Talking Tortillas, with Pati Jinich

This episode is sponsored by Broad and Taylor, helping more people bake bread, gather around the table, and share something made by hand. I'll chop up some... Refreshing. Okay. What? You look like you're making a wrap. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Badalana, King Arthur's staff editor. And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And today we're talking about tortillas. DING! Tortillas. You know, I think I often share weird stories with you, and today will be no exception. Oh, great. Because one of the things that I like to do when I travel is pick up specialty food from whatever destination I'm visiting. From the airport. From the airport you show. Yes, duty free. Well, what I also do is that I will like pack clothes that I want to throw out. What? I'll pack like old t-shirts, and I'll wear them during the trip, and then I throw them out to make room in my suitcase for something I want to bring back. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I was very shabby when I travel. Now I understand why so many people look the way they do at airports. And then discard them at the end of the trip. To make room for... To make room for some sort of food stuff that I'm bringing back. Like, I went to San Francisco. I wanted to get the special rice from my friend who's a Japanese chef out there. I packed a bunch of old t-shirts through them out, brought several gallon bags of rice. But recently, you know, I was in Austin, and when I went in Rome, when in Austin, I was like, I'm going to get tortillas because there's a lot of things you can get in Maine, you know, but great tortillas are not really one of them. And in Austin, it's like, they're so easy to get. Yes. And so inexpensive. And so I brought back 200 tortillas. Did you have any clothes in your bag at this point? I never used like, threw out everything. And I brought a mixture of corn tortillas, flour tortillas, some that were mixed, corn and flour, different sizes, different thicknesses. Wow. And now I have, you know, I've bragged about my chest freezer before. Yes. And I'll continue to brag about that until the day that I die. Full of tortillas now. It's full of tortillas now. Oh, gosh, that is great. I mean, so it is true. One of the things I think about most when I think about tortillas is how hard it is to get a good one in New England. Yes. You know, and even in New York City, I mean, you were in Texas, which of course has an amazing culture for Mexican food and tortillas, you know, Latin American food. I spent a lot of time in Chicago, lived there for 10 years. There's a huge Mexican population there. And there were so many tortillas in, you know, in the city of Chicago, making fresh masa every day and making tortillas, you grab them warm. So this is the thing, you would go to the grocery stores and you probably still can. I haven't lived in Chicago for a few years, but you would grab stacks of tortillas from the grocery store and you had your pick of so many brands that were freshly made that day and they were still warm. Still warm. I mean, and that is a gift. Yeah, it is. A bag of warm tortillas, as you know, because you smuggled them from Texas back to Maine. There are very few things that are as delicious as a fresh tortilla made with good masa. Yes. And I think, you know, I have always loved tortilla. Well, I won't say always because I grew up in Vermont. So and it was like Vermont and the, no, you can get packed tortillas here, but, you know, they were never great. And it wasn't until I moved to California to San Francisco and I was within walking distance of La Palma, which is a, what do they call it, a Mexican tessin. And they make both corn and flour tortillas there. And I think that's like, you know, it was sort of like that was the, I mean, not the light bulb moment exactly, but that was where I started to really appreciate like, oh, it's not a monolith. Like there are like, you know, there's huge difference between corn and flour. And even within that, there are differences with ones made with fresh masa or masa harina, you know, flour tortillas with lard or with, you know, oil. So the scales fell from my eyes. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah, one of the most interesting tortillas that we have on our site is a red tortilla made with chilies to make it red. I mean, so there is not only just corn or wheat, but also like, what else are you going to put in that tortilla? And I feel like we've been seeing a trend for a few years now of people doing some really cool stuff with tortillas, you know, mixing in things to make your beautiful colors, pressing flowers, edible flowers. Yeah. There's so much that's happening with tortillas. But today, I think we're going to keep it pretty basic. I think first we should go back to the beginning of time. I mean, not really, but we should talk about the origins of tortillas because they have deep, deep, deep roots. Yes. And this is particular to corn tortillas, what we're about to talk about. But we're going back to 2000 BC. Ah, yes. So the Aztec, Mayan and Mesoamerican