Episode 531: Leslie John: Oversharing as a Competitive Advantage in Leadership and Negotiation

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Habits and Hustle. And we have a very special guest. Number one, she's Canadian. All that matters. All that matters. And she lived in Winnipeg for many years. But really, she's exceptionally impressive. Not only is she like a professional dancer, which of course is her background when she was younger. This woman is a professor at Harvard. She is, I guess, a behavioral scientist, and she is an expert in decision-making. And also, she has a new book out, and her new book is called The Underrated Power of Oversharing. Actually, Revealing is the title, and then The Underrated Power of Oversharing. So I guess we're going to talk all about the power of oversharing on this episode and everything in between. So thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me. This is exciting. First of all, I love anything when I see the word behavioral, behavioral psychologist, scientist. I'm like fascinated by how the human psyche works, the brain works. And given that your background is, I was saying before we started, you're a dancer plus the Harvard. I mean, your attention to detail and discipline must be off the charts. I drive myself crazy sometimes. well listen then i i i love it so i'm here for it so before we start we do this thing on here we uh we basically take a shot it's a mental performance shot right to keep you super kind of i guess very basically very focused and you don't need it though i would highly doubt someone with your background but let's do it anyway yeah i'm excited so we basically cheers yours actually has no caffeine mine has caffeine okay are you okay with caffeine um not right That's too late. Okay, good. Yeah, that's a good choice. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm going to have to only just take a little while I'm going to be up all night. Not like there's so much of it, but I'd better be careful. I literally had like four today. So I'm not going to have any more. It's good though, right? That's delicious. I know. Isn't it delicious? And it's all very good quality ingredients. It's like ashwagandha. And it's cooker-free. Yes, of course. That one, yes. It's great. It's like natural sweetness. What is it? It reminds me. You were complaining about your eyes. I'm like, what? I know. I'm literally blind, by the way, now. Literally. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's good. It's very good. One day, I can see. The next day, I'm blind. So, all right. Let's get into it because I have so many questions for you. And I want to start with the obvious, okay? So, I have to use my phone here. But the real – let's start at the beginning. Like, why is oversharing actually underrated? Ah, yes. And then we'll kind of go through – we'll go down the rabbit hole. Great, great, great. I love rabbit holes. So it's something that I think we feel, I mean, the word oversharing, it's a very loaded term. We feel a lot of shame about. Yeah. And we shouldn't because there's so much redemption in even our most outrageous, cringy blurts often. I know. Yes, so do I. And I think that once, like, we live in fear of TMI, right? Which sucks. Like we've all felt that like disclosure hangover of like, oh, my God, what did I do last night? But what we were they say last night. Exactly. Yes. But what we often don't appreciate is that there's so many wonderful benefits of being a little more open, like sharing your most embarrassing story, which I once did to some very senior people definitely had a disclosure hangover. But then those two people became some of my closest friends and strongest mentors. Like there's opening up gets us so much. It gets us better relationships, better well-being, even influence when you're thinking of leaders and persuasion. Well, let me start with saying this. Okay. So first of all, the TMI, I think because also we're living in a society and culture where social media is so prevalent and oversharing is just like at its all time high, right? What is the difference between, I guess, emotionally just like vomiting on somebody and just oversharing in a very positive way. Oh, I love that. What do you mean by oversharing in a positive way? Because I do, I think, and even after reading your book and my own personal experience and opinion, I think there is a real benefit to being vulnerable and being open because it makes people feel closer to you. It makes them feel like you're not hiding as much and all those things. But there is a very fine line between doing that And then I think giving people too much information where it becomes uncomfortable and awkward for the other people. And in your experience, when you became very close with your seniors, a lot of times it could be the opposite where people feel like actually they're kind of like they recoil because it's too much information. Yes, yes, totally. And I think, yeah, TMI is a thing. Yeah. I think we worry too much about it and not enough about TLI, too little information. but there's a lot of like rules or norms of disclosure. So this vomiting of emotions is too much too soon. It's, you know, it's like when you're forging a new friendship with someone and the person never asks you a question, they never pass the torch to you. And so the sequencing, especially in when we don't know someone well, in early relationships, it's really important that we reveal, but together, slowly, gradually deepening. If someone does it out of turn and vomits everything, then it's TMI and it's off-putting and it can signal a lot of things about the person that they might not be available, so to speak, to be a friend or a colleague or a partner. What are some parameters that people can learn and work through or strategies? Because if you're not self-aware enough to know where that boundary is, you can get yourself into trouble. Completely. So I loved the term you use, the like positive oversharing. And that is so something that I think we chronically undershare. And it's a very easy thing for people who are like, I don't know how to share more. What does this mean? I'm suspicious, which is fair. Praise. So think of all the positive thoughts you have. Like, look at this gorgeous window in the beautiful backyard and the lush foliage, right? Like you think of all these lovely thoughts during the day and we often keep them to ourselves. But what if if you if you if you are bonding with someone, you're starting to like them. If you just say, hey, I like you. I did that once when I was at dinner with close friends and then a couple of acquaintances. And the one woman I said to her, I'm like, yeah, I like you. And she was a little caught off guard because it's a little odd, but it's pretty safe. You know, praising someone is not vomiting all of your innermost thoughts and feelings. It's a positive thing. And so you will find, I mean, and I've been experimenting. This book is like an experiment in life where I've been trying new things. And one of the things I've been trying is like just saying the positive thing out loud, like someone I love their haircut walking down the street. I love your haircut. So that's different. So when I think of oversharing, right? And when I first saw the title of your book, I initially thought it was like oversharing private details about one's life. I never thought about being outwardly complimentary. Right, right. So before you came here, I was actually doing another podcast with someone else. And I was talking about the idea that when I naturally, I'm like that. I'm very blunt and I blur things out. But if I notice something positive about somebody, no matter what, I don't care if they're a guy, a girl, whatever, I will just tell them what it is. It could be like, I like your shoes. I like your haircut. you have a good laugh. I think that that disarms people. Completely. Yeah. And so like, and it's not being, it's being genuine. I'm not just, I'm not being, it's not contrived. That's core. Yeah. Right. That's core. It's very, it's not being contrived. Yeah. And that can connect people because like you're disarming someone and you're allowing them the ability to kind of then feel like, oh wow, like in their head, like, oh, they like me. I like, I can, I can be myself or it gives a positive feeling. Right. That's different than oversharing. Yeah. No, it totally. So when we think of oversharing, you're exactly hit the nail on the head. We think of, you know, sharing your deepest, darkest insecurities, vulnerabilities, feelings, fears, right, right. Yeah. Taboo things like all kinds of things. And so even then, when you think of oversharing in that classic form, I think we're too scared of it. Yeah. Because it can do so many things. And as I was, you know, you, you would ask me as we were, we were coming to the studio about like how I got here, this idea. And it actually, I, I did a 180 where the first part of my career I studied, I call myself a recovering privacy expert because what I studied was so narrow the way academics do. I can make fun of academics as one. And so I studied, like I saw all these, it was the early 2000s and you see people, you know, posting things on Facebook, which sounds so old to say now, but like, you know, Virgin Atlantic flight attendants venting about their company and then they get fired, like all of these, these classic stupid sharing. And, and I was, and so I had all the tinkering and was doing all these studies showing, oh, we share like when it's dangerous and at the wrong time and we're duped by companies and, and, and stop, stop, stop, stop doing that. But the, which wasn't wrong, but it wasn't right either because over the years I had this kind of growing disconnect that I couldn't suppress anymore. They came into consciousness, which was there was my professional life and then my personal life. I'm super blurtatious. I have spoiled three surprise parties. It's very hard. I think I have a really high quality of life and I'm very happy and I have close friends. There's just something more to this. There's something deeply right about what we're doing about sharing a lot. Now, it's not to say we should always tell everyone our deepest, deepest, darkest secrets. But then as I was thinking about this more, you know, you just kind of like become obsessed with the idea. And it made me realize how every day we have disclosure, we decide every day what to share, what not to share. And so often we decide, maybe not you, because you're wonderfully unusual, but to not say like someone asked how you are and you feel like shit, you don't say that. Right. Right. And so we never tell the honest truth. Yeah. And we shouldn't always tell the honest truth that that's problematic in the other way but there just is is so much so much hiding and and undersharing and what if we shared a bit more and then then I noticed you know some of how can you write a book about revealing