Dr. Shannon Ritchey: Why You’re Not Seeing Results in The Gym (Do THIS 4-Part Strength Framework to Completely Transform your Body

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Sale now on at AO. Get savings on washing machines, TVs and much more from brands like Hotpoint, Samsung and AEG. All from the UK's most trusted electrical retailer. Shop now at AO.com. Let's go! Verify most trusted at AO.com slash trust. You can forget everything else you know about fitness and just focus on these four things. Reps, R-E-P-S. The R stands for repetitions training two failure or one to three reps shy of failure in every exercise. Exercise selection is number two. Choosing one muscle group to work at a time. P is protein, eating 0.75 to one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And S is structure, working each muscle group two times per week on non-consecutive days. If you follow these four things, I can guarantee you will see muscle growth. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I've wanted to talk to for quite some time now because she's going to help us do exactly that. Dr. Shannon Richie is a physical therapist and the founder of Everlo Fitness, a rapidly growing science-backed fitness platform helping thousands of people rethink everything they've been taught about exercise. If you feel like you're doing everything right in the gym but still not seeing results, this conversation will change the way you think about fitness. Please welcome to On Purpose, Shannon Richie. Shannon, it's great to have you here. Thank you, I'm thrilled to be here. A lot of us are trying to apply all this advice we hear on social media and on the internet and everywhere else but we're not seeing the change in our body. Yes. And you've spent years now helping people do exactly this. So the first thing I want to do with you is actually start by busting some myths. I want to dive right in. Oh, yay. Okay, love that. Because I feel like we should just get right in there. Let's do it, yes. The first one is you'll only lose weight if you're doing tons of cardio. This is such a pervasive one. And I think that the reason it's so damaging is because, A, it doesn't really work and I'll explain why in a moment. And B, it makes us believe that our workouts need to smash us in order to be effective. What we do is they add endless amounts of exercise and they don't see results. So they either give up and burn out and they become less active overall, which we know is not good. Or they double down and they work even harder and this burns them out more. And as a physical therapist, I saw this all the time. Then you're in my office with joint pain and disrupted hormones and you feel horrible. You have a horrible mindset around exercise. So I think that when you learn the science, it really helps you focus on the right things. And more than that, it helps you redefine what an effective workout looks like and your mindset around exercise improves. So all that to say, here's why exercise is just not a very efficient tool for fat loss. So studies consistently find that adding cardio without nutritional changes results in really underwhelming weight loss, maybe just a few pounds over a year. And that's a long time to be working out really hard and only have like a few pounds of a difference. And the reason for this is because our body compensates. So our body doesn't like large energy deficits. So as we add more exercise, your body adapts to burn fewer calories in other places throughout your body so that you stay within this narrow window of calorie expenditure. So overall, we're burning far fewer calories than we think when we add exercise. And at the same time, people typically can easily eat to replace those calories or sometimes even overeat because they've overestimated how much they've burned. And this can make them either not see very great results or sometimes even gain weight when they're adding exercise, feeling like they're working really hard and not seeing results. So that's why I just like to recommend separating exercise and fat loss. If fat loss is your goal, you're so much better off focusing on nutrition and strength training, which hopefully we can get into a lot, but strength training so that you are at least maintaining or maybe even building muscle so that any weight loss is coming from fat, not muscle. The next one is no pain, no gain, which I think kind of speaks to what you just spoke about, like this idea of just destroying yourself in the gym. But what's your take on no pain, no gain? I think that this comes from decades of marketing and messaging that, especially in American culture, that we need to hustle and we need to work harder. And then if it doesn't hurt and it's not brutal, it's not going to change your body. And like I just discussed, we see that that type of workout doesn't necessarily result in a lot of weight loss or body composition changes, which is typically why people do those types of workouts. So you feel like you're working out really, really hard, but you're not actually seeing results. So I like to teach people, okay, what is the stimulus that does change your body composition? And you'll find that when you apply the right things, you no longer feel like you have to smash yourself. You no longer feel like no pain, no gain is the only way. And when you start to do this, not only will you see better results, but you'll feel more consistent with exercise because it doesn't physically drain you as much and it doesn't mentally drain you as much. It's easier to show up for. It's what we call gentle consistency. So yeah, I'm not a believer in no pain. Okay, very, very clear again. This one, running ruins your knees. Running does not ruin your knees if it's in the right amounts. If you overdo any forms of exercise, your joints will pay for it. And again, we saw that, I saw this as a physical therapist all the time. You get tendonitis from overuse or joint wear and tear. So adding running doesn't inherently wreck your knees. It's that it has to be in the right amounts and you have to progress up to it appropriately. The problem is many people start running again to lose weight and they overdo it and they don't see the weight loss. So they either add more of her themselves out and their body hurts because it's just too much for their body to handle. Their body hasn't adapted to that stress yet. Got it. Wow, I feel like I'm learning so much already. And I feel like these are things that we hear everywhere, right? Like these are things that your parents said to you, your friends are saying to you, and they kind of get stuck in our minds and then we never even questioned them. Right. And so, okay, got a couple more of these before we dive into some deeper subjects here. You must work out every day. I do not believe that you should work out every day. At least not intense exercise every day. Your body needs recovery. If we look at, I like to think about exercise as this stimulus recovery adaptation loop. And you need all three of those things. So the stimulus is the workout and what you do in your workout matters. There is high quality stimulus and low quality stimulus. We can get into all of this, but you need a high quality stimulus and then you need to give your body time to adapt and repair. And that repair process is the magic. And that's what people want to skip right past and just go right up to the adaptation of the results because they're impatient and they just want to see results faster. But your body does not adapt when it is overstressed. It adapts when it gets the appropriate stress. It has time to recover. And then that's when you build muscle, improve endurance, improve whatever you're setting out to do. So recovery is a big piece of that. And so I do believe that taking days off, active recovery days, it's not like you're just sitting on the couch all day long. We still want to be active overall, but taking days off structured exercise is very important. Thank you for allowing me to have my two days off. You're welcome. You take two, which is exactly what I would recommend. Take those days. You still want to do things, but not smashing your body because your body needs time to repair. Otherwise you'll just spin in chronic low-grade inflammation. So yes, that's perfect. You're doing just the right thing. Couple more of these. Women shouldn't lift heavy weights because it will make them bulky. This is not true. If we look at this bulky appearance, that typically involves a lot of muscle mass. And muscle mass takes at least three months to build substantial amounts of it. And beyond that, it takes years to develop these physiques that most women would consider bulky. So lifting heavy does not inherently create that bulky appearance. What creates that bulky appearance is usually years of training, usually training at high volumes and potentially also having fat on top of your body so that you just have more mass in general. So yes, that is a myth that lifting heavy weights immediately makes you bulky. Yeah, absolutely. I think that one's lasted far too long. Too long. Okay, this one, let's do... Abs are made in the kitchen. This is kind of true, kind of not. So you can build your abdominal muscles through focused abdominal work. But in order to see the muscle underneath, and this goes for any muscle, not just your abdominals, you have to have less body fat on top to see the muscle. And this goes for your shoulder muscles, your leg muscles, all of the muscles, but we think of the abs. It's different than the rest of our body for some reason. But yes, so in order to see the muscle underneath, you have to have a low enough body fat percentage. So diet is important for that. But also you can build your abdominal muscles through exercise. So it's a little bit of both. Okay, brilliant. Great start. This is very useful already to kind of get us out of these kind of limiting beliefs that we have, these structures that have kind of been set up over time. And I feel like so much of working out and so much of getting fit and healthy, if someone listened to all your advice today and they practically applied it, they followed your program, what would change in their life? The first thing is just seeing better physical results. I think that that is important for people, not only aesthetically, but your health. Having more muscle and having a more fit body is important for our health. But beyond that, smashing your body less and having a better relationship with your body and exercise and not feeling guilty for taking days off, not feeling guilty when you take a week off for vacation, knowing that not everything is going to fall apart if you back off a little bit or if you're sick. So helping people understand the science of how our body adapts and changes really is this holistic approach. You see better results, you have a better mindset around your body and exercise, and your body feels better physically. You don't feel so worn down and depleted and exhausted because you're not smashing yourself every