peoples, you know, who inhabited what is, you know, now Mexico and Central America, it was a corn culture. You know, corn was sort of a god to be prayed to, but also a crop. It was the thing that sustained them because corn was... King. ...was everything. I mean, it was these civilizations, you know, around 1000 BC that sort of figured out something that kind of like changed. I mean, I don't think it's overstating to say like, it changed the course of civilization. No, what you're about to talk about, I do think, is one of the most important things that ever happened to some of the... I think so. So they discovered that if you took dried, you know, dried on the corn, no, dried on the cob, kernels of corn, and they cooked them in water that they had mixed some ash from cooking into the water, that made the water sort of alkaline, and that alkaline water softened the corn. And so then you were able to like peel off what's called the pericarb, the outer layer, and access the nutritional powerhouse beneath. So very rich in vitamins, you know, rich in niacin, calcium, and also once you had the pericarb off, and this is like we're getting to the tortilla part, like then you could grind this into something that was like a smooth paste. Right. And then tortillas were born. The process is now called nixtamalization, and you're right, it's an incredible thing. And corn's so nutritious, I mean, and without it, I think you would just have like starchy sugar, sugar-y starch, basically, without any nutrients. And so it's not something that could sustain a people for thousands of thousands of years, whereas nixtamalized corn can and did. And so it's a very cool thing, and that same process is happening. Well, that's it. It hasn't changed that much, which is sort of the amazing part. Like, I mean, of course, the production of tortillas has become more industrial, but the basic process remains the same. Like now instead of ash from your cooking fire, they're using calcium hydroxide or slaked lime in the water. But otherwise, it's still like you cook the corn in this alkaline water, then the pericarb is removed, and then it's ground, and obviously, yes, it's automated. It's not done with like a grinding stone anymore, but still, like the fundamental of it is the same. So corn tortillas came first. Yes. Well, actually, what came first, and I think what we should be clear about is what you have once you go through that process of nixtamalization and grinding is not a tortilla, you have masa, which is the dough, which you can use to make a bunch of different things. Perhaps the best thing is a tortilla, but a corn tortilla is perhaps the easiest thing, too. If you didn't have, you know, a lot of extra ingredients, if you didn't have a lot of tools, like the idea of making basically like a pancake out of this dough and cooking it, you know, on a griddle, pretty straightforward. So corn tortillas preceded flour tortillas by like, you know, I don't know, 500 years or so. But then, you know, Spanish colonizers, we all know how this story goes, but the Spanish colonizers arrive to, you know, present day Mexico, Central America, and they see that this entire civilization is built around corn. I mean, and I think it's interesting because we think about the symbolic importance of corn to, you know, the Mayan Mesoamerican people. I mean, and for the Spanish colonizers, like, they had a similar relationship to wheat, like, you know, and they sort of believed that, like, you know, well, the body of Christ was not a corn tortilla, right? Like, it was a piece of bread, and so wheat was really important to those cultures. So they get to Mexico, Central America, and they think, great, we're going to plant wheat. And they did. And in many parts of Mexico and Central America, the wheat crop did great. And then they use their traditional methods of, you know, milled it into flour and made these flour tortillas. And I think it's interesting, like, I always think about convergence on our culinary planet, right? Like, flour tortillas are very similar to many of the, like, flatbreads that you see, the unleavened flatbreads that you see throughout, you know, Eastern Europe. And so, yeah, they got a foothold in Mexico, and it remains that way today. There are parts of Mexico that are still sort of flour tortilla strongholds. And I love a flour tortilla. But I do want to talk now, because I think we've arrived at the moment where it is interesting to talk about the difference between a store-bought, shelf-stable corn or flour tortilla and the homemade, or, you know, bakery made, fresh made, different. I mean, I think, you know, when you make tortillas at home, you understand pretty quickly that they don't last a long time, you know, they're not a flapper. They're not a flapper that's meant to last for a few days, you know. So, it's interesting to keep that in mind when you're thinking about, you know, the tortillas. I buy these things sometimes, you know, it's a convenient street, and I buy them. You know, I live in a neighborhood in Manhattan, you know, where there are a lot of tortillas around, but they're