without revealing yourself and so there were times in my life when I thought like I insulted in my Harvard interview I insulted and this was inadvertent not strategic at all but I get one of these flirtatious things and I insulted my interviewer. I basically called him fat. What did you say? So he was, oh, he was, he was trying to make me feel comfortable because I was super nervous. I walk into this, it's in a hotel suite, like it's very bizarre, but normal for academia. Or a Harvard interview? Yes. So it's not a big nerd jamboree. I know it's so weird and sketchy. Anyways, all of the universities interview in in hotel rooms um harvey weinstein i know this was like a long this was 2010 so i don't oh you know they might still do it though really they would interview in a in a hotel room so every university gets their little hotel room and they the candidates come in one by one and it's usually mostly men once i was in once i went to i won't say the name of the university but i go into the room it's a normal room two senior academics lounging on the beds with the shoes off like they were clothes really it was just so yeah and you were in for an interview that's so weird i know so so many things right that's so but the harvard one they had a suite so that was lovely it was like a little more professional it was less lounging on beds all men okay were they wearing clothing or like they were and they were all suited up okay um and it was and it was a lot of men it was like it was like overpower it was like nine men it was like there's a lot of men you know and and so I was I was nervous and I because one of my the mentors who I told a very embarrassing story to a long time ago and we became close he was there and I know he like used social capital so I felt like this was like I actually had a chance and so when I get nervous I get even more unfiltered it's terrible and I think everyone though maybe maybe I don't know my husband's the opposite I yeah but anyway, so I sit down and, and the, who became a beloved colleague, he's valiantly trying to make me feel more comfortable. So he looks at my resume and he's like, Oh, you're a ballet dancer. I used to be one too. And then I just, in that moment, I don't know why I decided to do this, like some primal weird, maybe I am a jerk down inside. I don't know. But I just went, I looked him up and down. I cocked my head and I said, clearly like the most sassy. And he's, he's kind of portly. So it was like, oh, and then like I faced her in bright red and I'm just like, oh my God, get me out of here. I just like poured gasoline on myself and lit it. I'm like, this is please, I want to leave. There was like awkward laughter. And then someone got me a drink. Unfortunately, it was non-alcoholic, but we got through it. But, and then they hired me and, you know, the colleague, and he became a super close, dear friend of mine. He just retired and he would love whenever there were new candidates he would all he would love telling the story he's like you know when she insulted me like that we thought she'll fit in she'll fit it fit right in here she's a jerk too like she can that's hilarious well that's also to your point when you're like you never really know how people are going to react to how you reveal what you reveal right and i guess to your like i guess you would think that that would have had like a a negative for sure response and he actually like like liked it yeah and thought it was funny yeah and it made you guys kind of bond I mean in the moment I think he was like a little bit jarred and maybe a little offended because that's a lot yeah but then it was like oh my god this was hilarious but also you did have social capital with the other guy I did I did so so that was that was a good extenuating circumstance too exactly but but yeah so episodes like that like I was reflecting a lot and I'm, and I thought, and that's part of it too, that like, if you never experiment, the answer isn't like say jerky things to people, but if you don't experiment saying the thing, then, then you can't kind of falsify the overblown fears you have of TMI. But I think that maybe it's not really oversharing though. It's more about being open and receptive to like a back and forth, to being like having an earnest way of like communicating. Right. And being like open, open-minded. I think it's about open or being vulnerable, you know, not to overuse that word. I know that word's been very overplayed, vulnerability, but at the same time, it is about that because I think, again, it's about when you let your guard down, you're allowing other people to let their guard down. But I still push back on the fact that that's not so much, like when, literally when I think of oversharing, it's like saying, it's not even saying that comment that you said to the professor. It's more about like saying like something like kind of like really, like just has zero to do with what the circumstances is and like talking about something and you're like you know like oh yeah when that guy dumped me because after we had sex and this is whatever it was you know what i mean that's not good sharing yeah that's like there's that's definitely tmi is alive and well exactly yeah yeah yeah but there is and and you talk about this you talk about revealers and concealers yeah and i would imagine people who are revealers are people who people gravitate to versus concealing. Because again, when you feel like people are like hiding something or they're not forthright, it doesn't bring you close to them. Yes, yes. But at the same time, to your point, you also avoid the person who like trauma dumps. Like it just is like all about me all the time. Right. And so I think the most healthy way to be and the most desirable in terms of people wanting to be friends with you and most fulfilling is are the people that have a lot of disclosure flexibility, which is to say people that modulate between the extremes, they go super, super deep with their partners. They tell their partners all their fears, their thoughts and feelings. And then they're very reserved in context, like super competitive professional context when it behooves you to be really reserved. So it's about kind of, it's not like one size fits all. We should be revealers all the time or concealers. It's So most of us would benefit from opening up a little bit more, but we need to practice revealing and not revealing in lots of contexts so that we can kind of get a better feel for what's the right amount in which situation. That's why it's not so simple, right? Okay, so give us some examples of when to be a revealer and when to be a concealer. Yeah. So as I was writing the book, I it's interesting because your your point about like, what is oversharing? And I have always thought of myself as an overshare. And then as I was writing the book, I thought, oh, you know, I love sharing. It's fun. I don't know. Maybe this is my messed up psychology, but it's fun sharing self-deprecating jokes about myself and like funny stories. I enjoy that. And I thought of myself as an overshare because of that. But then as I got really into it, I thought, wow, I'm actually not sharing the really important stuff. And so I think when I say like the underrated power of oversharing, that's what I mean. I mean, most of us stand to really open ourselves up, be vulnerable in the right time with the right person. There's been some one really sad, but it's changed. writing this, I know it's cheesy to say it has changed my life. It has improved my marriage. It was great to begin with. But it's one of the things I learned as I was writing the book is that lots of long-term relationships, marriages, most of the time they don't break down because of some dramatic affair or which is horrible. A lot of the time what happens is that people grow further apart. And then I'm rabbit hole, rabbit hole. Why? Why? Well, they stop sharing. Why do they stop sharing. It's the easiest person to share with. It's your spouse, super safe person. And I realize what happens is when you, it's a cognitive bias. When you are with someone for a long time, you know them really well. And the longer you're with them, the more you know them. But the problem is that your confidence that you know them outsizes your actual knowledge. So the longer you're with someone, you think you know them better than you do. And that's where the problem begins, right? Because then you're like, I don't need to ask questions. I don't need to learn. I can read their mind. They can read my mind. Like saying it out loud is ridiculous. Like, no, people can't read my mind, but it's this implicit belief. And then you stop sharing. And then, and as soon as I, there's even a scale, right? I went lots of rabbit holes. There's a scale, you know, psychologists have a scale for everything that measures how strong of a mind reader, how much you believe in mind reading. So the belief that kind of this overly romanticized belief that your partner should just know what you want all the time. Right. And then I took that myself and I'm super high in it. And as soon as I learned that about myself, I'm like, oh, wow, I am not telling Colin that I feel anxious about something. He can't read my mind. It's not that he's a jerk. He just doesn't know what I'm feeling. And so I realized all these things where I thought he was being insensitive and like empathic failures was just because he can't read my mind. And we're not different than studies. They've had studies of couples who have loved each other for like 12 years, longer than either of my marriages. and and even couples who've loved each other for at least 12 years when they do exercises where they try to like intuit what their partner is thinking and feeling they get it wrong 80 of the time and so like yes and so it's like that like completely was a paradigm shift for me it was like what feels like over communicating is just communicating that is that is really incredible i didn't realize i know that number is so high and it's so true it's like you become you not like necessarily taking them for granted, but you're so accustomed and used to them being around that you feel like you know every step of what they're going to do, how they're going to do it. And you actually don't. Yeah. Especially their feelings. The feelings, yes. You know their values, you know their personality traits, the things that are pretty... Or their daily habits. Yeah, the stable things about the person. But when you think of the day in the life of my feelings, like, well, they don't go up and down that much, but there's a lot of variation, right? Yeah, absolutely. And they're so internal and private so then okay so this is still interesting because you're saying like you started off as being like an expert in decision making yeah and privacy yeah and like decision making mistakes and how we suck yeah no it's like so negative all these things are but have nothing really to do with