single day. Yeah, it feels like there's such a mindset piece there as well. Yes. Because what you're saying is we're trying to accelerate those results. We want to see the Mesape, and because of that, we'll push ourselves to our limits. Those limits mean we give up sooner, we can't stick to a schedule, and then all of a sudden in two months of your lucky, you're giving up, if not in two weeks, because you're just so exhausted and depleted. Yes, and I see that cycle over and over and over and over, and it's one of the reasons why people are not seeing results because we have the rest of our lives to work out, which means we need to be smart about how we're treating our bodies. We can't put our bodies through the ringer and expect that to be sustainable. And so the sooner you can learn the stimulus that changes your body, because I'm not saying that your workout should be easy, I'm not saying that, but I am saying having the correct effort in placing your body under correct load in the right amounts, adding in cardio, having your rest days, having this balanced approach will get you so much further than this kind of start-stop yo-yo mentality that so many of us kind of end up doing. And I even have my own experience with this because I've been in the fitness and treat for like 15 years, and so I've taken all of the certifications, done all the things, and five, 10 years ago, I was smashing my body with exercise. I was doing all of the things that women are taught to do to get fit, light weights, high rep, no recovery days, trying to burn as many calories as possible, trying to get really sweaty, and all this did for my body was leave me with so-so fitness results. Like, it kind of got me a little bit of the way there, but I was like, oh, I'm just not working hard enough. I need to go work harder. And my body had chronic pain all over, so at the age of 24, I felt like I was 90. My body was completely falling apart. My wrists were always hurting. I had chronic back pain, hip pain, but this is what so many of us are taught as a physical therapist when I was practicing. I saw so many of my patients dealing with the same things. They thought that they weren't seeing results because they just weren't working hard enough, but their body hurt all over because of their workout. So I do think that when you can shift to what works, because when I shifted, I got in the best shape of my life. I built eight pounds of muscle and lost five pounds of fat over one year. And over that time, I worked out for far less than I ever had. I used to work out for like 60 minutes and then started working out for like 35 minutes. Rarely did I burn very many calories or break a sweat. My body didn't hurt. I had a better mindset around exercise, and yes, I also saw the best physical results that I had ever seen. So, yeah, it comes from first understanding and learning the science and then applying it over and over and over and giving your body long enough. What's something that science has taught you about our bodies that you think we're unaware of or ignore? I think one of the biggest mistakes I see, like we talked about, is using exercise as a tool to burn fat or lose fat or using it as your primary tool. But then what people do is they're like, okay, I'm going to use my workouts to build muscle. Great. Love that. But they still end up doing the wrong workouts that don't build muscle. And one kind of really helpful reframe that helped me is differentiating between muscle fatigue and muscle failure. So the science shows that to build muscle, you need to train close to failure in every single exercise, every single set. You don't have to train all the way to failure. You can. Or you can stop one to three reps shy. So failure means that you are physically unable to do another rep. So let's say you're doing bicep curls. You cannot physically do another rep despite your best efforts. You can do anywhere from four-ish reps all the way up to 30 reps or anywhere in between. You can just choose what you prefer. But your last rep needs to be really challenging. But I think often what people do is they confuse fatigue with failure. Let's, I used to do this all the time. I would go to a group fitness class and be holding like a lunge position for like three, five minutes straight. And that feels really hard and really fatiguing and lots of burn, lots of shake. But it's not, fatigue does not reliably build muscle. Failure does. So one really helpful tool that I like to give people that's changed the game for me and for our membership and many people that I talk to is called the rest test. So this will help you differentiate between fatigue and muscle failure. Oh, I know this. Yeah. Yeah. So you'll have to try this too in your next workout. So what you do is do your final rep. And if you think you are at failure or near failure, set the weight down, break for like five seconds, shake out, take a time. Take a tiny little break, just a few seconds, pick up the weights and try to do more reps. If you could do three or more reps, you were just fatigued. You were not close to true muscular failure. And so that just means go up and wait next time or do more reps so that you get closer to that true muscular failure point because that will be the potent stimulus that changes your body so much more than fatigue will. That's huge. I mean, that's such a big one. I feel like, and it's something that my body naturally makes me want to do. Yes. I noticed that like if I've done 10 reps of something and we're trying to get to 15 at 10, my body's like, all right, I need to take a little three second break. Yes. I need to put the weight weights down, shake it off. Yes. Pick them back up and then I'm like, oh, I could do another 10 now. And you're saying I have to. That's what you're saying is that I should do another 10 if I can, rather than just hit the 15. Well, what I'm saying is when it starts to get hard around that 10 rep range, those are the most stimulating reps. So the reps where you are closest to failure are the most important ones. Right. So let's say you're trying to go to 15 and at 10, that's when you're starting to struggle. Yeah. That is the time to push through and continue trying to get to 15. Even if you don't get to 15, it's not about the number. It's about proximity to failure. So on that 10th rep, you're really, really struggling. Try to do a couple more reps. Try not to break because that means you're reaching a big percentage of the muscle overall. You're reaching what's called your type two muscle fibers. They're the ones that kick in when you have a powerful stimulus when there's a lot of mechanical tension. So those last few reps are the most important. Got it. So actually I shouldn't pause at 10. Shouldn't. I should push myself to maybe 12 or whatever is realistic. Then shake it off. And then what should I do after that? Then shake it off. If you find you could pick your weights up and do three or more reps. That means the weight wasn't heavy enough. So that means go heavier and try to get to whatever rep range you can do. I like to not count reps and this is kind of controversial. Okay, go on. Because I think when you put 15 in your head, you grab a weight that you feel like you could do for 15. But really you could probably do 20, 30 with that weight. Whereas if you just grab a weight that feels challenging and you're like, I don't know how many reps I could do. Maybe somewhere between like eight and 15. Anywhere in there is great because all of that will work for muscle growth. And you just do as many as you possibly can. You often surprise yourself at how strong you are and how many reps you can do. And like I said, getting close to that muscular failure point is the most important part. But it's that piece that so many people are missing because they're stopping when they're tired. I fully agree with you. I know for a fact that when I'm telling my brain I've only got to do 10 of these. Yes. I've just programmed my upper limit. And there are times when I'll do 10 and I know I could have done 13. Yes. But I'm only trying to hit 10 anyway. Like I did 10. I did what I was supposed to do. I did the thing. Totally. But you're not, you might, that set might not be very stimulating. If you apply this one tool, it can change your results. I couldn't agree more. I feel like I've been, I've been sometimes doing it right, but I can tell I'm doing it wrong too. Like what's the, what is the cost of stopping at 10 and then just doing another set? Like what is the cost of not listening to your advice? Growing muscle. We see that if you want to build muscle, those are the most important reps. This isn't to say that doing 10 reps is, and you could do 15. That's not to say that those 10 reps are useless. You're still building strength. You're building neuromuscular connection. You are improving your stability. All of those things are important adaptations that come along with strength training. But when it comes to building muscle, yeah, those last few reps just can't be cheated. Let's stick on this building muscle thing as we're already, and I assume that that's one of the top three things people come to you with. Yes. So we're talking about this rep range. We're talking about the ability to push past, know the difference between fatigue and failure. What else are we getting wrong about building muscle? Because that's something that I think you've clarified that for me in a way that I haven't heard before, and that's huge for me. And I know I can take that into my next workout, which is tomorrow. Thankfully, no way. Tomorrow's Wednesday. Tomorrow is not Thursday. So yes, tomorrow I can take that into my workout. Let me know how it goes. And I love that because I'm going to be thinking about that the whole time. Good. So when I start a set and my trainer, who I have, my PT, is going to say to me, we're going to do four rounds of this. And we're usually doing four rounds of roughly three activities. Great. Love it. Right. And then we're doing another four rounds of another three activities. Great. And then maybe doing another three rounds of another two or three activities in one workout. I think structure is very important. So which muscle groups you're working on which day? Yes. We talked about the importance of recovery. I recommend working each muscle group two-ish times on non-consecutive days in one week. You can split your strength training workouts into three to five strength training workouts, taking those two recovery days, and making sure that you have about 48 hours of recovery in between your muscle groups. So let's say you work glutes on Monday. You probably don't want to work your glutes again until Wednesday at the earliest. Your body needs that recovery time. It's so crucial. But I think what a lot of people do is they want to change their glutes or change their abs or change their arms. And so they'll work that muscle group every single day. But the problem is when you do that, you're not giving your body enough recovery. And the recovery is when you