just, they just have attitudes, you know, they have things to preserve them. And they're, they are not as fragrant as, you know, fresh made tortillas is. I mean, one of my favorite smells in the world is opening a bag of masa harina. Because I'm usually working with masa harina, not fresh masa. Like I've had fresh masa, or just, you can't see me, some of you can't, but I'm like, you know, my name is Matthew and tortilla into my face. To smell it, I mean, the smell of that fresh corn, so, and icing. And they're like, client too. Yes. I mean, a fresh one or that. Yes, a fresh corn tortilla. Like, you know, if you get a store bought stack of corn tortillas, and you go to like fold one and a half, like it's going to crack unless you like steam it in the microwave or something. Like it's just, they dry out so quickly. Yeah. Whereas like a freshly made one is like supple, you know, it's like. The test of a good tortilla is a fresh tortilla. Yeah. And the thing that's been made well is that you hold in your hand, you should be able to crumple it up. Oh, wow. And then unfurl it and it should, and it should remain intact. Oh, wow. Imagine doing that. Yeah. That is the test of a good tortilla. Freshly made corn tortilla. And you're right, the ones in the grocery store will crack because they've, you know, probably not that fresh and they're old. They dried out a little bit. Yeah. And the great tip that I was recently reminded of by Lucas Volger, who of course is a friend of the brand, a great food writer, he runs the sub stack family friend, is to heat the tortillas up in a skillet that's just very lightly slicked with oil really helps. You know, I think it helps hydrate the tortilla a little bit, you know, keeps that pan, you know, nonstick. Yeah. Those tortillas flipping and frying. It's a very good, another good way to do it. Nice. It's possible. I mean, and like I said, I do this a lot because I feel lazy. I don't want to make my own tortillas. But you have to, the store bought tortillas not as good by any means. No. And you have to, you have to revive them. You can't just use them right out of the way. No. We have great tortilla recipes on our site. We have flour tortilla recipes. We have corn tortilla recipes. We have a 50 50, which are terrific. They're half wheat, half corn. Yeah. That's a good like entryway. I think if you want to get into corn tortillas, they make it, it's a much easier. Yes. Corn tortilla. Yes. You know, yes. But so anyway, we'll put all of those recipes in the show notes as part of our agenda to get everyone making homemade tortillas by the end of this episode. Right. So go look at the show notes now, gather your ingredients, and then you can get ready while we talk to our guest. Right. Who is going to help us make good tortillas at home? Patty Yenich is truly one of my favorite people on the planet. She is such an amazing cook and such a, I mean, she's just a joyful personality. I just, I love talking to her. And of course she's a cookbook author too. So we're bringing Patty on. She's done a lot of work with us here at King Arthur and she's going to get all of us in tortilla making shape. Awesome. I can't wait to hear. Patty Yenich is one of the foremost authorities on Mexican food. She's the author of several books, including Treasures of the Mexican Table, Mexican Today, and a cookbook that's about to come out this fall. Foods of La Frontera. Go pre-order that now. And of course she's the host and producer of several PBS series, including Patty's Mexican Table in its 15th season, which is amazing. And Pana Meracana, how do I do pronouncing that? Not too good. That's beautiful. Yeah. Well, she's she's also a very sweet person and a longtime friend of King Arthur and Patty, I am so thrilled to have you on the podcast. I love talking to you and I'm so excited to talk about tortillas. Oh, thank you so much, David. And I love how you said Pana Meracana. We wanted to bring you on to talk about tortillas. It means to me, I don't know if you agree, but it is, in my opinion, the most elemental and essential of foods in of Mexican food, but of lots of, you know, cuisines, South and Central America. And I wanted to start by asking you if you remember, by any chance, making your first tortilla or if you have any memories, early memories of tortillas. Yes, of course. You know, growing up in Mexico City and having tortillas around was just like having a light, you know, having a light around every neighborhood has its not one, but few tortillas. And we would go every week and get fresh. It was corn tortillas, like freshly made corn tortillas. And in the biggest treat, David, was when you went there and they were coming out hot of the giant machine, you would ask for a couple of dozens and then they would give you an extra one and they had there in the counter. And that was the case in every tortilla. They had salt in the bag. And so you could make a taquito de nada, which translates to a taco of nothing or a nothing taco, which is in my mind. You know, after considering a ripe avocado slice inside of a corn tortilla, the most delicious thing is just fresh corn