto like one branch. And then they serve it. Branches, I mean, these branches are so, it's not like branches as you think of it, like these things are like, you know, as wide as like, you know, an 18-wheeler truck, like they're gigantic, I mean, width-wise, like you can walk on, they're not bending, you know, like they're gigantic. So once you're up there, it's like this whole world opens up to you. Yeah, well, that the video that I sent you, that first shot where you go to a thousand-year-old tree, I'm sitting up on a branch that's, I want to say like it's like a full oak tree, but, you know, in New York, good luck finding an oak tree that big. You know, that most oak trees are not as big as the branches of these trees. They're skyscrapers of life. And so if you're up there at dawn, the jungle just, whoa, it just starts screaming. All the animals are awake. And it's like, if you're high enough to see the sun come over the canopy, it's like the first day on earth. It's like the first Sunday, like in God rested. And like, then you see the sun come up over the jungle. And that's part of the reason that we built that treehouse, because we were like, all right, we got to share this with people so other people can see the sun come up over the Amazon. And then that 20 trillion liters of water that's coming off the canopy, there's an invisible mist river flowing over the Amazon rainforest. And you can see it at dawn if you look to the east. And so we wanted to share, everything that with me is sharing it with people. And as a kid, I felt hopeless. And that's why with jungle keepers, you know, we, we rely on big donors, but it's like, I also have mothers calling me going, my kids are horrified about what's happening to the natural world. They want to save the Amazon rainforest. And we're donors, we donate $5 a month. And so those people are not helpless or cut off from it. We're going to fix this problem. And we're not just, it's not like what I'm saying, we have to save the ocean. We're not fixing the environment. We're saving this river. We're saving this one river. And it's a defined area. And we're going to save the tribes and the trees and the wildlife now. And then if we do that, then we can work on the next project, but I'm a big believer in not getting bogged down, being upset by everything. I don't know too many people, I come home, I'm working on this one project for all this time I come home and I'll have a friend or a relative go, the world is just insane. I'm losing my mind. I can't sleep. And I go, what thing are you upset about? Don't the war and the economy and the drought and the thing. And I'm like, but pick one, what can you affect? And is there anything in your community or your family chances are there are people in your community or your family or species or a little forest, it's about to be bulldozed by a housing development or people that need help getting out of poverty. And instead of being worried about the entire planet's fate at all times, we're not built for that. We're village animals. We're not supposed to be worrying about the floods in Bangladesh at any moment. And so I think that the screens put it right in front of your face where at any moment on earth, there's a million miracles and a million tragedies happening. And the fact that we're getting it fed straight to our faces is not natural. It's fine to think global, but you have to act local. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, what is the solvable problem in my midst and amidst the incessant news cycle of fear and destruction that almost by design is making us feel paralyzed or like our lives lack agency. Yeah. And the other thing is that you're competing on a global scale. It used to like, if you're the best guitar player in your town, it's like, yeah, but you go on TikTok and there's somebody that's even better in Sri Lanka. And it's like, well, you're competing with eight billion people. Good luck. And so I think whether you're the strongest, you're the best at Jiu Jitsu, the best singer, whatever it is, there's going to be someone stronger, faster, you know, better equipped for it. And it's, I think that it almost de-incentivizes people to even start. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So I've got a whole script here, all of my talking points that I organized to do this read. But you know what? I'm just going to toss them out because I really want to talk from the heart. I am somebody who has a long history with mental health struggles, addiction, avoidant tendencies, depression and security, issues that have really derailed my life more times than I can count over the years. But the reason that I now have the amazing life that I have today really boils down to one thing, and that is the willingness to ask for help. And that is why I have turned to therapy for nearly 30 years. And BetterHelp is great because it makes the whole process accessible and affordable. BetterHelp connects you with licensed therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct. And they handle the initial matching based upon what you're looking for. 