Why Habits Feel Hard with Charles Duhigg

Okay, parents, quick check in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule, except your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time, school emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head, usually moms. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. It's a smart touch screen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain, schedules, chores, meals, grocery lists, and puts it in one place where the whole family can actually see it and participate. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it, and you can color code each family member. So there's a lot less, wait, I didn't know in your house. Plus with the free Skylight companion app, you can add or update events, lists, and more on the go. And I appreciate this. If after 120 days, you're not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Right now, you can get $30 off a 15-inch Skylight calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky. That's m-y-sk-y-ly-ght.com slash Becky. It's the new year. And I know for me, this is the time of year that I do from a place of empowerment, not pressure. Think about habits. Think about small things I want to shift. And so there just couldn't be a better time to have a conversation with Charles DuHig. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. He is the author of the power of habit and super communicators. But before you get any ideas about, oh, this is going to feel heavy. This is going to feel impossible. One more thing to make me feel like I'm not doing enough. No, us parents, we do not have time for that. Charles is someone I've gotten to know over the last couple of years. And he talks about habits and communication in a way that feels new and empowering and makes you have the thought, oh, that's simple. I can do that today. And that's why I love talking to him and I love the conversation you're about to hear. This episode is about starting the year with intention, but not morality intention, not perfect intention. Just the intention of there might be one small thing I want to change. That will make the rest of my year better. And I think that's something we could all use. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Charles. Hey, how are you? Oh, good. I've been waiting for this conversation because it's so much overlap. And whenever I hear you speak, it just crystallizes things that have been floating around for me, but living without an organized way of putting things together and moving at forward. And I'm just so grateful for your work and how practical it is. It's always so much fun to talk to you. I'm so excited to be able to do it on tape. That's even better because I get to review it sometime. Exactly. Okay. So we're going to go in a bunch of different directions, but let's start here. You spent years studying habits, studying communication, and you're a dad. So what I want to start with is how has seriously your experience around fatherhood impacted the way you think about habits and communication? That's a great question. And I think in every way possible. So I've two boys. They're 14 and 17 years old. And as you know, once you have kids, like you have all these grand theories before you become a parent, right? Like this is how I'm going to raise my kids. And this is what they're going to be like. And I'm never going to do this thing that my parents did. And then that falls apart. Like that falls apart immediately. It's like once you experience the fog of war, all your plans, plans fall, go out the window. But I will say the thing that I've tried to do again and again and again is I've tried to make them feel like they have power over these things that often have we feel powerless about, right? Like when it comes to habits, people often feel powerless over their habits, over changing their habits or creating better habits. And that's often because they don't just don't understand how habits work, right? They don't understand the neuroscience of habits and how to change them in our lives. Communication oftentimes, you know, I, um, one of my kids at one point, there was someone that he, it was a girl and he really wanted to like sort of connect with her. And he was like every time I talked to her, it just, it feels like there's like, we can't connect. And I was like, you know, actually, that's totally normal. And I know that you that feels frustrating to you. But there's a science behind how communication works. And if you learn it, then these things that seem like big mysteries suddenly become tools that you can use. So that's the thing. I'm not sure I'm a great dad and I'm not trying to give them the right lessons. But I think the lessons I give them are, there are things in your life that feel out of your control that aren't incredibly within your control once you understand them. And that's what I've tried to do with books and with parenting. But what I love about that, and this is where we probably have a lot of overlap, is so much of what's hard, we think about the moment or the behavior, right? Or I take kids, oh, my kids are rude, they're having these tantrums. Or I don't know how to talk to girls, whatever it is. And we focus on these behaviors. But so much at the core is actually the confusion. Like I find with parents and it's interesting because this happens all the time where a kid isn't sleeping for various reasons that a parent hasn't gotten sleeping forever, calling out middle of the night. And it's interesting as an example, they take our sleep course and they go, I feel like a million bucks. You haven't even seen your kid yet and nothing's changed. Why do you feel better? But you know what that proves to me? It wasn't the lack of sleeping. Not to say that's not a problem. It's the confusion. And when you understand and when you have clarity, you have this hopefulness and energy boost and that's often the missing piece. And so tell me about that in terms of, let's start with habits because you said something I wrote it down. People just don't understand how habits work. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I don't understand how habits work. I'm one of those people. So explain it to me. And then let's bring it back actually to maybe how that has helped with parenting or helped your kids or can help people here. Absolutely. So the thing that most important thing to realize is and we're living through this golden age of a understanding habit formation because of advances in neuroscience and data collection. The most important thing to understand is that we think of a habit as being one thing, but actually a habit is made up of three different parts. The first part is that there's a queue, which is like a trigger for an automatic behavior to start. And when that queue, when we encounter that queue, we might not even recognize that we've encountered a queue, but our brain, particularly the part of our brain known as the basal ganglia, sees that queue and it says, oh, I know what to do right now and I'm going to make it happen automatically. And that gets to the second part. So the queue, then the routine, which is the behavior, right? The thing that