repair and adapt. So that's really crucial. One mistake that I think people make. It sounds like you are already doing this in your training routine, which is great. Yeah, so that's good. So for muscle building, we've got knowing the difference between failure and fatigue. It's huge. And then the second one is making sure that the repair time is at least 48 hours before hitting that muscle group again. Because just overworking that muscle isn't going to win. I think I do have that right. I think I did find for a long time that I was underworking a muscle group too. So like you just said, I should try five, five workouts and I'm doing say back and bice or chest and trice. I need to get two days of each. If you can't. Ideally in a week. Yes. Because I think for a long time I was doing one of each and I wasn't seeing the benefit either because I was doing the muscle group too little now. Yes. And we see there was a recent meta analysis about this that found that twice a week is the sweet spot for muscle growth. And that frequency matters hitting that muscle group again. And this is just yet another reason why you can't smash yourself in your workout because you know you have to turn around and work that muscle group again in a few days in order to keep compounding those results. Attention. Attention. Rail travelers, platform paces, window gazers and arm rest negotiators. Have you heard the big rail fare freeze is here. Railfares have been frozen across England until March 2027 on standard class tickets, including off peak anytime and season tickets. For more information, visit nationalrail.co.uk slash fares freeze. Season season exclusions apply. How sore should you feel if I'm working a muscle group? So like you gave the example, you worked your glutes on a Monday, you're going to work them again on a Wednesday. Like how sore do you want to feel on a Monday and the Tuesday before you get back to your own Wednesday? Such a good question. I think this is something that holds a lot of people back. Light to no muscle soreness is ideal. And I think that we over index on soreness because it's proof that we worked that muscle. It feels satisfying. It feels good. But studies consistently show that it's a poor indication of muscle growth. Soreness typically happens when you do a new movement pattern or if you add significant load or challenge to the muscle that you're not used to. And soreness typically happens when there is damage to the muscle or connective tissue like fascia. And that causes an inflammation cycle, which causes the tissues to be sensitive. So that's what soreness is. But we just consistently see that it's not a very good way to measure if your workout worked. And so again, because we want to hit those muscle groups again in a few days, we want light to no muscle soreness so that you can show up to your next workout and put in really high quality stimulus for those muscles. And that's what again keeps compounding those results. And are people, do you think a big part of that is also bad sleep? Yes. In terms of the soreness piece? Or is it really to do with just pushing yourself so hard? That's so interesting. I wonder if there is literature that says you get more sore if you are under slept. I'm not sure, but just based on what I understand about the body, it does make sense. Yeah. It means that you are under recovered. So if you are chronically sore, yeah, you're under recovering, which is not beneficial. People think like, oh, I'm so sore all the time. That means I'm seeing results, but the results again are happening when you are allowing your body time to recover. So yeah, I think that if you're so sore all the time and you're still applying all these principles that we're talking about, maybe it means that you need to dial back volume or frequency slightly so that you can work within your own recovery capacity. Because it's easy to say like sleep more, like everyone knows sleep is so important, but if you're like me, I have a baby and I'm like, well, that's just it is what it is. I can't get as much sleep as I would like to in a perfect world. I would love to get nine hours, but that's just not practical for me right now. So I might kind of dial back my intensity or my volume a little bit so that I'm staying within my own recovery window. And what you're saying is that even in the case that you have two beautiful babies under two. Yes. That hasn't necessarily negatively affected muscle building for you if your sleep recovery is not as strong. Why have you felt the difference? You know, I don't think I have. I think I have continued to see results even with two under two. And I think that I knew the power of all of this like before having this, but now I'm in the most chaotic season of my life ever like running a business with two under two is just wild. And yet I'm still getting stronger than I've ever been. And it just goes to show the power of all of this. Like if you are giving your body the right signals over and over and over and over, you're not going to feel under recovered. You just won't. If we're going to the extremes of this and you're only getting like four hours of sleep and all of those things like, yes, you do need to back things off from what we're recommending. But for the most part, most average Americans can do exactly what we're saying and see great results and recover from it. This is such helpful advice. Everything you're saying feels practical and doable. And it's also reassuring to me because I feel that light to moderate soreness. And I've been questioning whether I'm not pushing hard enough because I'm like, oh, maybe I'm not working out hard enough and maybe I need to increase the intensity of my workout. And hearing that from you is so helpful because I actually walk into my morning workout feeling pretty refreshed. Yes. And really excited to work out because my body feels like it can take on more rather than walking into it going, oh my gosh, I'm still really sure from yesterday. The only time I ever feel that is after leg day. Yes. There's something about legs that like only feel worse 24 hours and 48 hours in. Is that normal? Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, they're just bigger muscle groups and quads specifically. I don't know if you find quads anecdotally. Again, I've looked this up and I'm not sure what the reason is, but quads and glutes tend to get more sore. And that could be because, and again, this is like up for debate, but there's an interesting theory that soreness actually is from more fascia damage, fascial damage rather than muscle tissue damage. Fascia is richly innervated, which means that it's very sensitive. So when you're working bigger muscles that just have more fascia surrounding the muscles, there's a higher ceiling for more damage in the fascia. So that's what creates more soreness. So I just like to say, just don't worry too much about soreness. If you're constantly sore, it probably means you're doing too much or you could afford to take an extra recovery day or something like that. But I just don't recommend chasing soreness because it's just not a very reliable indicator. Yeah, don't chase soreness. Okay, got it. And in terms of as we're still focusing on building muscle, the way we're currently talking about is we're splitting up groups. Yes. So I was saying back in by is triceps, your chest and tricep. Is that the way you think about building muscle or is there another way to think about it? Am I getting it wrong? Yes, absolutely. There are so many different ways you could split up your muscle work. I will say exercise selection is very important. So you want to bias one muscle group at a time. Don't choose an exercise that works your upper body and lower body at the same time because as we talked about training to failure is really important. And when you're working upper body and lower body in the same exercise, it's difficult to know, are my arms limiting factor? Are my legs the limiting factor? Or am I just stopping because I hit 10 reps and that's what the trainer told me to do. So separating, doing arm workout separate from your leg workout, core workout separate from your leg workout and keeping each muscle group separate tends to be more effective and productive. But you can split that work into whatever makes sense for you in your life. I like to do, I do five strength training workouts that are 35 minutes. So they're not very long. It's just the FLO five time per week track. Monday's upper body. So we're working for three to four muscle groups in the upper body, Tuesday's lower body. And Wednesday, Thursday, Friday are a mix of full body. So we are making sure to separate each muscle group so that you're not working the same muscle group on consecutive days. But that's not necessarily the only way you can split it up. You can do it as you were talking about. You can do back and by one day or test and try and then legs or however makes sense for you. There's so many different ways to kind of slice and dice it. Okay. Good to know. I'm not making sure that my workout makes sense. I got you. Yeah. Checking all the boxes. I'm checking it out for you. That makes sense. Is there something I could be doing to build muscle faster? Yes. You can build muscle faster when you increase what's called volume. So sets taken close to failure. So studies show I like to kind of back this up and talk about the minimum effective dose because I think this is really important for people to understand what's the minimum that I need to be doing to see results. And then we can play and work on that and build upon that and talk about kind of the maximum as well. So the minimum effective dose for muscle growth is around four sets per muscle group per week. So four sets of glutes, four sets of quads, four sets of chest, four sets of shoulders spread across your week. That's kind of the minimum amount that we see will reliably build muscle. Some studies find even one hard set per muscle group per week, but I like to recommend four. From there, you can build upon that. So we do moderate volume and evalode just because it's really easy to recover from. It is effective and your workouts don't take a long time. So it's really easy to show up for, but it's very effective. So our volume tends to be around six to eight sets per muscle group per week, but you can do more than that and continue to see gains. You're just seeing diminished returns as you add more than like 10 sets per muscle group per week. But yes, you can do higher volume work and see faster muscle growth. Just make sure that you're recovering because if you're not recovering, then you're not growing. Is there anything that I missed about building muscle? We didn't talk about protein, did we? Yes. So protein is, and I am not formally trained a nutrition, so I like to keep this really high level and leave that to the RDS like your wife. But protein is essential and how you're fueling to rebuild your muscle tissue is essential. So the RDS that we work with typically recommend 0.75 to