Flourishing in an Unraveling World: A Conversation with Tara Brach and Richard Davidson

Welcome friends to the Tara Brock podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Each week I share teachings and guided meditations to help us awaken our hearts and bring healing to our world. You can learn more or support this offering by visiting TaraBrock.com where you can also join our email list. Now let's explore together the many ways we can live from the love and presence that's our deepest essence. Namaste. Namaste. Greetings friends. Thank you for being here. During our time today you're going to be listening to a conversation I had with Richard Davidson about his new book, Born to Flourish. It was co-authored with Cortlandahl. So Richie is a pioneering neuroscientist and he's also the founder of the Center for Healthy Minds at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. And his research explores the neural basis of well-being, of resilience, of compassion. And he shows how these qualities can be cultivated through training. He's also been meditating daily for most of his adult life. So I found my time with Richie really fascinating. We explored what it means to flourish and how in small daily ways, often easier than we can imagine, we can directly nurture qualities of heart and mind that we most of us really long for. Qualities of presence, a felt sense of connection, insight, wisdom, we can cultivate those as well as a deeper sense of purpose. So I hope you find this conversation interesting and really supportive, meaningful for your own path. Thank you. So welcome my friend. It's good to have you with me. Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so Richie, I'm going to start in with the most obvious question because we're going to be talking about your new book, which I have here, and just to show folks, it's Born to Flourish. So what is flourishing? And as you tell us, I'd love for you to include the masters of flourishing that taught you a lot about flourishing. Yeah, so thank you for asking that. And the way we think about flourishing is using the framework that we present in the book. Someone who is flourishing is fully present, is connected to the place and the people and beings with whom they're interacting, is approaching it with curiosity and insight around what they're bringing to the situation. And with a strong sense of purpose. Those include all the pillars of flourishing that we'll, I'm sure, talk about in a little while. Another way to think about flourishing is a person who's flourishing is has a sense of being fundamentally okay that anything can come down the pike, and it's going to be okay. And yeah, and you asked about the people who have taught me about this. Teachers like the Dalai Lama and Mingyur Rinpoche, and many others who through their lives, through their demeanor, through their interactions really embody these qualities and are living exemplars of what the kind of further reaches of human possibility might be. And these are offered up as inspiring examples in the book. So those basic qualities that you named, you describe them as innate and they need to be developed. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, it's a great question. So we liken it as scientists to language. We're all born with a capacity for language. It's part of the human repertoire, but we also know for that capacity to be expressed, it needs to be nurtured. We know from case studies of children raised in the wild, feral children, they don't develop normal language. And so kindness, awareness, all of these qualities of flourishing are all qualities that are present from the start, but they need to be nurtured in order for them to be fully expressed. So on the one hand, they're innate, they're present from the beginning as capacities. On the other hand, they are also best regarded as skills that can be nurtured and that need to be nurtured in order for us to fully flourish. I would imagine as I listen to you that the other side of it is that there are conditions in our society that really suppress them. And so I'm kind of curious because you wrote this book, and I'll say you in Cortlandahl because you did it with co-author, in times that are, most people would say would be very difficult to flourish in. And so can you just speak to a bit to how come in these times it's particularly important to cultivate these qualities? Yeah, I mean, we're living in really challenging times and the magnitude of the poly crisis, I think, is beyond what most of us really were able to imagine even a few years ago. And so it's really, I think, especially important now that these skills are nurtured because if there is any hope for societal change, for system change, we need to have the resilience and the vitality that will enable us to be the agents of this change. And the only way we're going to do that is if we cultivate these skills in ourselves. So I think it's really especially important today. And I should also say that we're all part of a grand experiment for which none of us have provided our informed consent. We are being barraged on a daily basis by information that we have not given our permission to impinge upon us. And one of the things I often say is that neuroplasticity happens wittingly or unwittingly. And most of the time neuroplasticity is happening unwittingly. Most of the time our minds and our brains are being shaped by forces around us over which we have no control or very little control, and of which we're only dimly aware if we're aware at all. And so we're operating at a huge disadvantage, if you will. And it underscores the critical need for these skills, particularly at this point in time, so that we can actually have choices and we can intentionally deploy our awareness in directions of the future. And so we're not going to have choices that may be beneficial and nurturing, rather than be subject to these forces that are activating fear and other qualities which really erode our capacity to flourish. So I'm agreeing with you, 10,000%. And just to ground it a little, can you just name one of the forces, one of the forces in society right now that we might not be conscious of a lot of the time, that really is molding our brain in a way that's not healthy? