Samin Nosrat | Crafting a Life That Nourishes You

Hey, so my guest today is award-winning chef, writer, teacher, and gatherer of people, Samin Nosrat. She wrote the iconic book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, and starred in the beloved Netflix series of the same name that really changed the way millions of people understand food. And now she's back with a new blockbuster book, Good Things, which celebrates the power of simple meals and shared tables and the essential role of community in a life well-lived. But our conversation, it's about something much bigger, life. Some highlights include a moment of unexpected rebellion that just cracked open a lifetime of swallowed emotion and sparked a new sense of self, or a surprising truth about achievement that reveals why doing the quote right things can still leave you feeling just deeply empty and alone, or a subtle but powerful shift in how you think about time that can reshape the way you live and love and work and gather in a simple weekly ritual that becomes a lifeline back to connection, belonging, and joy. These are just a few of the threads we explore, really in a conversation that feels tender and honest and human. It's about the quiet moments that shape us, the loud ones that shatter us, and the small, consistent acts that stitch us back together. It's about letting yourself be seen and letting others in, and it's about reclaiming joy and meaning and presence in the most everyday of ways. This conversation, it moves through life's big transitions, identity, fame, depression, friendship, weekly dinners, and the meaning of a good life and the healing power of sharing time and food and presence with people you cannot get enough of. It's wide open and intimate in the most beautiful way. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Hey guys, it's GK Barrie here from the Saving Grace podcast, and this week my podcast is sponsored by L'Oreal Paris True Match Foundation and Infallible 3 Second Setting Mist. So if I hadn't mentioned, I've been in my wifed up era for a while now, it's secure, it's reliable, and honestly, I've realised that's the exact same energy I want from my makeup. With 46 shades and a skincare infused formula, True Match Foundation is the definition of a reliable partner. I lock it all in with the Infallible 3 Second Setting Mist. It's a spray and it's a literal set and forget situation with zero transfer and a 36 hour makeup holds shop online or in store. ACAST recommends. Hello, I'm Rory Stewart and I'm here on Sir John Chuss's podcast, The Best Is Yet To Come. And it's an extraordinary idea because what's happening is Johnny has just turned 90, is interviewing other people age 90. It's one of the most original, interesting and bravest ventures in journalism. Partly because we're all getting older, but partly of course as you'll discover, you get a form of history depth philosophy experience that you can get no other way. The best is yet to come available wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, you know, excited to dive in. I really love talking to you last time. Yeah, I've learned since our last convol. So that you and I have some kind of weird overlaps. Oh, cool. So out of the gate, I opened up your gorgeous new book and of course it's gorgeous because it's you. And I'm looking at the photo opposite the intro page and this is old blue notebook that's obviously really well used. And sitting on top of it is a black wing Palomino pencil. Oh, I love them. And I'm like, okay, like that one choice says so much about who you are as a human being. And by the way, I'm holding up right now. This is one of my... That's a special one, that the volumes. Yeah, this is one of the Shepard Ferry black wing. I love those pencils. They're so good. There's something magical about them. I don't know why. I mean, they're just a delight in that like they look different and they feel so good, but also the blood is just a dream. Yeah. At some point I was like, I know they're expensive, but I just can't have any other pencils. I'm gonna be the exact same way. All right, we've established that we're both nerds around writing and writing implements and things like that. I was listening a little bit earlier this year actually to a conversation that you were having with your dear friend Rishi on the Song Explorers podcast. And you were talking about a moment where you were on a visit to Vassar, potentially looking at it as a place to go. Friend invited you to this Ani DeFranco concert and you heard for the first time this song Untouchable Face that kind of changed your life and let you feel deeply and expressly in a way that you hadn't in a really long time. Actually had Ani on the podcast. Oh, amazing. Just over the summer. Amazing. And we were talking about how music can change people. One of her older songs I was listening to just before I sat down with her and I was sharing how. I was hiking in the mountains listening to this song and I was just weeping as I was walking. And I'm like, this song was not written for me or to me, but it was. There was something so powerful about it. Your story of how you were moved by this one song, it just really stuck with me. Can you share a little bit about that moment and what led up to it? Yeah. So I'm the child of Iranian immigrants and I think one sort of fundamental thing that I learned as a young kid was do your homework, study, get into a good college. Like that is the most important thing. And so I really took that to heart and I did that and I ended up at a really sort of like academically rigorous school and high school, which was just sort of like made to send kids to high end colleges and universities. And at some point I decided I wanted to go to Vassar. I had a friend who had gone there. I heard about it. And so I came to my dream school and so I applied and I got in, you know, and this was this thing like I had been told like study, go to school. Like that's the thing. So I sort of like held up my end of the bargain. And then as this sort of like date was approaching of the decision of someplace to go, I think it was dawning on my family that I really wanted to leave. And my grandfather, like who, my great, nobody, in so many ways I was this sort of like, you know, like typical older immigrant child who had to like figure out a lot of things for myself. And so a lot, everything about applying for college and what college to go to, I was just, you know, it was not family guidance that was getting me there. It was curiosity at school and asking teachers and friends. And so I think if finally they were like, Oh, she's going to leave and that's not okay, like with our family culture and our values. And so my grandfather told my dad, like you have to tell her she can't