oversharing i still uh-huh yeah yeah where is the bridge it's interesting that's so fascinating so i think of privacy as like what i had done for the first was like look at these people online oversharing they're saying things they shouldn't be saying they're making mistakes they're sharing into that get into like like how does that even become like a an area an area i know like you like where did you go to school in canada and then but where in canada university Waterloo Right And that where I learned like I just gravitated towards psychology It amazing how like some professors they just I don even know if it the topic I wonder if it's the quality of the instructor, right? That they're just so passionate about it. So I got really into it. And then I went to grad school. And where'd you go to grad school? Carnegie Mellon. And I remember, I remember, so it was like, I want to say it was like 2006. and I remember sitting in the lab doing my like statistical analyses and my friend beside me, she's like, look, this is Facebook. And I'm like, what? I just, it was like this totally strange alien thing. I'm like, I don't understand this. What's a wall? Why are you doing that? Like, I just, I did not get it. And so I'm like, this doesn't come. So then I was like, I need to understand this. And because I was like, because I was so unfamiliar, like the frame is a negative different. And isn't it amazing how the frame that you approach something with has such a profound effect on how you interpret it? It's all about framing and reframing. Framing is so powerful. But that's why they say like in order, like how you behave is all about the frame or how you've got to reframe negativity. It's so powerful. Right. It's true. It's all about reframing. Yeah. Okay. So you see this crazy Facebook. What is this whole thing? People are like posting their like children and all their private things on this crazy wall for the world to see, this is weird. I'm going to go into being a privacy expert. Exactly. And then there were people, scholars there, who studied it from a purely economics lens. And I was the kind of weird psychology person. And so we kind of fused our minds together and started doing all kinds of experiments. But then how did you end up at Harvard, besides this guy that was a social lubricant for you? Yeah, no, I mean, and we did research together. And so I was kind of a known entity. I started doing research with them early on. But then, yeah, so I mean, I feel like I worked very hard. I also got lucky. You know, there's so many qualified people for these jobs. But what were you teaching? What was your class? Oh, yeah. So I actually taught marketing. I know. I'm like, you're never going to be able to compute my strength. It's like a completely jagged. It's a very jagged, jagged path. Okay, marketing. But I think in hindsight, it may seem less jagged to me at least because this fundamental thing about making yourself known, knowing others is so core to so many things in life. It's core to marketing. Like knowing your customers is like really core. How do you know them? How do you communicate with them? What do you tell them that you know about them? And so we did all kinds of studies on that too. And when companies reveal, when companies overshare by, we did these big experiments with banks where they were selling their credit cards on, they had credit card web pages. And they, in one study, we said, what if you actually made the downsides really salient? Like normally credit card website, when you're buying a credit card, it's like, oh, this is an amazing low rate or great points. But what if, and the fine print is, but what if you were more transparent? What if you made it super salient that, hey, the fees suck? And so we convinced this, my colleague Ryan Buell and I convinced this company, a large Australian company, to do an experiment. And it turned out when they were forthcoming, when they overshared, that would be, I would think that would be like a company oversharing. That's like information on like, you're basically saying like, don't buy this. Yeah, exactly. And when they did that, the customers trust them more. And then they actually are more likely to stay on. It's a really powerful customer retention tool. So this is all to say that I know it's a very jagged path, but there is this thread of like, you know, and then you like I teach negotiation and what's negotiation? The people that are the best negotiators are the people that can understand what they value and what their counterparts value. And that requires strategic sharing, managing what to share, what not to share. And teaching that or I've been teaching that for like 10 years now. the single most common mistake in negotiation is that people don't share enough because they're scared of it because they're like, I think this person's going to rip me off. And that's true sometimes, but so often it's not true. And it's, if you start by being concealy, very technical term, very concealment gets, but gets concealment. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you start by saying, look, this is what I want in this deal. And these are my values. These are the things I care about. These are the things I care about less. Now you're off to the races because then they can say, oh, you don't care about that. I care a lot and I care less about the thing you want. We can trade, right? So you're saying be straightforward in a negotiation and not be concealy, as you put it, is actually more beneficial to the deal. Nine times out of 10, yes. For sure, I'm not saying we should reveal everything in a negotiation, far from it. But the defaults we have of like, well, that's what I see again. Like holding your cards close to the vest. Right, executives, like they're top of their game. And they come to the first session and they're like guns a-blazing and they're like, okay, it's a competition. And like guard up. And then I tell them, well, what if you ask and answer questions? And then we put the – because I like data and numbers. We put the results on the board. The people that are more forthcoming, they don't get ripped off. They actually get better deals because they figure out what each other wants. And then they realize they can both have what they want in many cases. Not all cases for sure. not all cases but well it was interesting also what i what i noticed also besides the negotiation is like i was going to say this earlier about and i don't know why this came up when i when i was researching you but like how companies who market though to only women uh-huh actually repel women oh yeah well right and that's so that's a paper we did it's called um well i i don't know if they the publisher let us use the name we wanted to use. It was like beer for chicks or something. And this idea of like, there was a pen, Pilot had a purple pen, like especially for women's hands or something. And people rejected it, right? So it was like two, it's because it took this idea of like knowing your customers, knowing what they care about, and it massively oversimplified it. And it made people feel like they were reduced to a single category of membership, right? And like so many research ideas, this came from my childhood where I had an axe to grind. Research is therapy for me. It's for everybody. If you can't do, you teach. Yeah, yeah. No, I know. It's so true. Well, I had a babysitter when I was like, I don't know, seven or something. And she would always say, your favorite color is pink. You're a girl. Your favorite color is pink. And I, no, it's not pink. And I actually really like pink. But I've so stubbornly hated that, that I was blue is my favorite color. Right. And so this like idea, this reactance of like when you feel reduced to a single category of membership, it's very off putting. And again, it speaks to this point about like how being known for who you really are is so calming and so trust building and so bonding. And in couples, you see this as well, where there have been studies of people who, so there's one scenario where suppose I have low self-esteem and my spouse, he says, oh, you're a goddess. You never have low self-esteem. Like you're super confident all the time. So that's like an idealized version of me. So that's one version. Or in the other version, he says, oh, Les, I know you have low self-esteem. And it turns out that it's the people who feel like their partners know them, warts and all. I would rather my partner know my sucky qualities and admit to them than some fantasy. Like it's being known for who you are that really, really is such a powerful basis for relationships and trust and influence and all good things. I think, well, I think that's 100% true. Like, you know, when you say to someone like, oh, I'm like really down or I'm like, I'm super, I'm down or I'm like not feeling great. And they're like, what do you mean? You're such a superstar. You can handle anything. It's like, I hate that. I hate that too. it's like it's such a like it's like you feel so i hate this word unseen and like you don't know brush off like you don't know me you don't know me at all like what do you mean what do you like you're so tough you're so strong like yeah you can get through anything right it's such like it's just like such a i don't know what you call it it just brushes over everything dismissal and a denial yeah god forbid you have real emotions or feelings right right right i so i know what you're saying like I thought it's the worst it's the worst I'd rather the person say yeah I know that you struggle with this right okay but you're gonna get through it yeah yeah you are kind of a hot mess but that's okay I love you still yeah or whatever it is so much more meaningful when someone loves you then right well yeah because you feel like like you said like you feel like someone actually like like it's getting under the hood and understands and knows you yeah yeah right like up. 