tortilla, earthy, nutty, super soft, malleable with just a sprinkle of salt. And if they happen to have a little stick of butter, then that was like, oh my gosh, you know, the most amazing thing. You're bringing up so many things about the tortilla that I want to talk about. So let's pretend we're talking to a bunch of home cooks and they are getting ready to make tortillas for the first time. You've done a lot of work teaching people how to make tortillas. You developed the tortilla recipe on our site, which we're so grateful for. And it's a great recipe. I've used it so many times. What would you say, what advice would you give to the home cook who is just starting? I would say, well, first of all, I'm so happy that more people want to try and make their own corn tortillas. And I would say a few things are essential. Like the first thing is give yourself the time. It's not something that you're going to make like a sandwich. Like you have to reserve a block of time to be relaxed. Like you can start making your corn tortillas at 6.15 if you want to be serving dinner at 6.30. So I would say give yourself the time and get the tools. Like get a really good tortilla press and a really good tortilla press isn't an expensive one at all. It just, it has to be, you know, heavy. It has to, it just has to flatten the mass. Like nothing complicated there. But I would steer away from the fancy big square tortilla presses because they're more cumbersome to use. I like just the basic steel or heavy aluminum round tortilla presses. And it's funny because most of the good tortilla presses are a little bit uneven. You have to jiggle them a little bit when you use them, but that's just part of the process. And then to press the tortillas, you need plastic. And some people forget about that and will press the masa in the tortilla press. And then the masa sticks to both sides of it. So you need to remember and people forget you need plastic on both sides. So you open up the tortilla press, you layer a sheet of plastic. And I like using the plastic from the plastic bags from the grocery store from the vegetable aisles. That very thin plastic is the best. And just cut circles and you want to cut the circle larger than the base of the tortilla press so that you're not messing with it too much. And then you could have the plastic bag. I want to pause you right there because I love that tip about using the plastic bag from the grocery store. And you would not recommend using plastic wrap, right? Like something like that. No, no, no, no, because plastic wrap is way too thin and it crumbles and it's going to mark all those wrinkles in the masa. So the produce bags are the best in between the plastic wrap and say a C-plug bag, which a C-plug bag is not bad. Like I would much rather go for a C-plug bag than plastic wrap. Mix your masa arena with water. I do add a pinch of salt. I never add fat to my masa or masa arena unless if I'm making masa dumplings or sopes or gorditas. But for corn tortillas, you don't need to add any fat at all. And you want to make sure that you have a pan that's been preheating and, you know, over medium low heat for at least 10 minutes because you want that surface to be very hot and ready for the tortilla. If it's not hot enough, when you lay down the tortilla, the tortilla will stick. Think of pancakes or crepes. It'll stick and then you'll have to wait until it creates a crust to flip it. And you don't want it to be too hot or it will burn the tortilla and not cook it from within. And I recommend for people that are starting that they use a very affordable nonstick because that's just the easiest thing to start with. Once you have made tortillas a few times, you can go to a comal. That's not nonstick or a cast iron pan. I have a lot of friends that use cast iron pans and they love it. And then you have to wait for the masa. Once you flatten it out into a tortilla and it has to be very thin. To be a Mexican tortilla, it has to be very thin. If it's thicker, it's good for a pupusa, which is not Mexican. I mean, it's delicious, but not for tacos. And then you just have to have patience. It's like when you're learning to make crepes. The first, the second one, the third one are probably not going to be your best ones, but you just have to continue going at it. Yeah. So there are two points over this process where I personally get tripped up sometimes, especially if I haven't done it in a while. So I want to know if you have any tips for me. One is the hydration of the dough. It's important you get that right. But we know that we can give people a recipe and people can weigh with grams, but depending on what season it is, depending on what your kitchen is like, depending on what type of masa you're using, these elements change how the dough is going to feel. What should I be looking for in the masa? How thick it should be? This is such a great question. It has a temperamental answer because it really depends on the weather, not only of where you live, say if you're in Colorado or you're in Florida, how much humidity there is, the altitude, because that will also affect the