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And it has 360 LEDs, which is more than twice the number in most of the popular devices. It's simple to use. It's convenient. I pop it on when I'm doing something else like answering emails, just 10 minutes, a few times a week, that's it. And my skin just looks better or even a little more alive. They also make the iRestore Elite for hair growth built on that same idea technology that works quietly in the background while you go about your life. And right now iRestore is offering some huge discounts on their red light therapy devices. Right now you can save on customer favorites like the iRestore Elite helmet and the Illumina face mask. Just head to iRestore.com and use code RITROL. Help me understand how this became your mission. What is the origin story of Paul that led you to becoming this activist and this very hopeful but ardent conservationist so devoted to protecting and preserving this part of the world? Well, I grew up with the oak trees and the maple trees and the sycamores and going out in the woods as a kid, I always wanted to be able to drink the streams. I always wanted to be able to find a part of the woods that would just go on forever. I'd go out and get lost, go camping by myself by like 12, 15 years old. But then you'd like come out the other side of a state park. And I'd be like, man, like there's more roads. I just wanted to see a place that was completely wild. And so I went to the Amazon and I always, I grew up with this environmental stress of like, when they tell you that elephants are going to go extinct in your lifetime, that we're losing the rainforest, the polar ice cops are melting, the pandas won't screw. And it's like, that's horrible. So you're telling me we actually live at the end of days and all these amazing animals that, I mean, for someone that lives on wildlife, that loves animals, that finding a snake on a hike can make my week. You know, looking up at an eagle is just magical to me. And so someone that's that connected to wildlife telling me that the most amazing things on our planet are going to be destroyed because they're not vanishing, we're killing them. And so I went to the rainforest, I dropped out of high school after sophomore year, I went to the rainforest, because I was like, I have to see this for myself. I'd seen the videos when I was a kid of the, you hear the chainsaws and in the Congo, you see the trees going over and them stacked, these giant trees. And I was like, I have to see if this is real. And I got to the Amazon rainforest and I had the luck of going to a place that you had to travel by days by boat, pass the last city, pass the last shop, the last place you could buy a Coca-Cola, and then pass the last hut. And you go completely into unconstructed wild dream space where it's as natural as it was 40,000 years ago. And I just fell in love. It was like the first scene in Jurassic Park where they realized there's dinosaurs. And I went, oh my God, it's real. That message though, the idea that the elephants might go extinct, that we're reeking havoc and destroying these pristine places that are rapidly shrinking across the planet, is a ubiquitous message. And I want to dig a little bit deeper into kind of your DNA blueprint, because you just kind of came out of the gate wired for this. There's something about you. You are living your destiny. There's no question in my mind that you're doing exactly what you came into the world to do. From the get-go, this was your thing. You knew it as soon as you were like a sentient human being, actually. And it took a little bit to get you there. But do you think about that? It's almost like a past life thing. It's sort of like you came in already knowing this is going to be my path. Yeah. I mean, as a kid, I mean, a child, from the time I could walk, I wanted to go to streams. And so I'd asked my parents to take me to streams. And there's videos of me, five years old with my sister holding her hand as she's like a two-year-old that could barely walk in a stream, but we're barefoot walking through these streams looking at these big trees. I was just magnetized in nature. And when people cut trees, I feel it. It really breaks my heart, especially old trees. And as a kid, to me, the greatest magic in that I get this feeling when you get those, they have those big rainforest books in the library would get those out and it'd be like these explorers with giant snakes and people in the mist, David Attenborough with gorillas. And I was like, I want that. And that idea of really remote, beautiful places. And so yes, and I've always had this thing of animals magnetized. I'll be with people doing something random. I was in Brooklyn one time at a barbecue in the backyard and a parakeet came and landed on my shoulder and everyone was like, what is happening? How did this possibly happen? It's like reverse engineer it. It just knew. This is the guy I'm going to hang out with. It's weird. The times that I've been in the Amazon, it's like you don't just find a 20 foot anaconda. One does not simply. And then it happens. Elephants that should have killed me stopping and communicating with me. And it's like, I just have had this, the time I pulled a spider monkey out of the river and was able to speak spider monkey to heart. Like these things sound ridiculous. And so thank God there's video of all of it. But somehow I went down to the Amazon, fell in love with animals and then realized they can't advocate for themselves. There's this human world and 60% of humans live in cities and you have loggers and industry going out there in the Pacific Northwest and the Amazon and Borneo for palm oil, for timber, for all this stuff. And there's animals, worlds being destroyed that are filled with reptiles and amphibians and birds and mammals and flowers. And it's like avatar. And I don't think people realize what we're losing. And so to me, these are the places that are church. These are the most beautiful things that I can imagine that I'm obsessed with studying and enjoying and drinking the streams. And then I have seen too much of times where the place I love gets incinerated and all the animals and all the butterflies are dead and all the trees are laying on the ground and it's just ashes. A 30 million year old ecosystem destroyed. And then you can only see that so many times before you start screaming, guys, what are we doing? And that's how I fell into this role of being like, look, I love these animals. They have no one