Cracking the Cheesecake Code, featuring Carla Hall

The image of a cheese cake, a perfectly baked cheesecake, gave you, sent you back to the water bed? No wonder you hate cheesecake. Oh, my God. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Thingsbakers Now. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And I'm Jessica Badalana, King Arthur's staff editor, and we are back today with season three. This is our kickoff. The enhanced season. The enhanced season. We have added a video component. Yes, and we are on Substack Now, so please follow us there at KingArthurBaking.com. That means you can follow us on Substack. We're launching a newsletter to accompany the podcast. Yeah. And the video means you can watch us on YouTube and Spotify, and you can listen everywhere. Everywhere. I think it's just nice because it's another way for us to engage with our listeners, our viewers. I feel like we've gotten pro, you know, with this nice set. And for all the people wondering, how would it be? What would it be like if Jessica and David were in the same room? Yeah. You know? For all the people who are wondering, how old are they? Yeah. You know what? Now they will know. Yeah, now, yeah. But let's move on. Today we're talking about something else. We are. We're talking about something almost as old as us. No, we're talking about something older than us, which is cheesecake, one of America's very favorite desserts. We're starting with what I consider to be a polarizing topic. Only because you know that I have feelings, a lot of feelings about cheesecake, which is the subject of today's episode. And you also know that most of my feelings are negative. Yeah, I do know that. I support you, but I'm here to offer a counterpoint for those listeners and viewers now. Welcome, because I like cheesecake. I like it. I don't love it. I like it. I would say we're in the minority though, because people love cheesecake. I was reporting a story about Wisconsin once, a travel story, and I was going to all these restaurants, you know, like Artista Hot Knew restaurants, talking to pastry chefs, and they all told me that, like, we love working in Wisconsin, we love, you know, the Wisconsin people, but they will not let us take a cheesecake off the menu. Like, they revolt. They revolt. That doesn't surprise me. I mean, in a cheese state, like we are in now, Vermont. But I think it's all 50 states. Oh, yeah. People love it. You know, for a while, like every dessert menu, like even without seeing the dessert menu in a certain period of time, you could be like, I know it's on that dessert menu. Like it's an apple tart. It's a lava cake. It's a cheesecake. Like they, there's sort of a lineup. And then ice cream. Ice cream. Yeah. And I feel like it's hanging on. But you were telling me, I mean, there was a period of time that you committed to a cheesecake. I did. Yes, right. And then when I was just a baby, 22 years old, I was living in a studio apartment by myself in Fort Green, Brooklyn, which was not the Fort Green, Brooklyn of today. It was kind of a sleepy neighborhood then. But there was one restaurant, not just one, but there was one restaurant with huge, blinky lights, neon signs, which was of course, Junior's, which is a very famous restaurant. And it was right around the corner from my apartment. And it beckoned me with that neon sign. And of course, Junior's is famous for its cheesecake. You know, it's an iconic cheesecake spot. It has a sponge cake in the bottom instead of a graham cracker crust. It's a classic New York style cheesecake. And I just thought it was, you know what? My dad used to say when he was in... Tickets. I thought it was tickets. That's what that means. I mean, it's like... Great. Oh, I love that. I thought it was amazing. And I actually think, and here's where I'm just going to be negative again, like that type of cheesecake that you're describing is actually my least favorite. So the New York cheesecake that you're describing, this one is unusual because of the sponge cake base, but it's like very dense, almost fudgy, very tall, not that sweet actually. And it's extremely cheesy. And it's not my favorite style, but you know, cakes made with cheese. I think Junior's has perhaps claimed in the past to be the inventor of the cheesecake. I don't know. I mean, I think we've in our research we've seen that's not true. Yeah. I mean, because cakes, cheesecakes are at least cakes made with cheese, like date. I mean, it's like Roman Empire stuff. Like as long as there's been cheese, people have been making cheesecake. Yeah. You know, in Italy, they make cheesecake with ricotta. You know, in Germany, they make it with like cottage cheese. So hot right now. Orc. Right. Orc. That is, I mean, in the trajectory of cheesecake, kind of a modern invention because, you