we think of as a habit, the thing that Oprah talks about and Aristotle talks about, the routine is the behavior that we actually do. And when we do that routine, it delivers the third part of this habit loop, which is the reward. Every habit in your life delivers to you a reward, whether you're aware of it or not. And there's a venez research done by Wendy Wood out of USC, who has found that about 40 to 45% of what we do every day is a habit, right? We think of it as a decision, but it's actually this process of seeing a queue automatically doing the behavior, the routine, and then receiving a reward for that. When you back your car out of your driveway and you don't really have to think about it, you do it on habit now. When you make it safely into the street, there's a small dopamine release in your brain that creates a reward sensation. Now, you're not aware of this and you don't pay any attention to it, but your basal ganglia does. And it says, okay, I like this reward. Next time I need to back the car to the driveway, I'm just going to make it easier and easier and more and more automatic because it's an easy way for me to get this reward. And so what we know is that focusing on the routine, that's one way to change a habit, but that's the hardest way. An easier way is to focus on the queue and the reward and let the behavior sort of unfold from there. Okay, I'm going to share with you something that I do in my house and I have to be honest, I'm just going to pat myself a little on the back for this one. Okay, which I don't always do, but I feel like without realizing, did I do this? Okay, so I go back however many years for my 14 year old, like why is he never classic picking his towel off the ground? Like, it just triggers me for some reason. It tells me the story that my child doesn't appreciate anything if he doesn't do this, whatever, that's my trigger. And I know maybe this is cute. I want to have certain roles with my son forever. When he's really going through something hard, I want to be one of the people he can call, but towel, remember, it's just not high on my list, okay? I don't know about you. It's just I can do other things at my time. No, I sympathize entirely. All right, I mean, we're busy people, Charles. So like, I know so many times if I think about it with your language, the queue for our kids, for the towels or the water bottles is us telling them or us doing it. And I always say to parents, don't lock yourself into a job. You are trying to work your way out of the math, doesn't math. So one of the things I did when he was young, as I said, you know what, it's been really hard to remember to pick up your towel. Something's happening, you're a smart kid, you're a good kid, but it keeps not happening. I wonder how you could remember. And he's like, I don't know. And then I like, I feel like somebody's got to bring them to water. I was like, I literally said, I just wish there was like a type of no that had sticky qualities that you could like put on the wall. Okay. And he goes, I post it. And I literally was like, oh my goodness. And then he goes, can you write it for me? And that's where I got started. I was like, no way. I was like, I'm not going to do something for you. I know you could do for yourself. You could write it. And I kind of sat with him. He wrote something. It was like towel. He put it by his door. And the first couple of times he did it, all I said was like, I noticed you picked up your towel. Thank you. So I'm just trying to back into that. I love this. And I go through the exact same thing with my kids leaving their dishes on the table in front of the TV. It makes me absolutely insane. So okay. So what I love about this is that not only were you teaching him to develop a better new habit, you were teaching him how habits work. And that's really powerful, right? You were giving him some insight into the structure. So the cue, obviously, is he sees that note, that post it that says towel, right? And that's become what's amazing about cues is that at first we noticed them and then we stopped noticing them, but they still work. Again, because our brain, our brain is a cognitive miser, right? That basil ganglia, it wants to make everything into a habit and uses little energy as possible. And so when it sees that note, it makes it into a cue that will notice, even if we don't notice that we're noticing it. So that's a cue. The routine is he goes and he picks up his towel. And then the best part is you gave him a reward and you gave him the most powerful kind of reward, which is that you gave him an emotional reward. We know that emotional rewards are anywhere from 10 to 100 times more powerful than some kind of material reward or transactional reward. Wait, sorry. We do not know that. Like you know that I did not know that. So can you say that again? Humanity knows that like the most powerful rewards are always emotional rewards. And so if you were to say your son, hey, look, every time I walk into your room and I notice there's not a towel in there, I'm going to give you a dollar. He would like that, right? He would probably start paying attention, but it would wear off after a little while. But if when you know, when you notice him picking up the towel, you say, look, I just want to let you know. Thank you. Like I'm so proud of you. Like you're becoming such a mature young man. That is like gold. And frankly, he's going to remember that for years, right? We all remember when our parents told us that we were suddenly mature and we felt so good about ourselves. So you created the habit loop perfectly. You helped him find a cue. You guys specified what the routine is. You delivered to him a reward. And that's really powerful. The other aspect of this is that we can also think in terms of how do we create negative rewards, right? And I don't use the word punishment because it's not really a punishment. We should think of it as a negative reward. So my kids, when they leave their dishes out, we sit down and I say, look, let's go through what we've talked about before. Every time I stand up from the couch, I'm going to think to myself, are there dishes in front of me? And if there are dishes in front of you, the routine should be take them to the sink. And you should, and like if you do this, I appreciate it. I will definitely let you know how much I appreciate it. Those times, though, that I noticed that you've forgotten. What I'm going to do is I'm going to, no matter where you are in the house, no matter if you're out with your friends, I'm going to call you or text you and say, can you please come back and put your dishes away? Now, the reason why this is, this isn't a punishment. This is a, a negative reward is because it's giving them an opportunity to repair the situation in a way that is meaningful to and so when we think about using negative reinforcement punishments, I think a much better, and you're the expert on this, I'd be really curious your thoughts. I think the much better way to structure this is to say, here's an opportunity to repair the situation because once you do, I'm going to give you all those rewards that you so justly deserve. Oh, now you're really