else advocating for them. So we're going to do it. As much as you were somebody who kind of came into the world with this sense of purpose and destiny, I think it's important to underscore how difficult it's been. This is a recurring theme in the book as well. This took you a long time to get to this place. So any notion that you just sort of went to the Amazon and started basically doing what you're doing now is insanity. I mean, the amount of obstacles that you have had to face and overcome to be in this position right now is mind boggling. And I think it speaks to obsession, persistence, all of these character traits that are necessary to change the world. When I first met you, I was with my youngest daughter who is super into nature and especially reptiles, like I had a snake at one point. And she says, Paul, she's just like in rapture, like with you telling stories. And she says, Paul, did you ever see that video like over a decade ago where that guy was getting eaten by an anaconda? And you say... Oh, I saw it. I said, I did it. Yeah, you were like, not only did I see a giant, that was me. And she like freaked out. You were like the guy. And I want you to tell that story because I think it illustrates a really important inciting incident in your kind of trajectory. Yeah, I mean, I found myself after we'd started doing research on anacondas, having the adventures first. So we're going out on 10-day expeditions, catching these giant snakes. And then I started doing a couple of interviews about the conservation, my experiences with local people. And suddenly I found myself sitting in an office at like UTA in LA. But this is after you trying to get people to pay attention to what you were doing for like a very long time. And like the struggle for the first book. Like, oh, there were so many instances in which you were like, can you please shine a light on this if you're getting nowhere. And suddenly you're in a position where like, oh, because of that short film that you made in the UN thing, like we can tell that story, you're in a position now where people actually are listening. And you can do something. And I'm also like 25. And so you find yourself in this office where they're going, hey, we'll do a show where you take us into the Amazon and you find anacondas. And I was like, yes, that would be great. I could show people the Avatar thing. We could show them these giant snakes. And that'll make them come in and watch the show. And it was like this great plan. And then we had already started and then they went, you know, that's not good enough. What if you proved that anacondas could eat a person and you made a suit and you let it eat you? Let's turn it into a reality show. Let's turn it into a game show or a fear factor situation. Exactly. And so that, you know, the sign on the line, kid, will give you everything you want. We'll just hide the, you know, and I remember asking Jane Goodall about it. I was like, but this is the only way to, and she was like, don't do that. She was like, it's going to be so bad. It's going to be a train wreck. And I went, no, I can pull this off because the snake's not going to try and eat me. And the expedition part will be more important. And yeah, Jane was right. It was beyond a train. She was very disappointed. She was very disappointed in me. And actually, we're just crushing if you know the backstory here. Yeah. Well, she helped. I mean, she changed my life. I always say like she, first of all, she's like a living historical figure. I, my parents read to us a lot when we, when I was a kid, me and my sister, my parents would read to us. They read us Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia, Jane Goodall books. I mean, I didn't learn to read until I was in the double digits because of dyslexia. And so they read to us relentlessly. And, and so I had known Jane Goodall since I was a child. And so when I went to see her in New York City, I think it was at NYU. And I gave her a couple of chapters, you know, you get to meet her for two seconds, you get a picture. For some reason, I had the audacity to give her a couple of chapters of this book I wanted to write called Mother of God. And I said, would you please take a look there in a Manila envelope with a little note saying like, just like you experienced Africa, I'm experiencing the Amazon. And days later, she actually wrote back. And she goes, these stories are incredible. Your perspective on the jungle is great. When you get a publisher, tell them, I will write you a beautiful endorsement for this. And that moment changed everything because Jane Goodall waving her wand in my direction gave me the first legitimacy I'd ever had. I don't have a PhD. I didn't have an affiliation with an institution. I just had the time I'd invested out of sight in the middle of the Amazon with my indigenous friend JJ. And for then I got to walk into places like Bloomsbury and Harper Collins and going, look, Jane Goodall says this is a good idea. And because of her that I got my first book deal. And so that changed my entire life. Without that book, there'd be no jungle keepers. Without jungle keepers, we wouldn't be saving the river. We wouldn't be talking right now. It's like you pull Jane out of the story and the whole thing collapses. She had done this amazingly heroic thing of just nodding in my direction and changing my whole life and giving me the power to protect the thing that I love. And then I went and fucked it all up by trying to be a Discovery Channel star. Yeah, but you were a punk. You had to learn that lesson. I'm sure she knows that. But you said something about how that experience with Jane Goodall taught you about the value and the preciousness of giving somebody your full attention. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. My assumption when I handed her that envelope was that she's a living legend. She's 80-something years old. She's traveling 300 days a year. She's never going to look at this. Nor should she. I was like, it's just a shot in the dark. You just got to shoot your shot. And then she did. And so now being at this point where we're running this major organization and there's thousands of kids all over the world messaging me going, how do I find adventure? How do I figure out what I love? How do I help the environment? I mean, some of them go, how do I get your job? And I'm like, kid, it ain't a job. But that sort of grace to be at the highest level and still realize that now your job is to drop a ladder for the kids coming behind you. And that, I think, is such a tremendously powerful thing. And I've seen people that do the opposite, that reach a really high level and then they think they're hot as shit. But true class, true wisdom to me is that if you have the incredible luck of doing something innovative, whether it's an achievement as a musician or a filmmaker or a business leader or a scientist or an inspiration like Jane Goodall, then your job is to inspire the next generation. And so what I try to do is every time I'm traveling, I try to go through the hundreds of messages. And there was one, it was really cute, this girl goes, I'm a girl from Ireland and you're never going to read this because you get so many messages. But I'm working to protect this local, you know, patch of forest in Ireland and we're about to do and I just wrote back and I was like, best of luck. I hope you do it. Like I did read this. And you hope that you, that you, you know, I mean, for the first few years it was happening. I went, there's no way that I matter enough to these people to, and then there comes a point where you go, oh, we're all just doing the best we can. And so then when they read your book, you become something that they want to follow. And so then it is your job to try and follow up. Yeah. And you have no idea the ripple effect of taking that, you know, 60 seconds out of your day to do that. Yeah, it's just incredible. And I think of the people that, you know, when I was a kid, the little things that people did that changed everything, you know, people are, by being, I mean, this is the fun thing about being 38, you're not 20 anymore. You know, I'm running a major organization. It's really nice to be able to be the person that, that, that, that is the positive influence that, that helps somebody up that goes, yeah, you know what you should do? I'll put you in touch with this guy. I've been in the field for so long, and it's like, we've all been burned. There's so many sharks out there. There's so many pieces of shit out there. And it's like, it's a lot of fun to be that person. I mean, I met someone, that video that I sent you, the mission thing, that guy, Dan, incredible filmmaker, he saw me on a podcast, lived in Singapore, signed up for a jungle expedition with my, with my organization, came to the Amazon, and then I was coming down the river in a boat. And I think he, him and the guy and the people, they were stranded on the side of the river, their boat had broken down or something. And we swung around and pulled up. And he was like, dude, you're the reason I came. And I was like, that's awesome. Like, cool. And he was like, no, no, no, I'm also a filmmaker. I want to show you my stuff. And my first, you know, I was like, everyone's a fucking filmmaker now, sure. And I was like, you know what, show me your stuff. And then when I saw it, I went, I've never seen anyone that's this talented. I went, I need you to come back. And so from seeing the, from seeing me on a podcast and hearing that message, and then taking the initiative to travel to the Amazon and also having the chops, he's also that amazing of a filmmaker. And now he's like, he's part of the team, close friend. And it's like, it's just amazing the connections you can make. And we live in this age where I mean, people say social media is negative. I watch, I have people that are, my friend Connor is saving rhinos in Africa, I have people in Indonesia who are working with, you know, orangutans and rehabilitating them after the deforestation. I see people all over the world doing amazing work. And I see that as a network of hope where people are people are deciding to do that. I want your feed. Yo, you got to get my feed. Back to discovery, Anacondas, you sign on the dotted line, you make the Faustian bargain to make this show and what happens? Well, we did end up catching the largest Anaconda. We spent six weeks in the Amazon. We began research that would later, we're still doing today, we learned things about the Anacondas that we never knew. And we're publishing this. The problem is the producers at Discovery didn't, that wasn't, none of that mattered. And so I really got, I mean, it's like, it's almost like it's like scripted out of a bad movie. You know, it's like, we came back with all this amazing footage and they just cut it up, ruined it. There's a part where we go 18 feet, six inches, that's how long the snake is. And they changed my friend's voice and they make him say 19 feet, six inches. They took my monologue about the beauty of Anacondas and they changed it to the time that I talked about how dangerous they were and what would happen if they bit you. And the publicated it because they, they also had called it Expedition Amazon EA. But then when I got back, they called it Eatin Alive. And so it's just in every way I got destroyed. And that's, but now here's the thing, I hit my head on the ceiling so hard. I mean, Conan O'Brien, Jimmy Kimmel, Opie and Anthony, I mean, everyone was just going, this kid's such a piece of shit, running around the Amazon saying he's going to get eaten, not getting