one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. Anecdotally, I have found that when I stay on the higher end of that, I do see better results. Yeah. So I used to not track my food and I wasn't building muscle. And when I started tracking, I noticed that I was eating about half the amount that I should to build muscle. And I was like, okay, no wonder. I'm not seeing muscle growth. So I upped my protein and that really did help me. So that's, I guess, another way to make sure that you're building muscle faster. So when I was doing that, what I found is that I was getting bigger overall. So I was building more muscle for sure, but my body was just getting bigger. And so I've literally got like end of last year. No, it was end of the year before last, sorry. So it was like two years ago where I really started following that protein goal. And if I showed you a picture of me now versus a picture of me then, I couldn't fit into my suits. I couldn't, like my pants were all growing in size. And that was me not, it wasn't like it was protein. It wasn't sugars and fats or carbs. I was eating high, I was eating that dose of protein. I didn't like what was happening. And I don't know if it's, I wasn't doing enough cardio. I never really figured it out. I just realized I didn't like that much bulk. And so I cut down on my protein, but that's also slowed down my muscle build. So talk to me about what was happening then two years ago when I was eating the recommended dose of protein, but I just looked, felt and was bigger. And like I said, I couldn't fit into my clothes. Everything was tighter. I definitely, you know, I just felt like I was putting on weight more than building muscle. I'm so glad you're bringing this up because I think this is a very common goal for people. They want what's called body recomposition. So they want more muscle, but they don't want more fat or they want less fat. And this is a process that involves proper nutrition. So like we said, enough protein, but also potentially a slight calorie deficit or even in your eating, in your calorie maintenance and then proper strength training. So, and you do need to do cardio. Cardio is important for keeping your overall energy expenditure high, but you don't need to overdo the cardio or rely on cardio to lose fat because then you're just going to overdo it. So when you have those principles, you're eating in a slight calorie deficit or at your maintenance. And that might involve tracking. And I know tracking isn't for everyone, but if you do have that goal, it might be illuminating to take a week and just kind of track your food and see where you're landing on your overall calories. See where you're landing on your overall protein because my guess is maybe you were unintentionally trying to get more protein and eating in a calorie surplus. 100% I didn't realize that. Yes, you might have been gaining fat and muscle at the same time. And that's typically going back to that bulky conversation that can happen to women when they're gaining lean mass, they're gaining muscle mass, but they're also gaining fat mass at the same time because they're unintentionally eating in a calorie surplus. So the reason I like body recomposition, it's kind of that quote unquote toned look that a lot of people are searching for. But the reason I like body recomposition is because it makes you focus on your muscle mass, which is crucial for women as we all people. We are undermuscled as a society. And so when we focus on our muscle, everything else kind of falls into place. You can't under fuel or you won't build muscle. You can't over train or you won't build muscle. So applying all of the nutrition and strength training things together will maybe be a slower process, but so much more sustainable and you'll end up being a lot happier with the aesthetic outcome of that. I think you're spot on. I was, I think without knowing I was eating around 3000 calories a day and like my, you know, I need to be at 2500 or in a deficit like at a 2000 or 2200 or whatever it is. And so for me, it was, I was definitely doing that. And not only was I not happy about just like not being able to fit into my normal clothes or whatever it was, it was also not leading to the results that I was looking for. Yeah. And so what I've had to do and I wanted to get your sense on this. So now I do about 80 to 100 grams of protein, which is significantly less than what I was doing. So before I was doing like 150 or something like that. Now I'm at like 80 to 100 grams of protein a day. Is that just slowing down how long it takes to build muscle for me even, but that is also more aligned with my goals because I'm able to do that with a calorie deficit. Whereas if I was to 150 grams, I'd probably been a calorie surplus, obviously on plant based. So that applies to it. But also because honestly, I was struggling with like my gut was not enjoying 150 grams of protein. My gut just couldn't take that. Do you hear that at all from people where they just can't digest that amount of protein? Yes, especially if they're using lots of like powders and stuff. I hear that a lot. Training stimulus is the most important for muscle growth. You do need protein and protein eating at a higher amount of protein might make your workout more effective. So, but it doesn't mean that you won't build muscle at all. The training stimulus is the most important part. So I love what you're saying because I think there is kind of guardrails around these things. Like these are the recommendations of what you can do, but you can tinker within this and find what works best in your own lifestyle and what you can stay consistent with. Because the truth is you're probably building muscle. It just might be slower than if you were eating 150 grams per day. Yeah, got it. Yeah, I need to find a way to, I'm testing different protein sources as well. Being plant based. Yes. Really feeling like the powders and the bars and stuff are just not great. And trying to find them naturally but without adding the calorie surplus. It's so hard. Which is like a really interesting dynamic. Yes, it's so hard because like if you're eating tofu and beans and things to get that amount of protein without being in as overall calorie surplus is difficult. Yeah, it is hard. What does your wife think about all that? No, she agrees. We're both tinkering with this stuff all the time. Yeah. And I think the reason why I wanted to have this very open and honest conversation with you here on the show is because I think this is the kind of stuff people are really dealing with and struggling to. Totally. Where they're just like, well, what about this and what about this? And you know, it's good to hear from you that, hey, you can be personalized about it and it is going to look different for everyone. Totally. But being real about what that means and what your results look like and then not having these crazy expectations. Totally. And it's just going to take time for you to learn what you can fit into your life. I talk about this all the time with like exercise selection. We've been taught that we have to do squats and overhead presses and deadlifts. But what we see from the literature is there is a wide variety of exercises that will be effective to build muscle. So you just choose the ones that feel good in your body that you enjoy, that you can take close to true muscular failure. I think a lot of people can relate to this. Like let's say you're doing an exercise that you hate. I used to hate Bulgarian split squats. Oh, I still hate Bulgarian split squats. Something switched to me and now I love them. I don't know what happened. We can't be friends anymore. Yeah, right. I know a lot of people hate them. It's understandable. They're very hard. But if you hate Bulgarian split squats, you're more likely to stop that exercise because of overall discomfort or boredom or you're just ready for it to be over. Rather than taking that exercise close to true muscular failure. So instead of doing the Bulgarian split squat, which you know you don't like, let's choose a different exercise that targets the same muscle group. Maybe you're targeting glutes. Maybe you love hip thrusts and you find I can reliably get close to failure every single time in hip thrusts. I don't feel distracted. I feel locked in. Like it feels very satisfying. Just do the hip thrusts and you're more likely to see better results because you're training closer to true muscular failure. You're not stopping because of discomfort or boredom or any of those things. I'm telling my trainer that. Does he make you do the hard things? Yeah, of course. All the hard things. I'm going to tell him. I look like I heard from Shannon that I don't need to do these Bulgarian split squats anymore. Well, it's like, and I know a lot of people will fight me about that, but it's... No, I get the point. The point makes sense. The point is, and it makes you more consistent because if you know your workout will be filled with exercises that feel really good for your body, and this isn't to say that anything goes. I'm not saying that. I'm also not saying that your workout should be easy. But when you choose exercises that really work with your body because exercise is physics, a lot of the reason why we don't like an exercise could be because of the physical length of our bones. For example, in squats, you might have longer legs, longer femurs, and so you have to bend forward more in a squat just to keep yourself from falling over. So squats might feel really low backy for you, and therefore you might feel like, I don't feel comfortable in a squat. I feel like it's going to hurt my back. I don't like them. I don't feel like I can push close to failure. So a barbell squat might not be the best exercise for you, but that's your body proportions. There's nothing wrong with you. You can just choose a different exercise and carry on. If you're pushing to failure, is there a difference between heavyweight, low reps, or lightweight, high reps? You can see the same strength and muscle growth, whether you are lifting four reps all the way up to 30 reps. As long as your final rep is too failure or near muscular failure, you can use anywhere in between. That might evolve based on your training status, based on the day, based on the exercise. Some exercises I love to go really heavy and do like four or six reps. And some exercises I prefer to go a little lighter and do like eight to 12 reps. You can do all the way up to 30. 30 is kind of, that's kind of brutal. 