going to be going, Charles, and these are things I never thought about. But here's my response. I think we all know whether someone's doing something to us or for us. I just think as humans, you feel the difference even if the intervention is the same. If I take phones, let's say I have a new rule that my kid can't see, but they're phone in their room. Let's just take that. The intervention can look the same. A kid will feel whether you are doing that same thing on the surface to them or for them, which I think relates, punishment is something you do to someone. You do it to someone. It's doing it in the mindset of like, I don't really like this person in the moment. I'm doing this to them. They're my enemy. The very same thing could be done from a very different mindset and intention. I'm doing this for them. So I take the phone example. Look, you've been on your phone at night. I told you you can't. I'm taking it. Is this so bad for your brain? I don't care what you have to say. Like, okay, like I can do that, but I can tell you how that would feel. Like I don't even hear what you're saying. All I feel is you think I'm a bad person. You kind of hate me right now and you're vomiting your own frustration on me. Like, okay, versus, hey, I want to tell you about a decision I've made. Starting tonight, you're not going to have your phone in your room. And I want to tell you why I have learned new information about how important sleep is. And the other thing I don't know if I've even said to you directly is my number one job is often to make decisions that I believe are good for you long term, even if you don't like them. And that's actually a sign of how much I love you. It actually comes even if it doesn't feel like that from protecting you. And that's where this decision comes from. I just feel like it's the same as what you're saying, which is you want to set up your kids to be responsible individuals who don't think a clean house just happens magically. And who they have impact and responsibility, you believe that is that's in your value system. It's part of your job in small moments. And one of the moments that matters to you, it could be a million. Someone being like, I have to make my kids clear their play. I personally agree. But there's a million ways to do that. And if that's one of your methods, one of the reasons you're saying, hey, I noticed you didn't clear it. I'd like you to come back and do it. It's actually because you think you're doing that for them. That's exactly right. And I think we can even take it a step further and have our kids identify that reward. When you say to your kid, I'm going to take the phone out of the room and say, just had curiosity, when you wake up in the morning after really good night's sleep, do you feel better that day? And of course they're going to say yes. And when I ask my kids, like when you come home and the house is so clean and it's so relaxing, how does that, how does that hit you? And what's interesting is my younger son, whose room is a disaster, he'll say something like, you know, actually, I don't care that there's clothes all over the floors in my room. But when I'm in the living room, it's nice when everything's kind of like put away, right? Like it's just kind of relaxing. And what I love about that is that they're identifying rewards for themselves. They're saying, look, this reward of cleanliness, it doesn't, doesn't work in my room, which is fine because I never go in their room and that can be as messy as they want it to be. But it does work. This is a reward that I'm acknowledging as a reward in the rest of the house. And so therefore, I'm seeing myself and this gets us to something that's kind of important that we know about rewards, which is recognizing a reward as a reward actually makes it more rewarding. So and this kind of makes sense when you think about it. If, if you eat a salad today instead of eating an unhealthy sandwich, you'll feel okay about yourself. But if after eating that salad, you say to yourself, you know what? I like, I'm going to go brag to my husband tonight that I didn't eat the unhealthy sandwich. I ate the salad. That makes the reward even more rewarding. The salience of a reward expands when we recognize it as a reward. So the more that we help our kids recognize those rewards, the more we're empowering them to be in control of their behavior. Charles, I love talking to people just like you who say something in a totally different way. And there's like this vibing. So what I call that is the difference between the experience and the story you tell yourself or the experience and the rapper. So let's say inside the candy is what happened. But the rapper really really impacts how you experience the candy. And even if the candy is good, the rapper matters. The rapper even to tell yourself I'm proud of that decision. It's something that's going to make me feel good next week. Already is going to make the thing feel better. And in the absence of a story, you don't know the story. Your body's telling yourself. It might be saying no story at all, which means you're kind of depriving yourself of the experience of feeling rewarded. That's exactly it. Or you're leaving it up to chance, right? And the thing about habit formation is that we think of it as something that happens to us. We think of it as chance. I grew up this way. And so I have these habits, where I was unlucky enough to start smoking at one point. And so I have these habits. But what we know is that habits are not something that happened to us. Habits are something that once we understand how they work, we have the control to create and to change. There is someone on this planet who gave up smoking yesterday and will never have another cigarette. There is someone who went on a diet today and they're going to lose 25 pounds over the next 12 months. Anyone can change their habit. We just have to understand how they work so that we know which gears to fiddle with. Yeah. And the other thing I just want to add, especially for parents listening, because I love this idea of Q Habit reward. But there's a part of it. I'm curious to your reaction, okay? Because sometimes we talk to our kids about not having the phone in the room or clearing their plate. And they're like, I don't care. I don't care if my room's clean. I don't feel better in that morning. And I do think, and I think I've seen this from working with so many kids and teens in my practice, that there is a reward that you might never hear from your kid or you won't hear for 10, 20 years. The feeling a kid has when they feel like a parent is protecting their long-term interest despite their protest and tantrums, which are all things they need to do, especially as they get older, just to say I'm my own person. But the comfort in their body when they go to bed, and they have a half-smile thinking, my parent believes in me, my parents holding me to a higher standard, my parent is holding boundaries and is protecting me. I think there's a type of reward there as a parent that you might never explicitly get validation for. But I just know from so many teens, it is there and we kind of have to trust that as an