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, to paraphrase the bumper sticker, stuff happens. And we really can't buffer ourselves from the media. And we're exposed to media every day that I think has been very carefully honed to activate fear. And we know, I mean, there's a huge literature in neuroscience that shows that fear contracts awareness, literally contracts awareness. And qualities like love can expand awareness. And so we really, I think, are operating in very unusual times. And it demands, I think, a response to counteract these forces and cultivate the qualities in our mind, which may help us to be immune or less susceptible, should we say, to these forces. Yeah, yeah. So the news and all social media has the same algorithm to activate that kind of fear response in a way. And I'm just curious, I hadn't wasn't going to ask you this, but your news diet and how you how you protect your mind, because it really is being in front of screens has such an impact. So how do you work with it? Yeah, I mean, the way I work with it myself is, I mean, well, there was a study done not too long ago that that showed that the average American opens her or his phone 152 times a day. I think most of us would agree that we don't need to do that. That that number is really quite absurd. And yet that is what it is. And so I, you know, there are many times during the day, particularly during interstitial moments, you may be waiting at the airport, and the disposition that kind of knee jerk reactions to take out your phone. And you can be aware of that, that urge, it's like an addiction. It is an addiction. And we know that it operates through the same biology as drug addiction. You can simply be aware of it. And, and when you're aware of it, awareness is really an important leverage point. It's, it introduces some opportunity to actually choose. It is a vehicle for for freedom really, as opposed to the knee jerk reaction that we're so conditioned to adopt. And so, you know, with respect to my own news consumption, I do look at the news every day, but I also have really imposed boundaries. So it's not endless. You know, and I tend to read, you know, I actually get the physical New York Times every day. So it's not delivered to me by an algorithm. You know, the I mean, you read a paper, like a literally a paper that you do every day. I love it. I love it. And that's helpful. Yeah, it's really helpful. It enters the brain in a different way. Yeah. I'm with you. So this is really helpful because I'm hearing you on two levels and one is to contain because we need to I mean, I take off one day a week totally and I have really strict guidelines for myself as to when I take in news. And so on. And the other is your awareness to that flinch that that reflex that is an addiction. It's very if we don't do it in the moments of not doing it, you can feel the pole. And if you observe that, then you're not so identified and caught in it. So, so that's really helpful. Now, I want to go to some basics that you bring in that I feel like are really important. You talk about the need for training and that it can be. It doesn't have to be like huge amounts of time. And yesterday, you probably are aware of this, but in yesterday's post, there was a whole article just on this that only a few minutes actually change the brain. They have EEG is watching people and it, you know, more relaxed alert states. So, and actually, Cortland was quoted in it. And so my question for you is, what makes small practices impactful because we used to think that we had to sit for longer and practice for longer. So I think it'll be really encouraging for people to hear from you on this. Yeah. So there's it's a really important question and, you know, full disclosure, my own meditation practice still, you know, I sit for, I'm probably an average of around 45 minutes every day. So I believe that there is value in in practice and I, you know, go on retreats with longer periods. But the evidence shows that particularly when we're beginning that short amounts of practice, particularly if it's done consistently every day can really make a difference. And our data shows that five minutes a day if you do it for a month is really sufficient to produce robust changes in a variety of outcomes, including biological outcomes. And so the, you know, I think some people have a stereotype of meditation where they have to sit for a certain amount of time, they need to sit in a special way in a special place. That's just not true. You can meditate anywhere, anytime. And in fact, being your impregnate has this whole new program called anywhere anytime meditation, which I often call everywhere all the time meditation. Yeah. And there's really no reason why you can't do that. It's totally possible. And so, you know, one of the there are sort of three really important simple takeaways from our book. One is that is that flourishing is innate that we're all born with the capacity to flourish. The