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And as a mom and a business owner and a podcaster, that convenience means I stay consistent and strength training, especially for women, is so key for my hormone balance, longevity, and of course, confidence. So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp.com slash Jen to learn more. That's joinamp.com slash Jen, because strength should fit your life. We talked a little bit about obviously why oversharing can be powerful and like where the the lines are, I still really, we actually haven't really kind of dealt as deep as I'd like into this where the lines crossed. We know that when you compliment people in a genuine way, it's very, very, it brings people, it's disarming. It brings people into like a nicer space and all the other things. What about lead? What about leaders? Ah, good. I'm glad you went there. Yes. So that is a area where this may, this may qualify this way. But we'll see. So when leaders are vulnerable, I also don't like the word vulnerable because I'm like, what does that mean? My skin's vulnerable. When they share a work related weakness that they are working on or a difficult feeling related to work. So something that is, has, it's vulnerable in the sense that it has risk to it, sharing your feelings, sharing your weaknesses. We have found in study after study that when leaders, high status people share some of their weaknesses. So for example, if they said to a group of new recruits, gave their introduction, and they also added in their self-description, you know, I'll admit that sometimes I get nervous public speaking. And so that's something that you would not expect a leader to share. And what we find is when leaders do this, it makes their employees trust them. It makes their employees more motivated to work for them relative to when they don't. It's more of a facade. Like a leader then is not relatable and you can't trust someone who is never vulnerable or never has no flaws, no apparent flaws. Right. And then we did more studies where we're like, well, how far, what, how much vulnerability, right? Like what's the tipping point because surely, you know, if you say something extremely vulnerable, that can't be good. And so what we did, I love my job, is we had employees watch different versions of a leader introducing himself. And we did it with a woman leader too. And we just varied how deep the disclosure was. So we would start with like, sometimes I get nervous public speaking. And then another would be, sometimes I get nervous public speaking so much so that my mouth gets dry sometimes. There's the Canadian accent, mouth. And then another one, all of that, I get nervous public speaking so much so that my mouth gets dry. And sometimes I have full blown panic attacks. And so we wondered, like, at what point? And we asked people, we asked leaders, we're like, is any, are any of these safe? Or are they all undermining? And they're like, oh, my God, those are all undermining. I would never do that. Like, no, sharing that you're nervous public speaking, it erodes. Your company won't have faith in you. They'll think you're incompetent, Right. And so then we actually got employees to tell us what they thought. And it actually the first one, they enhanced trust and it did not make you think the leader is incompetent. The second level, same thing. The one. So I'm nervous, public speaking, and sometimes my mouth gets dry. That was like not that was not a career limiting disclosure. In fact, it built trust. The third one was like, OK, now now this person is like, I don't know if they can do their job. And so that's the pattern we see again and again is that the line is often a little bit further than you think it is. Right. I believe that. The line's further than you think. But again, I'm always going to go back to. There's still a line. There's still a line. 100%. And so if we're not in like some kind of like Petri dish where you're doing an experiment. Right. What are we supposed to do? Because I think that there's also a piece of this where there are different degrees of people's self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Yes. You know, some people can kind of like feel innately like, OK, there's a line here. I know exactly how to push it, how to come back at it. Right. There are other people have zero social skills. Right. And they'll have no idea. And it will be TMI. Yes. So, again, where is the middle ground between TLI, too little information, and TMI? That is the fundamental question. And I can't say it's here because it's always shifting. But what I can say is, one, knowing where the line is is a skill. It's a learnable skill. So people with self-awareness, that gives you a huge advantage. And in fact, getting this right enhances your self-awareness, too. So one of the best ways to learn the skill is to practice by being. So we have this general finding of like it's often a little further than you think. OK, well, you can implement that in real life. Go a little bit further than you think. Observe what happens. See what happens. Experiment. Test. Learn. It's not something if you never try it, you will never know. You'll never learn. The other thing is there's also some pretty tried and true like cues that you can use or like rules of thumb. And one of those rules of thumb is reciprocity. So if you are in, I don't know, we could talk about it in dating. We could talk about it in friendship. So suppose you're you're looking for a new friend and you're in a social situation with new potential friends. Reciprocity is really your number one tool here. And what that means is that you want to share something. So the goal is find a point of commonality that you can both relate to because friendship is made on mutuality and finding things in common and liking. Well, how do you do that? You need to reveal and find these things. So start with something casual, not a big reveal, a question even, and then they'll share something. And then the key thing is when you respond, you want to meet them and maybe raise them a bit. So you want to share something that's just as vulnerable or not vulnerable as them and go a little bit further. And then what they'll do is that it's such a natural instinct to reciprocate. They'll do the same thing and then you're off to the races. So the sequencing really matters. So the way you can implement it, if you're saying like, I'm an alien from outer space, how do I do this? Is you look, are they reciprocating? Or am I talking the whole time? Am I not letting them reciprocate? Maybe I should ask them a question to get them, right? To get that back and forth. So is authenticity a good thing or a bad thing? Oh, that's a good question. I bet you have a view. I would love your view, but do you want me to go first? Sure, you go first and then I'll tell you my view. The question is, is authenticity ever a bad thing? No, is authenticity a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? I think it is generally a good thing. I think that to me, one of the core things is not to be pedantic, but how you define authenticity. So to me, authenticity does not mean saying everything that is on my mind at all times. That is not authenticity. To me, authenticity means being genuine, saying the sincere things that I mean that are appropriate for the context at hand. And there, I mean, what's not to like about that? I think that's, that's amazing. It's hard to do. Yeah. I would say, in my opinion, what I think, I think authenticity is good 80% of the time. Because the other times, I think when you're speaking to someone and you're telling the truth, that can be sometimes not so great. If you feel like being authentic, like I don't feel like getting out of bed today. So I'm not going to do these things that I have to do. But I'm being authentic. Oh, that's not good. Yeah. Or like, no. You can't just not be a grown-up. You can't be a grown-up. But there's all this chitter-chatter about being authentic and authenticity. And I'm one of those people who really believe in being authentic and genuine and real. Genuine and real. Genuine and real, which sometimes gets very crowded with the word authenticity. Because if authenticity is you just being an asshole, then maybe being authentic isn't so great. Completely. Completely. So I think, again, I think everything comes down to emotional intelligence and having the self-awareness or the self-intelligence and social intelligence. And situational awareness, completely. And situational awareness. But with why I say this is what I've learned is common sense isn't so common. I know. Right? Most people don't have it. It sucks. Right? And I sit here. Use your noodle, people. Use your noodle. But you know what? I sit here all day with some of the most smartest. I know. We academics are the worst for common sense, aren't we? We get it all contorted. Unbelievable. I've had these conversations and they're like, use your noodle. Or just not picking up on basics. Yeah, completely. Right? Where these people, like I said, who are the smartest, most successful. And I'm like, you are a moron. Are you not picking up on the social situation, the circumstance? You can be very, very smart in one area. IQ. Or in one area of your life. Yeah. Yeah. But be a complete moron in everything else. Completely. I agree. And I believe like, you know what, in my opinion, I think it's actually better to be smart in like, be street smart than being school smart. I totally agree. And I did not always think that. So well, you're an academic. I know. It's like blasphemous for me to say that. But, um, you know, I, yeah, IQ is great and all, but I just, I take what you're calling realness, street smarts. I think of it as EQ, Ritlar, you know, like being able to read the worm, self-awareness, emotional intelligence, all of those things I think are way more important than IQ, way more important, way more important for achievement in life. We often think it's IQ, but I don't think so. It's these things are way more important for achievement, but also like for well-being and relationships and joy, you know. You said it there, joy. I think that's one thing like, yeah, well, if you're trying to be a professor or a surgeon, yeah, you need to have really great grades. I mean, you know, have them off the charts, right? But like, how about for like being happy in life and being successful personally or having like deep relationships or all these other things? Exactly. Super important to be more emotionally aware and emotionally intelligent. It's interesting how times have changed because I'm thinking to my parents and they both, especially my mom, like super smart woman, skipped two or three grades. And nowadays, so we have a five-year-old and we just held him back, which to my mom, if you're listening, my mother's chagrin, she's like, what? Not so subtle, subtle. He's so smart. He's so smart. I'm like, I know he's smart, but EQ, like his ability to deal with difficult emotions, understand himself, like that's so much more important. And the data show unequivocally, boys are much less good at that. Why? Because of the way we socialize them and all these things. And so like, I like he, I want him to. And so now we do the opposite. Right. And I think about my mom and how, you know, she in some ways she really struggled in school, not academically, like grades, but like, I think this old school way of like, people would skip grades all the time. And now we do the opposite. I think it makes so much more sense that like, I'm all on board for if anything, I'm like overcorrecting. You're overcorrecting. I'm like, how do you feel? Really? Let's talk about that feeling, you know, and they're just like, I just want to play them off. Sorry. Right. And there's too much of that, I think, too. But you said something earlier that I thought was really interesting because you a Harvard professor And when I was asking you about like how you you know your evolution