eaten, wasting two hours of her life. I mean, everyone was making fun. Peter was going, how dare you endanger an animal? Everyone else was going, that was a waste of my fucking time. So I was on the street and people were like, yo, fuck you, Paul Rosen. I was like, I got to get out of here. So before your career had even really begun, it was over with. And this is sort of like, if this is a movie, you're at the bottom of the second, you're thinking you're at the bottom of the second act or like it's just game over completely. See, that's the thing. That's the important lesson is that at the time I thought it was game over completely. There's so many times I thought it was game over, whether it's almost dying in the Amazon or this, but this, I went, man, I picked my head up and tried to get my message out to the world and got smacked down so hard. I just went, you know what, it's fine. I'll be the guy that lives in the jungle and I'm just going to keep doing what I love and hanging out with the animals. And this was so bad that I went to India for months and then started living with the elephants, which was actually turned out to be a really good thing. And so, you know, you hear people talking about how like, if you want to succeed, like you better start loving to fail. And it's like, you're like, what does that mean, David Goggins? What that means is, is if you survive enough of those, like now, thank God that happened. You know, it builds character, it makes you more shrewd in deals. And then you realize just like on an expedition, you know, when in the old days, the mo, we'd go five days up a river and the motor would break. And the first few expeditions, I'd be like, oh, shit, man, this isn't going according to plan. I wanted to get to here and then cross over to there. And it's like, man, screw your plan. When the plan starts going to shit, that's when things are getting good. That's, that's reality sucking you into the narrative. And I feel like today we're so calculated, we're like, I'm going to go to college, and then I'm going to get a job here, and I want to get this type of a girlfriend. And I, okay, sure. But, but there's a beauty to win. And I always wanted this in life. And it was, it's like, it's like taking off in a plane, but it's like, you got to live a life where necessity pulls you forward, where you're not, you're not calling the shots. It's your, you're fully immersed as the character you are in the movie. And so I didn't know, was I going to have to stop all this jungle shit and eventually come home, face the facts and like buckle down and get a real job. And I didn't know, I didn't know what my, you know, I really, really wanted to save the Amazon. It's a going adventures, but I'm trying to remember what baseball, maybe it's moneyball, where they go, you know, at some point they tell you, you can't play baseball anymore. Like we all just want to keep playing the game. And I just up until like 32, I would say, there was a, it's in the book where there's that day where my dad, you know, I had come home from the jungle and I was broke and I was depressed because I was thinking, and he just went, man, I have something to tell you and I went, what? And he goes, you know, it's okay. We love you no matter what. And I was just like, dad, no, like please stop. And he was like, no, he's giving me permission to give up. He was giving me permission to give up. And he was saying, even if you don't, even if this is all we get, it's okay, you know, it's great. We love you. And I was like, oh no, that was great. Actually, again, that was one of those moments you go, this is a low point, but now fuck that. Like I'm going to keep running. Like, what I take from that story is the fact that despite you being earnest and well-intentioned and, you know, committed to this goal that you had of being this person in this part of the world who was doing good, you weren't ready for that yet. Like, because the person who says yes to the live TV show is not seasoned enough to responsibly shoulder like the gravity of the, you know, kind of mission that you were sort of thinking that you were on. And you had to figuratively and literally go to the jungle, you know, like to the cave, right? Like you had to be seasoned more. And so that situation forced you to do that so that you could be prepared to be doing what you're doing now. Like had that not happened, I don't think that you would be here. If it had gone your way, you might be doing something, but perhaps you would just be some kind of Jeff Probst's TV host or something. You're like, who knows what, I don't know. You would have been on it, you wouldn't have ended up where you are right now. This is what I'm saying. And I think you had to go out and earn it in a deeper way and that situation forced you to do that. So it is a really important moment. And I think, you know, it's easy to say like, oh, the obstacle is the way. But the obstacles are what like grind you into preparedness to be able to do the thing that you claim it is that you want to do, right? Like it's not on your timeline. It takes a long time. You're 14 years old, you want to do this years and years and years, decades have gone into this where you had to earn your stripes in a very real way. And there was no shortcut to being able to do that. No. And I thought the thing is I thought I had. Because I'd put a almost a decade into it. But there's always another, yeah, it's like, oh, there's a whole other level here. Yeah. Well, it's like, it's like you train at boxing for a year and you're like, damn, I'm good. And then you go get smacked down, get your job broken. It's like, now go back to camp, find someone better to learn from. It's going to take you a while. It's like, you got to show up and then now, you know, now I go, thank God