second is that it's easier than you think. And the third is that flourishing is contagious. And that really frames a lot of what is absolutely central, the central messages that we're trying to convey. And so what we found is that five minutes a day is really enough to get these circuits in the mind and the brain going. And in part, we think it's enough because of our innate predisposition to flourish. You know, people, I mean, there's there's a lot of robust evidence for this starting in infancy where infants have been and we review this evidence in the book where infants who are at six months of age, strongly prefer interactions that are warm hearted and cooperative, for example, compared to those that are selfish and aggressive. And it's not like 55% of infants prefer that 100% of infants prefer that. And, you know, people sign up for courses to learn how to flourish they don't sign up for courses to learn how to become more angry or more fearful. And it's obvious that we are wired to flourish. If we just really open our eyes to it, it really requires a little bit of a mindset shift. But once we come to that, connecting with simple practices to nurture these qualities, really can be quite easy and it could be done, not even as formal meditation, but as we're engaged in other activities of daily living. So one of the things that our research shows is that you don't need to engage in these practices as formal meditation and when you do them, for example, as you're commuting, or as you are doing your laundry, or engaged in other activities of daily living, the benefits are comparable. And that's what the data show. So that's good news for people who, you know, who say they can't meditate, we say, fine, you don't have to meditate. Well, and it enlarges it because we have this false understanding of this idea that meditating is sitting in a certain way when it's any time we're paying attention on purpose. And what I love about what you're doing is it makes it a whole life experience and easier than we think because we can actually target in an intentional way. And one of the, from a past book, I really was very inspired by your work on shifting states into traits. And I think you build on that here in just a little bit different language. But let's say for someone who wants to be more generous or have more gratitude, what would be a natural way, what would be a kind of practice during the day that doesn't take much time, but would turn that state. into a trait, make it more part of their ongoing experience. Yeah. Great question. So one way to do that is with appreciation. Or with, you know, the related characteristics that you mentioned of gratitude. Before a meeting, before meeting with a person, you can simply bring them into your mind and into your heart and appreciate something positive about them. And it's amazing how simple a practice like that is. It's really, I think, revealing how it can color the tenor of a meeting and really shape its quality and also how accessible it is. And so it really does not take much to do that. The key challenge is remembering to do that. And, you know, in the Buddhist framework, we have the view meditation and application. Those are three parts of the path that we often talk about. And the view is really in part about this quality of innate goodness that every human being has the seeds of of Buddhahood, if you will, of, or we can say, flourishing within them. And being able to look at another person and recognize that is really part of the view. And it's said that we meditate in order to remember to bring the view into every nook and cranny of our everyday lives. And then applying it is is really another key part of of the path. And so for a person who doesn't meditate or who meditates very little, and, you know, I think if we're honest with ourselves, which I think we really need to be in this, particularly in this poly crisis that we're living in, the majority of the world's population, at least in the foreseeable future, is not going to meditate. And so what can we do to be helpful to those people who are not going to meditate? And that's the vast majority of the population. And I think what we can do is to help remind them of the view and a quality like qualities like gratitude and appreciation are really part of that. And so if we can figure out ways of simple reminders to help them nurture these qualities many times, short times, many times throughout a day, that will really be very beneficial. And that's what our research really is showing that doing that in that way can lead to systematic changes when it's done in in a way that is consistent. So, you know, I often use the analogy of brushing our teeth. When humans first evolved on this planet, none of us were brushing our teeth. And I'm sure every viewer of this podcast brushes their teeth for a few minutes a day, and stop to think about that. You know, when humans first evolved, none of us were brushing our teeth. This is something that we've learned to do. It's not part of our genome. And we've learned to do it because it's important for our personal physical hygiene. And what we're talking about is something important for our personal mental hygiene. And I think most viewers, perhaps with the exception of dentists or dental hygienists, would think that their minds are more important than their teeth. And yet we don't spend, most people don't spend the same amount of time each day nourishing their mind and their heart as they do their teeth. And it's crazy. And it's so accessible. We floss to avoid truth decay. Yes. One of the ones. But I'm right there with you that it