of how you got here you kind of took it to the wrong direction that I was thinking Yeah, yeah. But when you said that, you revealed something that I was super interested in. And that is, you said that it was like this and luck. So you mentioned that luck was a part of it. Yeah. And I want to talk about that because someone who has the pedigree, I guess, that you have. Yeah. And here we are talking about street smarts versus academic and emotional intelligence versus IQ. Here you are, like people listening, if they want to get into Harvard or teach at Harvard, you said it was luck. So what played on your team besides you? Because you also said you had social equity over there too. Yes, yes. I mean, it's a combination of things, right? Like I do think for sure luck. Like there are so many people that could be in my job that there is a certain point where like, and I see it now being on this side of it where we interview people and, you know, someone's having a one really influential prof is having a really grouchy day and is like asking grouchy questions that are making the person stumble. And then all the junior people, nobody wants to hire them because of this, right? Because someone had a bad day, like, right? So fluky things like that. So that's a real thing. But now, now that I'm a senior person, I'm like, how do I assert myself and stop that from happening? Right. But that's a whole other topic. But I think, so that's what I mean. There is a certain element of luck. But I also think, when I think more deeply about what you're pointing out, I think that you can create your own luck, too. And I've been lucky, like the gene luck, right? Like, I'm lucky. My parents are healthy. My parents, right? That's lucky. I don't know. I couldn't control my genes. So that's luck, for sure. I don't take for granted. But then there's also reading the room, the street smarts of how you how you get people to do things, how you get people to help. That sounds Machiavellian. I don't mean it that way. But like, no, but it's actually. But how do you be honest? How do you the truth? How do you how do you. Yeah. How do you get people to do stuff? So how did you do it? So I want to be honest. Right. So there's lots of share. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here we are. I'm asking you to overshare. For sure. So I my if we go to back to grad school, my Ph.D. advisor was like just a fat. He's a lifestyle was like he's in the past. He's fat. No, no, he was as if he's dead. He's not dead. Hi, George. But he he is a brilliant and super creative person. He is extreme. I would say this to his face. He's extremely difficult to work with. Like so many students have that are epically genius, like way higher IQ than me have failed with him. And so I knew this. And I what I did like small things can make a big difference. For example, I suck my neck out or insisted or assertively asked to have the office that was right beside his office. Like there was two possible offices I could have been in. And so when I needed to take on him, I'm not going to like email him. I go into a hey, George, I have a question for you. Like quick question. Right. And so you kind of learn how this person works and it's reading the room. It's like, OK, he doesn't like being interrupted at this time, but this time is a great time. Like he hated being interrupted if he was walking on the way to something. But like if he was settling in the morning after he biked it, like now I just sound creepy that I know all this about him. But no, but you're like learning. Yeah, learning, being observant and and helping people to help you in a way at the right times and understanding that you're not you're not there. like he has a family he's got much more important research you know and it's not about you but if you want something to happen you kind of have to make it happen i love that yeah so then what happened so then you got to know george because you were at your desk beside you right right got to know him yeah and you kind of learned his quirks and personality right right love it right then right and then i mean i worked super hard i worked my hiney off right that's i'm taking that like that's obvious right right that that kind of goes that's a given but what are the like what is the like the the cheat sheet the cole's notes yeah like what makes you who works super hard different than the other person yeah super hard yeah right savviness i think is really you know and i never thought of myself as savvy but some of my i have these very dear girlfriends pittsburgh sisters grad school friends we live all over the place now and um they said last year you're the savvy one you're the strict and i'm like i'm not strict strategic so negative and schemey and i'm like no you're not schemey you're just like you have street smarts i don't know where i got it from. But now I'm trying to now like digest some like other other other ways of, you know, like another one would be, which is not a comfortable, it's not comfortable at all. You have to do really uncomfortable things and force yourself to do them. So one of the things was when I was practicing basically my pitch on the job market, my pitch of what my research is about, I went to the meanest, grumpiest, most skeptical faculty members that I was most intimidated by and I was like please grill me on this and and I probably even cried during a couple of them but it was like that's what you need you need like someone to like you you need the inter you need the practice to be harder than the performance right and you also trained yourself for this with ballet right that's why I find it very interesting like I believe that how you do one thing is how you do everything 100% and you are ready you are primed in a different way yeah to do this so like yeah you know i did this i did this uh talk that it's not out yet yeah maybe by the time this podcast is out it will be out and it was about like how when you have some type of physical activity that you take seriously fitness of some form as for it like propels you in success in every other way of your life because it teaches you interesting these fundamental life skills yeah you can't get anywhere else yeah and so it teaches you this like enormous amount of confidence yeah discipline self-efficacy self-efficacy is like in the top two completely right yeah yeah the yeah that to kind of like i can do hard things and i'm going to work my i'm going to work my ass off and i don't care about like i i know i can do it right like the belief in yourself yeah and so right away when i saw your bio i knew when i saw like train ballet you know ballerina i'm like okay no wonder she's going to be a Harvard professor. Was it because of your, not because like of your, of your pedigree in school? I didn't even know where you went to school, but I knew right off the bat that that would, what you learned in that foundation was going to be propelling you and everything else. And like you said, it, like you were, you knew that you had it, like you were going to like figure it out and like make it happen for yourself by doing whatever needed to be done. Yeah. That's interesting. And I guess now reflecting on it, like failure wasn't an option. Like I It wasn't like some people drop out. Like it wasn't on top of my mind. I'm like, I'm going to do it. It's going to happen. And also, if you failed, you had enough self-efficacy and confidence that you would pick yourself up again. Yeah, I mean, there was a million failures along the way. Like failure fest, for sure. Failure fest. But where else did you apply besides Harvard? Oh, yeah. So I applied super broadly. I applied to 80 schools. And you got it. But why? I know. Randomness. Like it's, um, the academia is so weird on how people make decisions, but it's like the wizard of Oz though. Right. No, it's like nobody sees the wisdom. No, because nobody, people think, Oh, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world to do. And probably whatever happened in your path. Yeah. You're probably like, actually like this Joe Blow or like the guy who made the decision wasn't that, you know what I mean? Wasn't what people expect. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I just find this very interesting because you're also a Canadian girl, went to Waterloo. So like it's very, there's a lot of like things that you're saying that I, I can like resonate with. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. For sure. Do you find, so for you, what's it like, I mean, Canadian girl in LA and because you are super nice, agreeable, like full fledged Canadian. Do you find it makes you vulnerable to being like taken advantage of? Yeah. I'm hardly agreeable though. But you're not agreeable. Well, I mean, I would say you're, you're comfortable with being contrarian, which is great. I'm comfortable about being contrarian, but it's because I have a lot. I've, I, it's a self-efficacy and I, I have a lot of confidence in like who I am and what I'm saying because of experience, not because I'm being pompous or arrogant in any way, but it's like experience and like, like repetition has given me the confidence. You also have a way of saying straight shooting. It's, it's actually, you respect, you, you show that you respect the person by straight shooting, right? Because you're like, I know you can take it that I don't buy this or whatever, right? I also think like kind of with your oversharing message, you know, I think it's really important if you really want to like connect with somebody again to like, that's where I think authenticity is really important. When you're having a conversation and you're trying to connect to somebody in a real way, you got to be honest with like, yeah, like where you stand and you can do it in a kind or a more polite way. You don't have to be an asshole about doing it. I have such a zero tolerance for jerks. Yeah. Zero tolerance. Like if I was being an asshole, maybe you would tell me I was. But I don't think just because I disagree with somebody that that makes me a bad person or rude. No. I think it's rude if I just sit here and nod, yes, yes, yes. And then this whole experience would be fake and phony. Right. Totally. I don't want that. Nobody wants that. But there are people who do want it. Right. and they're not because it's hard but then you know what then they're not my people and i'm okay with that yeah yeah yeah so i'm sure i think the thing is i've i'm okay with not being liked by everybody that is like i think a key life hack is be once you're comfortable that realizing i mean i only realized that probably like three years ago that like not everyone's gonna like me and i don't care and that's fine and that's fine it's a problem if everyone likes me i think exactly i gonna say if everyone likes me i'm doing something wrong yeah it's just like in a negotiation where if you always get what you want then you're not asking for enough you gotta