Fudgy vs. Cakey: A Deep Dive on Brownies with David Lebovitz

Not much further, you know. I love brownies so much. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Now. I'm David Smarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And I'm Jessica Battelana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. Today, we're talking about really one of my favorite baked goods, brownies. Who doesn't love a brownie? They're everyone's favorite baker. I mean, not to take away from you and your originality, you are a very original person. However, this is one instance where your just opinion is, I think, widely shared. Yeah, for once. A very lovable thing. And there are outliers, people who don't like them, but many people. I feel strongly about them. I feel strongly that I love them, which I hardly ever say on the show. We should start like a love and loathe list, you know. Brownies hold sort of a, I don't want to say a special place in my heart, but kind of, because it was like the first... I would hate to say that. I would hate to say that. I don't want to get all emotional so early in the day. But they were the first thing I learned how to bake. And I remember I had a babysitter. She was several years older than I was, and she probably, she was actually like six months older. I feel like we were kids, our babysitters were also kids. But she had 17, she had a subscription to 17 magazine. 17 magazine for a while had a, I don't want to say food section, but they did some food content. And there was a brownie recipe in there that I saw, and I was like, I'm going to do this. So I made those brownies a lot. And it was sort of, you know, I'm always telling beginner bakers to pick a recipe and just make it multiple times. Yes, get your epsom. But I perhaps overdid it because I made those brownies like, I mean, it was all I made. Like I would show up, I would have brownies, but I will say I made like every possible error. What age are we talking about? I mean, I was probably 12. So you were showing up where? Oh, at the library. At the library? Oh my gosh, librarians. I brought the librarians brownies because that was like my hangout. Oh my gosh. I thought the librarians were my friends. I don't, I mean, they probably were not. They just were taking pity on. Probably were. You were bringing them brownies. I was bringing them brownies, but I was like, you know, you learn the hard way. Like what happens if I forget the eggs? Like what happens if I use salt and sugar? Like what happens if I mess up the lab? Salt instead of sugar, like a cup of salt. Did you do that? Just like, I don't know if I did a cup, but I made errors is what I'm saying. Like they didn't always turn out, but I kept coming back to that recipe. And I have since tried to find that, you know, I mean, the internet should be able to find anything. Yeah. So I've been, I've looked for that recipe. I don't remember exactly what was in those brownies, even though I made them so many times, I just remember that they were my preferred texture of brownie. And here's where we're getting right to the meat of the matter. Right, exactly. She was on the cover. A dividing line with so many people. Is, are you a cakey brownie person or are you a fudgy brownie person? And I believe later in this episode, we're going to talk about the myth of the chewy brownie. Well, and here's where I do have an opinion, which I can say for later, but you know, I, I am, you know, I fall into one of these camps. And as I recall those 17 brownies, they were on the fudgier side. And, you know, there's also the question of like, do you prefer it all cocoa brownie? Or do you prefer a brownie made with chocolate? I was just about to ask you if this was a cocoa brownie or a chocolate brownie. I don't remember. Isn't that pathetic? I think cocoa. I think cocoa, but I can't say for sure. But I will say if you add melted chocolate instead of cocoa, you're going to have a wetter batter, which in turn means that you will have to add more flour, right? Because cocoa powder like sucks moisture out of something, which then could result in a, could result in a cake here brownie. I mean, that's just science. I do think that cocoa brownies tend to have a more intense chocolate flavor, which is weird. I know chocolate in them. It is weird. That's something that's sort of that can depend sometimes on what unsweetened chocolate you use in your chocolate brownie. I grew up using bakers, which is not a high quality chocolate, but you know, I love the brownies I made with it. I mean, they were kind of more sweet, not super chocolatey, because that chocolate just didn't have, it was probably mostly cocoa butter and not cocoa in that chocolate. I mean, and this is a little bit of a divertissement I'm going to take us on. But you know, if you eat a box brownie with your eyes closed, which I did recently actually, we were doing some, the R&D kitchen here was doing some testing, and they had a bunch of box brownies because, you know, of course, King Arthur has two brownie mixes, our all American brownie mix and the gluten free brownie mix. And so they had made those brownies and then a host of other mixes that are available on the market, and we were tasting them. And I was tasting them just for fun with my eyes closed. And quite a lot of brownie mixes, when you eat them with your eyes closed, don't actually taste