doesn't take much and yet it deeply changes our whole sense of who we are, really. And I know for myself, I took on, oh, some years ago, I just wanted to have gratitude as more a part of my being. And I intentionally elicited gratitude as you're describing, feeling appreciation, looking for the goodness in others, probably the most powerful. But also when it came up spontaneously, when I felt a sense of appreciation, for either one, I would pause. And this is how I felt like what really worked was, and it might have taken 20 or 25 seconds, I don't know. But I would actually feel it in my body, I had to make it somatic. So I'd feel that kind of fullness and warmth and tenderness. And for maybe 20 seconds, I'd breathe and just invite myself to experience, oh, this is what gratitude feels like. And then I read a couple of years ago that there's actually an explanation scientifically that you know, and I won't have the words, where it goes from one level of your memory to the implicit memory, is that what it is? But it stays longer in that we have a kind of velcro for painful events and Teflon for really beautiful events, and that we need to intentionally sustain our attention when it's a beautiful emotion in order to have it become more of a trait. So I just wonder if you can round that out for me. Yeah, those are really insightful reflections and really important. You know, the brain is very much a contrast detector. It notices things that are surprising and unusual. And negative stuff for most people is much more rare than positive stuff. And so we tend to notice the negative things. They are more salient to us because they're much less common. And yet if we really reflect on the kind of granular details of our everyday life, there's so much more positive than there is negative. I mean, you know, just if we're driving in a place where there are a lot of traffic, the choreograph of driving and the fact that drivers, you know, for the most part, don't get into accidents and are respectful of where others are going to the large extent that they are. That is a thing that reflects human cooperation. These are things we just take for granted. But we notice, you know, if there's an accident there, that really will pull our attention and lead to rubber-necking and all of that. And so we do need to make a conscious choice to become aware of the positive. And this is something that really can be tremendously beneficial. I do a practice pretty much every workday, where after I meditate in the morning, I actually take out my calendar and just look to see who I'm going to be meeting with. And just do a little appreciation practice for each of the people. I did that for you this morning. And, you know, I do the whole thing in maybe 60 seconds. I mean, it's really just a few seconds for each person, but it's a way for me to start the day. And even if it's a day that is intensely busy with back-to-back meetings, I can go through a 10-hour day like that and come out on the other side, really nourished and refreshed. And so it's, you know, it's really could be an elixir for our soul. I'm right there. And thank you. Thank you for sharing that and for including me. And I don't know if you'll be surprised to know that I actually did the same. Oh, sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd read about your compassion calendar. I have a little bit of a different version of it, which is kind of book-ending my day. So part of my morning meditation includes the aspiration for warm feeling, tender feeling, caring connection, and to just be loving, being in a loving space. And then, and I'll think through my day what's going to happen and just imagine in each of those spaces being as open-hearted as possible. And at the end of the day, I kind of bookend it and I review not with judgment, just kind of curiosity. Because when I notice where I went into a trance, you know, where I was kind of not there, it's good information for what's up and coming. And so I read, so like you, I review who I'm going to be with. And I also kind of go through my immediate circles of people and just feel a kind of meta loving kindness, mutual connection with them. And it just inclines me towards more care. So I love that we're both doing that. And so I have a question that's kind of, we've been looking at how to cultivate, you know, these really, wholesome states right now as we just know this, it's just such a spiking fear in the atmosphere. Many, many people are feeling fear and overwhelm. And so it's a little bit of a bypass to too quickly or too regularly try to go to something else. So I'm wondering if you can give an example of how you take the four skills that this whole flourishing is organized around. And how do you how would you guide someone who's really stuck in a lot of anxiety right now to use these skills of flourishing. Yeah. So, all four skills are relevant to that to anxiety. And so to just step through each pillar and how it might be used to help with reducing anxiety, beginning with awareness. It's often helpful to simply tune into our bodies and notice what's going on. And even though our bodies may be contributing in some way or may be reflecting our anxiety to actually become aware of it, rather than to push it away, or to avoid it is actually paradoxically beneficial. And so by simply being aware of our bodies being aware of our breathing and using our bodies to support our awareness can be calming and can really help to restore some balance. Beginning with starting to take a few deep breaths can also be really helpful in just adjusting the autonomic nervous system. Connection is