go. And so we went on this, there was sort of like a, I was like, well, we got to go see the school. My dad took me to visit Vassar and he dropped me off and I stayed with my friend and that she was like, Oh, we're going to go to this concert tonight. And I was like, okay, whatever. And so it was this person, Anita Franco was singing who I didn't, I wasn't familiar with. I didn't know. And then your eye just felt like, Oh, I'm on a college campus. And so we go to this concert. I'm not familiar with this music at all. And then at some point, probably either, I think toward the end, I'm guessing toward the end, she starts playing the song, Untouchable Face. And I'm sort, I don't know the word. So I'm just sort of like trying to pay attention and everyone starts singing along. And there's a point where she says, fuck you and your Untouchable Face. And that just felt so transgressive. Because here I was just this goody two shoes, following the rules, pleasing all adults. I was like, what? We're in a chapel and she's saying, fuck you. But it just like the room filled with this energy. And so it sort of became the anthem of this trip, which sort of soured, the trip sort of soured. And while I had a really nice time with my friend and I sort of was spent the whole weekend envisioning myself there. Unbeknownst to me, my dad was sort of collecting things to use against the school as an argument. And so that when we returned, he was like, no, no, no, this place is far too liberal. You need to stay home and go to UCSD. And I kind of knew inside that if I did that, there was just something in me that I was like, I'll die. Maybe not really, but something inside of me will die. And I knew I had to get out. And so there was just this very long ongoing family schism, I guess, that happened over where I was going to go to school, which I know on the one hand sounds so privileged and like crazy to have this sort of meltdown about like which top tier school you're going to go to. But it also was the only thing that I had been told to do. And my whole existence had been about fulfilling this thing I had been told to do when I was doing it. And then at the last second, family members who had really not been very interested or curious about anything about my academic life, all of a sudden we're then going to take that away from me. And it just felt so threatening and so scary. And ultimately led to like an estrangement with my dad for the rest of my life. And so there was just this way that the song, I never said anything bad, I only did good things, you know, like, and there was this like bad word in a song. And I was sort of discovering my own capacity for anger and resentment at my parents who to me I had only ever listened to and obeyed and tried to please. And so there was a way where this song became representative of that moment and also sort of that like ongoing sort of like period of young adulthood in my life. It was a real shift for me. But I think a big part of it was like a discovery of this part of myself that I didn't know I had. Yeah, it's like, oh, there's this feeling that sometimes probably rises to the level of rage inside that's like, I've done everything right. I've checked all the boxes. Like, you know, like everything that's been asked of me, I've done. And I got the thing at the end of it that I was supposed to that was supposed to be the reward. And now it's not being offered to me. And it was like this moment in you where you're just like, this is not okay. Yeah, it was such a, it felt such a betrayal, you know, and the song was just a beautiful like. Right. It's like, I can express this. Like I can feel it and then I can actually let it out. Like that's real. That's raw. I have so many of us, I think have like those moments. Here's a bigger curiosity around this also. So fast forward, right? Like years go by, you know, like Berkeley or like going to the world of food, this stunning phenomenon salt, fat, acid, heat comes out seven or eight years ago. You end up creating something that I'm going to make the analogy. You might be uncomfortable with it that like Ani went out into the world and actually changed, touched millions of people's lives too, or at least brought, you know, moments of joy and deep connection. And I would imagine for a lot of people reconnection to people that maybe they were estranged from back into their lives. As that was happening. And I asked Ani this question. I was like, how did it feel to be somebody who creates work that does that? And she was just kind of like, in a way, it's like it wasn't me. I'm curious what your experience was of being behind a phenomenon that landed with people, that moved people like that. Yeah, I agree with that. I think I have sort of two parts of it. One is I made a book, I made this thing and I put it out in the world. And I always was pretty clear once I put it out in the world, it wasn't mine anymore. And in some ways I now feel very distant from it, you know, like I just look at the book and I'm like, oh, interesting. Like it's nice that it's a physical thing that I can look at that I made, that I can have sort of a material relationship to, you know, because I can really let go of it in that way. But also there's then the part where there's almost like some sort of like, synestarchy or something that happens in people's minds where they conflate me with the thing. And I'm sure that that in large part happened because then there was a television show around the world that they could see me and get to know me or feel like they got to know me. And so then I become this like, you know, symbol for salt fat acid heat, which is like, I'm very aware that my name, people know salt fat acid heat way more than they know my name. And I like that. I don't want them. I don't need everyone to know my name. So I am like a piece of this bigger thing. But there's a lot that gets projected on to me by people and that it has been hard for me and is complicated. And yeah, I've really struggled with partly because like I want to offer people what it is that they want from me, you know, I want to give them joy. I want to give them a moment of connection when they like stop me on the street or see me or are having a great like excitement when they like run into me in a store or something. But I also am like a person having my own experience of my body and in my life and in my head. And it's not always aligned with like being able to do that for people because I it also costs a lot for me. And so that has been a big struggle is sort of the becoming the symbol of the thing. Yeah. And I think for anybody who puts work into the world that in some way touches other people and maybe some people are totally fine with it. Maybe some people just like bring it on like I am the