that happened. Thank God. Because the scar tissue that that builds, the resilience, the confidence in yourself where you go, man, I got publicly humiliated. It took five years of going back to the drawing board, wiping the chalkboard and starting over and then sticking with it. You know, again, at that point, you can go do something else or you can sort of renegotiate the contract you have with yourself and just go, I'm just not going to stop. And that's where, you know, I think obsession is the only way to do it. And so it was to me, it was just like, I just love the jungle and the responsibility of going, well, I'm just not going to stop screaming about it. I'm just not going to stop. And so that was in 2019, that was the year that the Amazon fires were burning and everyone was talking about it. And for a few weeks, they were like, the Amazon rainforest, the Amazon rainforest, every news station was talking about the Amazon rainforest. And I had just come back from six months in the jungle and I had a video on my phone where I was screaming at the phone in the fires, we were looking for animals to save. And I was going, this is happening every day. It doesn't need to happen. This ecosystem does not naturally burn. And I was like, welcome to the fucking Anthropocene. I was so mad, so frustrated with that no one would pay attention, no matter what I did. And I uploaded it to Instagram and the next day I had like 40,000 messages, news agencies calling me. And after, I think, you know, that's years later, it was 2014 when the eating and the life thing was 2019, that then all of a sudden MSNBC was like, can we get you in the studio today? And all of a sudden I'm on a panel with Bill McKibbin talking about the Amazon rainforest and it started to heal the image of, you know, this is some douchebag who was on. It took us on. Yeah. And then, you know, all of a sudden it was like, look, no, I'm down there seeing this stuff and I could tell you for real, it's going. And now to be at this point where, you know, we just had this meeting with the jungle keepers team, me and JJ and Stefan and Mohsen and Roy, and the directors of jungle keepers. And we have the Peruvian police and the government talking about national parks. But we also have the Narcos and we have the challenge of getting the funding of raising the next 20 million dollars. And the analogy I always make is, you know, how hard is it to make it through, you know, the highest level of high school football and college football. And then get into the NFL and you're the last guy in the NFL, player number 700 or whatever it is. And you end up on the field in the Super Bowl. It's like, now's the thing. We've been through so many levels, so many iterations. We're standing on mountain peaks right now that the dreams of our past are like down there. And we're going, wait, you're telling us that we have 150,000 acres already protected and that we might actually be able to do 300,000 acres. And you go, wait a second, we might actually be able to save this thing. This might actually happen. And now it's not a joke. We have to do it. We've come this far. There's no turning back. How the hell we got here? I don't know. And so it's just, you're just running forward with your eyes closed. Obsession. On the narco tip, explain what's going on there and how it's different than when you started. When I started in the Amazon, it was so wild. It's almost impossible to describe it. Going days into the jungle, you were insulated by hundreds and hundreds of miles of jungle. You're in the middle of the Amazon. And over the last 20 years, I've seen these roads cut through the Trans-Amazon Highway, the offshoot roads. And what that's done is give people access. Usually the jungle was viewed as impenetrable. And so right as we're starting to protect this land from the loggers and the gold miners, and we're figuring this out about two years ago, if this was, you see the second act, it's like, this is the third act where we're starting to get there. This is going to happen. And we're notching these winds and running down field. And then that all ended with a gunshot. And one of the guys on my team got killed by narco traffickers. And we realized that we hadn't realized that we had this infestation of very serious criminals that now wanted to infiltrate the deep wild because there's no police out there. It's the Wild West. Whatever, if me and you get into a dispute, whatever happens, happens. It's up to us. There's no one coming. Are these at the behest of the large cartels or are these mom and pop shop narcos? Luckily, they're mom and pop shop, which is great because as we support the police, we get them boats and we help them with drones and we will pay for an overflight if they need it. The Proving Police, everyone assumes that they're corrupt. These guys are great. They really want to do good. They want to protect the forest. They want to keep us safe. And so we've been helping them. And over the last year, there was a period about a year ago right now where I thought the mission is done. I'm 100% going to get killed because they found on a phone, they found that them saying, if you can kill Paul or JJ, do it. They'll be a reward. And so I was certain that I was going to get killed. I was worried about JJ getting killed, certain that the mission was over. And then recently, one of the guys on the police team that's been going out and dealing with the narcos, he goes, you know, in a firefight, he goes, picture you playing, he said something else, picture playing tennis, one of us versus a decorated college athlete. It's like, the game's going to be quick. They're like, these narcos, they'll kill you. But he was trained to special forces. He's like, we're going out and cleaning them out. And so the Peruvian government has been