you gotta fail sometimes it's like if you're doing push-ups and you never fail like you're not gonna get stronger well right you always do the same 20 push-ups day in day out yeah guess what happens you're not getting any stronger you're not really like changing it you're not growing you're just doing the same thing because it's what you're comfortable doing but there are a lot of people who like are really afraid of conflict and um but yeah that's not being like that's not even conflict it's just like having a it's being a grown-up it's being a grown-up but i feel like we're in this in a place in society where any type of like dynamic where there's disagreement it ends up being extremely polarizing and i then automatically i hate you personalized personalized like why just because I disagree with you. I know it's, it's so, it's so, so many things, maddening, saddening, first excruciating, frustrating. Like it's, it impedes growth. It's, and it makes life uninteresting. It does. Like why? I totally agree. But being Canadian, like you were asking me, am I going to be taking advantage of? How do you, ask you for a friend. I think that over my, I think that, yeah, to be honest with you, I think that I lead with how I can like help someone and give, and I give a lot of things, like I give a lot of things for free or I give people this, or I give them contacts or I give them help. And is it, it's probably not reciprocate. Like I would say it gets reciprocated maybe 10% of the time, but like, I'm not going to change my core value system and who I am because of other people. You're not doing it to reciprocate. I'm not even doing, I'm just doing because that's who I am. Yeah. But what if, so how do you then manage, I don't love the word boundary, but like, how do you manage, like, you know, you have to, you also have to protect your nest and your family and your life and you're like, you can't just give everything. A hundred percent. But I am, I have problems with boundaries in the sense that if I like you, I'll like, and like, I, I do take people too often. I'm, I guess I could be slightly naive at the beginning if I like somebody and then be disappointed. Right. Right. But I've learned that this to be like kind of like the price of admission yeah yeah yeah because that way i i still am open to when i meet someone who's extraordinary and like i have a great relationship with them like i've met some extraordinary people i've had extraordinary opportunities because i didn't change the core essence of who i am completely by leading with how i'm playing even though i got and i do get disappointed very very often yeah i also try to keep things in perspective like i I don't really care. As long as my kids are healthy. I know. They are. This is not so grounding. Right. Like, as long as they're fine. Like, an idiot who's like dissing me or talks shit about me or like doesn't help me or doesn't respond back to like whatever it is or someone makes me an empty promise. Yeah. All right. Like, I'm kind of used to that. Yeah. I also live in L.A. Yeah. And I'm playing in a world that's a lot of bullshit and nonsense and pop and circumstance. So I'm used to a lot of this nonsense. I've been doing it for so long in different iterations. Now it's a podcast. Before it was, you know, a lot of different things. And like, it still is an entrepreneurship. I work a lot with like founders and I work a lot with brands and I work a lot with like entertainment things and books. Very cool. But like at the same time, it's like people are people and you're going to like find all sorts LA or this at this level, you're going to find all sorts. But I will say this. I think that water does find its level and you do eventually gravitate to people that you're similar to. Yeah, I'm with you. And so I do have with amongst all that stuff, I have, like I said, I have a lot of great people around me who are really good in quality. And I tend to forget about all the shitty people I've met along the way, right? Because it just like doesn't matter at the end of the day. Yeah, totally. You're asking because for a friend, of course, is your friend having a problem with like navigating a lot of this? So she is, yeah, like I think it's it's hard because the boundary of like wanting to give now just sounds like an extended humble brain, which is not my intention, but like, no, no, I understand. But you know, and like the, when I connect with someone, I'm like, yay, like it just feels so good. And you just like, you want to be besties and, um, and so, but I love, I have learned though to, this is going to sound weird, but like massively lower my expectations. I think the key to happiness is just having extremely low expectations. And then you're all, I know it sounds like defeatist, but it's like, it's so helpful because it's like, and, and doing things also not to please people. Cause if you're doing something to please someone, then you're so vulnerable. Cause then if the person like doesn't react, then you're, you're, you're crushed. But like, no, I'm, I'm helping you write this article. I'm mentoring you doctoral student, like my version of how I help because because I like you and I want to nurture you and I enjoy this. Right. And so I, and I do agree with you that the nice ease find the nice ease in the end. Yeah, you do. Like I finally, I have, I think there's a couple of things that you said that are really interesting. The first thing is the nice ease find the nice ease. That's a nice way of putting it. But I, I also think the low expectation is a massive one. A hundred percent. Because I think that's where we get ourselves into trouble. When we expect others to be like you, like right to act like how I was right there's been a lot of scenarios one very recent one that's like gutterly killed me because I expected someone to act in the same way I would have acted yeah and they didn't yeah yeah rushed me yes and because I was not expecting yeah I hate that behavior it's so upsetting it's really yeah it like hit me in my gut were they close to you very yeah and that was a surprise to me. And so, you know, I think that having unrealistic expectations, not knowing someone as someone as well as you think you know them or being like, you got to keep your eyes open and never, never just expect people to do what you would do because that's when you become so disappointed. Right. Right. And that's where like revealing, asking questions, learning about others. It's really made me appreciate that more that like we walk around the world thinking implicitly that everybody is like us. And then when you ask people and learn more, you're like, oh, no, they're not. And that's okay. They have a different set of goals and motives. And it's interesting. I had two salient experiences have come to mind of what you were saying, where one of them is this idea of how, this is a motto, my family motto, it's nice to be nice. My husband makes fun of me for because he's nice, but he's got an edge to him. And so I'm often having to it's nice to be nice like yeah except the uber driver yeah but what does he do your husband he's a consultant okay for like mckinsey pwc but okay close enough but he was that was a professional athlete which soccer player which is like so that we're like very like simpatico but he i don't know but i also he's like super reserved and the thing like after he read this i was so nervous for him to read the book because you know there's stuff about us and he's like when we're at dinner, we'll be talking about something banal. And he's like in hushed voices, like he's like super. And he said, I love this book so much. Don't change anything about it. I need to open up more. And he's been like experimenting more. But yeah, so he's, and also being a little warmer. I know now that I've hated him as a total jerk, but he's not, he's amazing. I do sometimes I wonder if he, I know this is, I have asked him if he's a spy. because and he did not he dodged it he's so observant he's he always knows where everyone is where everyone like he's like super city it's like hyper vigilance but anyways wow that's a weird tangent but um the thing i was gonna um and now now that i said it he's i've never get home sorry colleague um but i yeah yeah so this idea about like it's nice to be nice and like you do nice things because you genuinely want to. And so I think something that really gets in the way that people think is competing, like achievement and being nice, like the idea of like, I think people walk around implicitly often thinking like it's a zero sum world and like my achievement is at your expense, especially like at Harvard when I was starting and teaching is really grueling teaching there. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I did not reveal that to my students. and we'd have these meetings, these teaching group meetings. We were all teaching more or less the same thing to different students. And there was another professor there who, and the idea behind these meetings is to share ideas on how to do this because we all can get high teaching evaluations, right? Like if I get a high one, it doesn't mean you get a low one. It's not zero sum. But yet there was this one colleague who more frequently than chance, he'd be like he would be tight lipped during these meetings. And then the beginning of the next meeting, when we'd review last week, he'd be like, oh, my God, I came up with this amazing framework of how to make sense of this and how to teach this thing. But I literally came up with it on the way to class. So like, that's why I didn't share it. And it's just like and I think that's that is actually that is even if he was purely interested in his own payout, which some people are, I think it's still misguided because when you share your ideas with five other smart people, you get even better, right? And you've had a rep of explaining it, which makes you a better teacher. And so it was like the completely wrong mental model of like, I need to hoard my ideas. It's a zero-sum world. You know, I don't know for sure, but it was like very suspicious, right? And so it's like the wrong mental model. So for sure, we get burned sometimes, for sure. Right. So like this whole I love that the cost of entry though like it's worth it it is a cost of entry but I was gonna say competition is a whole other thing right yeah because people I'm super competitive so I'm super competitive too but or and as he's like to say god yes and yes and I'm not competitive with women because they're women I'm competitive against myself I don't yeah like I don't right oh for sure oh my gosh that put a light on like when I'm at the gym I'm like I'm doing burpees is like not because I want to do more than you because I want to get the effort burpees I don't care what you're doing yeah how successful you are how much of a failure you are doesn't doesn't like doesn't change my life whatsoever yeah I've always felt that