30 reps. You can do up to 30 reps. Science shows that. In one go. In one go. If you train close to failure, the problem with doing that high of rep is people typically stop because of fatigue, like we talked about earlier. They don't stop because of true muscular failure. But knowing that you have the option of I could do four, I could do 30, I could do anywhere in between, then you can choose a weight that feels comfortable for you. Because I think that's a barrier for a lot of women, especially, is they're like, I don't want to lift heavy. Muscle building isn't for me because I don't want to go lift heavy. Well, you can lift relatively light and go for 20 reps and see the same muscle growth as if you were to lift a heavy barbell for four reps as long as you're training close to failure. There's such a myth around just wanting to lift heavier and lift more and then feeling the pressure of, I can't. Yes. Or whatever it may be. And again, going back to the failure point is far better of a marker than how heavy you're lifting now. Yes. Because some body weight exercises too can get you close to failure. You literally just read my mind. I was about to ask that question next. I was going to ask you, if someone goes, I don't have a gym, I don't have a gym membership, can't afford it, don't have access to one. I have very little time to work out right now. Maybe I have 20 minutes. I only have space to do body weight on my bedroom floor or on my living room floor. What is the difference between body weight and then barbell weights or any other type of weight? If you're training close to failure, it doesn't matter. You can do, I like to use push-ups as an example. A lot of people can't do more than 30 push-ups physically. They would fail before they got to 30 push-ups. And so that is an effective stimulus for building muscle. If you could do more than 30 push-ups, then your body weight is not challenging enough. Pull-ups, same thing. You could do maybe just a few pull-ups before getting close to failure. And that's a body weight exercise. However, there are some body weight exercises that are just difficult to load up enough. So like a lunge, for example, you might feel like you could do 100 lunges or more. Just because they're stronger muscles, they do require external load in the form of a machine, a cable, a barbell, a kettlebell, whatever you have. But this is why I say yes, some body weight exercises can absolutely be effective. But just go back to, can I do more than 30 reps? And if I can, it's not heavy enough. And maybe it means involving or investing in a set of dumbbells or a kettlebell or two or whatever you need to add that external load. If someone wanted to just get started tomorrow and they've almost not thought about their physical health for a long time, where should they start? What's really cool about beginners is that they will see results with far less stimulus than those that are trained. So if you have already been working out, the bar is higher. You do need to apply some of these things that we're talking about if you already have a consistent workout routine. If you don't, you can do far less than that and see results pretty quickly. It's what's called like newbie gains. So this is really exciting for someone that's new. It's really motivating to keep going because you're like, oh, I don't have to smash my body. How many squats should the average person be able to do? I don't think that there's a number that matters. I think what matters is overall muscle growth and strength. And there are a variety of exercises you can do to build muscle growth and strength. I will say I have not, again, this is contentious, but I have not done squats in like over five years. I just don't do that. Squats have never felt good on my back. I'm one of those people that has to lean far forward and I don't enjoy them. And so I don't do them. And I think giving myself that freedom to not do exercises that I just hated was so freeing for me and allowed me to stay so much more consistent and my body didn't hurt. Like I just really struggled with so much chronic pain and that's because I was forcing myself to do exercises that were making it worse. Not to say that squats are automatically going to give you back pain. I'm not saying that. You're just saying for you. For me and I think that everyone can kind of find those things for themselves. Some people hate push-ups. You don't have to do push-ups. You can do chest presses, works the exact same muscle group. What I will say is you don't want to ignore any muscle group. So work all of the muscle groups in your body, but just there's so many different exercises. We have so many different options so you can choose what you like. You can work that muscle group in another way. So many different ways. There's not just one way. And yeah, I might not RDS. I just like there's, it's the worst thing. Like I'll be in pain. Yes. And like it's like I never get lower back pain. But if I do RDS with a heavy enough weight, it's like that's what I'm going to have. Yeah. And then it ruins my workout for the next three days. And there's plenty of other ways to work that muscle group. And ultimately the goal is to build strength and muscle in the hamstrings. And so maybe you can do hamstring curls instead. And that achieves the same goal. Unless I will say like maybe you want to compete in like high rocks or a CrossFit competition. You need to be doing those exercises in order to train your body to be good when you perform those exercises in that competition. But if you're just trying to get fit, trying to be strong, maybe you're trying to look more muscular, more defined or quote unquote toned, whatever the word is. There's no one exercise that's required. I wanted to shift over to losing weight. Yes. Because I'm assuming that's another top goal that everyone comes to you with. She's like, I want to build muscle. I want to lose weight. Yes. What's the biggest thing we're getting wrong about losing weight right now? We are over glorifying exercise as a fat loss tool. It just doesn't move the needle as much as we think. When you do that, when you're focusing on cardio to lose fat, not only do we see from many studies that it produces underwhelming fat loss, but there's an opportunity cost. Maybe you're doing cardio or kind of going to these really hard workout classes or whatever it may be to lose fat, but you're not intentionally strength training. And the opportunity cost is that when you lose weight overall, let's say you're in a calorie deficit and you're losing weight, that weight can come from both fat and muscle unless you are intentionally strength training. So we see that 25% of weight loss can come from muscle if you're not properly strength training. So there's an opportunity cost. So I think that's the biggest thing that people do wrong is they over prioritize cardio and make strength training kind of the cornerstone of your routine. And that way any weight loss is coming from fat, not muscle. So that's a shift we can make. I think so. Yeah, I think that was a big one for me too. I think I was like playing so much sport. Yes. And I was just not losing the fact that I had left to lose. Like it just, I was just, I wasn't, and because you're not building any muscle. Totally. It was, yeah, it didn't make any difference really. And you're very active, which is great. Yeah. There was actually a recent paper that came out that I thought was really illuminating. They studied over 5,000 women aged, I think it was over 60, like 60 to 99 or something, and they followed them for eight years. And they found that the people that lived the longest were the strongest. And this was even up against other women that were very active. So being active is not enough. Having more muscle and strength gives you that extra layer of protection. And I know that people think about like, oh, I'll worry about that when I'm older. It's like, no, what you're doing now is so important because this is all compounding on itself. You can't wait until you're older to build muscle because it does take years. Like you and I are even talking about, like, even if you're doing all the right things, you still have to tinker. You still have to figure out, like, how can this work within my lifestyle, within my goals, within how I want to eat, with what activities I want to do as my cardio. So there is a learning period. It's a skill that you have to develop. So I don't think we should wait until we get to that age to develop our muscle and strength. What's the cutoff point from which you can't build muscle as much as fast anymore? There is no cutoff point. You can build muscle at any age. I will say, as you get older, and I don't know the cutoff age of like when it gets harder, but as you get older, recovery demand gets higher. So you just typically don't recover as well when you're older. And so it does get harder to add a lot of volume of exercise because you're just not recovering from that. So using your 20s and your 30s to build a bank of muscle, you will be so happy with yourself that you did that when you get into your 40s, 50s, beyond. But if you're listening and you're in your 40s, 50s, beyond, it's never too late. What should we be doing for weight loss that we're not doing right now? So I will say again, I'm not formally trained in nutrition, but nutrition is really the primary piece for weight loss and fat loss. What I do, and I have body recompositioned three times now. So I did it once before my first baby, and then I did it in between my pregnancies and then I'm doing it for the third time now after my second. Explain to me how you define body recomposition. Body recomposition is losing fat while building muscle. And those two processes I like to think of as individual processes, but they can happen at the same time. They can happen whether you are new to training or whether you're trained. Like someone like me can still body recomposition. Someone like you that's already trained, you can still body recomposition with the right ingredients. But I like to think about nutrition as your primary tool for fat loss. And what I have found the most success in is being in a very slight calorie deficit. Not in a huge calorie deficit because that's really hard to sustain and you kind of end up yo-yoing. So a very slight, yes, oh my gosh, yeah, same. I used to like eat nothing during the week and then I would just binge on the weekends. That is what we're doing right now. Making up for like the binges ruining the deficit of the entire five, six days. Yes, I heard a metabolic scientist say hunger always wins. Like it's always going to win. So you have to work with your physiology. Our body does not like aggressive energy deficits because our body is always trying to keep us safe. And if it senses an energy deficit, hunger increases, cravings increase. And so it's our body kind of working against itself. But if the calorie deficit is slight enough that your body doesn't feel like it's in an energy scarcity, you can sustain that and see better results. But it's not going to be an overnight thing, but it is something that you can sustain and again, compounds. Yeah, yeah, that's helpful to hear because I find that I can do that sometimes where I can pretty much fast the whole day and then at night you're just like... Totally. Just going crazy and then you're like, wait a minute, what was the point of that? Because sure, I made it till 6pm and had done an extreme fast and now I'm just going crazy all once a week. If someone is going to