showing a tremendous amount of initiative in terms of not allowing this to get worse. And we've been supporting them. Again, you have the indigenous people, you have the Peruvian government, you got this group of experts that is now the directorate of jungle keepers. And we're actually, we've survived getting the funding, we've survived the logging blitz. And now we're actually, we might not get killed by the narcos, like still to be determined, but. Do you have to travel with security? Yeah, that's the thing that sucks. In the old days, I'd be barefoot driving my boat up the river for five hours. And now I have to have five or six guys with me at all times. How are you perceived by the mining industry? I mean, there's so much money at stake with these large industries that, yeah, it's easy to point the finger at the narcos, but wouldn't it be just as easy for some kind of corporate agenda, corporate way of like taking you off the chessboard here? Because you're obstructing their goals. I don't think in our river, I don't think there's any sort of corporate thing. The mining, again, it's artisanal. It's these groups, it's these bands of people that go out and they have nothing. And so you really, you start out to protect the animals and then you zoom out to protect the forest and then you realize that if you don't help the people, you're never going to get anywhere. And so it's the same thing in Africa. These people like, I want to save the elephants. And they realize, well, the most effective way to do that is to work with farmers and their crops to make sure that these elephants aren't coming in and causing the conflict. So you really, it ends up being a human problem. Think about it. These ecosystems, they're not in danger. Tigers aren't going to just jump off a cliff and go extinct. The only reason we're having a problem is because we are causing it, our species. And that's why it's our responsibility to fix it, which is veering wildly from your question. But the point is those extractive industries are not organized enough in the wild that I work in. Yeah, my question was, is that specific to the region where you are? Because obviously the Amazon is massive. Huge, yeah. There must be areas where it isn't artisanal and it is very kind of like conglomerate driven. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And across the Amazon basin, I think it's a few dozen environmental activists get killed every year. Yeah, they get killed, right. Yeah. So it's not just narco terrorism, it's literally like corporate terrorism. It's corporate terrorism and it's like the guys on the ground. There'll be a logging company that has the rights to this land. There'll be some indigenous person protesting it and like starting up with the social media, trying to bring people attention. And they know what it is, because those people aren't that common. Take the head off the snake and everyone's so devastated, everyone's so scared. And again, you strike that cord in people where you devastate them, kill the person that was starting to make the hope. And then that usually works. You know, and so the idea that they can just assassinate is that it's happening constantly. What's the one thing that you want people to understand about the adventures that you've been on and this particular corner of the world that you think is misunderstood? I think that the urgency of saving wildlife and saving ecosystems, I think most people know about it and most people feel helpless. And I think, I mean, for me, the most important thing is letting people know that now we've created a way to include everybody in it and that we're on the cusp of making history by creating a national park and that we found a way to do the triple score. We got improving the local people, saving the ancient ecosystem and saving the wildlife. That's my most important message at this point. In terms of the sort of higher level, it's that we haven't lost our connection to nature. We've just forgotten it. And I think that we can rediscover that and that it is our duty to protect it. I think that that's what we are. It's like, I really think that, you know, it almost seems like the world is this really intense game where the difficulty is turned up to max. And the game is, can you do good? There is evil out there. There are bad people out there, but can you do good? And can you save what is good? And it's not that easy. And it is really easy to mess up. And it's like, you know, I think today more than ever, like I said, people are doing amazing things to make this world a better place. I just spoke at a wildlife conference and we met this woman who was getting pads to Africa to women that don't have period care. People that are trying to save obscure desert tortoises that nobody knows about where there's like six of them left and they've devoted their whole life to it. And it's like, as you meet these people, you're like, wow, there's so many good people in the world that are just trying to make it better. You're a master storyteller. And I think storytelling is really central to all of this. It's part of the transparency, telling the story of how the dollars are going to work to solve this problem. So that the person who is contributing feels emotionally connected to the solution and can see exactly what's happening and how those dollars are actually going to solve the problem and not paying for overhead in some office or somebody's salary. CEO salaries. Yeah. The storytelling is at some point when you've done the work, you have to share. And then now at this point, that's the other thing I would love to, you know, we've had this incredible, I mean, again, I know people that are trying to save an obscure desert tortoise and have been doing it for 50 years, incredible people all over the world. And it's