like chocolate at all. They taste sweet. Sweet, yeah. I mean, and it's interesting you made the point about the cocoa, like brownies made with cocoa, just the cocoa butter, right? So cocoa butter, obviously, we've talked about this in our chocolate episode, it's like a key part of chocolate. So cocoa brownies don't have any cocoa butter in them. And you know, I do think that that's where some of the texture stuff comes in, because a cocoa brownie is going to be, well, it gets hard when it's cool. A chocolate brownie. Yeah, I'm sorry. A melted chocolate brownie. Gets hard when it's cool because it has more cocoa butter and butter solidifies, including cocoa butter, solidifies in cooler temperatures. And some people like that. I mean, you get this density and you start to achieve this sort of chewiness that way. I know there are some chewy brownie recipes out there that call for chilling it and eating it sort of cold, which is sort of, I don't know, I think a cheat. That's how you get to the true texture, but it is true. You get it's a much different texture, eating a melted chocolate brownie cold than at room temp or one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do think a chocolate brownie tends to dry out a little more quickly, which also tracks, you know, so. Because usually using butter, which has less water, cocoa brownies sometimes use oil. Yeah, they do. So the oil is going to keep it. Well, and all, I mean, not all, I think there's probably an alt to put melted butter and box brownies, but most of them are made with oil. And that does give you, like, you know, that texture that remains the same cold, hot. You know, so there's, there is some kind of science to that. And, you know, I think it's going to be fairly, this is a statement of the obvious. I might probably make quite a few of them on the podcast, but if you want, I mean, if you, particularly with cocoa, but I think if you want a delicious brownie, whether it's a chocolate brownie or cocoa brownie, like you have to start with good quality chocolate or cocoa, like that's going to, because there's not a lot of other stuff in brownies. Well, some people put extra chocolate in their brownies. And I think this is sort of a controversial point, you know, folding in chocolate chips or chopped chocolate at the end so that you, you know, have chips in there. Yeah, where do you stand on that? Since coming to King Arthur, I've sort of been converted to folding chocolate chips or chopped chocolate into my brownies because of the nice crackly top you get, which is, we've talked about on the show before, we, I think we had a question about that during the chocolate episode, how do you get a crackly top, shiny crackly top chip brownies, which everybody likes. Yeah, I call that a tissue paper top. Oh, that's, yeah, that's apt. You know, like, I mean, I think that's, it's, a homemade version is never going to be quite like what you get from a box where it's like really you get that very thin layer on top. But I do think it's a desirable quality and brown people look for. Yeah. And yeah, we did, I mean, I, we did talk about this before, but I don't think it hurts to say again that our, you know, our testing experience, although we can't quite explain the science of it, is that if you add additional chopped chocolate or chocolate chips to your brownie batter. At the end, you fold the man and bake them like that, that does result in a tissue paper top. And the thought is that it is adding just a little bit of additional sugar. Right. That dissolves and makes that crack. It kind of floats to the top and almost like a meringue creates like this like little super thin layer of meringue at the top of the, of the top of the brownie. Harold McGee, if you're listening, let us know what's going on. Yeah. Any food scientist, let us know. I mean, although, I mean, I mean, we've tested it extensively and that's our, and we have food scientists here and that's, that's what our theory. Yeah. But so yeah, and it's nice and it, it certainly adds way more chocolate, true chocolate flavor, especially if you're using a good chocolate to your brownie. And so yeah, I'm kind of into it. I mean, I don't, I don't need it, but more is more, you know, with me, if I'm going to eat a brownie, why not? Yeah, why not? I do also like a frosted brownie. I'm not going to go, but I do like frosted brownie. Okay, so this is where, this is really wild to me. Cause yeah, I mean, and we have, we recently published a recipe for frosted brownies that were sort of a copycat recipe of the cosmic brownie. Is that little, yeah, yeah. Never had that. I was, I was an oatmeal pie. Yeah. Not a cosmic brownie person. That's totally out of realm for me. I do not. The cosmic brownie? No, the frosted brownie. Frosted brownie. I mean, I like sugar, but like that's really guilty. You know, for a, I want to talk for a second about, so again, brownies relatively short ingredient list, but I want to talk about eggs. Okay. Because in general, a fudgier brownie is going to contain fewer whole eggs and a cakeier brownie is going to contain more. And you know, you were talking earlier about really like chewy brownies. And I have, I think there's a correlation between a chewy brownie and the number of egg yolks. Like often a chewy brownie has more egg yolks at it. Yeah. Which. And that to me is a pretty, it's an advanced