way so like if I'm with like what you know like if I'm sitting with the most the most beautiful girl in the world I'm not like oh my god I'm so this and I feel this way like I don't I'm like great I'm like I'm like wow look how beautiful you are look how great you like your body's amazing like yeah it's more of a I think it's much more of an it's like it's like aspiring or inspiring or I don't care look how smart you're like I I'm not that way yeah why I'm bringing this up yeah yeah and the competitive yeah state is unfortunately a lot of women are very competitive with other women with women and I think there's this whole this whole lie about like women empowerment like women helping women and all these things. Yeah. Women help women when they are basically not as great as them or not as smart as them or not as successful as them, not as threatening to them. So that's my theory on this is under fundamental insecurity of like, if you are not fully comfortable in your shoes, in your skin, then you will be threatened by someone. There's always someone who is more beautiful, more smart, more, because there's always more successful. Right. There enough to go I think the mentality is like you know there enough success or there enough whatever to go around For everyone You don have to hoard it by just thinking that That to me is a very, very myopic, terrible way to lose. Actually, you lose that way. I agree. I agree. But you can't change human nature. Right. So I was curious as you were talking how, because I think a lot of people are not like that. Your idea of like, it's competitive about yourself and not again, like, and you've always been that. I'm curious how you developed in that way or if you have a theory on that. It's interesting. Whose podcast is this? I think that I never really thought of myself as anything more than average. And so everything that I've achieved or God or became is because I feel like I worked really hard at it. Right. Like I didn't think of myself as being especially, you know, exceptionally smart, exceptionally beautiful or whatever, whatever it is. So like what I did was I took what I had and optimized it the best I knew how by working really freaking hard and executing and learning all these different strategies and habits and routines and whatever it is just to kind of enhance whatever I have. And so it's, it came from the same thing I said earlier, which was self-efficacy, like seeing myself transform myself, not because, you know, someone else did it for me. It's because I did it for myself and I didn't do any crazy thing. It wasn't like I went and got plastic surgery. It wasn't like, so anything I have is because I, it's like hard work, you know, like I'm fit because I actually work out like a fiend, right? Not because I'm taking something and I'm doing this or I'm doing that. Right. Like whatever my face is, it's, it's going to be what my face is. I'm not getting any crazy surgeries because I don't like, like I've learned to like really love who I am and be happy with what it is, whatever good and bad. And all I I've kind of made a decision much very early on that, like, I'm going to do the best I can with what I have, but I'm not going to like, I'm not going to force or fake or be something that I'm not. Yeah. And so when you have a really strong sense of self, yes, everything else coming into your life, like I'm, I'm okay with it. Right. And I want everyone else to be the best version of themselves without feeling that they have to like alter something. Exactly. Like, so I, I'm a big champion for guys and or girls, whoever I think like are good humans, you know, but a lot of women just don't think that way. Right. And they see everybody as like a threat or a competition or, and so like, I've, and I've seen it all the time. Like women always, like I said, say, Oh, I want women champion and then like, yeah, they're not helping. They help you until you, until you kind of surpass them. Right. Until you become more successful or more fit or more this or more that. I see this daily, young people and old people. People are people. It doesn't change. Like you think because you mature, you change and people change. They don't change. In fact, actually it gets worse. They just maybe hide it a little bit better. Right. You got to work with what you have for sure. That's what I, that's just the way it is. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. No, it totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. I am one of my best friends is, um, an identical twin and she, she's a colleague at Harvard. And so like, we have all the ingredients of rivalry. Like we're a similar age. We are both competitive. We're both like have these, this amazing job, like all these things. And, and she said to me once, and then we had this, um, professor who was talking about rivalry, giving a talk. And we were just like making eyes the whole time. We're like, is this us? Is this us? Are we rival? Are we rivals? And then we talked about it afterwards. And she said, so good. She studies conversation. She said, why aren't we rivals? Isn't that such a great way in, right? It's like presuming the good thing, right? And then we started talking about it um and because we have all the elements of it and i said to her i think you led this because you you have this experience of she it's so interesting talking about the experience of being an identical twin she's like i am a communal like i was born as a communal person caring about this other human and so she just doesn't see things like she views giving as like it's core to wanting to help. And she's also extremely confident, extremely self-assured, right? Her mother is amazing. Her mother was a school, like a guidance counselor back in the day. Back in the day, you know, women, they didn't get amazing. So she had the like most EQ thing. And you talk to her mom. She's amazing. So she had like, she had a great upbringing and stuff. And she's super, super confident. She's so confident in her skin. And she's, she's happy. she realizes that often success begets success. Like helping someone feels good. Now I just sound cheesy, but it's true. Like, and you got to live it. No, no, no. Success begets success. I totally understand what you're saying. And I agree with everything about that stuff. And like, I think that being, I think wanting other people to win helps you win. Yeah. I really do believe that. I believe it too. Because I, I, I just don't like, even if it doesn't happen, like I think that like life is long. It may not happen just right off the bat with that one person. Yeah. But like everything's a ripple, it's a, it's a long game and there's a ripple effect, right? So maybe not, not, it won't happen with this one, but like, you know, I know you don't really probably know me very well, but I did a whole thing. I did my first TED talk. I've done three, but my first one was on being bold and asking for what you want. I've watched that. Oh, you have? Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. And this, well, this whole thing is like this whole, like make 10 attempts at whatever you want most in life. And the thing is what it teaches you is not just to, you know, to get comfortable with failing, but you making those attempts, either you're going to get that thing you want or another opportunity will present itself. Yes. Yes. So stuff leads to stuff. Stuff leads to stuff. Right. But you just like kind of like kind of doing it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Kind of like throwing a lot of shit at the wall. Eventually something is going to completely. And there's nothing wrong with thinking that way. Right. Like, yeah, no opportunity is going to happen with you sitting on your couch watching Netflix. Right. Do it. It's like making a shot, making a shot, making a shot. Completely do it. And I get so the Harvard version of this is as I get students who come in, you know, needing to do research, wanting to do research. That's like how we succeed. And they're just perseverating. They're like, I don't know what what like I'll start saying crazy ideas. Why don't you study this, this to try to get them to be comfortable brainstorming? And they're like, but that's not in my wheelhouse. That's not like my core. And I'm like, who cares? What? Well, like, yeah, who cares? Like, you don't even have it. Like, I don't even have a core. Like, what are you interested in? Just do it. Let's get some data. Let's get the survey up right now. Let's do it. Not perfect progress. Right. Don't progress. Stop perseverating and do something. See, but that's where people, so this is what my whole talk is about, is the fact that we are our own worst enemies and overthinking is analysis paralysis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I use you. Welcome to academia. Well, I use you in my whole talk because I say the people who are the smartest. Yeah. Right? Exactly. Are not the ones who win. the people who win are the boldest because they they can't they're like but this is every outcome nothing go wrong the negativity what happens at this well that it's paralyzing it's paralyzed yeah but if you're just bold yeah which is what my whole thing is yeah is that like you're just gonna do it and if you fail all right if it doesn't work okay yeah like that's what i was saying earlier like me being average growing up worked to my advantage because the more average i was the more like if i failed no one cared yeah you're not threatening i can keep on trying and As I kept on trying, I was sharpening my tools, and I was getting better and faster and stronger and smarter than all these people who were, at the time, so much more smarter, prettier, faster, whatever it was. So that's my point. It's like you can't count yourself out without even making the attempts. Have you heard that thing, like it's the C students or the A plus students working for the C students? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes that because they don't have the grit, the like they have to like learn the resourcefulness and the grit to get through. The wily resourcefulness. Yeah, totally. Another thing came to mind as it came to mind now and earlier about like being average and and thinking when you're like, what is it? How did you get to where you are? I, on the first day of grad school, we did this exercise and my naivete, too, of like, we're all going to be friends and happy as a cohort. Let's cuddle. And so the professor, we are this cohort of like six new students and small, and he slaps a $20 bill in front of each of us. And he has us all do, puts us in a prisoner's dilemma, which essentially, basically, you're with someone else. I'm paired up with this person. We've just started. We've just met each other. And there's $20 in between us. And we each have to make a decision, split or steal. If we both say, and it's simultaneous reveal, it's one, two, three. What are you going to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. And so if we both play split, then we split it down, even Steven, $10 each. Okay? So we both cooperate. But the problem is there's a temptation to be selfish and defect. where by that I mean, if you play steel and the other person, you somehow managed to convince them to play split. So if I play steel and you play split, you're generous, trusting, and I'm not, I play steel, I get all 20 bucks. And then if both of us play steel, none of us get anything. Okay. So the thing that's tricky is you want to each get $10. That's like a really nice outcome, but you've always got that. If I know that you're going to play split, then I'll be tempted to be like backstab and play steel so that I can get more money. Right. And so this is like a very it's been studied ad nauseum in economics and beyond. There's like a correct answer to this. The correct rational and rational and quotes. Yeah. The correct answer is to in this situation to play steel, which nobody gets anything. That's like the correct answer. And I knew that I did know this coming in like that. That is the correct answer. But in my mind, I'm like, but this is a bonding exercise. So what do I play? I play split. I cooperate. Everyone else plays split. I look like play steel. I play like look like such a loser. My classmate and was the only one to walk away with money because everyone else plays played steel and I played split. And I looked like the fool. Like I look like a complete idiot on the first day of grad school. But and I felt I was ruminating afterwards, even though in the time I'm like, we're doing this right, guys. But like my naivete burned me. But then I was like, but did it burn me? Because, you know, when we were doing, we, I didn't get through grad school without help. Right. And, and, and like, I'm disarmed. I was disarming. Nobody was threatened by the dumb girl. Exactly. So that's a hundred percent true. So it's like, they, they helped me. Yeah. I helped them too. I think I taught them psychology. Right. And also though they weren't threatened by you. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there can be like, not to be like hyper strategic about it, but just like reflecting back. I think there is something to that. I think there's a lot to that. Yeah. So I was going to include when you were asking me earlier, I was super disarming, right? Yes. Because I wasn't a threat. Yes. And that worked to my advantage. Yes. Right. Yes. And I think that like I'm a big believer in making using every tool you have in your toolbox to kind of go after what you want. Yeah. I just do. And I don't think that's taking away from someone else's toolbox. Right. Right. Right. And so if you if you can be if you're disarming somebody and you're not threatening, God bless you. Right. I also don't think it's a bad thing to be an opportunist. No, not at all. As long as you're like sincere and not like. But what's wrong with it? Why can't you seek and why can't you? Yeah. Why? Right. Why can't you take advantage? Right. of an opportunity and seize the day or seize the opportunity. You'd be a fool not to. Right. If it's like, oh, you're such an opportunist. Okay, you should be too. I think because sometimes when one says that, people hear like at someone else's expense. That's not what you're saying at all. Exactly. And that's exactly, I had this whole back and forth with this person I had like a falling out with, right? Because, not because of this, but one of the things that was, what we're talking about is like, I believe that people should take advantage of every opportunity that comes their way. And they took it like, well, at whose expense? Yeah. No expense. Right. You're the one who's adding on to that sentence. Right. You know, at someone else's expense. Yeah. Which makes me think that's your personality. Yeah. Yeah. Me, I'm just saying life is like, it's like, it's basically a zero zero game. Yeah. Right. Not like a zero sum game. Right. I'm not competing against you and vice versa. I don't really care. but whatever opportunity is coming my way i'm going to try to see seize it yeah and you should too and that's what my point was earlier like you've got to be resourceful you've got to be ready you've got to make everything work for your advantage right not at the expense of anybody else and and a core of that is like understanding you and like what your secret capabilities are like what unlocking your potential and trying by doing things you learn like oh i'm really really savvy and really good at this and i'm and i'm not so great at right so do more of the good thing and mitigate the bad thing. Maybe not do so much of that thing. I mean, I don't even know what we're talking about. We're so off. How long has this been? 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Have we talked about that? Let's talk about confidence flexors. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I, I really liked the shark tank example because I watched shark. I love shark tank. I love it too. I love Mr. Wonderful. Mr. Wonderful. They're all great. I love, I know they all have their unique and they work so well together. I love them. They work really great together. Are they actually, is that there? I feel like it's so authentic. Maybe an exaggerated version, but it feels... They feel authentic. They do. By the way, the ones I've had on, I think they're great. I love... Rob's Canadian. Yes, yes. He's not... No, he's from somewhere else. Where is he from? Not Ukraine. No, no. Oh, my gosh. Croatia? No, no, no, no. That sounds closer. No. Bosnia? No, Bosnia. Not this. Not this. Not Bosnia. Where is he from? Tip of my tongue. Croatia, it says. You nailed it. I don't think that's right. Is it? Okay, maybe it is. But then he immigrated to Canada, so I feel he's one of us. Yeah, and he has the Canadian you can hear the about. My point is I really liked and I liked the example that you used. Whenever I watch the show, I notice that the ones who are overly confident on the show, they are like these superstar experts. But in general, I feel like they don't like the people who are overly confident. For sure. They want the people who are more like, like kind of like have that like feeling of they admit when they're wrong. What would you call that? Yeah. Real humility. Humility. Humility is the word. And that takes confidence. That's like you have to be actually be confident to admit that you don't know. 100% like that I think overly confident is really unattractive. Yeah I agree completely completely and yet it is amazing in the classroom when people use maybe not for I don't know for judging character but what I see maybe I don't know why maybe they're younger MBA students but people confuse confidence with competence and knowledge. Yeah there's lots of studies right like Like, so it's in the classroom all the time. There will be someone who says like something like word salad, but eloquent and super confident, but like zero substance. And people are like enthralled. And then someone who's less, much less confident and puts up their hand and not in a loud voice. And they're like crazy smart. And I'm like, yes. So then I'm trying to, I try to, in less overt ways, because if you're overt about it, then it's not good. But I try to echo the person who like repeats. So what Suzanne is saying is it sounds like, right, and kind of ignore that. But it's frustrating to me that people confuse the two so much. Well, confidence and confidence are the people who are confident, I feel, are usually confident. They usually go together. They're usually the most confident. They often go together. But a lot of times, the most confident, a lot of I've seen in my own history, that you could be a really good orator and fake confidence. Completely. And be a complete ninny in real life. Yes, 100%. And I think that that happens a lot also. Yeah. And so I think this goes under this whole umbrella of like likability, right? Yeah, yeah. I think that the people who are the most likable may not necessarily be the most competent. Yes. But they have these other qualities that draw you in. Right. Right. And I was going to say, there's a whole study that's on how VCs give money to the most likable, not necessarily the best business plan. And that's not wrong, right? Well, it's not. But listen, if I'm giving someone $20 million, I would like them to be competent. They need to be competent. Yeah. I mean, surely it's wrong sometimes. But I would say you would probably agree it's also wrong. like likability does matter. And when in terms of the person's ability to lead, being likable does matter. It matters more than anything else. It's the most underrated superpower I think that there is. Preach girl. I do believe that to be true. We're like aggressively Canadian, right? Yeah, exactly. We're super, super Canadian. But the confidence flexing, sorry, I went on a tangent there. So the confidence flexing, it's like our instinct is often to to project confidence when we are not actually when we when we feel really weak and it doesn't it doesn't really work a funny example of it um the thing is it's sneaky because it kind of creeps up on us right when i was i'm not a good driver don't ever get in a car with me when i was go back to taking my yeah i know i know well my husband almost always right i know he's like oh the the patriarchy but definitely he's he's a good spy driver but yeah so um when i was taking my driver's test this is so absurd but it illustrates the point i took a left-hand turn and i neglected to look for a pedestrian and i and and and the adjudicator said who had the right of way there and i knew that the the the passenger pedestrian did, but I just confidently was like, I did like as if that erases everything. Right. It's like as if you, and, and so that's an absurd example, but it, it, it shows how like wrong this is, but how we often default to it. Right. I think it's out of defensiveness. Yeah. Defensive. It's totally, it's totally brought them on by defensiveness. Yep. And so what is your point though? Was there a point? Oh, I was just explaining what a compliment. Okay. I'm like, Is there another point? It's not effective. Coffee selects no good. It's not effective. Not effective. Not a good plug. I don't know. It's late in the day. I know. I didn't have caffeine in mine. I know. Well, no, exactly. I have way too much caffeine. Okay, Leslie, we've got to wrap this. So where do people find you? Oh, they can find me online. My website is drlesleyjohn.com or on Instagram or LinkedIn, proflesleyjohn.com. Okay. Prof Leslie John. Okay. Yeah. The book is called Revealing, and it is about the underrated power of oversharing. Yes. You're like, or is it the overrated power of oversharing? Is it actually overrated? Exactly. I read it and find out. Thank you for being on the show. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so wonderful. So fun. Yay. Bye, guys. Bye. Thank you.