so vital for many aspects of our well being. And one of the key sources of anxiety is a lack of social connection and loneliness. And being able to talk with a friend, for example, to share is really something that can be enormously helpful in addressing our anxiety. And so this is another strategy with insight. Insight is really about a curiosity driven exploration of the narrative that we all have about ourselves. And so a person who says to her or himself, I'm anxious, we can begin by asking who, well, there are a few ways to do this. One is, who is this I that is anxious? Is it really all of me that is anxious? Is there any part of me that is not anxious and beginning to investigate this? And also, what are you anxious about? Is there some situation that is occurring that is the source of your anxiety? How might someone with a different perspective approach that situation? Is there someone you admire that is inspiring to you? How would they approach this situation perhaps differently than you would approach it from their perspective? And being able to appreciate that there are these different perspectives is really so incredibly helpful in this situation. And finally, leaning into our core values is really important. And when we talk about purpose as the fourth pillar, we're not talking about changing your life and deciding to do something grand and more purposeful. But how can you find meaning and purpose in even the most pedestrian activities of daily living? Can taking out the garbage be connected to your sense of purpose? And of course it could be. It just requires a little bit of reframing. And so you can begin to ask yourself, you know, what are the things that I'm doing and how might those things contribute to well being beyond myself, but to the welfare of others. And being able to do things and connect them to the welfare of others, we call that a self-transcendent purpose, a purpose that goes beyond oneself. That is something that we know will reduce anxiety and promote well being. So that's, you know, a very simple summary of how each of the four pillars can contribute to reducing a person's anxiety. Wow. Thank you. That was beautifully done. It was like a real synopsis. It gives a feeling for each of them. And I know there's incredible nuance on where you can go with any. It was interesting when you went to the insight level, you went right for the deep one, you know, who's aware of this and so on. Usually when we're fearful, we have to, at least for me, I have to, the fear has to get calmed a little before I can see meaningfully into that there's not a self, you know, to be identified with the fear. But one of the questions I find really helpful in the insight and inquiry is what is this fear or anxiety trying to do for you? What does it need? What does it need right in this moment? Because then we can actually, and part of connection for me is connection with our own experience. So then we can actually begin to sense the what we are that's larger, that's kind of holding it with kindness. So I see in each of the categories so many possibilities, which is why they're so valid. They're so comprehensive. And the other thing, I mean, I had a lot of thoughts as you were speaking, is I love that when you talk about core values or purpose that in a deep way there's that sense of if we can feel how what's going on can in some way connect to the welfare of others, that we have more compassion for others, others feel this too, we can feel our compassion, it may this serve to awaken, it actually quiets the anxiety. It's like we become bigger. And if we take it one step further, there's that phrase, you know, that action absorbs anxiety, that we then act on behalf of others. And in any moment that I'm fearful, if I do something for someone else, I'm calm down, because again, I get bigger than the fearful self. So I found a lot of what you said. Here's a similar one, Richie, that right now in a lot of the groups I'm running, people feel so isolated, they feel so separate, and I know connections all about addressing that. But can you speak a little more about how someone who really doesn't feel like they have much belonging can begin to take some steps, daily steps to establish more of a feeling of being part of this world? Yeah, that's a challenging issue. And, you know, I think, first of all, it's important to point out at the outset there are many ways of doing this. There's not just one way. And each person needs to find what's really best for her or himself. And so, having said that, we can begin, I think, by cultivating appreciation. I think appreciation is the most accessible quality for many people that begins to help them connect to others. And you can begin by simply reflecting on who at some point in your life has been helpful to you. And begin with these easy relationships and cultivate a sense of appreciation for them and for what they may have done to be helpful. And it can then scaffold from that point. But in addition, I think that there are ways of connecting to others that you don't even know. Just really simple things. So if you are checking out, you know, at a grocery store and simply smile at the person at the cashier and wish them a good day, those really tiny social interactions that many of us have throughout the day are really helpful and they add up. I think one of the biggest challenges is that the amount of time that people are actually spending in the physical presence of others has declined dramatically over the last 15 years. It's not just COVID related. COVID certainly exacerbated that. But this is a trend that has preceded