brownie recipe. That has yolks. If you're separating eggs to make a brownie, I think you're in sort of advanced territory because to your point, before you mentioned that this recipe, 17 brownie recipe was a way to pull. I wasn't separating eggs. Right. I mean, most brownie recipes are one bowl. And that's sort of the appeal of them that you can bring them together with pantry ingredients. Yes. So quickly, if you're separating eggs, wow, you're committed. But yeah, that makes sense to me. I mean, again, less water, right? I think there's a lot of water and egg whites. Yeah. Removing that and keeping the fat. Yeah. I think sugar plays a big role in a brownie as well. Yes. And there's some methods that I like. I really like a brownie recipe. And this is also advanced where you simmer the butter. I guess I've only seen this done with butter. You want to do this with oil, but you melt the butter in a pan, add the sugar and let it simmer and really cook down and reduce in the pan before incorporating it into the rest of the butter. The canal house folks, their brownie recipe does this. And it's an extra step. And you let it go for a few minutes. Interesting. But you're boiling out the water in the butter. But you're also getting the sugar to a certain temp that you might not be able to get it to otherwise. Because in most recipes, you're just whisking the sugar in. Yeah. So that can contribute to a really nice chewy texture or chewier texture and also helps with that tissue paper top. I mean, that's interesting. I've never made that recipe, although I have a very clear image in my mind of that page in their cookbook where they've, because they are a good looking brownie. Yeah. I love brownies so much. But you know, the elephant in the room, always the elephant in the room here at King Arthur is flour. And brownies are actually a bake that do not really use that much flour. Like just enough to hold it together. Just enough to hold it together. I feel like it's usually half a cup. I don't prefer an eight by eight or nine by nine. Yeah. I mean, it's really relying on the eggs and the fat for structure. And that's why I think it's really like gluten free brownies are really great. Yeah. Because you're not counting on flour to do a ton of the, you know, a lot of brownies have no leavener at all. You know, as you, you like it's sort of almost like a, you know, a flourless cake. Yeah. So if you're swapping in measure for measure or using an alternative flour, like it kind of doesn't matter that much because there's not enough. Like the flour is not doing a lot of heavy lifting. Yeah. Instead of add a little bit of structure. I think that I'm glad you said alternative flours because flour, brownies are great vehicle for rye flour, spell flour, any type of buckwheat. You can, it's hard to taste these things through all that chocolate, although I do think rye can fight through and you can get that flavor. But it's a great place to experiment with, with other flours. I believe we're going to a conversation with David Liebowitz. We are. David Liebowitz, of course, is just like, I mean, he's such a star baker. He was for a long time, the pastry chef at Chépe-nise. He has written, gosh, I don't know. I don't know how many cookbooks, but quite a few cookbooks. Some classics. Yeah. I mean, for dessert, which was just reissued. We use his ice cream book in our house. Ice cream book. He's the author of My Paris Kitchen, which is a very funny recipe memoir about moving to Paris and his life there. But just like a really generous and smart baker and he has a lot of thoughts about brownies. And it was interesting also to talk to him about, like, are brownies a thing in Paris? So, super fun conversation and I'm really glad he was able to join us. Can't wait. When we were talking about this episode and thinking about who to have come on, I was like, we got to have David because, you know, I mean, I think you have such a huge following on your sub-stack. Like your books are so great. You do so much of rigorous testing of all your recipes. And I know that you are a man that knows his way around a brownie. So I thought it would be fun for us to chat about that today. And one of the first things I was thinking about is, you know, I think brownies have like a very American identity, like a very American sort of bake sale identity. And only Americans can bake them. I've learned from living apart. Well, I was going to say to you because I saw you said something on your sub-stack, you know, a few years ago, I think you wrote that you hadn't had good brownies outside of the United States. So I was sort of curious about how they're perceived. You now live in Paris and there's a lot to recommend Paris, but perhaps brownies is not one of the things. I don't know. Well, some bakeries do have them and was a bakery over in my last, my previous neighborhood and they were making their brownies. And they were really not good. And I like the bakery. So I gave them my recipe. I said, hi, this one. It's really good. And then I went in there and they were like really dried out and terrible. Oh, no. And it's not an insult to anybody, but some things just have to be made in or by a certain person or in a certain country to taste the same way. Yeah. And I, you know, because I think like brownies are a thing that people have like a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in. Like on, you know, often it's like, it's the first, in my case, it was like the first recipe I learned how to bake. So I do feel, and there are other baked goods where I would say this is similar, but the brownie that you grew up with, I think sometimes like has an outsides like, you know, hold on. Brownie sort of like in theory, like it shouldn't work. It's like a very moist cake, but it's not, they're never, well, they should never be dry. They hold together when you slice them. That's another thing. They can't fall apart, but they need to be very moist and they need to be very chocolatey. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think, you know, when we talked about this earlier in the episode, like I think brownies fall along a couple of lines, right? Like there are chocolate brownies and within that there's like the subset of like ones that are made with unsweetened chocolate. And then there are cocoa brownies. And I think of cocoa brownies as being like particularly pantry friendly, right? Like I don't always have unsweetened chocolate on hand, but I pretty much always have cocoa. Well, unsweetened chocolate is actually quite hard to find in France. Oh, interesting. When I went to chocolate school in Belgium, I went to, it was a chocolate company and we used to buy their chocolate in America when I was a pastry chef. I said, how come I can't get your unsweetened chocolate here in Europe? And they go, because no one uses it here. It's very American. You know, something that I have noticed like, you know, over time, obviously you've rift on brownies like one gazillion times in your career. In your revised ready for dessert, there's a cheesecake brownie. Yes, I love those. And there's another book I have one with Dulce de Leche, which is called Coffiture du Lé. And that was something that I came up with when I was, I just moved to France. And I would see these big pots of Coffiture du Lé at cheese stores. And I was like, that looks suspiciously like Dulce de Leche. And it's not, you know, it's made with cow's milk rather than goat's milk, which is infinitely better, which I think is the original, but I'm not 100% sure. But I was like, I'm going to bake these in brownies and see how it turns out. It was amazing. You dollop it on top? Yeah. So that's, I was going to ask you like, what are some ways to sort of like elevate a brownie without making them fussy? That's a very good one. I think mixins, you know, thin mints are really good. I too love thin mints. I have a recipe in my chocolate book that's coming out for the candied cocoa nibs that are like really crunchy. Yeah. If you put them on top, they get like, they provide this like crunchy crackly crust. Oh yeah. So I think, you know, experiment, I like to add things to brownies. I like chocolate chips in them. I like cocoa nibs. I like nuts. You've written a little bit about, you know, whatever brownie formula you're following, just the importance of sort of like watching those brownies in the oven like a hawk and taking them out. So let's talk about that. Like how do you know when your brownies done? What should you be going for? Because I do think an over baked brownie is a terrible thing. Well, Michael Rakuti, who's a chocolatier in the San Francisco Bay area, who's a wonderful chocolatier and baker, he told me once, like always take like chocolate desserts out like five or 10 minutes before the recipe says. Oh, interesting. Interesting. And that's not an exact quote, but it's to that effect. Yeah. I always tell people, you know, like when you see a recipe says bake for 25 minutes, your oven's going to be different than mine. I have two different ovens and they're both given I've got some albeders and both they bake very differently. Yeah. So, you know, I, I'm like go by texture, touch it, but also make the same recipe over and over again. You're like, you know, they're burnt. Okay. How can I fix this? Have you served American style brownies to your French friends and are they just like, we're not into it? Or did they like them? No, people like them. The great thing when it's getting about brownies is you have the ingredients and they can be in the oven literally in 15 minutes and serveable, you know, within the hour. Yeah. So they're very easy to make and they're, who doesn't love chocolate? I know. Unfortunately, little by little French people are getting more used to American foods or, you know, for better or worse. For better or worse? Jinx. I do know it's interesting. Something like 83% of restaurants in France now have a hamburger on the menu. Oh, wow. And that's not fast food restaurants. That's all restaurants. All restaurants. Well, a brownie is sure to follow, you know, it's just a few steps behind maybe. I don't know. Well, you know, basically, you know, brownie is a ghetto chocolade. Yeah. A friend of mine who lives, I'm going to see him also on my website. I have a recipe for my friend, my friend Ellen's brownies. She made them for me when I was down in, they lived near Angoulême. And I was like, oh, these are really delicious. They sort of broke the rules for what a brownie is supposed to be, but they were delicious. So I put the recipe up and they're thin. It's basically a thin chocolate cake batter, but it's somebody's interpretation of brownies. So if you had to eat one brownie for the rest of your