thing and like the more direct the channel the better. I'm more like you like I've never been like I'm like I love to create things that go into the world and the thing becomes the source of whatever it is. I don't even care if anyone knows my name. I would almost rather like they don't. So I can just kind of live in a cave. I'm just it's never been about that. And you had this this moment where you it wasn't just the book that was a thing you as a human being were the thing your life your lens the way you showed up was the thing. When we last talked you know this was had the show come out or had the book come out when I talked to you. I think the show had come out. So this was like late 2018. I remember correctly. So the show is probably pretty recently on air. So that brought a level of just exposure to you as a person on a whole different way. And back then you actually mentioned to me heading out to a cabin in the desert away from everyone just kind of get your bearings back and figure out what you wanted with this torrent of attention coming at you. You I wrote down actually what I was just listening to I wrote down you said I realize I'm not in a place to say yes or no to anything. So I'm just putting a hold on any decision making until I have quite time to figure out what makes any sense to do. I know if I don't decide to do something because I care about it in my heart I will be miserable. I'm in the opposite place now where I'm like I just want to say no to everything. Yeah. I mean I've been curious about that. Like did you did you take that space and we'll talk about some of the stuff that's unfolded in the intervening years also. But like I felt like when we talked last time you were in this window where you're like my head is spinning. There are astonishing things happening. You know coming user word coming at me. Yes it was all coming at me. Right. You know and on the one hand it's like what an incredible blessing. How can I not just like acknowledge that. And the other hand you're like how do I live through this. What was sort of like the immediate future after that like for you. I did go to the cabin in the desert and then I invited press there like there was a way where I mean not for not the whole time but there was a one one thing I let come there you know and I'm like why did I do that. There was just I'm not so good with the boundaries. I'm getting better but like I also yeah it's interesting to hear that I said it that way that I I needed the quiet because I didn't want to miss something good. Whereas now I'm like I need the quiet because I need to make space for whatever it is that I want to do. Right. Like because that's a big difference. Yeah like I need and I also just need I need rest. I came home you know I basically since August have been nearly 30 cities and I came home like a little over a week ago and though and I also was sick by the time you know I kind of you get worn down and so I was just so exhausted and so sick just like physically my ankle was sprain like everything falling apart and I was like I don't want to do anything. There's all these things like there are a few things I sort of have to do next year and I'm like cancel that. I'm like just end the sub stack quit everything like no I don't want to do anything. And as I like you know my sinus infection has sort of like gone down and a little better now like OK maybe I don't like that's not the best place to make decisions from but I'm just I have the opposite feeling now of if I say yes to things that are not like truly truly coming from deep inside of me I will regret it and in a way that was part of why making the second book was so complicated and hard for me was that on the one hand like I did want to make a second book and I had a good idea and on the other hand I very much felt the pressure of the strike while the iron is hot and sell this idea right now. And so I did do that. I actually I worked on that book proposal in the desert and I thought I was taking time because it was almost two years since salt fat acid heat had come out but it wasn't enough quiet time to get really really clear inside of myself. It's very scary. I live in such a we all live in such a like production focused world and like you know the forces of capitalism just are so intense even if you're trying to be aware of them. And on some of us more than others there's just that like pressure often from inside to produce and make and I really have that. And so it's been hard for me to be like I'm just going to have some fallow time which the world and my life sort of forced me into regardless of whether or not I was going to do it. I mean not only the pandemic but then I sort of had an extended period of like grieving and then my I had another sort of extended period of my dad dying and then like the sort of aftermath of that. So there was a lot of ways in which like the circumstances of my life forced me to stop working. I just couldn't. I like just physically and emotionally like wasn't able to. So but how nice would it be to make that a conscious choice and decide to take some downtime rather than to like be forced into it? Yeah. And I think so many of us like we don't actually do that until we're brought to our knees by something outside of us or something that's a blend of inside and outside. And we're like, oh, like I'm now I guess I have to listen because I actually can't do anything but that. I often wonder why it takes that. We both sat down with so many people who are studied and like deeply philosophical and theological and they know all the things. It's one thing to know. It's another thing to practice. It really is. Yeah. It's a different thing, especially when you have and as you describe like your whole upbringing sort of like you're brought up with a certain ethos and then you take that and you bundle it with, hey, something astonishing has just happened to you that happens to almost nobody. The window is probably only going to be open for a short amount of time. Take advantage of everything you can while it's open. And meanwhile, like there's a voice inside of you saying, but that might kill me. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like you've got to battle that and it's a fraught place to be. Yeah. And there's a whole other layer of I'm sort of internally going through this thing while externally the world is sort of observing me be a capital S success and I'm getting all of the sort of attention and praise and trappings of that that in many ways I'd always wanted that wouldn't anyone want. And certainly that most of my friends who are writers and other types of artists and creative people would give anything to have. So it felt really complicated to have a tortured relationship to it and it still does. Like I don't want to come off like I'm complaining. I'm so grateful for it. And the other thing I didn't get to say when you asked about like how do I feel about having made this thing and the people's response to it. Like some of the best moments, like it's I don't have the ability to sit back and look at like what I've done for the world and like think about it in a sort of zoom out 30,000. I can't do that. That would not be good for my mind or my ego or anything. But there are these little glimpses and these little moments that I get to have when people come up to me and I'm in a receptive place. And especially when it's like any sort of type of like marginalized person who often says something about like what not only the work has meant to them, but seeing me has meant to them. And that often is like the most sort of fulfilling part like thing response type of response that I can have and gives me the best feeling about like, wow, this feels really good because I know I didn't get to see somebody like me for my whole life. And so that's something I'm really proud of is that I get to be visible for people who don't feel seen. Yeah. I mean, I'm pardoning wonders at the same time. Like I hear that and like that must feel really incredible inside. I wonder if there's another voice set sometimes at companies that says especially for like as you described, like if you start to become seen as the model representative for a marginalized person, is there a sense of responsibility that then you step into, well, I've got to behave in a certain way. I've got to show up in a certain way because now people are looking to me to see like how to stand in this moment, what's possible and what if I fall? Yeah, I definitely feel that. I feel that just in tiny ways. Like I basically put on a cloak when I leave my home like a some sort of protective cloak of like not only like my energy force field, but also just I kind of know there's like a subconscious sort of like switch that clicks of like, I don't know, you can't throw a tantrum in public. You can't be grumpy at the coffee store. Like you can't, I can't cut people off in traffic. Not that I'm always trying to do or whatever, but like you sort of, I just am very aware that it means something, you know, like my girlfriend and I will be driving and she's always like, you're driving like a grandma. And I was like, and she's like, make a U-turn, take that parking spot. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, I was like, I can't do that. Like I can't make an illegal U-turn in the middle of the street. Like someone will see me out. I was like, no, no, no, there's just a sense that I can't do that. I can't be that way, which I'm like, it's not an unfamiliar sense to me. It's just amplified. Yeah. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. In a world of noise and uncertainty, IG is the investment platform that backs you. Take a flexible stocks, ISA, which gives you the freedom to withdraw funds anytime and replace them in the same tax year, all without losing your £20,000 tax-free allowance. And if that's not enough, pay no commission on your stock shares and ETFs when you invest with IG. IG, trade, invest, progress. Your capital's at risk. Other fees may apply. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and is subject to change. You turned your dating app for pets into a business, which just turned over its first billion. You turned around the fortunes of a failing football club, politely turned down a Nobel Peace Prize, and turned up on Mars in your own reusable rocket. Are struggling to turn on the dishwasher? There's more to imagine when you listen. Discover business development titles on Audible. Subscription requires the audible.co.uk for terms. ACAST recommends. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where you are on the planet. This is Bill Nye at Ill-Advised by Bill Nye to announce season two. Yeah, there's a season two, so get ready and think what to wear, and I'll attempt to answer more of your questions without actually making things worse. I will be recommending books and playlists. If you're looking for a way to waste time, squander time, put the kettle on, because season two of Ill-Advised is back. Calm down. So, the pandemic hits. As you shared, your dad also drops into illness and eventually passes. Kind of weaving through this same season-ish, you also start to realize that you're looking back at your life, especially your very early life, and realizing there's a lot of anger in the house, and there is a lot of probably grief that you didn't realize for an older sister that had died very young when you didn't really have any memories as an adult, but you're starting to realize maybe actually there was something there for me that I'm just not processed. So, there's this soup of disruption, grief, and loss that's just perpetually being stirred with you. Then the pandemic makes it hard to process and be with people during this whole thing. For you, it sounds like making, like working with food and with raw materials has always been such a place of sanctuary and salvation, especially being able to actually do that with others that you love. But this was a time where it sounds like it was harder to do that. I mean, due to the depression, I lost my appetite. I lost my own interest in cooking, and the cooking has largely been a way for me to connect with friends. It's often, and through most of my life, been really social work. Just you go to work and you cook with other cooks, and you talk, and you see what they're doing, and there's inspiration, but also just fun and collegiality. So, that I didn't have, and I was just so lonely. I was so lonely in all of the ways. I love that your show is called Good Life Project because that was sort of became, in a way, like that could have been the title for what I was doing, was I was trying to orient myself. I kind of got this clarity. I was like, I spent my whole life trying to achieve because on some level, I believed that achieving and producing would lead to happiness. It would make my parents happy. It would make me happy. It would fill this, like, deep hole in my heart, and I would no longer feel this deep sense of loneliness and sadness that I've always thought of as my oldest friend. I'm therapist enough to know that it was not a conscious thing that was driving me, but once I did get all the achievement and I was lonelier and sadder than ever, it sort of forced me to acknowledge that I had had that flawed thinking all along. Before the pandemic, probably around the time I was coming to New York, probably around the time I saw you, one of my friends, Greta, had moved back to New York from California and she had just started having these weekly dinners. She fell in love and found