heat and how long you're cooking the tortilla. So this is very easy and I know people think it's very complicated, but this is what you're looking for. You're looking for a masa that is soft as fresh play dough. It's, you know, play dough when you first take it out of the little container. After you've used play dough a few times and you forgot to put the lid on, then it starts getting crackly and you can't play with it as well. And the best test to know if the, and you have to really knead the dough, even though it's just flour and water and I like to add, you know, hot or lukewarm water, even though it's just mixing that I do like to add a pinch of salt, you have to let the masa hydrate for a little while for a few minutes. You can just immediately start making the tortillas because the masa will continue transforming. That is the masa arena will continue absorbing the water and becoming a thing. You know, the masa in the water will become its own thing, not separate units. So we have to give it that time. But when you make your balls of dough and I like to divide the masa from the get go, because I, you're not going to like me saying this, but I don't like to weigh my masa, my balls of masa. I just take that's heresy on this podcast. But yes, okay. And I honestly, I don't mind if some tortillas are a little bigger than others. I really don't mind. But what you need is a final texture. And the proof is when you have your ball of masa and you press it in the tortilla or the tortilla press, there should be no cracks on the edges. That's how you know that the masa is moist and wet enough. If there are cracks, it's too dry. Yes. And then can it be saved? Would you put a little more water? You just gather the masa, throw it back in the ball in the ball where you have the masa and add more water and eat it again. Or you could even do it to just that ball of masa. It's always, always salvageable until you cook it. The most important thing to make really good, um, a corn tortillas is to cut yourself slack, to leave yourself time in the kitchen and to cut yourself slack and be kind and loving and forgiving to yourself and build that determination and confidence. So it doesn't matter. You're just going to get better with time. Before we end our conversation, I wanted to talk about some of the regional styles of tortillas in Mexico. You've been doing a lot of traveling, you know, for your TV show. It sounds like your new book is about like regional food. Is that right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. My next cookbook is called Foods of La Frontera. It's recipes and nuttes from tears from both sides of the border. And it's, you know, the southern US states and the northern Mexican states. And I realized, David, that we Mexicans know so little about Norteño, Cuisine and culture. And one of their pillars is the flour tortilla. And in those northern Mexican states, they use Sonoran wheat, which is extraordinary. But of course you can, you can just find any good wheat to make flour tortillas. But the flour tortillas are so divine. They're like, like thin little biscuits or pancakes. I mean, they're just buttery. They're flaky. They're all kinds. They're like super thin, big ones for burritos. They're normal sized ones for tacos. There are some that are made on special occasions that are used, where butter is used for the fat. There's some places in the border where they use beef lard or tallow and they use the beef cracklings. There's some parts where they use pork lard. There's some parts where they use specific kinds of vegetable shortening. There's even some flour tortillas that are called gorditas de harina, not gorditas de maíz, like gorditas de harina, which are just chuvier flour tortillas that are made with butter and evaporated milk. And can't even describe the taste. And what are those used for? Are they eaten on their own or are they filled? Oh, so yeah. So those are typically used for filling them with refried beans and melted cheese. Oh my God. And that sounds so good. They're extraordinary. They're like little empanadas. They're such a luxury. You know, the more I travel and the more I do what I do, the more I'm just hoping for more years, David, because I realize I know so little. You know, I used to think, oh, I know so much. I'm from Mexico. And you know, no, in Mexico, corn tortillas are better than flour tortillas. And then I traveled to like half of Mexico and realized that the rule there is really good flour tortillas. And that they're incredible. So I think there's so much to learn. I mean, I could talk to you for years, honestly, about, you know, listening to you talk about this stuff, because it just is all so fascinating. And I just think Mexican cuisine is the richest cuisine. I'm going to go ahead and say, for me, I just think there's so much to explore and so much delicious. So many delicious things, including all the tortillas. It's so wonderful to talk to you. I wish I could talk to you forever. But our editors are going to kill us. We'll survive. This is so sad. But we can get to do this again anytime. This episode is brought to you by Broad and Taylor. Broad and Taylor is an independent family owned company that builds tools for all bread breakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures. I love Broad and Taylor. I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking. When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone, a King Arthur too. There's that synergy there because we only have one thing on our mind. It's baking, baking, baking. I love their tools. They really truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens. You know, my favorite, I think, is the countertop proofer. I don't know. 