have a cheat meal, how does it have to work? Talk to me about is that even worth it? Should it be or should it be a general balance throughout the week? What do you recommend when it comes to that? That's interesting. I've never really seen meals as like cheat meals or cheat days or anything like that. I just typically like to apply what we call gentle consistency into my nutrition. So for the most part, 80% of what I eat is highly nutritious within my calorie plan based on my goals, within my protein goals. But 20% of the time I'm going out to eat with my husband and we always get dessert. I typically have a cocktail or two and I plan that in for my week and I do that a couple times every week. I don't necessarily see it. I think it's a mindset shift. I don't see it as the cheat meal. I just see it as part of my lifestyle. And I think that that's what's so hard for so many of us. We're so black and white when it comes to nutrition and I think, I know, why is it so hard? It really is. And I think it just does take time and this is also why tracking your food takes a lot of time. It's annoying. Maybe there's an AI tool now that makes it easier. I don't know. But it can be so helpful so that you can kind of understand like, oh, I can have my favorite food and it not derail me. Or like I am like I'm really under eating here. I no wonder I'm so starving and binging all the time. So getting some clarity around where you're sitting on your on your calories can be really helpful. I had a really good system where I'm pretty much in really extremely healthy probably like six and a half days a week. And then I'm allowing one meal for me myself to eat something that like I'm talking about like burger fries or something like that. Right? Yes. But I'm not sure if some of that burger fries dessert that I'm having is so extreme from a calorie point of view and from a nutrition point of view that it's actually setting me back. And I need to kind of make a shift there. Probably not. I would say probably not. It's probably all in my head. Yeah, it's all in my head. Yeah, I just had a burger and fries last night. Like I truly think I love a burger and fries. Again, I would track it and see like you might find like, oh, this isn't really setting me back as as much as I think it is. But this is another reason to why I think one of the reasons why I've found so much more balance with it over time is because A, I've like tinkered with it for a long time. I think there is a learning phase. But B, I have more muscle mass. And when you have more muscle mass, your glucose metabolism improves. Muscle increases the storage sites for the sugars that we eat to be stored. And so when you have more muscle mass, you store more sugar in muscle rather than being stored as fat. And it can help you balance your cravings because insulin sensitivity also improves. So having more muscle can kind of act as that buffer. I think that's what I'm feeling as well that as I build more and as I get more consistent with that, I think that's going to offset this. It does. I think you're in this critical like learning phase. And this is where a lot of people give up and they're like, it's not working. Keep going because as soon as you get to the other side of that, like I've experienced this, as soon as you get to the other side of that, then it's a lifestyle. And you crave your workouts. And I never thought I would say that even though I've been in the fitness industry. Are you there? Yes, I've got to go with my workouts. Yes. I'm trying to figure out the rest of it. The food is hard. And food is hard because and this is why I always say I defer to the experts because man, there's so much with food. Because it's not just like calories. Totally. It's also so mental. We have so much emotion and tradition and celebration wrapped up in food. So it's really, really difficult. It's such an intertwined part of our life. So it's hard. It just is. Or just being a recovering sugar addict like me. Oh my God. Yes. So I have the biggest sweet tooth in the world. So I could actually avoid everything else. But if it comes to like a good chocolate fudge cake with like ice cream or that kind of thing. Oh, same. Forget it. I get dessert every single time I go out to eat. And I'm just like, that's just never going to change. I just love it. But I guess, yeah, you become so confident. And that's what it is. It's a confidence in your workout and having been there before and recognizing it where you don't overindex or over amplify these things mentally and get caught up in your head about, oh God, I did that and I shouldn't have been there. And that kind of guilt. Yes. So how long did it take you to kind of get rid of some of those emotional things, at least in your personal experience? I know it's you're not a nutrition or dietitian. We're not talking about that. But even for you personally, was there ever a period where you went through where it was like, I still feel guilty or I shame myself because I know that's what I hear from our audience and community too. Where it's like, you're doing well and then you have one bad day and then you guilt and shame yourself and now it's ruined your week. And now for the rest of the month, you don't work out. Or you've been good for 30 days and you had an off week and now you went on vacation and now you're mad at yourself. Like talk to me a bit about that. Oh yeah. I've been through all of the different chapters of my relationship with my food and it started with kind of under eating during the week, eating as little as possible and then binging on the weekends. And then once I shifted to more of like a balanced nutrition, so like eating enough protein, fueling enough, that helped a little bit. And this was only, you know, several years ago, but I still kind of felt you do feel that guilt. Like that doesn't always go away where you're like, I shouldn't have this cocktail or I shouldn't have this dessert or I shouldn't have this pizza pizza. And that food noise, I just don't know that it ever fully goes away. It's gotten so much better, I will say. Like again, last night I had a burger and fries at my hotel and I was like, it's so weird. I was just reflecting. I was like, I don't feel guilty about this at all. Like I'm enjoying this because I know that 80% of the time, like I eat really well to fuel my body. And I have seen time after time that having some meals that I really enjoy sprinkled into my life just does not derail my progress. Now, if you're trying to like prepare for a bikini competition, like all those things do matter, but most of us aren't trying to do that. We just want to feel confident in our bodies and feel like we have less noise around that food. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I wanted to hand you my little friend here. Oh my gosh, you had this hiding back there. I didn't even notice. Oh, that's so good. And I wanted to ask you because I think one of the things you speak, you're like such a proponent of this and I've heard it today, which is like this. You don't have to crush yourself. You don't have to just think that you have to sweat. What parts of our body on a daily basis are we putting stress on that we don't even realize? Feet first. I like to think people neglect feet. We shove our feet in socks and shoes that are too tight. Hi, I'm wearing pointy shoes right now. They're wonderful, by the way. Thank you. It's not good for our feet. And this compounds over decades to the point where we lose neuromuscular connection to our feet. And you should be able to articulate each of your toes. The listeners can try this right now. Can you leave all four toes down and just lift up your big toe? Yes. Okay. And then do the opposite. Big toe down, all four little toes lift up. Yes. Okay. Great. You're already like 90% better than most people. Can you bring your big toe towards midline? So towards the inside of your shoe, like this with your big toe? Yes. If your shoe is big enough. You are. Yeah. If your shoe is big enough, like I'm not, I can't do any of that right now with these pointy shoes. But most people cannot do that even though we have those muscles there to be able to do that. But we've lost the wiring. We've lost the connection because we've stuffed our feet in socks and shoes that are too tight. And so this is why I'm a proponent of working out barefoot or in socks so that you can feel the floor. You can connect to your feet. If you're doing cardio or high intensity stuff where you're jumping, you might want a shoe on to help you absorb some of that force. But lifting weights, I like to lift weights barefoot. I think it is one way for us to improve the neuromuscular connection to our feet. We're also an envelope. We're always doing mobility warm-ups. So we're always doing foot and ankle mobility warm-ups to rewire that connection from our brain to our feet. Because everything from the feet up, your foot is your platform. It will dictate the forces that go through your knee, the forces that go through your hip, the forces that go through your spine, all the way up the chain. So if this is rigid and isn't working how it should be, everything else up the chain isn't going to work properly. Wow. Any others? That was great. I never thought of... Yeah, you didn't think I was going to give you that, did you? Yeah, you didn't even think about your feet. That's why I love that answer is because your feet are your platform and how we feel everything else. But we just don't think about them. We just kind of take them for granted and just go, yeah, thanks for being there. 