a new partner who's a really thoughtful person, one of the smartest and most thoughtful people I know. He, in so many ways, also has all these trappings of success and also is just one of the most sort of spiritual, careful people I know. Whenever I meet someone who has somehow done things differently and is doing something so interesting, I'm always so curious how they became them. I'm sure this is the entire premise of your whole show. Basically, yeah. It's 14 years I've been with London. You're like, what happened in your life? Who do you know? Was it your parents? Is there something in you? How did this happen? I just started having so many conversations with these two friends. A big question I found themselves, them asking themselves was, what is a good life? What's the life that we want to build? Some of that was sort of being coming manifest through these weekly dinners, but also I think just in other ways of the choices that they were making. It's interesting to see people who, from the outside, appear like they have it all, to still be really grappling with this. To me, that was a really just hopeful thing. I got into these sort of conversations and that became this question that I just started asking myself. It's like, what is a good life? Because I had not had financial stability. I had not had support systems. I had not had, I don't know, recognition for my work. Then I got recognition and I got financial stability. When I didn't have it, I thought if I had that, I would feel okay. Then I had that and didn't solve the problem. I was like, okay, well, clearly there's some flaw in my thinking. I need to figure out what I can orient myself toward. How do I answer this question? That really became this thing. I just would ask myself in all these different ways. In some ways, it has become the barometer by which I can make other decisions of, do I want to do this thing? Will that take me closer or further away from a good life? Just trying to sit with, what is a good life really became the driver of my life in that time? Yeah. It's one of those questions that I think a lot of us ask in passing. Obviously, for me, it's become a bit of an obsession for a long time. I'm always like you. I'm always like, if I see somebody and there's just a twink and you're like, they figured something out. I don't care if you're famous. I don't care if you're like nobody knows you at all. Oftentimes, it's the quietest, most unknown people that I bump into and you're like, there's something that they know that I want to know that they figured out. It's amazing to sort of just be in the question. There isn't one universal answer for what I've found, but there are a lot of universal themes that people get back to. For you, it seems like being with friends, being in community has always been something just critically important for you, which I'm curious now also about because when you're at that moment a couple years early where you're like, everything's spinning around. I need to be able to actually touch stone again and make really good decisions. It sounds like your choice was solitude rather than community. You're like something and you said, I need solitude now, not people in order to find the clarity that I need, which seems like it was different than it was in the past. I also think that was one step in a larger sort of acknowledgement to myself that I think I had confused being around people with being in community or being close to people. It's so complicated, right? There's not a clear, there's not one thing, but I've always been a very social person. I also have a huge part of me that needs to be alone, but I don't want to just be a hermit all the time. I historically have been incredibly extroverted and I think wanting to be part of something. I've always felt outside and trying to find my way inside and be part of something and whether that word could be a family or a community or a group or whatever. How do I get inside the thing I feel outside of? I want to be in with and I have tried and failed many, many times for many reasons. But I think when I started cooking, there was a way where I, that desperate part of me that just wanted to be invited to the party or be part of the group or the celebration, recognized now I have a tool because I don't want to wait to be invited to the party because now I'm the cook and I can throw the party. If I throw the party, by definition, I'm invited. There was a way where I confused for a very long time, being at the party with being genuinely rooted in relationship with people. Do you know what I mean? It was not like ill-spirited or out of manipulation. It was like a desperate baby part of me trying to belong. It was just a way, it was like a survival tool. But I didn't understand that just because I got to go to the thing that everyone else was going to or whatever, that was not solving that sense of loneliness. That wasn't solving this thing that was plaguing me. In some ways, then when the show came out and I got all the invitations and all the attention, it was so much that I short circuited and I did have a sense that I needed to go be very quiet and very alone, just to try to reorient myself and reground myself. I just needed some quiet time to quiet my nervous system because it was just too much coming at me. No, that all makes sense. What you're describing, I think so many of us have felt that. It's like the difference between being invited and being beloved, being celebrated, being actually connected. Yeah. People genuinely wanting you there not just because there's a purpose, but actually they're just like your presence. They want to be around you and you want to be around them. It's a very different thing. I think a lot of us, like, I wish I was invited to this. Why am I not getting all the invites? It's not about being in the room. It could actually feel so lonely. So lonely. It's about feeling deeply connected to even three people. There's such a huge difference. This is a theme that also it weaves in so many different ways through the new book, through good things. This sense of being connected to people, through food, through hospitality, through hosting, through sharing time together, and even the weekly dinners that you've referenced. I feel like a lot of people don't know how to do that, how to step into the role of gathering people. They're all like you were just describing, they're waiting for the invitations. In no small way, I feel like this new work is kind of a permission slip to people to say you don't have to wait. Here's a little bit of a field guide for you to be able to actually feel comfortable gathering people on your own. You get to choose, invite your deep friends, your chosen family, to just come play, come talk, come eat food together, come