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Let's hear our questions. Hi, this is Sue calling from North Carolina. My question is, I want to make tortillas, but what do I do if I don't have a tortilla press? Well, first of all, I'm glad that our tortilla messaging is getting through to this caller. She really wants to make tortillas at home. Yeah. And we haven't talked about tortilla presses yet. And actually, it's an important thing to talk about because there is a wide range of them out there and I have fallen prey to the cheap tortilla press, which is light plastic. Oh, no, I don't have a plastic one. I have a metal one. I didn't know they made plastic ones. It's not great to get a light one. I don't think you need to buy an expensive tortilla press, but you want to get one with some heft to it first of all. Yes. You want to make tortillas now and you don't have a tortilla press. Yes. And I will say a tortilla press is sort of a single use appliance. And sometimes you just can't make the space for a single or you're an occasional tortilla maker. And so you perhaps haven't leveled up to justifying the purchase of a tortilla press, but that's okay. I mean, if you want to, and obviously this caller wants to make corn tortillas because if they wanted to make flour tortillas, they would just see a rolling pin. Right. You have a hack for... Yeah. If you're just getting to it and you don't want to buy a tortilla press yet, you got to get those sheets of plastic. Those are non-negotiable. Yes. But I would set a piece of plastic on the countertop, put your ball of masa on top, plastic on top of that. And then I would use the heaviest skillet you have. So I would use a cast iron skillet and I would not slam it down. You know, you press gently. And this is something else we haven't talked about that one of the other nuances of making tortillas at home is the pressure. Yeah. We'll talk about that a little bit. But you know, like if you press it too much or you press too much with this cast iron skillet, you're going to get something way too thin. Yeah. Way too soft to the pan. And if you don't do it enough, it'll be too thick. So anyway, experiment with that. But you can get a pretty nice even press with a cast iron skillet. With a large skillet. Yeah. Well, let's go to our next question. How do I get my tortillas to puff? Practice. Practice. This makes better. And again, I think this is a question really for, I mean, flour tortillas, I don't think you have to work so hard to puff. They just kind of do. Corn tortillas though. And it's interesting, like people think about a puffing corn tortilla as a hallmark of a good tortilla. Yeah. Right. I think it is technically, I mean, you know, when you see people who really know how to make tortillas or like you're at a restaurant or a tortilla, I mean, those things are puffing. And they're like, and it's a beautiful thing to watch, you know, and they do it and it seems so easy. And it's not. Sometimes your tortilla does not puff. Because they have no leavener in them. They have no leavener. So it's technique and temperature. And yeah, and it's, you know, steam. So it's your hydration, right? You know, and your dough, it's all sorts of factors. One thing you can do if your tortilla is cooking and it's not puffing and you really want it to puff. And this is good. I do this all the time. I always want to give it a chance, right? Take a spatula and gently press on the tortilla. Press it down into the hot skillet, maybe flip it, you know, do that again. That pressing motion, which works with a lot of things. A lot of flatbreads. Yeah, a lot of flatbreads does encourage puffing. And sometimes that works. You get a beautiful puff then and then it settles down. You don't have a lot of time when you're making tortillas. They don't cook very well. Because you're griddling them pretty high heat. Yeah. I would say it's like 90 seconds, you know, it's about the average time. And so I wouldn't keep your tortilla on the skillet and pressing it to try to get it to pop. Yeah, because then it'll dry out. You know, just move on. Yeah. I mean, and the nice thing is even a non-puffed corn tortilla, still very delicious. Yes. Like it might not be like, you know, patty style, you know, it might not be like restaurant style, but it'll eat as we used to say growing up, it'll eat. So I think, yeah, just you're right. It's getting the reps in. And you know, I think like every time you do something like this, like you learn a little bit about like, oh, maybe