COVID. And of course, many viewers probably know that in 2023, the then Surgeon General of the United States, Vivek Murthy, issued an urgent health advisory on loneliness and social isolation. And he reviewed a lot of scientific evidence there, some of which was quite dramatic and really a wake up call for us. One of the things that was noted in this report is that loneliness is a greater risk factor for premature mortality than his smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Wow, didn't know that. So it's, you know, this is something that is biologically real, so to speak, it gets under our skin and really affects us. And so, you know, I think that when people begin to, even if they are socially isolated and don't see others very much, if they bring others into their mind in their heart, I think that this will increase the likelihood that they will actually have in real life social connections. That's actually a hypothesis. It's not actually been verified scientifically. But I think it's certainly a reasonable conjecture. And we do know that the simple practice that is done just in our mind is helpful in and of itself, but I'm sure that doing it in real life will add benefit as well. Being an interesting research project, wouldn't it? Yes, it would. We get a group and have them actually imagine, because we know that the brain changes as you imagine. Imagine contacting in a way that's helpful, appreciative, whatever, and without too much fear, imagine it, and then see if it inclines. I think that'd be really interesting. And I want to highlight what you said. It can be very tiny, but really regular ways when we're out in the world of just intentionally being friendly. Like, I did this whole practice on it. Yeah, but it really works. Yeah. And one of the things that we often encourage is that when we do these practices by ourselves, part of the practice is to actually think about how you might express your appreciation and gratitude to the person you're imagining the next time you encounter them. So actually really go through the steps of imagining what would you say to that person? And that, I think, will increase the likelihood that you'll actually connect with that person and say something to that person, which will help with decreasing social isolation. Beautiful. Beautiful. So not only reflecting on their goodness, you're sensing how you might acknowledge it to them and then inclining you to actually do it, because... Exactly. ...there is no greater gift we give each other than to mirror back goodness. So I love that. Yes. Okay, here's one I'm very curious about. More from you on cultivating compassion. And let me give you the background to why I ask, because so often compassion is abstract. I can easily be in an abstract compassion when I hear about horrible things and things that people suffer through. And I know the difference between that and a more visceral, tender resonance in my body. So how do we cultivate that? And also speak to the difference between compassion and empathy, if you will. Sure. Yeah. Lots of juicy topics. So first on compassion and empathy, empathy is about feeling the emotions of another person. So if I'm with a person who, for example, is in pain, or, for example, anxious, and I'm empathizing with them, I will feel anxious if they're anxious, or I will actually feel their pain if they're in pain. And that sense of feeling their anxiety or feeling their pain is real, so to speak. We know that the empathizer will show changes in his or her brain that mimic the changes that are present in the person who's experiencing those emotions. That's what empathy is. It is this kind of emotional resonance. Compassion is totally different, totally different. There's actually no overlap in the brain networks that are activated when you show compassion to a person who's in pain or who is anxious, compared to showing empathy. No overlap. So compassion is the disposition to relieve the suffering of another. And it's really very, very different. The brain shows activation in motivational pathways, in pathways associated with positive emotion, and in action networks that are associated with actually acting. Because compassion is really a preparation for acting. So that when suffering is encountered, the moment suffering is encountered, there would be a disposition to act. That's what compassion is. So there are many different ways to cultivate compassion. And there are various kinds of meditation strategies that are found in the Buddhist tradition. They're also in other spiritual traditions. And some of them involve imagining a person, a specific person who may be suffering, who may have some challenges in their life, and then cultivating the aspiration that they be relieved of suffering and that they be happy. And you asked about the difference between kind of abstract compassion and embodied compassion. And one important way in which we can do that is to include within our awareness the awareness of our bodies when we're doing that practice. So we know that compassion is indeed an embodied practice. One of the areas of the brain that is strongly activated during compassion practice is an area of the brain called the insula. And the insula is a part of the brain that is really the most important part of the brain in connecting the brain to the body. The insula has a representation of all the different visceral organs in our body in the insula. And it's responsible for this bi-directional communication between the brain and the body. And when we engage in compassion practices, the insula is very strongly activated. And there are certain kinds of