make food together. And if you don't know how, which I think a lot of people don't, so they resist doing that, you're kind of like, I've got something for you. Was that part of the intention? Yeah, I mean, this book came together in such a funny way. Like I said, I had a totally different idea and went through a few different versions before it became this and it only became this in the making because I was in the real time finding myself again and coming back to myself. And a big part of that was just having these really casual dinners with my friends who at the time were not like my closest friends by any means. But I think the continued proximity has sort of like enabled an intimacy. And of course, we had a relationship. They were not strangers, but it just wasn't necessarily who I would have thought that I would make something like this with. And that's also been kind of beautiful that like that perfectionist part of me drove me for so long to be like, try and plan and orchestrate the best possible version of a weekly dinner and who would be in it and all of that kind of stuff. And then I would sort of collapse under the pressure of it or just knowing like I could never make that a reality for a variety of reasons. And then this one sort of appeared and we just stuck with it. And it has really shifted something in all of our lives. And at first, I thought it was just me, but I think we all sort of joke, we agree. It's our version of church, like it's our holy place. And that feels special and I wanted to offer that in the way that like, I read a lot and thought a lot about gifts when I was or just the idea of the gift, you know, I read the gift also while I was writing this book. And part of that was because I by the way, if nobody's read that Lewis Hides book, the gift, you've got to read it. So beautiful. Yeah. So beautiful. And the other book that was like really thoughtful about the idea of the gift was The Braiding Sweetgrass and sort of native Oh, yeah. Native concepts. Amazing. Yeah. Of the gift. And so I thought about that a lot because I sort of notoriously have a complicated relationship with recipes. And I was trying so hard to figure out how to justify like my relationship to them. But then the fact that I made a book of recipes after telling you like, here's a way to cook without recipes for the rest of your life. Just for context was following along. So that acid heat was basically like the fundamental message was the only recipe. Like understand these four different qualities of flavor. And once you understand that you can make anything. Yeah. And so then like, yeah, I felt like a real hypocrite when I was like, I guess I will write a recipe book. And so I just turned the word recipe over and over and over in my head and was trying to figure out like, how do I sort of come to peace with this myself, let alone like justify this for other people. And at some point, I look up the etymology of the word. And, you know, a recipe before it related to food was a word that doctors basically was like the prescription. And so and it's the infinitive or the imperative form of the word like to give or like, yeah. And so like it's like, so what it read cheap, at the top a pharmacist would write or a doctor would write it would mean like, here take this. Right. And so I sort of kept thinking about that. I was like, oh, like that's kind of the sentiment that I wrote salt, fat, acid heat was like, here take this. And in a weird way, I was like, oh, that's how I can think of a recipe is like, here take this. It's like, I'm giving this to you. And when I give you something, it's no longer mine anymore. It's yours to do with as you wish. And so there was an idea like that idea of I was trying to make something that I knew would not be mine once I made it and that would be a gift. And that felt like a really important thing to give to people was just a glimpse at this part of my life that has been really profoundly important and moving and maybe could be for you too. And I do know that it can feel really overwhelming and intimidating to try to set up something like this and commit to something like this. I have tried to and failed many times over the last 20 years. And so there were ways that we did it that I wouldn't have necessarily done if I were planning it or setting out with my own like, you know, spreadsheet that have actually ended up being really helpful. And so those were things that I wanted to offer to people. But what's interesting too is like, you spend all this time making a book and you're really in your own head, right? Like you're only a very few people sort of see it and you talk to them about it. And then it comes out in the world and you get to have a whole new relationship to it because now people are bringing you questions and feedback and interpreting and receiving in ways you didn't know were possible. And so there are just things like I've gotten so many questions about how to do that. I've gotten so many people's stories about their weekly things that they have been doing or have started doing. And that's really wonderful. But I also just, I realized like, it could be so simple, you know, there was this great photographer in New Orleans who was like a huge sort of community hub person. He was the kind of person like everybody knew, you know, his name was Pablo Johnson, I think, and he passed away a few years ago. But he, I met him once. And that was enough to garner an invitation to his Sunday like red beans and rice. There was just like everyone in New Orleans knew like you go to Pablo's house for red beans and rice on Sundays. And so I'm like, that's not fancy. It's just that it's consistent and that there's enough for everyone, right? Like that's all it needs to be is like the consistency and the invitation. And I love that part of it, you know, because I think we do get in our heads so much. We're like, if I'm going to have friends over, I'm going to have people over for dinner or brunch, whatever it be, we've got to have the perfect spread. We've got like perfectionism sneaks into every part of our lives. And I mean, we're just constantly amplifies that like we just like the world amplifies that. And I know I'm like, I can't help but be part of that too, even though I'm trying so hard to not be like you make a cookbook, you put pictures of the food, people want their food to look like the picture. But also it's like, how else am I going to communicate stuff I don't know. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Search Siri with an X! ACAST recommends Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where you are on the planet. This is Bill Nye at Ill-Advised by Bill Nye to announce season two. Yeah, there's a season two, so get ready and think what to wear. And I'll attempt to answer more of your questions without actually making things worse. I will be recommending books and playlists. If you're looking for a way to waste time, squander time, put the kettle on, because season two of Ill-Advised is back. Calm down. ACAST powers the world's top podcasts, including 90s Baby, Staying Relevant, and the show you're listening to right now. But what I think also you do a beautiful job of, throughout your things, is this notion of saying, I'm also going to try and keep this as simple and accessible as possible. You probably have a whole bunch of stuff in your pantry already. You don't have to go to the bougie shop in town and get the most exotic ingredients. You can if you want to, if it's just fun for you, awesome. Have at it. But we all have a lot of stuff, and it's really the idea of... The food is... It's the canvas. And you want a nice canvas and you want to paint a little something nice on it, but it's like you want to bring everyone together to make the picture, to make the image, to make... And that's the people. It's a conversation. It's the love that unfolds around it. And no art is perfect. The most moving pieces of art you've ever seen are not the ones with the straightest lines and the most realistic things. It's the one that makes you feel. And I feel like that's a lot of the focus. What I'm seeing is like, you don't have to go overboard here. Don't worry about being perfect. Just do something that feels yummy and brings people together. And let that be where the magic really unfolds around this. There's something you're saying that it's like clicking something for me, which is the thing that art makes you feel. Because I often think about at a meal, like the meals that have been the most memorable to me, I generally don't remember what I ate. It's like what happened and how I felt at the table. And I often... I have a really interesting sort of memory. I can remember certain things super clearly and specifically, especially from books that I've read or movies or anything that I have felt really moved by. But often, I completely forget entire plots and characters and I just remember that something... I loved something so much because it made me feel something. Yeah, it's like something magical happened. And so there's a way where like... I often... Yeah, it's like, I... I could be like, oh my God, this book, it was so good. I have no idea what happened. I just remember like I loved Northwoods. I hold on to that feeling and I feel like that's essentially what I'm trying to say about the table too, is like just make space for that feeling because that feeling is way more important than whether or not you have like the perfect mozzarella, you know, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me and I think it resonates with so many people. It just makes it so much more easy for someone to say, I can do this. And you do get very specific guidance and directions. You talk about condiments and dressings and all the different things. But one of the other things that... So for somebody who's looking for actually specific guidance, it's in there. But there's also... There's a really juicy philosophical subtext to the whole thing, which kind of says, just exhale, man. And I'm telling you that as much... Right, it's like if you're not having fun along the way, something's wrong. And I'm like, as much I'm saying that to myself as I am to you. Like it's a reminder to my own self. I know everything doesn't have to be the most. And so much of it was just a coming back to... Basically, I had to have like a little mantra of like, whatever you are is enough. Like whatever is showing up is enough, which is not historically has been true for me. But I had to in some ways believe that for myself to be able to make the book. And that's also what I'm trying to model for you and communicate to you that that's enough too. And there, I don't know, you could have a totally good dinner of just grilled cheese sandwiches. I was literally just thinking about that. Like I'm sure you've seen the movie Chef, and there's that scene where he's just making a grilled cheese sandwich. And my mouth as well. And I'm like, this is stunningly good. It is the simplest thing. And you get that anything can have like beauty and just their love just oozing from it. It doesn't complexity. It's not about how fancy or complex it is, you know, the most basic stuff. I think it's years ago, I was talking to somebody about making instruments, a luthier. Cool. And they were like, yeah, you can feel the maker's heart. Like I was like, what makes a great instrument? And they're like, you can feel the maker's heart through the instrument. That's so beautiful. And I feel like the same thing with food. Like you can feel that and that's so much more important than how complex or, yes, a beautifully plated dish is awesome. It's like a work of art to look at. And so is a grilled cheese that was made with love. Totally. One other thing I wanted to add, like touch base on, you also, you explode the notion of time in the book. And, you know, we live in this culture where everything has to happen so quickly and it's instant, instant, instant. And it's like, there's a certain grace that happens when you actually just let time unfold. And even, you know, like bread has to rise. You know, there's certain ingredients that you work with. Like there's no way to rush certain things and it forces us to stop and slow down. Even when like I'm generally the cook in our house and when we have friends over for dinner. I kind of like it when we're not ready to serve them when they get there. I kind of like it when we're all got to hang out in the kitchen for an hour or something for it. And it's just going to take some time. And that's part of the experience. Talk to me a little bit more just about this notion of cooking as a metaphor for building time into our lives. Well, like I said, when I was so depressed, I was really sort of reexamining so much about what I'm doing, what my own relationship to cooking and eating is. Like I was like, do I even really need to write another book? Like I already told you everything I know in the one book. You know, there was just a sort of like, I there wasn't a sense of meaning or I couldn't identify the why for myself. Yeah, why am I doing this? And what is the meaning here? And sort of separately, I as I was turning over this question of what is a good life and having beginning to have these weekly dinners. What my friend gave me this book, The Sabbath, which is like a small little book by a rabbi philosopher named Abraham Joshua Heschel. And it really sort of, I mean, my friend gave it to me to sort of help me think about the role of these weekly dinners in my life and the meaning of