days, which of your recipes would you choose? That's a really good question. Probably the Kate and Dave's ones that's in my chocolate book, just because it's a very basic brownie. But it's really, they're really, really good. I'm excited to try the recipe. I think I have made lots of your recipes over the years. I love them. Some of them have become mainstays of our life, including, I know I've told you this before, but your bourbon chocolate pecan pie is a mainstay at Thanksgiving. I've made your salted caramel sauce more times than I can count. They're just, you're a total, a gem of a baker, a gem of a person. And I'm excited to see the revised great book of chocolate. Well, it's always a treat to talk to you. I'm sorry we only get to do it once every 12 years. The latest updated version of the great book of chocolate will be out May 5th. People can find you on DavidLieberwitz.substack.com. We'll put links to all of that in the show notes. And everyone should go and make the Dave and Kate's brownies. And I want to just give a shout out to King Arthur, who has done an amazing job over the years, just promoting bakers, helping bakers, being a very aware company as well. And making sure, you know, keeping holding people together through baking, which is so important now, especially nowadays when things have become fractured. Baking is something that really brings people together and is a joyful activity. But it's also, and I hate to use the word because it sounds like a cliche, but nourishes our soul. But it's true. So thank you, King Arthur, for, and everybody there, for being such good people, and helping people become better bakers. You're the best. You're the best. I'm gonna cry. I know. Hand me the tissues. No. We appreciate you, and I think we share that sentiment. Thank you, and let's talk again soon. I'm Shilpa Oskokovic. And I'm Jazzy Sepcek. And we're the hosts of the Bon Appetit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers. Jazzy and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive, and we love to talk about all the hows and why's and what didn't works that come with it. Every month we publish a recipe on Bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have, and we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. So consider this your official invitation. Come join the BA Bake Club. New episodes on the first Tuesday of every month wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking. Our Spiced Brownies. They're de la brownies. And they're de la is just... Okay, at least I got you de la. Listeners just turned off the podcast. You know what I also like to do to my brownies is, you know, and chocolate chip cookies, but sprinkle them with a little flaky salt at the end, and Curious Spice Company has that delicious Cypress salt, you know, the big flake, which is a really nice finishing touch. Why is salt and chocolate so great together? We should talk about that on a future episode. You can find lots of Curious Spice Company spices at KingArthurBaking.com, and of course you can find their full collection at CuriousSpice.com. C-U-R-I-O-Spice.com. This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic. And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. So you can add them to your pancake batter, you can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course you can use them to top a frosted cake. Yeah, or a brownie. Or a brownie. There's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it. I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this. Supernatural sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at KingArthurBaking.com, and the full line is available at SupernaturalKitchen.com. This episode is brought to you by our best-selling gluten-free fudge brownie mix. And here's a little secret for you, David. This is my favorite brownie mix, despite the fact that I am not gluten-free. And I'm not alone. People love these brownies, no matter their dietary preferences. They're fudgy, tender, super decadent, easy enough for my 12-year-old to make them. It's the thing he always requests that I bring back. I have a little secret, you know, because I am not gluten-free, I do like to hack this mix a little bit. I know, you do. So, you know, I'm just going to offer my tip, which is that I like to add a couple of tablespoons of all-purpose flour to our gluten-free brownie mix, which I think gives it, for me, the ultimate texture. So, you know, people might want to try that, but they're also perfect as written if you are following a gluten-free diet. There really is a cult around these brownies. They're great. My sister is gluten-free, and she... Oh, sorry, gluten-free. We got some comments on my pronunciation of gluten. It's a T, not a D. Yeah, right. And she and her friends are now obsessed with this brownie. And like you said, those who eat gluten and those who do not, they all love this brownie. Yeah, it's a great brownie. And you can find the mix on our website, but it's also available on grocery store shelves around the country. The Blue Box. The Blue Box. Yeah. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingArthurbaking.com forward slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it all on the show. That's kingArthurbaking.com forward slash podcast. And of course, if you simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to us at our Bakers Hotline, be a phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingArthurbaking.com slash bakers-hotline, that's slash bakers-hotline, or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in B-A-K-E. Let's hear our brownie questions. Hi, this is Julie from Winchester, Massachusetts. I prefer fudgy brownies, but I don't like them when they're kind of raw inside. What makes a brownie more fudgy versus cakey? Okay. You know, I mean, this sounds sort of silly at the onset. Like, you don't like a raw brownie. Of course you don't like a raw brownie, but in fact, I think a lot of people do like an underbaked brownie, and some of them are almost like molten. Yeah, they do. I don't know what the food safety on that is, so I'm not going to comment. I'm probably going to. Yeah, I mean, we talked in the top of the show a lot about sort of like what makes a fudgy versus a cakey brownie. Yeah. So I think hopefully we've answered that question. But you know what? There is one thing we didn't talk about though, which is we talked about flour, but the amount of flour does, I think, have a big impact on whether it's fudgy or cakey. And if you have a fudgy brownie recipe that you want to make cakey, you can just throw in some more flour. It will make a cakey. It will. That's true. I'm saying it will. I'm saying it will. Okay. Step this is on your face. No, I also think we didn't, I don't see many brownies that use this method anymore, but you know, if you were to treat your butter and sugar for a brownie the way that you do for a cake, like if you were to cream butter and sugar. Yes. Right. And then add in the other ingredients that you, you know, you would end up with something cakeier because you're using, you know, a technique that incorporates air. Right. So. Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain Certain I do think the question about doneness is not a silly question because I do think it can be hard, especially if you get a brownie that gets that sort of crackly top, it can be hard. The toothpick test, sometimes you insert the toothpick and then that crackly top basically wipes your toothpick clean. It can be hard to tell when it's done enough but not too done. You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie. You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie. Let's go to our next question. Hi, this is London calling from Falmouth, Maine. Love your show, especially our hometown baking hero, Jessica. I'm calling with a question about cocoa. What kind of cocoa is best for brownies? Can't wait to hear you guys chat about that. Thanks. Bye. This is a great question. When we've talked about cocoa powder before, I think in some cases there is a functional reason to use a natural cocoa versus a Dutch process cocoa versus a black cocoa because they do interact with the leaveners differently. In the case of brownies, that's not really coming into play because they typically have little if any chemical leavener added. What we're really talking about here is flavor. You can use any, so technically you can use any cocoa you want in a brownie, really. It's just going to add a flavor. I also think for me, it kind of comes down to color too. Some of these, a natural cocoa, which can be very light brown, almost reddish, it's going to give you a brownie that, to my eyes, it's not going to be that appealing. Oh yeah, just the look is dark. No, it's going to look like a pale brownie perhaps. Then a black cocoa on the other end of the spectrum, I think has an intensity that I'm just not looking for. My brownies also going to make it jet black, which again is not what I'm looking for aesthetically. You just go by looks. I'm very shallow. I'm just here for the looks of the brownie. The black cocoa gives things almost like the, I describe it as the flavor of an Oreo cookie. It is that sort of intense, almost bitter. It's delicious. I love it. I wouldn't use 100% black cocoa flavor. Well, and Alice was telling me that she makes like pastes of cocoa and eats them plain. Oh, interesting. Just to get a sense of what the cocoa is, the quality of it. I mean, and she's a super taster. But I was thinking, it's not a terrible idea for a home baker to kind of be thinking about that way because they really do have differences in flavor from brand to brand, natural versus Dutch process. Like there's going to be different levels of acidity. They will have different flavors. So her advice was like, well, figure out what cocoa you like the flavor of and let that guy do, which is, I mean, obvious, but nobody does it and very smart, I think. When I make brownies, I usually use our double dark cocoa because I feel like that's sort of a, it's a combination of natural and Dutch process, cocoa's. And I think that has a really nice balanced flavor. If you wanted something that has some of that black cocoa, our triple cocoa blend is a combination of all three. So natural Dutch process and black cocoa. And that's what I use. Oh, it is. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I just think that, and I think that's the answer. Like, well, you can use whatever cocoa you want, but a blend is going to give you a nice combination of elements of different cocoa's and it's going to add some nice nuance and a perfect amount of color to your brown. So, and if you're not, if you can't find a blend, I would say you can just, the Hershey's cocoa on that is going to be fine. Like any cocoa powder that you get on the grocery store, I think on the typical grocery store shelf is going to work in your brownie. Yeah. I mean, it'll definitely work. And I do think, like I said earlier in the show, I mean, the better the flavor of the cocoa, the better the flavor of the brownie. Yeah. You get what, with chocolate, you get what you pay for. It's true. I mean, we talked about them in the chocolate episode. It's not, it's not necessarily cheap time for chocolate, but it's also for some reason, for some people, a more affordable luxury. So yeah, you could, you can spring for the one level up of cocoa. It's going to make a big difference. Yeah, I agree. Let's hear our next question. I see some recipes for brownies that use oil and some recipes that use butter in them. How are they different and which one's the actual best version? I said earlier something about like, well, better is subjective. And you were like, no, I just, I don't, I am 100% butter. Brownie person. Yeah. With the exception of when I'm making a box mix. I actually did make our all American brownie mix the other day. I had it in the cabinet and my husband had made some gelato and I was like, well, you can't eat gelato without a carb. So I was like, I'll just make this brownie mix. And in that mix, you do have the option of using melted butter or oil. And I chose oil because that to me is the vibe of a boxed brownie. It's going to keep the, you know, it's going to keep it fresher for longer or the texture is going to stay for longer. It's going to be a little chewier. So that's fine. When I'm going for boxed brownie realness, I'm going to choose oil, but if I'm making a brownie from scratch, I've never even heard of using oil and brownie from scratch. You always use butter. I will say though, you know, that there was a, the previous question about doneness. And I will say that the margin of error with a butter brownie versus the margin of error with an oil brownie is a little narrower. Right? Like I think you have to nail the bake on a butter brownie. You can, because you're saying you can dry it out. You can dry it out. And in fact, I did this just the other day. I made, well, you know, I was going to take the fall for this, but in fact, it was my wife that over baked. So they were slightly over baked, not tragically over baked, but slightly over baked. And they, you know, they were a little dry. And then of course the next day there was some leftover and, and they were drier still. But honestly, we revitalize those with like a quick, um, hit in the microwave and a scoop of an ice cream. That's what I'm saying. Like you're going to put ice cream on it. It was fine. It's got cool cares. I mean, you know, were they a little drier? Sure. But I think the flavor of butter is superior. It wins. It wins. It's going to win any arm wrestling competition. So if this question comes up again, always butter is the answer. Right. That is the definitive answer. That is correct answer. There is no other way. Nope. Just choose butter. Just choose butter. Um, great. Okay. All right. So that's my David Pinyin, all butter and brownies, but we're not, you know, I'm not. You want a new segment? No, I don't. I'm setting up. I'm just my transition into the most important segment of all of our podcasts. Every week we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throwed ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call, Jess Opinions. Jessica, it's all about you. What is your Jess opinion about brownies? This one I think I want to have some discussion with you because I actually don't know where you stand on this. Oh, I'm allowed to speak in this segment now. Okay. Let's do it. I'm tapping you in. Uh, you know, our test kitchen worked on a recipe for something that is quite popular and it was sort of surprising that we didn't already have a recipe for it, which is brownie brittle. So brownie brittle for those who, I don't know, I've just come out of a seven-year coma, is, you know, brownie batter that's spread very thinly in a pan. And the point is to make it like a cookie, like dry and crumbly. I'm already tipping my hand. I would have said crispy. Yeah. You would have said crispy and I would have said dry and crumbly because here's where I give the Jess opinion. I hate brownie brittle. Oh, you hate it? I hate it. Oh, huh. I just think it's everything that's good about a brownie. I mean, if you are a lover of a fudgy brownie, what business does brownie brittle have in your life? I think you're getting caught up in the name a little bit too much. Well, I mean, like if someone gave you a plate of brownie brittle and said, here's dusty chocolate crumbs, I'd still say no, thank you. Yeah. Well, yes, if they said that, but they said, here's my chocolate, crispy chocolate cookie edges or my here are my thin, crispy chocolate bars now. I don't think so. I think there's something sort of addictive about them. They're sort of like potato chips. I like the texture. They're sweet and chocolatey. I think we've discussed this on the show recently. I'm really into biscotti right now. And so they're not that far from biscotti. You're really pushing your Italian first in gelato now, biscotti. We get it. You just came back from Italy. I'm Italian now. Yeah. We get it. You took a Roman holiday. Yeah, right. I