like, now that we've gotten to this point, that we know the storytelling works, that we've united people with projects, I want to help other people to learn to tell that story. Because people doing incredible work. I mean, I know a woman who has devoted her entire life to saving the animals of the Amazon. And all she does is nurse monkeys back to health. And you go, man, people would fund you, forget it. And she's going, we have no money. I can't even buy food at the whole place. Go, man, if anybody knew about your work, you'd be fine. And it's like, she doesn't have time. She doesn't even understand what Instagram is, you know, it's like, let alone TikTok. It's like, but if you send that, and here's a perfect example where you take a kid that knows how to do social media and good at filming, send that kid to help this woman to get her word out. And it's like, all of a sudden, you've saved wildlife, you've given this woman's calling some teeth to actually make progress, and you've helped some new kid actually do something important. It's like, this is what's fun right now. Like, let's go, let's get work done. How have all these experiences that you've had, these unique experiences informed your relationship with spirituality? That's a huge question. I have found that there's no difference. You know, when I was young, you hear like, you know, there's like some sort of a challenge between spirituality and science. And in the jungle, they're braided. It's not any different. And I think that that sort of is reflected in the Native American vision where it's like, we're, like you said, the ecosystems run through us, we're not separate from it. And so to me, the jungle is church, the forest is church. And so that's, I think, why it, part of the reason why it just devastates me when we clear cut them, when we destroy them, because we depend on them. And so I think that there's like a really tactile way that because we are connected to nature, that it also has to be part of our spiritual makeup. And so whether I just need to be a recluse from society, or it's that I just spend all my time in church, I don't know. But it is, you know, the power of a sunrise. There's something that's so vital and ancient in us when we're in these situations, when we're on the earth that hasn't been destroyed by concrete and noise and lights. And I don't know, that's where I feel my vibration makes sense. Yeah, this sense of separateness disappears when you're locked, locking eyes with Dharma, the elephant. How can people get involved? Please, please, please, everybody go to www.junglekeepers.org. It's not like these normal organizations where you, you know, we wanted to do it. 85% of every dollar goes to on the ground conservation. The rest is admin. And we're, you know, it's five ones, three, three, we have to publish all that. We have the chance to make a national park to protect the avatar place, to protect the nomolles, whether they like it or not, let them continue running around naked in the jungle. But the jaguars and the butterflies and the spider monkeys and those millennium trees that are skyscrapers of life, we can protect this. And the other thing is the people who are helping us, whether it's $5 or $100 a month, so many of them come down and they stay in the treehouse at Alta Sanctuary, they become part of it. And so we're on the cusp of doing something truly amazing. And if we save this river, then we're going to go save more rivers. And so I just think there's so much potential right now. I hope if, you know, people can, we've talked about surviving and following your dream and all this stuff. Jungle Keeper is out. It just became a New York Times bestseller. I, you know, if you're in school and you want to know what not to do with your life, don't do what I did. If so, if you're thinking I want this guy's job, don't do it. It wasn't that much fun. But do you have a sense of how much it costs per acre to save this area? No, and it changes every time because you have a logging company. Yeah. So you have a 10,000 acre parcel of land that a logging company owns, they're going to negotiate differently with you than a 20,000 acre piece of land that's owned by some old man that's a native. And he's like, I just want to protect it. He's not trying to make a fortune out of it. And so he'll tell it to you cheaper. And it'll be like, I love you guys. And so every piece of land is different. But what I can tell you is that we're protecting almost a, we're crossing 150,000 acres soon. We have several thousand donors and that's what allows us to have boats patrolling this forest, keeping everything safe. And so, you know, it's so funny because you, the difference between being the kid that wants it and then the person that did it. And it's like, we, we wanted to make an organization that wasn't like the organizations. We didn't want to be like, when people give a doll, you go, where's it going? You give a dollar to a big wildlife organization, you're like, what, what, what project is this going to? And it's like, this is going to making rangers, gasoline, boats, tuna cans, boots on the ground. And it's like, they can come and see it all in action. And so, I don't know the price per acre, but what I do know is that, is that very small amounts of help from a lot, a lot of people are going a really long way. Beautiful man. You said, we are all eager to transform, to break free of the chrysalis and enter the arena. You're squarely in the arena. The arena is open for business for people who want to enter it. And maybe the one way you can enter it today is by getting involved. I want to, I want to be involved and I'd love to come down and visit you and have that experience. Anyway, man, a gift to meet you. Same. Incredible, what you're doing and mad respect brother. Amen. Thank you.