them. And in that book, Abraham Joshua Heschel writes about Judaism being a religion, not of like space and material things, but of time. And that the Sabbath is sort of one of these like foundational practices inside of the religion because you're carving out, he calls it a palace in time, I think, or cathedral in time. And that I just kept thinking about that like the meaning of time in our lives and like, and then sort of shortly after I'm sitting there with thinking about all this, then my dad dies. And this really sort of prolonged and really melodramatic and complicated and chaotic way that causes so much suffering and pain, not only for everyone around him, but also for himself, which was just my dad was a complicated and quite dangerous person, honestly. But I don't feel like anyone deserves like undue suffering. And I did spend those last several months at his bedside, partly because he was incapacitated and hence like couldn't hurt me in the way that he had. But also it was an opportunity to try to like talk through some things and get some closure and witnessing this person die in this really like chaotic, painful, suffering filled, like ultimately very lonely way was really instructive for me because I just kept thinking like, how sad, how sad. Like this is what he sowed, you know, like he sowed the seeds for this and it's coming back for him now. And like this is the saddest thing I can think of, like the most pathetic and I say that like passive like pathetic way to end a life. And it really made me think about like, what do I want to think about and reflect back on and look back on when I'm in that position when I'm dying. Like I want to be able to look back and be like, I made a life like full of creativity and friendship and love and nature and puppies and friends, you know, and good food and like that's what I want. But if I want that, like I have to start doing that now. I have to make sure like every choice I make now is going into that because I just, I think, yeah, it's very cliche to like watch someone die and then like realize your own mortality. But that's really what happened. And like I just was like, oh, I've had this sense my whole life that if I work hard enough and am capital G good enough and do good enough or do enough good, that that will like earn me some points in some invisible, I don't know, metric by some invisible force. And at some point, then I will be rewarded with like security and happiness because I did enough. I did it enough. But then now I was like all of a sudden being like, wait a minute, there's no guarantee. Like where's like what's this invisible force? Like what's the number I'm trying to reach? You know, like why I'm basically like depositing into some bank account that's like a bottomless pit and I will never be able like I just was like, I have to start withdrawing now. I have to start like having taking advantage of like every day and what I have. And I really in some ways have majorly shifted certain things. And now I like do say yes, and I do go on the trip and I do take the opportunity in a way that like historically, I've just self-flagellated and put my head down and worked. And so that was such a sort of huge shift for me in like the on a cellular level. And I that it would became the driving thing of my life was this idea of like time as my most valuable and precious currency. And so if it's my most precious thing, then sharing it with someone is actually like the most beautiful thing I can do. And for me in my life and for many people, I think like a very simple way on a daily basis that I can share that time or express my love through an investment of time is by cooking for you or by eating with you. And so that sort of became the way I understood the value of cooking for me. And I have come to understand it in my own life is like it's not about me like innovating and creating and being like whatever it's about like this, you know, when I and maybe it's so sappy, but like I try to cook for people like whatever it is that they would like most on their birthdays. And so that's often an opportunity for me to really spend like a day or longer like thinking about you while I'm making this thing for you. And I'm like truly thinking about you and pouring like this good energy and this love into this food. And can you taste it? I don't know. Yes, probably. But it's more that like it's I'm actually just giving you a piece of myself. Yeah. But you're also saying in doing that you're saying to that friend, I know you like I've been paying attention. I see you. And that is like that is and so it's like whatever you cook for them, sure, it's yummy. It's going to have your love in it. And you know, I can and it'll be a you know, a savory experience in the moment. You know, it's something. But like underneath all that is this like, you know, if the subtext is I see you, I know you, I acknowledge you. That is so rare in today's world. Like I feel like we are just so desperate to be seeing beyond the facade. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. You've kind of answered my last question, but I'm going to ask it more fully again. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Like taking care of the people around me, allowing them to take care of me, taking care of the environment, you know, like doing my best to like feel totally present on any given day and any given moment and like appreciate what's there. Like taking in art, making art, hugging my puppy. Yeah. Yeah. Being trying to just like feel the fullness of my humanity. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you'd love this conversation, you'll also love the conversation we had with Samine about her journey from anxiety and depression to finding joy through food, writing and community as Chez Penise. Her earlier visit also offers a wonderful compliment to today's conversation. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven second favor to share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. We get it. Making tax digital can sometimes feel daunting, but with Zeros HMRC recognized software, you quickly get to feeling confident. If you're a sole trader or landlord whose income tax is going digital, not only is Zeros MTD ready, it also gives you better control of your finances, like having the clear financial visibility you need every quarter to avoid end of year tax surprises. Change the way you see MTD. Search MTD ready with zero. Hello, I'm Roshan Conaty and I'm hosting the last laugh, the Last One Laugh In podcast. This series I'll be joined by a load of the Last One Laugh In gang and some celebrity fans of the show to bring you all the big moments and gossip from series two of Last One Laugh In UK. 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