adult. That's absolutely right. And I think your definition of something we do for someone and they won't thank us for 10 or 20 years is like the perfect definition of being a parent's right. But to your point, the science actually says you're exactly right. And I mentioned that the most powerful rewards are almost always emotional rewards. Within the emotional rewards, there's actually one kind of reward that oftentimes is more powerful than anything else. And that is relieving tension. So if I can take tension away from you, that feels so good. And when I go to a kid, exactly what you just described, when I go to a kid and I say, I'm going to protect you. Even if you don't like the protection, you know that I'm doing this for your benefit. You know that this is something that someday you might you might appreciate. What I'm doing is I'm creating a sense of safety. I'm removing the tension from their life that all of us feel including kids. And when I remove that tension, I'm giving them a reward that feels incredibly powerful and incredibly rewarding to them. Now, just a quick clarification. I don't think you're talking up it to clarify for anyone listening. So that means when my kid's sad, my job is to make them happy. No, not at all. Right. Because sadness isn't tension, right? Sadness is actually an emotion. And sometimes it can be a positive emotion. We all know those times that you, when you're a kid and you broke up with someone and it hurt, but it also felt like you were really alive and you're growing up, tension is very, very unique to tension. And what it means is something that is causing me some level of anxiety, some level of discomfort that I can see no positive aspect to. Right. So think about when you're thinking about a conversation you want to have and it's a tough conversation. You want to tell your sister about something or you want to tell your spouse about something and you're thinking like, I don't want to have this conversation. In that moment, there is a lot of emotions. One of them is like concern and one of them is love and one of them is and there's also a little bit of tension. Like I just don't want to have this conversation. If you remove that tension, it does not change any of the other emotions. You're still going to go into that conversation saying, I want this person to know I love them and I'm worried how they're going to react and but taking the tension away almost always makes it easier and better for you. And we've all felt this, right? I have a crazy question for you. I don't know if you've considered it because what you're talking about seems adjacent to something I talked to parents about a lot because I don't want every parent to listen listening. No, what I stand for, what good inside stands for is we help kids cope with emotions not run away or become fragile around us them, which is unfortunately where I do think so many things in the parenting world have over corrected to I have to take away their distress. My kids not invited to a party. I create a better party for that. My kid is worried they're not going to be with their best friend in class. So I call the school in demand. Even though the best thing would be that your kid is not with that friend and they learn even after a hard time that they can cope, right? But one of the things I think about Charles is we can't often remove the hard, but we can remove the alone. And when you sit with your kid in their emotion, it's not to change the emotion. It's actually to change the alone. And I'm curious when you talk about tension. I'm nervous. I'm talking to my sister and I'm not going to change my nervousness. I'm not going to change my sadness. But when you talk about the tension because I picture someone saying to me, Becky, you're right. It's going to be a hard conversation. There's no way around that, but you can do it. You're going to feel better after. I feel like in the removing the tension, they're kind of removing the aloneness I was feeling. And I don't know if that's in line with anything you're saying. Yeah. No, it is. It's oftentimes aloneness and uncertainty. Like when we talk about tension, the reason why tension isn't sadness, it's tension isn't that feeling you get when you do when you don't get invited to the party. That's not tension. What tension is is the uncertainty whether you're going to get invited to that party or that uncertainty. Did they not invite me because they don't like me or did they not invite me because I smell bad, right? And by the way, if there's two other people who didn't get invited, and I like them a lot, now suddenly I'm not alone in that. I've actually resolved to the uncertainty and resolved that tension as a result. Doesn't mean that I'm happy with it. Doesn't mean that I'm not going to get that post-traumatic growth that comes from having hard experiences as a kid, but it does mean that I understand what lesson I'm supposed to learn from this and that I feel like I have learned it, particularly in the company of others. Yes. So beautiful. You know those weeks in winter when everyone just feels unedged, the dark, the cold, the being cooped up, it all adds up. Kids are arguing, routines are off and you catch yourself thinking, okay, we might need reset. Look, nothing fancy or dramatic, just a little break from the norm. When I feel that way, I check out Airbnb. I'll filter for a cozy spot, a living room where we can actually relax. Maybe a snowy view, maybe a fireplace if we're lucky. On a recent family trip, that change of scenery made such a difference. Having space to settle in, be together and step out of our usual routine helped us all reset and breathe a little easier. And something I really appreciate while we're away, we could host our home on Airbnb. So it doesn't sit empty and earns us a little extra income to put toward our next trip. But the thought of handling everything that comes with hosting sounds overwhelming. And that's where Airbnb's co-host network comes in. You can hire a vetted local co-host to help manage everything from check-ins, guest communication and on-site support so each stay run smoothly. It's a simple practical way to earn some extra income without adding more to your plate. If you're ready to host but want some support, find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. You have so much expertise. I want to switch even though it's all related, we have habits and communication. I love your book, but I just love the title of the book. Super communicators. I just, I'm like, who doesn't want to be a super communicator? Yes, sign me up. So I would love to hear what rises to the top when you think about communication. And I think here we're really communicating with other adults, communicating with kids. What are some of the most important things you've learned that really, really make a difference? Yeah. And there's actually one thing in particular because communication is just a set of skills. Being a super communicator, it's just a set of skills that can be practiced and learned by anyone. But the central idea that we have that neuroscience has led us to is that when you're having a discussion with someone, you think you know what that discussion is about. You think you're talking about, you know, how that test go today or where should we go on vacation next year or if you're at work, here's the, my numbers for next month's, for next month's budget. But actually, if we can look inside your brain, which we can now do as you're having a conversation, what we'll see is that during that discussion, you are having multiple different kinds of conversations that are using different parts of your brain. And in general, they tend to fall into one of three buckets. There are these practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems together. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize with me. I want you to tell me that you understand. And then the third bucket is these social conversations about how you and I relate to each other, how I relate to society, the sense of self identities that are important to me. And what researchers have found is that all three of these kinds of conversations are all equally important. And in a discussion, all three of them will probably happen. But if you and I are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we will not hear each other, not fully. And most importantly, we will not feel connected to each other. And this is given rise to what's known as the matching principle, which says that successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. And then once we're aligned, once we're in sync, we can move from emotional to practical and then to social and back to emotional together. And even if we disagree with each other, we're going to feel connected. We'll really hear each other. That's the most important idea. It's almost like you're saying, I'm making this up. There's more language. I have English, I've Spanish and I have Mandarin. If you're talking Mandarin to Spanish, that's not great. No language is superior, but you've got to be talking the same language. That's exactly right. And it's because those different conversations, they use different parts of our brains. And if our brains aren't kind of becoming, it's known as neural entrainment. If our brains aren't becoming more and more similar during our conversation, it's very hard for us to feel like we're connecting. So let me ask you this. I'm going to go over a couple common things and you're going to break it down from your super communicator lens. Let's just start before we get to kids. We'll talk about a married, partnered couple with kids, classic argument. Okay. You said you'd be home to do bath time. Hey, I was at work. Someone has to make money around here. You expect me to do everything. You don't do anything around here. Oh, do anything. Are you sitting around doing taxes? Okay. Just going to pause. Break that down for me. I love this conversation because here's exactly what's happening. And I think as soon as I say it, everyone will recognize this as in their own lives. When I'm in, I let's say it's the wife who's saying, you're supposed to come home and do bath time and it's the husband who is at work. What the wife is saying is, I want to have an emotional conversation. I'm upset. Right? I'm upset and I'm angry and I probably feel a little bit devalued. I need you to hear that I am upset. And what the husband responds with is a practical conversation. I was at work. I had work to do. Like, this isn't something that I chose to do. This is something that's necessary. And then she responds by saying, you know, like, like, you don't do anything around here. Again, I feel like you're not recognizing my value. I feel hurt that you're not recognizing me. I feel this is an emotional conversation. And he responds by saying, well, I don't see you doing the taxes. Another practical response, right? Like, I don't, it doesn't matter how you feel because like the taxes got to get done. These two people are having completely different conversations. And as a result, they're making each other angrier and crazier. Now, imagine for a minute that you come home and someone says, you were supposed to do bath time and like you weren't here and you say, you know what? Look, there's a good reason I wasn't here. But before I go into that, I just, I hear that you are frustrated and you're completely right to be frustrated. I totally understand. Like, this is completely legitimate. If I was in your shoes, I would also be frustrated. I'm frustrated myself because I was looking forward to bath time. And what's really important to me is that we both feel valued in this relationship. Now, let me tell you why I wasn't here. It's because we had this meeting at work that I couldn't miss. In other words, I'm going to respond. I'm going to match this emotional conversation you're having. And I'm going to ask you for permission to move to a practical conversation together. Right? Can I tell you why I wasn't here? There's a practical reason for that. And what I love to change is everything. One of the things I think about is another thought about it with communication, but it applies. So, and I'm a very visual learner, I guess. But let's say these people are in different planets. And one partner is on emotional need planet. The other person is on practical planet. And I think what we do is we're like, come to my planet, come to my planet, come to my planet. And everyone's just more entrenched in their planet. But when the first person moves in your situation, it was the partner saying, okay, hold on. This is actually an emotional thing. My partner probably needs, well, you felt really alone in bath time again. And like the fact that I didn't tell you I was staying home, staying at work late, probably felt really bad. I picture Charles, like that person leaves their practical planet. And they have a bridge there because they walked over there. But also what's interesting is now that I'm like lingering as a partner in the emotional world. We have a connection, but because I form that bridge, like it's more possible for us both to walk back to the practical globe. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And exactly what you're saying is we know this from a neuroscientific perspective. When we look at how people think, I mentioned this thing, neural entrainment. The goal of communication is actually for a simultaneous neural activity. And exactly as you put, if I make a bridge to you and I try and show that I want to think like you're thinking, you become so much more likely to follow that bridge back to my planet. And say, thank you for doing that. Now I'm going to come visit how you think we're going to become a line. Okay, I'm going to give you another one. Okay, I love it. Okay, so I just took my kids a holiday break, you know, I'm trying to figure out what to do and some time off. So I take them out to breakfast. I take them ice skating. We stop on the way home for ice cream. I'm like, I can I believe how much money I just spend on these things. But I'm joking. Okay, we get home. And my kid says, can I watch TV? And I say some version of, no, sweetie, we're going to have some downtime. You're the worst mom in the world. We never do anything fun in this family. Okay, parents is bad. We never do anything fun. You should have seen