meditation practices, for example, Tung Len in the Tibetan tradition that involves breathing in a person suffering and breathing out compassion or love or whatever the related quality might be. And because it's tied to the inhale and the exhale, it's a very embodied practice. And when you're doing that practice, you're very likely to feel things in your body because it's anchored to the breath in that way. Wow. This is really helpful. And I think what I am trying to best understand is when I imagine someone suffering, that brings up empathy. But it doesn't stay as the kind of empathy where I lock into my amygdala activated and feeling because there's mindfulness. So I would imagine that empathy plus mindfulness equals compassion and that it really does activate different part of the brain because of the mindfulness. The mindfulness reduces the amygdala and whatever activation, but that empathy is a part of it. And so that's what I guess that's a question to you. I really defer to you and it's something I haven't quite understood. Yeah, it's a great question. And what I would say is that empathy is often a prerequisite for compassion. It might be even a necessary prerequisite in most cases for compassion. I certainly think that it's a prerequisite over the course of one's practice or over the course of development. It's a prerequisite, but I think that there are very experienced practitioners who can go right into compassion and sort of bypass empathy, but that's the result of a lifetime of practice. I think when they were perhaps at earlier stages of practice, they may have been more intentionally having empathy, which then gets transformed into compassion. So that's just a conjecture. But in general, I think it's useful to think of it in exactly the way you're thinking of it, Tara, where empathy is really a precursor. And it's really from the genuine experience of another person's suffering that then really motivates the compassion which comes next. Exactly. And our own. I mean, if I don't have the capacity to be embodied and feel my own suffering, I don't... If I can do that and feel mindful, then it becomes a compassionate presence with the suffering. But I have to go through the embodied sense of the pain or the hurt to evoke that. And this is a kind of connected question that I'm really curious about. Because compassion is so expressed or correlated with the motivational pathways and the action pathways, it would seem that a part of training and flourishing would be training and compassionate actions. That that itself, because the more you do compassionate actions, it reinforces the pathways. And is that so? Is that an integral part of some of the trainings that you offer? You know, it's a great question. It's something that we have systematically studied. And I really, to the best of my knowledge, it has not been systematically studied by anyone, but it's a great question. And I would totally agree with your intuition that training that included actual compassionate action is perhaps especially important in really cultivating this quality. Great. I love your response because it's like a to be continued thing that is probably the most compelling to me because of where we are in the world, that it seems like the most compelling thing is that we humans evolve to more fully manifest compassion and compassion and action to be able to hold hands and save what we can save. And I'm going to bookmark that because I'd love to talk to you more about it. I have a couple of questions about insight and inquiry. I just wanted to toss it at you and I know we don't have much time and I'm so interested in it. You do a beautiful section on the power of really being curious, that when we get stuck when we, you know, in some way or regressed, whatever it is, using curiosity and questions to open up and learn and grow. And you go on different levels, your questions. I mean, you have the very deep level where you talk about how in your research, you know, with the monks that the inquiry was really how is the object of awareness separate from awareness, which is the kind of questions of, you know, really, who's aware, what is awareness. And then you have other levels which says, you know, what's going on inside me right now, what is this need. I'm just curious if you could speak about yourself and inquiries that work for you when you get caught in anything, if you get caught in anything ever these days, like what what helps. They're caught in plenty of things. Yeah, you know, I, I certainly think that I use a combination of practices that I've become familiar with over the years I mean I've been meditating now for more than 50 years I went on my first meditation retreat in 1974. So, and I've been pretty much meditating daily since then, with the exception of a little period when my kids were very young. So, I know that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think that curiosity, and I should say that my practice has also evolved it's gone through many different sort of phases, and I've practiced in a number of different traditions, and curiosity has become more important to me over time, and it's, it's something that has helped me. And, and so, you know, when I do get stuck, if I am able to, if I'm sufficiently aware to recognize that I've been stuck, that I am stuck, which is certainly not always, you know, we may recognize it, you know, at some point further down the line. I'm not going to speak, not right in the heat of the moment. But to then begin, you know, one of the things that I find really helpful that's so simple is just imagine another person who you respect