did. But even before that, I was getting into biscotti. And I did the texture thing. I would appreciate if every time I got a cup of coffee anywhere, they put a little brownie brittle on the top of the, oh yeah, I would love that. Sure. Oh, interesting. I feel like sometimes these jesupinians lead me to some self discovery. And I was just thinking, do I like a crunchy chocolate thing? I love a biscotti, but do I like a chocolate biscotti? I don't know that I do. So maybe this is a blanket statement. So would you like blondie brittle? Does that exist? I don't know. Not yet. I mean, it's like a thin, we should have bent this recipe. I'm going to call the test kitchen as soon as we finish this episode and get it in the pipeline. I mean, blondie brittle, it's like a thin and crispy. Butterscotch-y type things. Oh, I think this is a good idea. I think this has legs. Okay. Sarah, Joe, how? We took a negative and turned it into a positive. We did. We did. I mean, it's a new year, new us. Maybe you should bring me into jesupinia a little bit more. I guess so. Well, what are you, if not brownie brittle, if not gelato, if not biscotti, what are you baking this week? Oh, pizza lasagna, cracho pepe. You just method acting your way through the Italian cannon. Actually, on my list for this week is, I believe this is a Swedish bake. I'm going to have to double check that. Swedish? Rossi is double checking that. Nordic bake. Nordic bake. And we have had some comments on the podcast, some reviews, which we read the reviews. Thank you for the reviews. Please send more reviews, even the ones that criticize my pronunciation of things like the word gluten. Oh, I didn't read that one. We don't. Okay. So this is a Norwegian bake. Thank you, Rossi. And I'm going to attempt to pronounce this. I will probably, but you're right, I apologize. The Norwegians are just Norway. They're at their keyboards right now, ready to write in. Go on. Salskenbola. I think that's right. That's probably right. Otherwise, some of those sun buns, these are wildly delicious. I mean, it's a soft, sweet, yeasted dough with a sort of yellow pastry cream in the middle. It looks like this very sunny looking center. Just yellow from the addition of egg yolks. Yeah. It's not a lemon. It's not a lemon thing. Where was I when these were being developed? Vanilla custard. And the recipe we have on our site comes from Trin Hanman who wrote Scandinavian Baking, which is a great book. I've made some cookies from that book and they're really good. So anyway, I grabbed one in the test kitchen. I don't know where you were. I think I was here by myself and I just grabbed six sun buns and ate them crying in the closet and it made me feel better. They are so good. We're not quite in spring or summer yet. Not in Vermont, we're not. No. And this is, I think, the hardest time of the year because elsewhere, say, one of our producers lives in California and she's all like, oh, strawberry. It's like, oh, rhubarb is old, new. Yeah. And meanwhile, back here, we're still eating root vegetables now with sprouts. So to channel some of that rawcy energy, I'm making sun buns to sort of get ready for spring. Yeah. I'm in, of course, a similar position where you're just waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting and it's not happening. And so what to do but eat more cheese. No. Yeah. There's a recipe on our site and it's... It's a spulking season. Yeah, it's a spulking season. It's a Yotam Otolenghi recipe for these. Again, I'm going to do my best on the pronunciation. It's a cheese and mint caac, K-A, apostrophe A-K. So good. And it's a bread pocket. Well, it's... How do I describe it? Why am I having trouble with words? It is a stuffed bread is what it is. And it's stuffed with grated halloumi cheese, which I love. One of my favorites, like salty. That's mixed with cream cheese, but it also has fresh mint added to it, which I think... I feel like fresh mint is like a nice sort of gateway herb right now. You can get it at the grocery store even at this time of year when there's nothing really fresh and green and it does bring the sort of vibrancy. And then they get coated in sesame seeds and pan, or end baked like that. So they are a little crunchy on the outside and they have the salty cheese. And they're fun to make and they're just like a great little snack or like side dish to a meal while we wait for spring and wait and wait. And wait. And while we're waiting, we thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. Please remember to like us, subscribe to us if you don't subscribe already. I always like when you say please remember to like us. It's like a subliminal message. And please leave a review wherever you listen, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music. Or where you watch. You know, we're out here. Or where you watch. We're out here on videos now. And leave us a review while you're there or share an episode with a friend. And remember folks, do not forget, always follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin. And me, Jessica Badalana. Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Shani is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Thanks again to David Liebavitz for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about him and his work at DavidLiebavitz.com. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.