what was like when I was growing up, I spent my vacation sitting on a floor playing with a stick. Okay, okay. And you know how much I just spent on you literally. Literally. Okay, so break this down. The kid is coming home and the parents saying something practical. Like look like your grandmother's here and we haven't seen her all day. I want you to go spend a little bit of time with her before we watch TV where I want you to spend some time with yourself and like do some reading because that's important. And the kids are responding by saying, I feel angry and I feel like I don't have agency. And the parent instead of saying, I hear you, they're saying, you know what? You don't even deserve agency. When I was a kid, I didn't have any agency. You've got so much more agency than that. Well, can I, I want to jump in for a second because I Charles, you did something. I mean it. So sophisticated, but I want to break it down because the kids didn't I agree with you. Because by the way, forget kids, we all do this on our own lives. Our kids said, you're the worst mom. There's nothing fun to do. But what you did so quickly and I just want to make sure people hear this, you're so aware and it's so right developmentally. That's not really what a kid saying. Don't get me wrong. That, that, those are the words. But what a kid is probably really feeling internally but doesn't have the skills or maturity to actually say, but they are trying to say is I have a period of pause. I'm not sure what to do with that. I don't like that I'm someone who doesn't get to choose how I spend my time. I don't like feeling done too. Right now, I think a lot of us, if we're honest or like, am I always able to sophisticatedly say that to someone? Hold on a sec. Right. We also say things in a much more escalated hyperbolic way. But I think what you did was I just want you to break it down further because you translated something that your kid said into what's really happening. I think that's exactly right. And I think it's a really astute observation is that the words coming out of their mouth often don't tell us what they're really saying. It's instead looking out the whole package and seeing and remembering. So the question is, what's the solution for this? Well, this is actually the second skill that super communicators have, which is when our kid tells us, I feel angry and I feel like I don't have any agency and I feel like, like, you know, what we need to do at that moment is we need to listen to what they're saying. And then we need to show them that we have listened to what they're saying. We have to prove that we're listening. There's actually a technique that they teach it like business in business schools and law schools called looping for understanding for this. And they say, look, if you're in a really, if you're in a high conflict conversation, you should loop for understanding, which means I'm going to start by asking you a question, right? If you're if you're feeling furious, get curious. I'm going to ask you a question. And hopefully it's going to be something that's known as a deep question that asks you about your values or your beliefs, your experiences. And we can talk more about what those are. But I'm just step one is I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to say to the kid, look, I see that you're really upset right now. Tell me a little bit about why you're feeling upset. Like what are you feeling? I'm going to listen to what they say. And then step two is, I'm going to repeat back in my own words what I heard them say. It sounds to me like what you're saying is you really want to watch TV and you're tired. And you feel frustrated because you felt like last, yesterday I didn't let you watch TV. And today I'm not letting you watch TV again. And that makes you that makes you feel like I don't I don't value you enough. That's step two. I repeated back in my own words, but I heard you say step three. And most of us do step one or step two kind of intuitively. It's step three that I always forget. Step three is ask if you got it right. Did I hear you correctly? Did I hear what you said? Because in that moment when I ask you if if I got it right, what I'm really asking is for your permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge that I was listening to you, you become much more likely to listen to me in return. Bridge, that's the bridge. That's the bridge. That's the bridge. And so I think in that situation where those kids, when the when the mom says, what you've got it so good, I used to sit on the floor. I didn't have anything to do. I just spent so much money on you. If the mom takes just a break, if you're feeling furious, get curious and says, honey, I want to understand more. Tell me what you're feeling right now. Use your words to tell me what you feel. And I'm going to prove to you that I'm paying attention. And I'm going to show you that I'm listening. That kid is going to be willing to listen in return when you say, I want to let you watch TV, but not right now because I feel like we all need to calm down and you want to spend some time with your grandmother. That that takes all of the again, the tension out of the conversation. It's the same conversation. We're still doing the same thing. We, our kids still might think we're the worst parent on earth and that we don't know what we're doing, but we've taken the tension out of the conversation and we feel like we're connected to each other, even if we disagree. There's a couple of things I want to add on. So that's just so helpful what you just said. Number one, this is true for kids and adults. We all escalate the expression of our communication when we don't feel believed at the core. All of us, it's like, that's why going back to the couples, suddenly I'm saying to my husband, you don't help with anything. I don't actually think that's true. I don't even realize I'm saying that, but it's going to get more escalated because at the core, I need him to say, I didn't come home at 530 and I said I would and that probably felt bad. Right? And so when we don't feel believed, we all escalate. So I just want to take this out of just the kid realm. Like sometimes it's helpful. I find with my kids think in what situation would I be doing something very similar to my kid? Right? Oh, and when you think about it that way, when would I say something extreme? I feel desperate. I feel overwhelmed. I'm exhausted. I don't feel believed in the first place. That's number one. Number two, I hear parents thinking and I get this. Dr. Becky Charles, this is like a lot of time. This is a lot of work. You know, and it's not, I don't want to, I'm not going to pretend there's some quick fix to parenting and leadership. Like that's just the hardest job in the world. But I don't want us to forget how much time we spend arguing about things where we're not really communicating. Like that argument with my kid will take me three minutes. I will then have to recover. I will go to bed literally not going to sleep for half an hour, part of my language because I feel like shit about myself and I feel so disconnected. That's a lot of time. I just don't account for it as