I should have added a little bit more water or, and you know, there's going to be variability between fresh masa and, you know, reconstituted masa harina. So you know, I wish there was a magic, you know, a magic tip, but it is really practice. Yeah, it's practice and not something to worry about. I think we have one more tortilla question. Hi, my name is Lauren. I'm calling in from Virginia. My question is, I have a tortilla recipe that calls for lard and I'm wondering, do I need lard or can I use something else? And how does your choice of fat make a difference in flour tortillas? Thanks. You do not need to use lard. I mean, it's really just a question of flavor. And some people find the flavor of lard to be off-putting, you know, or if you're a vegetarian and you just don't want to use lard, that's fine. Also I think it is a sad fact that a lot of like the commodity lard that you get, like the blocks of, you know, it's like sold in a brick like butter is not very delicious anyway. So you can use, we, when we were working on the big book of bread, we tried lots of different fats knowing that some people wouldn't be able to get lard or wouldn't want to use lard for whatever reason. And we experimented with butter in tortillas. We experimented with coconut oil, you know, like the solid coconut oil. We experimented with like other neutral oils and they all work. So that's like, functionally, there's really no difference. So it's really just a question of flavor. So you can definitely sub something else out. And you know, it'd be great. I do like lard. Like if you can get good lard, a lard tortilla I think is delicious, but you know, it's nice to know that you can sub something else and it'll be just fine. And you substitute the same amount by, you know, weight or volume. Yeah. It should be good to go. Anyway, there. Fat episode coming soon. Oh, we should do a fat episode. Well, now I've told one of my best fat stories. I'll come up with another one. Every episode we'd like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. A segment we lovingly call, just opinions. I got a preview of what this just opinion is, but I didn't hear the whole thing and I'm very excited, Jessica, for your tortilla, just opinion. Yeah. So this is, I mean, I'm digging a little bit here because it's, it's about burritos. Okay. Which are of course related to tortillas, you know, closely related. You can't have a burrito without one. No, you can't. And I was thinking. I mean, lettuce does not count. No, sorry. It's not a wrap. I was thinking about my, I mean, I love a burrito until I get to like the last inch of the burrito. Okay. A.K. the burrito stump. Okay. Yeah. You know, where all the tortilla. You've already eaten one of the stumps. Yeah. Yeah. You start your burritos in the middle. You eat it like a slice of watermelon. Oh yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine? When you get to the bottom and it's sort of compressed by your hand and the weight of the burrito ingredients and you have that sort of like kind of dense layer upon layer of tortilla and, you know, tortilla but stump basically. You get to the stump. Yeah. Revolting. I do not like a burrito stump at all. Okay. Like I'll stop eating it there. Yes. But our producer was. Is this on that conference? I don't know. Our producer was like horrified. She said that was her favorite part of the burrito. I just think it's too much tortilla. Like I like to have. Well, it's a lot of tortilla. It's not a naked tortilla. It's so much naked but also sort of slimy a little bit. Oh God. You're really selling it. I know. But I will say there is a way to save the stump. My Yankee thrift coming to bear again is like I will take the stump home. Wrap it up. Okay. This is where you're losing me. Taking home refrigerated and then the next morning I'll chop up the stump. Okay. The face you're making right now. Just to be clear, we're talking about. A bottom inch. A bottom inch. An entire inch? Yeah, I think so. We're talking about like two grams of tortilla here. Okay, yes. You've taken it home. You've carried it home carefully. This is, I know, you're like a wounded bird and you put it in your fridge. In my fridge. I know you're germ-adverse too. This is probably doubly horrifying for you. But then I take it out of the fridge, chop it. Okay. Fry it up in a little oil so those tortilla bits start to crisp and then I beat some eggs and I pour them on top and I make what we call stump eggs. Wow. Yeah. There's a lot. I mean, you have a family of stumps or is it just one stump? Because you're all gone to get burritos or what? I think the rest of my family will eat the stump. Please tell me this is in your cookbook. Stump eggs. This is in my cookbook. Sadly, no. But that's a freebie. This is a bonus recipe. Bonus recipe. There you go. We'll put it in the stump stack. It shares something with, I don't know, maybe it's like a relative of like megas, right? Well, I was thinking, there's a lot of wonderful things you can do with tortillas and eggs. And you're like, that's not one of them. Adding to the, I want to say the pantheon. Is that the right