100%. And if, yeah, we didn't want to take our socks off and see if we could do the foot thing. Exactly. No one wants to see our feet. But I hope everyone's doing that back at home and trying it out. I think that's such a great little test. It is. How can people reconnect with that if they weren't able to do the three things you mentioned? Yeah. What about that? Practice it? Is that just... So I used to give this to my patients all the time as physical therapists because a lot of things do come from the feet. Like a lot of joint dysfunction can originate at the feet. So I would give them these exercises and they would start by being like, I can't even do one single rep. Like I can't coordinate it. And then it's funny because they get it competitive with themselves and they try to do it like all day long and they'll find, they'll come back to me in like a few days and be like, I can do it now. And it's again, because the muscles are there, you just have to rewire that connection from your brain to your muscles. And you just practice those even three exercises. You'll find that if you do it enough, like you will be able to do them after maybe a couple of weeks. And also just warming up your feet before you exercise. Ankle circles, foot circles, spreading out your toes, feeling the floor underneath you. That will lead to such a more productive workout. Your body will get that cue of safety and stability from the ground up. So yeah, feet are so important. I don't get to talk about this that much. So I'm so glad you're asking. I love to like nerd out about this topic. Yeah. I'm going to tell you a little bit about the body. Very the body that you want to pick on for the stress that we don't think about. Yes. I'm going to give you maybe another unexpected one. The eyes. Interesting. So eyes are very important, obviously for so many different reasons. Our five senses give us information about what's going on in the environment around us and tell our nervous system if there is a threat or if we're safe and that can dictate muscle tone. So you're more relaxed if you don't feel like there's a threat. If your nervous system senses there's something around me that might not be safe, your muscles tense up. That can lead to joint dysfunction over time. It can lead to neck issues, headaches. But the eyes take in, I think it's about 10 billion bits per second of information, a ton of information at one given time. And so if you're giving your eyes good information, the rest of your body can follow suit. But a lot of times what we're doing is we're staring at screens that are this far away from us. We're not ever looking out into the distance. We put on glasses and we just get stronger and stronger and stronger prescriptions. But when you start to train your eyes, you might feel like your body moves better because you have better information. Your nervous system has better information. Headaches can go away, neck pain can go away. So eye drills were something that I gave my patients a lot to when they would come to me with neck and shoulder stuff. Well, what you don't even think about again. You don't think about it. Yeah. You're not even thinking about your eye muscles. Totally. You're not thinking about it at all. And it can help with posture as well because if you're trying to look at something and you're cranking your head forward all day long, but if you have better cleaner information through your eyes, it helps with posture as well. You brought a posture. What can we do for better posture? Like I believe the more I've been working out and building muscle, my posture has improved drastically. Yes. And I can't believe before when I used to pretend to have to stand like this. Yes. And now you're like, oh, your body's actually doing that for you naturally. Talk to me about the connection between posture, muscle and just what we can do to get better posture. I would say posture is a function of your environment. So how you are posturing all day long will influence how your body holds itself. But strength training is one of the best things you can do for your posture and getting strong all over. It's not just your back muscles. All of your muscles need to be strong in order for your skeleton to be held in a good posture. So strength training is the number one thing. But I always say posture is complicated. So if you are having issues, go see a provider. And I know that's not a very like nobody wants to hear that, but it's so complex. Like we just talked about it could be originating at your feet. It could be because of originating at your eyes. Could be originating in a place that you don't even realize you're doing. And so just giving you shoulder blade squeezes and telling you that's going to improve your posture. I just don't think that that's very effective because it's so complex. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's been a game changer for me. Yeah. I've been working on my own posture. So my posture was getting weaker just by the fact that I'm constantly holding my phone and looking down and start to feel neck pain and upper shoulder pain. And then working out has definitely just made it easier to have better posture. And at the same time, notice how easy it is to kind of to and fro. Yes. Between having good posture and not because of our phones and our devices. And even for everyone who's just sedentary all day. Yes. And sitting even like this, even when we're doing the podcast, I'm always in my head thinking, gosh, I was sitting for so long. Yeah. Totally. And it's great to have the comment. And I love it. But at the same time, I'm like, gosh, we need to move so much more throughout the day. We need to move. We need to like, and that's why I say like, if you're sitting all day long, get up and try to move at least once an hour because that will be far more beneficial than taking 20 minutes a day to like squeeze your shoulder blades together. What you're doing throughout your day is so much more important. Getting up, moving around, circling your hips, moving your feet, moving your ankles, maybe doing some eye drills, looking out into the distance. All of those things can make huge impacts on your posture. I was going to ask that. Let's formulate that for people. What's a great three minute workout you could do every hour or movement you could do every hour that people could do at work, at their desk, at home, wherever they are. Yes. That would help them stay active the whole day. Some jumping jacks. Simple. Gets your body moving. Gets your eyes up. Makes your arms move out to the side. Your legs move out to the side. We're so forward and backwards. So doing some jumping jacks would be great. Circling your feet, circling your hips, circling your shoulders. Maybe you do that for about a minute. So a minute of jumping jacks, a minute of just like overall mobility around your whole body starting with the feet, moving all the way up. And then maybe a minute of breath work. I think that a minute of breath work might be the most impactful thing that you could do for your whole day. So what I recommend for breath work is hugging your rib cage so that you can feel your ribs move because we want our rib cage to inflate so the diaphragm moves downwards. And that allows the kind of canister of our abdominals to work properly and our breath mechanics to work properly and the lungs expand. So breathe in through your nose and feel your ribs move out into your hands up towards your shoulders and then just breathe out and don't contract anything. Just let it all go and feel how it just passively recoils back to midline and your shoulders relax and your jaw relaxes. And then maybe just take five deep breaths like that, breathe in, feel the rib cage expand, not just side to side but forward, backwards and at the angles and then breathe out. And just doing that can immediately reset your nervous system. We include that in the beginning and end of every single one of our classes and it immediately centers you. Like even just doing that, I just felt like, oh, just this sense of calm. It's like giving yourself a hug too. Yeah, it is. I know. Oh, that's great. I'm going to use that. I've never heard that before. What's that technique called? Diaphragmatic breathing. Oh, that is just diaphragmatic breathing. You're just holding yourself. But the cue of your hands helps you know what should be moving. So the rib cage moving and inflating and because a lot of people breathe either with their shoulders or with their belly. We've been taught to breathe with our belly. It's actually the rib cage that should be expanding as you inhale. Oh, got it. That's neat. Yeah, I like that practice. Yeah, because I've held my palm on my stomach before. So really when you're doing my diaphragm, you're saying you're going to feel that more through the rib cage. Yes. And you will find that one side might not move the same way as the other side. And so really trying to breathe into all sides. Like I can't, I struggle with the left side. So I really try to breathe into my left side. And I find when I focus on that, like my nervous system completely calms. Like it is very, very powerful. Wow. Going to try that out. I love it. What's the, is there a different recommendation that you have for people in their twenties thirties, forties and fifties in terms of what their workouts should look like? No, I really don't. And I think that the fitness industry loves to overcomplicate this. And I think specifically the group of people that are being told that they need to do something different is people in peri and postmenopause. And we just see that these women can train similarly. Again, you're training close to failure. From four reps all the way up to 30 reps, you are targeting muscles one to two times per week, two-ish times if you can, you're giving your body enough recovery. We see that even in peri and postmenopausal women, that works so well. You can do that whether you are 20, 30, 40 and beyond, and it will continue to be effective, which is just so empowering because I just, I think when we overcomplicate things, we just don't say consistent. Yeah. And everything else that you've said as well, which is like leading into activities that you enjoy doing that work for you, finding a schedule that works for you. I know you've answered this in different ways. I wanted to kind of find one place to have the answer. If you could help design someone's ideal workout schedule week, what would it look like? If you follow these four things, I can pretty much guarantee you will see muscle growth. So reps, R-E-P-S, each letter stands for a different principle of building muscle. You can forget everything else you know about fitness and just focus on these four things. The R stands for repetitions, like we said, training two failure or one to three reps, shy of failure in every set of every exercise. Rep ranges can be anywhere from four reps all the way up to 30 reps or anywhere in between. You can change it up based on your preference, based on the exercise, based on the day. Exercise selection is number two. That's the E. Two important things with exercise selection. I think about choosing one muscle group to work at a time, not trying to combine upper and lower body like we talked about. Number two, choosing exercises that feel good in your body and that you enjoy so that you can reliably take that muscle group close to failure. There's no one required exercise that everyone has to do. P is protein, eating 0.75 to one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And S is structure. So working each muscle group two times per week on non-consecutive days, splitting those workouts into three to five workouts per week. So if you follow those things, you can kind of play within those guidelines to find what allows you to stay the most consistent. But you can pretty reliably, I can pretty reliably tell you that you will see results. I will say it takes time. People think that if they've been working out for a month, they should miraculously see their body change. Muscle growth takes about eight to 12 weeks. So make sure that you're not giving up before you're seeing the results. So make sure that you're consistent for at least 12 weeks before you change things up. Yeah, I think that patients by a certain point and the clarity of just knowing, because I think you watch everyone on social media and I was like, this is what I did in 30 days. And you're like, wait, why can't I do that in 30 days? I know. And it's