with a different perspective, how they would see the same situation, how they would respond. And that immediately changes things for me. You know, it just, wow, if so and so was in this situation, she would really respond differently. And that, that little mindset shift is, is really sufficient to help kind of break the identification. And so, I find that that's very accessible to me. And it's something that I have learned to do more over time. And is the beginning of some, some useful shift and useful change. So that's one thing. And then, you know, if it's stuck in, you know, in something like my own emotion, whether it's fear or, or pain, you know, the, the asking myself, is it really all of me that's feeling this? Is there any part of me that's not that's one that also is really helpful? And then really that begins a kind of exploration. You know, where am I feeling this fear? Is it, you know, is it in my body? If it's in my body, where in my body? And is it all over my body? And so it's often a combination of insight and awareness, which together really can be so helpful. And really all four of your dimensions are inter-influencing. So that's why I really love them. And thank you for that. And for making it personal, because those are really, very skillful, cool ways to kind of open up the mind. I mean, I do something similar, which would be feeling stuck in a sometimes sense of what would my most awake heart or my future self in a more manifest. How would that, that domain be relating to this? That's exactly it. Yeah. So we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, we're really, So we're in a really individualistic society. And a lot of the most popular dharma kind of hacks to serve our individual flourishing. And you have a lot about the well-being of all. And it seems like in training these different, you know, dimensions that it's would be really interesting to have collective trainings where we're training together. because one of the possible problems with individual training is it reifies a self that's trying to flourish and it can keep us a little stuck in a self-sense. So have you explored collective trainings? And when I say that, you know, whether it's, you know, you mentioned dialogue, which I think is really, really powerful, but different kinds of inquiry with others, nonviolent communications, restorative justice, you know, these different processes where you actually feel a group creating its group kind of purpose and feeling not just your experience and my experience, but what's the field here? I'm curious about that. Yeah, it's so, that's such a great question, Tara. And it's something that we're really deeply interested in. There's a relatively recent arrival in our center, a woman who's both a neuroscientist and an artist. She's a singer, actually. And she and she's a Sufi. And she is interested in the collective power of group singing as a contemplative practice. And, you know, that's done in the Sufi tradition quite a bit. And so we're actually beginning to explore this, including exploring it at a neuroscientific level. So, you know, with wireless EEG systems, we actually are having people, multiple people, like up to eight people recording brain activity simultaneously while they're together in a group. And looking at the extent to which their brains become synchronized. Be still in my heart. Yeah. And so, you know, we're calling this communal neuroscience, really has not been done before. So it's really quite, I think, resolutionary. And I'm excited about what it may reveal. And certainly have the intuition that it is, as you are yourself, I think, suggesting can be really powerful and important. We know it intuitively. I mean, we know when people pray together, when people mourn together, when people dance to the we know that it creates a collective sense. So if you could leave those that are listening right now with just one invitation into flourishing, one reminder in daily life that might help them remember to remember, what might you say? Well, I would say that it's, you know, it's really easier than we think. And if you can find an activity of daily living that you do on a regular basis. So just to add one other thing, one of the things I always do is around eating. You know, we all need to eat. And so this is a natural activity. And if we can remind ourselves when we sit down to eat, and you can do this completely by yourself in your own mind, you know, could be you could be eating with another person, they don't have to know you're doing it. If it's not, you know, appropriate, if it would be socially awkward. But you can simply reflect on all the people it took to bring food to your plate, whether you know them or not. And allow this natural sense of appreciation and gratitude to arise. And given that we eat, you know, at least a few times every day on, you know, most days, this is something that really can can infuse every day. And it's so simple. And if we can just find whatever activity of daily living it is, whether it's eating, you can even be brushing your teeth. But some activity of daily living that you do every day, and pair that with a simple practice that reminds you of flourishing. May all beings flourish. Thank you, dear. It's been wonderful to have you. And I really hope those that are listening, pick up this book born to flourish because it is easier than we think. And it can change everything. So again, thank you. Thank you, Richie. Thank you so much, Tara. I really appreciate you, everything you're doing to spread these messages to so many people. Thank you. Okay. Blessings, dear. Blessings. Bye.