time because it's just part of my daily rhythm. And so a small shift, which again, some kids aren't going to tell you how they feel. But I want to give parents listening. Even being able to say to yourself, maybe there's more to the story under the words. Maybe this is escalated. Again, I always come back to maybe I have a good kid having a hard time right now. And I don't even know why. But if I just see my kid as a good kid having a hard time versus a bad kid doing bad spoiled things, the whole thing becomes a little, I can reduce some of the tension. I think in that moment. That's exactly right. I think that's really, really wise. And I think one of the things that's happening there is, you know, to bring it back to habits is that when we stop and we say, this is a good kid having a bad moment, what we're engaging there is a habit that helps us think more deeply. And it turns out that many of the most valuable habits are what are known as cognitive routines. And their whole goal is to get us to think more deeply, to take just half a second to think a little bit more. But particularly when thinking is hard, particularly when we're angry or when we feel panicked or we feel stressed or our kid just yelled at us and we feel like they're so ungrateful, these little habits that we can develop that get us to, it's a good kid having a bad moment. It just slows us down just enough to remember who we actually are and what we actually want to do. So good. Okay, ready for rapid fire? You just stretch. I love it. I love it. Okay, here we go. First question. One misconception people have about what it means to be a good communicator. That some people are born great communicators and some people aren't. And it turns out that is not true at all. It doesn't matter if you're an introvert and extrovert. It doesn't matter if you're college educator, not college educated. The best communicators are simply people who think a little bit more about communication. Who think to themselves, how could I have made that better? That's it. I just want to double down on that because it's so interesting. I think parents have that, especially moms, maternal instinct. I'm born knowing how to do this. Why can't this be a skill like anything else we do? Right? So same thing with communication. And if it was one of our kids and we told them to use good table manners and then the next meal they didn't use good table manners, we wouldn't say, oh, you're a broken kid because clearly you should have been born knowing how to do table manners. No, we say, actually, I got to tell you this like 10 or 12 or 15 or 1000 times before it actually takes root. So why not give that same grace to ourselves? And you have to learn. That's right. And I think just I love this idea that with parenting, with communication, thinking about it as a skill takes the shame out of learning. I love that. Okay. Next one. What is the habit you're actively working on as a parent? So my 17 year old is applying to college and he's about to leave out into the world right. He's going to be an adult and it is I have such a strong instinct to like be his dad and solve his problems and be like, when he brings something up to be like, you know, what you want to do is or here's in and I want my relationship as he becomes more and more of an adult to be healthier and healthier. And the only way I can do that is by treating him more and more like an equal and appear rather than a pupil, right? And so I'm constantly trying to remind myself that when he tells me something I should so curiosity about it rather than try and help him solve it. So hard. The kind of I always say the things we need in our back pocket for any time a kid comes to us as if the first thing you say to them is just, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. Tell me more. Like that's it. But Charles, I have to tell you, I talk a good game to you in a podcast. So it's like, you know, let's just like be real about how play it but that sounds good. But let's both we're going to try that a little more often. I love it. Super communicators tend to do what early in a challenging heated conversation. They ask more questions. And what we know is that again, we're all super communicators at one time or another, but some people are consistent super communicators and consistent super communicators ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the average person. And some of those questions are just invitations, right? It's like, oh, what you think about that or oh, did you see that movie? What you think? But some of the questions as I mentioned before are these things that are known as deep questions. And a deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet someone as a doctor instead of saying, oh, what medical school did you go to asking them, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right? That second question invites them to tell me who they are. Super communicators ask those questions. Can I tell you something about what I think, how I think of his questions and you're going to hear it's another visual? I think about questions as roads. You ask someone to walk down with you. And it's interesting to think about what medical school did you go to? It's a very short road. Yeah. I don't know. I went to school. It's okay. It's not, I don't even, it'd be generous to call it a road. What's leading you up these days? What led you to met to discover medicine? Like you can take a kind of long walk on that road, which means like it's all you're going to get to know someone, which I think a lot about the questions we ask to our kids, right? Like what grade did you get? It kind of tells them what road you want to walk down versus like tell me about recess. What you do, and again, there's no better or worse. And I don't want a parent thing. I'm not supposed to talk about grades. Bad road. No, there's no rigidity. But if you think about a question as a road where you're forming a relationship with someone, it gives a different shape to a question. I love that. I love that. And I think we all know, it's such a powerful metaphor to think about this because you're exactly right. I think we all know at the beginning of a road, whether it's shorter long, right? If I ask you, what grade did you get? That road is literally like two words long. I got, or three, maybe I got, I got to see. But if the question is, what do you feel like was the hardest and easiest part of that test? And what did you like about it? That road is like insanely long. That's 10,000 words long. And it's interesting. If you think about the question now we're really going off trails. You and I have to get our own podcast together because if you think about the question as the road and so much of what is your real goal? Is it extracting information or is a question just a way to get to know someone? Think about how well you can get to know someone on a longer, more me entering road. You can't get to know someone that well on a like where to do, where, you know, where were you born? Like unless it's a road to like, oh, what was that like? Tell me about what sticks out, but whatever it is, there's a lot of time to get to know someone when