know, cream cheese, as we know it, like Philadelphia style stabilized cream cheese was not invented until I think the 1870s. 1872 we have here and which is crazy because, you know, we think of it as a forever thing. Like what were people? Yeah, what were people? What were people even putting on their bagels before 1920? Like because bagels are, well, we have another episode all about bagels, but bagels, of course, also were invented before 1920. So like what was happening? Buttered bagels? Anyway, I actually do love just the butter. Me too. But that's for a different episode. Different episode. But you can see the natural progression from cheesecakes that were made with ricotta, quark, to those that were made with cream cheese and what happened. So European, some European bakers came to the States, especially to New York, German bakers. A lot of German Jewish bakers were bringing this style of cheesecake over and then cream cheese was invented and then game on. Bang bang bang. Incorporating the cake and then the New York style cheesecake was invented. So I do think that, of course, New York did not invent the cheesecake, but New York did invent New York style cheesecake, meaning they invented the cheesecake made with cream cheese. Right. I mean, that's a hallmark, right? I think of a hallmark of a New York cheesecake, obviously cream cheese, although, I mean, yes, in restaurants in New York, you can get ricotta cheese, whatever. But I think of that as cream cheese base. But I think about, you know, before I did the research about cheesecake, I think of it as having a graham cracker crust. And I'm glad that it has a graham cracker crust because honestly, that's really like that sort of layer of like semi-soggy, semi-crunchy. You're selling it. Graham cracker base is actually the part of cheesecake I like the most. The part of New York cheesecake I like the most. So you're like the kid who like just scrapes off the frosting and eats only the frosting, but in this case, you're like scraping off all the cheesecake and just eating the graham cracker crust? Yeah. That's an easier way to eat graham cracker crust. I mean, unless it's a cheesecake that this is going to shock you, this is going to shock the viewers, listeners. I have a very soft spot for that like kind of gross, gloopy canned cherry pie. Like the neon red that kind of like stains the corner of your mouth when you eat it. So if it has like cherry pie filling on top and it has a graham cracker crust, then I'll like the cheesecake. Once I remove the cheesecake part. Yeah. You know? I mean, that's a great segue into like the modern state of particularly in New York style cheesecakes because it's pretty rare that you see someone eating one that's just like the plain vanilla specced slice of cheesecake now. They all, they have fruit toppings. They're marble. Yeah. There's Oreos in them. I mean, they have really gone wild. Well, because it's sort of a blank canvas, right? I mean, that's what the thing is. Like you can add almost any flavor to a cheesecake and it's like not going to be offensive and people do it. Yeah. I mean, I've seen it. Yeah. But the other thing that I want to say about New York cheesecakes, so a lot of cheesecakes are baked in water baths, but that's not true of all New York style cheesecakes. A lot of them are just put into the pan and then thrown into a hot oven. So they puff pretty dramatically. They puff pretty dramatically. They get brown on top and then they kind of sink. So it has that like brown, almost skin like crust to it, which is kind of a distinctive feature of a New York cheesecake. And of course, a water bath is meant to prevent exactly that from happening. The water bath, for those viewers who don't know, so when you put a cake or any other baked goods in a pan of water and slide it into the oven, water of course can't get above 212 degrees. So it keeps the sides and the bottom of the baked good at that temperature or lower. So it's regulated, even if you're oven that 400 degrees, the sides and the bottom are kept at a lower temperature. Well, and it makes sense because cheesecake is essentially custard. It's cheese and sugar and eggs and egg yolks. And so you want to cook it gently because the risk is that if you're cooking at too high of a heat for too long of a temperature without that insulation, it's going to curdle. And that's gross. I'm with you with that. That is gross. That is not what you want. I mean, and we have recipes, like a lot of recipes for cheesecake on our site because people request them and we have like pumpkin cheesecakes. We've got like, Irish cream cheesecake, I think, cannoli cheesecake. We have explored a lot of cheesecake possibilities. And today's guest is Carla Hall, who is like no stranger to the cheesecake. She's developed lots of cheesecake