word? Yeah, the pantheon of egg and tortilla things. Well, so, you know, I don't know, this could be a minority opinion about the stump. But yeah, I think this is less about your opinion and more about. I just want to give people this free idea. Your commitment to thrift is admirable. You know what? I'm just confused and I'm like worried about you and like all these, but then I'm like seeing you realizing, you know, like in my household, there is a phrase that my husband uses called the David piece, which like these little pieces that I keep on everything. Oh. And I want to use them in a very stump way. I like how you're acting like that. So I actually think that I'm really into this. Yeah, it took you a long time to reveal this David piece. I know, I know, I'm going to, it's a bit feigning shock. What are you going to, are you going to use any of your David pieces in your, your bakes this week? What are you going to bake? Well, I might. All this talk about corn tortillas and masa reminded me that one of my favorite things to do with masa is not a tortilla, but tortilla as, which is a masa arena pancake recipe for on the site. It's a mix of AP flour, you know, wheat flour and masa arena. So flavorful and I just, I love pancakes. And so this is like a, another one to add. So I will be making masa arena pancakes and yeah, I'm going to be shopping up. Tortilla stops and putting them in there. Why don't you do that? Do you do them? You eat them like with the sweet topping? Like, you know what? I, um, I actually really like a pancake just with butter. Is that weird? Yeah. Like, and I kind of just eat them standing. Yeah. And I usually make, because I'm making the batch, you know, and then by the time like they're done, like I've already eaten like three pancakes. Yeah. And I put the rest in my freezer and I kind of toast them as I do. You know, it's just not the first time this season that I've talked about pancakes. No. You know, so I really like a pancake and I like it as like a quick thing I can toast. Sometimes I'll dip it in maple syrup. I don't usually do a savory though. No, it would be good with like a swipe of blueberry jam on it though. Cause I think corn, like masa and blueberries, we have a, a, um, coffee cake on our site that combines masa and blueberries. Oh yeah. Yeah. Actually the recipe on that I'm talking about does include a blueberry sauce. Oh yeah. That sounds nice. I'm going to do, I'm going to make our lemon tiramisu. Oh. Which it has been, I've been, I've been, I've been marketed to by King Arthur and it's working cause I have been seeing this lemon tiramisu and it just seems like, I mean, we've been talking a lot about what you do in this shoulder season. I mean, okay, Californians, if we have any California listeners, this is not for you. Like you're already eating strawberries and you can keep quiet about it. No, we're in full stick season. But we're in stick season. We're like, it's no, there's no rhubarb. You're like, what are we going to do? Is this stick season or is this much season? I mean, it's just terrible. That's what it is. It's stick season. I, whatever. Yeah. I mean, it's still bleak. It's still winter. There's still no fresh stuff, but the lemon tiramisu gives you like, you know, a sort of like suggestion of brighter days. So it, um, substitutes limoncello where you would use, you know, like for the inside of an espresso liqueur, it still has the mascarpone layer. It still has the ladyfingers. And then there's lemon curd in there. It uses a recipe for lemon curd that's made in the microwave, which is a genius recipe, like on its own to just have around. But that looks really delicious and pretty. And I think it might just get me through these next few weeks. So I'm going to try it out. Call me. Come over, come over and have tiramisu. Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers. No, we're going to be back next week. We're talking about croissant. Oh, that's going to be a bad one for me and my pronunciation. Oh, no. I know. I feel like croissant, croissant which people want to know how to unlock croissants at home and we're going to, we're going to help them. They sure do. Yeah. Yeah. Something I've never done. So I would not be very much help next week. But as always, we appreciate the listeners listening. We appreciate the callers calling. Keep it up. Remember to please give us a like, give us a subscribe on Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to podcasts so you know when the next episode drops. And leave us a review while you're there. Share the episode with a friend. Tell your friends about us. We want to hear from you. Yeah. And in the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. Follow the recipe. Things Bakers know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Timorkin. And me, Jessica Badalana. Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Shani is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Thanks again to Patty Hinnich for appearing on today's episode. You can learn more about her and her work at pattyhinnich.com. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.