a shame because yes, you can lose fat in a short amount of time, but like, are you going to be able to sustain that? So many people do these fitness challenges and then they just, they burn out and then they and back up at square one. And they maybe even lost the muscle while they did it. If they were in an aggressive calorie deficit or doing a lot of cardio, and not only are they back at square one, but they're worse than when they started. So yeah, being it for the long haul, we've got the rest of our lives to work out. Yeah. What's the biggest workout myth you've seen on social media? You would think that this would die because we have so much information that it's not true, but spot treating fat. So trying to do crunches or doing a workout with the intention that it will make you toned up or quote unquote, snatch. That's the term that internet loves right now in a certain area. So like for your bat wings, this exercise will help get rid of your bat wings. This exercise will help flatten your lower belly pooch. Those are all things that I see. And we just find that exercise cannot spot treat fat. You can't preferentially choose where you lose fat. Fat loss happens systemically across your whole body and your body chooses where it mobilizes fat first. You can't really control that unfortunately. So I think that this causes people to overwork certain muscle groups in their body and be frustrated when they're not seeing the results that they were promised. Yeah. That's that's good to know. I think that's that. Everyone knows that, but you're hoping someone's gonna totally, you know, it's like, totally. Yeah. It's like a painful truth. I love it. Shannon, is there anything that I haven't asked you today that you wish I did ask you? I don't think so. My hope is that I don't want anyone to listen to this and feel like they're doing it wrong or defensive. I just hope that people listen to this episode and take away that there's a way to get strong, get fit. Yes, see the aesthetic goals that you're after, but also be nicer to yourself along the way. I've been there. I know what it feels like to smash your body. And my hope is that this just gives people the empowerment and the education to do that. So I hope it helps people. What was the hardest point in your personal health journey that you've experienced? I think my chronic pain from overuse, thinking that it was my body that was the problem when really it was my workout that was the problem. It was that I was doing at least an hour of exercise every day, hard exercise, not taking recovery days, feeling guilty for taking recovery days. Like my Saturday and Sunday, if I didn't work out, I'd be like, ah, I should have done that. I feel so bad being glued to my fitness watch. I remember if I didn't burn enough calories in my workout, I would literally do jumping jacks in my apartment at the end of the day to try to hit that calorie goal. And now I don't even track any of that. And I see so much better results. And I just want to scream this from the rooftops because it truly is such a mental and physical transformation, but you just have to give it enough time and give your body the right stimulus. And tell me about the platform, Evlo that you've built, because people can find these programs and plans on there, right? Yes. Yes. So Evlo is my fitness platform. Every class, all follow along classes. So if you like to follow a class, this is great because we are training with you. We are doing the workout with you. We're showing you what it looks like and feels like to get close to failure. We are giving you all the options you have for certain exercise. If you don't like an exercise, you can see all the options right there. We structure the week for you so you know you're getting enough volume and frequency. The workouts are only 35 minutes and each class is taught by a doctor of physical therapy. So we're really helping you understand your body because we believe education is so important. So you can work out with us three, four or five times per week depending on your schedule. It's all effective. All works great. Evlofitness.com. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. It's great that there's a destination for people to actually find all of this. I think you've given so much insight today and so much education and busted so many myths for us, but I'm glad that people can actually go to the platform to find a plan and commit to a plan. And I'd love to see so many people who've been listening and watching today, go and build a new 30-day habit and lock in and find a consistent schedule that they love there as well. I hope so too. Could I give a code to your listeners? Okay. They can use On Purpose for six weeks free. I love that. So they can really, really get it. And then if you do those six weeks, you're halfway there to seeing visible muscle growth. So. Okay. Use the code On Purpose. On Purpose for six weeks free at evlofitness.com. Six weeks free. That's awesome. Okay. Thank you so much. Yay. That's so kind. That's incredible. Yeah. I hope everyone goes and use that. You got six weeks of free workouts. Yes. That's unbelievable. That's so much help and support. Thank you so much. Oh, good. Of course. Of course. That's huge. Shannon, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. Oh gosh. I'm going to struggle with that. I'll do my best. I often break the rules because I'm so intrigued. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do my best. Okay. So Dr. Shannon Richie, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Take personal responsibility for any change that you want to see in your life. That's a great answer. We haven't heard that before. I love that. Oh, good. Great answer. I couldn't agree with you more. I think personal accountability, agency. Yes. It builds confidence. It builds self-esteem. Like all of the self-love, self-belief stuff we talk about, it only comes when you take accountability. It does. Change you want to see in your life. It's a great answer. It's up to you. Nobody else is going to come save you. It's up to you. It's so empowering. Great answer. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? No pain, no gain. Yeah. I think it comes back to fitness. I mean that just, yeah. No pain, no gain was really so not effective for me in so many ways. Question number three, what's a fitness habit or workout that you wish you started earlier? I wish I would have built muscle at the age of 19 or 20. Because it would have been easier to hold on to? Is that how it works? Yes. It compounds. It gets easier the more you do it. And the beauty about muscle is that if you were to ever lose it, it comes back quicker the second time you build it. So investing in it that first time is the hardest, but it will pay you back over and over and over. Well, incredible. Question number four, something that you used to value that you don't value anymore when it comes to your health? My fitness watch. I used to obsess about burning calories. And I just don't do that anymore because I just know it's not very effective and reliable. And so I don't use that as a way to measure my workouts anymore. Do you think it's important for a certain period of time? Is it valuable for people to do that? Or and how should they use it if they are using data? What should we count actually? It's probably a broader question you can answer in more than one sentence. It's like, what should people count? What should people measure when it comes to weight loss, fat loss, muscle gain? What should we be tracking? I think food and strength training are obviously the number one things. We also want to stay overall active. We see from data that around 7,500 steps per day is associated with positive health outcomes. So I do have an aura ring and I will sometimes, I just like to track like different seasons of my life. I've had it for like three years and I just like to look back and see like, oh, when I was in a super stressful time in my life, I wasn't very active. How can I maybe change something about my day to day to stay more active? Or what lifestyle habits can I adjust during a stressful period of my life? So I like to use trackers to just kind of give you an overall activity, a picture of your activity rather than obsessing about hitting a certain number. Because what we see is, if you're active overall, like doing a ton more, is it necessarily going to give you a ton more gain? If that makes sense. Yeah, and that's just how we think about everything. I know. I know. You do see diminishing returns with exercise. And this is not me saying, don't be as active as possible. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying a lot of people think that it has to be all or nothing. And so they end up doing nothing. Amazing. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Maybe this is me just being an optimist, but giving people the benefit of the doubt, not fitness related at all. I just find that we're all trying to do our best. And you don't know what somebody is going through. And so if you have a negative interaction, trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if they had bad intentions, it feels better for you to give them the benefit of the doubt. Oh, maybe they're going through, maybe they had a death in the family, or maybe they're going through something that I don't, I can't see or know. So that's what I really do try to do. And it's hard. It's not that I'm perfect at it, but I wish that more people did that too. Yeah, I can agree more. Dr. Shannon Richam, so grateful that we got to spend this time together. I feel like I learned so much. I learned. Our workouts are never going to look the same. I know that everyone in my audience will have gained such a wealth of insight, whether it's about building muscle, weight loss, losing fat, or even learning about our precious feet, and our precious eyes that we undervalue and underestimate. I hope that our audience will go and connect with you on the Evlo platform and find more workouts and schedules that they can live by and follow. And I hope we get to see you again here on the show. I would love to be back anytime. Yeah, that was fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll love my conversation with four-time Grand Slam champion, Irina Sabalenka, where she reflects on her latest victory and the mental battles that almost broke her along the way. For me, success is the discipline that you put in. Be there every morning, every practice, doesn't matter how you feel, doesn't matter if you want it. This Easter, switch your phone from home mode an unexpected item in the bagging area to unlimited data in Naples mode. So you can find the most traditional tutorial in town and translate extra pineapple, please. Get all the data you need abroad with no dodgy Wi-Fi, no roaming charges, and no nasty bills with an unlimited eSIM from AeroLo. Visit AeroLo.com to switch on holiday mode next time you travel. Check your device compatibility. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.