you're walking down certain roads versus others. I absolutely agree. I love that. Anything that you've noticed, parents think is good communication with kids that tends to backfire? I think oftentimes we feel like delivering knowledge to a kid is the thing that they're looking for. But actually what they need to do is they need to discover that knowledge on their own. And we can support them at that. Right? That's why I think asking kids questions. Even if you know the answer to the question, oh, you know, what do you think you could have done differently to do better on that test? I know what the answer is. You could have studied more, right? But we all know how powerful it is that oftentimes, and this isn't just kids, all of us, all of us, there's a difference between information and knowledge. And oftentimes the way that we turn information into knowledge is by cognating on it, is by chewing it up, is by changing it. And the more that we ask these questions that help kids take a piece of information and make it into a lesson, a piece of knowledge that they've learned, that's the thing that they're going to remember. I'm going to double down to this because I think a lot, and I think the whole good inside approach is about teaching kids how to think, not what to think. You short-change. It's a very short road what to think. You could study next time. But kids only learn from the literal experience in their body. So I'm just going to model something different around your example. And I think the word wonder puts us into this mindset. And I do think I don't talk enough about the wonder face you need. So I'm just going to model it here. I wonder what you could have done. And here's my wonder face. But I really mean it. I actually do this in my kids a lot. Like I'll say something. These are some of our best moments. Like, what did I say to them recently? Oh, what does it mean to be close as a family? Like, what do you think that means? And I kind of have this wondering face. And the reason that makes such a big difference in terms of how to think is now my kid has to search. They have to wonder. You don't learn by someone inserting knowledge into you, really. Not in a way that translates over the years or also we all would have been perfect teenagers. Let's be honest. Okay. You learn. I still remember how to do calculus. Exactly. Who remembers sign cosine? It means it means nothing to me. Right. So like in my body, I have to go through a searching. That is the kind of tunnel I need to go through. And so wondering. And I do think there's something because we can ask questions to a kids and they call our bullshit. We're like, I wonder what you could have done. My kids like, that is an accusation with a question mark. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. So I think this idea of really wondering and I do. Everyone's got to find their wonder face that feels authentic to them because it's a communication to your kid that actually there's permission to think and not have to come up with the right answer. That's exactly what I love it. I absolutely agree. And not only that, but you're showing them that you're interested in their answer. Right? Like, I wonder, I wonder if you like, wonder what you could have done differently. If it's a real question, you're putting them in a position of power. You're giving them agency to say, hey, dad, don't worry about it. Here's how I'm going to solve it for you next time, right? It feels wonderful. All right. My last question. You're going to zoom out. You think about your kids, I don't know, 10, 20, 40 years ago and someone goes, oh, what was your dad like? And they just have one sentence. I go, oh, my dad, he was, or he has had, how do you want them to finish that? Oh, that's such a good question. So my dad passed away in 2018. And I've actually been thinking about him lately, like how much I miss being able to call him and sort of like ask him, like, how should I handle this or that? And I think if somebody asked me that about my dad, I would say, like, he always thought I was the greatest. Then he supported me so much. And like, he made me feel so smart. And he made me feel so capable. And he made me feel so clever. That that's what I hope my kids say about me. And what's interesting about it is that's not me saying, oh, my dad was so smart. And my dad was so clever. And my dad was so, had so much agency, even though he did, right? He had all those attributes. But the thing that like, I remember if you were to ask me about him is how he made me feel. And I hope that someday my kids say, my dad made me feel like the most important person on earth who could do anything. And it's actually true. I mean, I think they can do anything. And hopefully, hopefully they know that. I mean, your dad sounds like, like, such a lighthouse in terms of how he directed light back in. That's so beautiful. And it was, I mean, he was a dad, right? Like, like, we started a company together. And it was, it was hard. And there was a, there was a lot of ups and downs. But, but throughout it all, I knew that he always, he wanted me to succeed. And he thought I could succeed. And that's the most valuable thing that you can give a kid. That is just so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for your work. Thank you for the power of habit for super communicators for all the other ways you show up and make science and change so shame free and so possible. You've impacted so many people, me included. And so I'm just so grateful for everything you put out to the world. Thank you for having me on. And thank you for making such a great show. I love listening to this show. And so it's such a pleasure to get a chance of time with you. More soon. There were so many takeaways from that episode, but I want to tell you the one thing that I'm playing over in my head over and over so much I wrote it down when Charles said it. He was talking about how hard it is for people to begin or stick with habits. And he said this, it's just that people don't understand how habits work. I can't even tell you what happened in my body when he said that. It was so relieving. I hope you heard it that way. Wait, if I'm stuck in any area of my life, the morning routine or habit I want. My kids having meltdowns and I don't understand them. My kids not sleeping at night. Me and my partner are arguing. I want to know if you can take this mindset around maybe there's just a dynamic here. That's keeping me stuck that I don't understand because then we can take the next step. Is there anyone I know who could help me understand this kind of like could anything help me unblock my confusion and get to clarity? I love how possible and hopeful and empowering that is. So that's what I'll be thinking about when I'm really stuck. Maybe it's not willpower. Maybe it's not that something's wrong with me or my kid. Maybe it's just as simple as there's something I don't understand. There's a lot of people in this world who could help me understand. I love that. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and the hand on your heart. Let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I can't wait to see you again soon.