recipes over the course of her career. You know, lots of variations. And she had some interesting thoughts about like how to tweak sort of the base recipe. That's exciting. Yeah, it's great. I love Carla. She's so sweet and she's so enthusiastic. Is she more enthusiastic than you about the cheesecake? Well, she's more enthusiastic than I am. I'll say that. Okay. I mean, that's not hard to do. But you know, Carla, of course, she spent seven seasons as the host of the chew. She's written a bunch of cookbooks. She has a new cookbook coming out this fall called Carla Bakes. And she's also a big fan of King Arthur. So and not a big fan of cheesecake spoiler. So I want you to hear the conversation between the two of us. All right. I'll listen. Let's hear this conversation between two people who do not like cheesecake. All right. So you were co-host of the chew, which is a sort of talk show cooking show for seven seasons. And my co-host, David Tumarkin, said that at one point he talked to you about all of the recipes that you developed during the run of that show. And it was some insane number. Like I bet collectively it was 5,000. For myself individually, it may have been 3,000. I mean, I don't know. Because you divide that by five people. And we had multiple dishes on each episode, like at least three. And we did 1,300 episodes. 1,300 episodes. Oh my God. That sounds tiring. I got... Oh, I'm like, whoa. Were there... So, you know, the thing about cheesecake is that it's insanely popular. Yes. Like people love cheesecake. The secret's going to come out at some point in this episode that cheesecake is actually not my top dessert. It is not mine either. It's not. It is not. However, my husband loves cheesecake. My wife loves cheesecake. So I think that as somebody who cooks, when you know people who love a thing, it doesn't matter if you like it or not. You want to make it good for them. So I imagine in the 3,000 recipes that you did for the chew, and then you have cookbooks, you have your magazine, you've probably developed a cheesecake or two in your time. You know, or 10. Yes. Currents. Do you have a favorite cheesecake that you've made or like a... Well, I think... I have had duds. And I think it's when you are rushing and you're whipping and it's too much air. Well, let's talk about that whipping thing because I think that's interesting. You know, you're starting with a cream cheese based cheesecake. Right. So you've got your softened cream cheese in there and you're beating it, but there is a risk of over beating. See, I do not beat now. I use the paddle. I do not use the balloon. So I'm thinking about doing this in a KitchenAid, right? All of my ingredients are at room temperature and I use a paddle because a paddle is going to put in less air. And sometimes when you get a lot of air, that's when you get cracks because you're like, oh, it has to be smooth and you're thinking more soft than cheesecake. You know what I mean? Uh-huh. I think the cracking is a real pain point for people. So let's talk about that. So over whipping, getting too much air in it causes your cheesecake to rise in the oven and then... I mean, collapse is a strong word, but it settles, right? It settles because now you have pockets of air. And so basically a cheesecake is a custard, right? It's a custard. So you can make a custard you think gentle or it can crack if it's over baked. Do you bake yours in a water bath? I do. 100%. That speaks to the custard element of it too because you've got your cheese, you have your egg yolks. And so I think gentleness is sort of the order of the day as far as like you get that nice sort of even cooking heat. It's gentler than just throwing the oven hoping for the best. Exactly. And then the cooling time. There's the mixing, the baking, there's the cooling. Yeah. So do you keep it in the water bath or do you take it out of the water bath right away? So I leave my cheesecake in the oven. I crack the door with a wooden spoon. I bring it down in there. And then once I take it out of the oven, I do take it out of the water bath. Okay. But by then the water bath is like room temperature. And then you would chill it. Yes. For at least six hours. Now, and what do you do for the crust? I do, graham cracker. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I have some ginger snaps. I have some shortbread. So I'll mix it up. I always want to do the sour cream on top, which he really does not like. Okay. So this is a regional variation, right? So it's a graham cracker crust, dense cream cheese custard, and then a layer of very lightly sweetened sour cream across the top. I think the sour cream breaks up the cream cheese. I'm just saying. The dense cream cheese needs is a little more dairy. Right. But I want that tang so that you're breaking up the richness of the cream cheese. I think, you know, we're talking about sweet cheesecakes. You know, savory cheesecakes are a thing. Oh, they are a thing. Are they a good thing? All of these baking shows on, it was holiday baking and somebody had done a savory cheesecake. Now, we loved it. I don't know if it's because it was the savory in the midst of all of the sugar. I am not a fan of blue cheese, but blue cheese with friends and cream cheese, it was gorgeous. It was with candied walnuts and there was honey and there was also fig. I mean, so it was. That sounds delicious to me. And I think it could sort of, you know, how in the French tradition, it's like cheese followed by dessert, cheese as dessert. Like I could see that being a very elegant, you know, sort of conclusion. And in some ways, like that makes more sense to me than traditional cheesecake, I guess. So, you know, this episode where you have all of these cheesecakes to judge, like what were the judges sort of looking for? Like what's a perfect cheesecake? I think, first of all, balance. Sweet, savory, salty, a little bit of bitter. There's a balance in flavor. There's also balance in texture. And I think that's where the crust comes in, where you really want to have the balance between the right amount of butter and a little bit of sweetness in that crust. When we are doing those shows, it's all about something looking really good. They have the opportunity to not just have a plain cheesecake with fruit on top. So now you're getting into, you get to add texture, you get to add more flavor. That's when you balance it with whatever you put on top of the cheesecake. You can hide your shame if you're cheesecakes. You can hide your shame. If it's a spider crack, great. If it is a long crack in the middle, if it didn't bake through. How do you know when your cheesecake is properly baked? What are you looking for, jiggle-wise or not jiggle-wise? I'm thinking about, let's say, an eight-inch nine-inch cheesecake. So those first three inches are set. That middle section is a little jiggly like jello. So the three inches from the sides of the pan should look that. Coming in. And then that little disc in the middle, that should still be jiggly. OK. And that's when you turn your oven off. Yeah. You let it cool. And unlike other cake, nowhere sometimes you say it'll pull away from the sides or dip a toothpick in and test. I can't do that. Well, if you put a toothpick in your cheesecake and you pull it out and it is dry, it's going to be chalky. Yeah, a chalky cheesecake is a truly sad thing. It's a sad thing. And there are actually quite a lot of them out there. I feel like I've eaten. And maybe that's why I turned against cheesecake. What I was going to ask you about next is you have a cookbook coming out, your first baking book, Carla Bakes. It's going to be out this September. Give us a preview of coming attractions. Like talk to me about this book, what you learned in the process of writing a baking book. Because, you know, it's hard. It's been making a cookbook. Baking is hard. And I really thought this one was going to take me down. And I don't have a single cheesecake in that bag. I know what what what. It's like, you know, care about your husband at all. For me, baking is like casual Friday. I love that I've done all these shows, but I really I enjoy sweets. It is sweet and savory. It is about making something. I will give you a recipe and list how you can change it. So there's a little choose your own adventure element. Exactly. What took so long. And I'm going to, is I'm not a baking book. Every time I was doing a recipe, I would and I'm doing metric as well as cups and everything. Good for you. I'd love to hear that. I want the book to come with a freaking scale. I spent the time, y'all, to do this for you. I am with you. Because my baking with a scale is so important. We'll know that when we bake your recipes using your measurements, it's going to turn out the way that you intended. It's about ratios. I'm so glad that you said that because here at King Arthur, we are big boosters for the scale as the one true way. The one true way. And I tell you, I just want to gush a little bit on the big King A. Because when I give my recipes, especially my biscuits, use King Arthur flour. I love to hear that. I do. I love. I used to all purpose. I was doing biscuits once with a Southern boy and I brought my ingredients. He had a flour that was bleaching. And I was like, and I brought mine. He said, oh, yeah, I have the, I have the WL. And I'm like, OK. I'm like, well, I brought my flour. And so we did a side by side and no shame, no gain. But the nuttiness, the way the biscuits brown, the way they fluff up, he was like, oh, well, mine didn't brown. I said, that's because you use that one. Well, mine don't taste nutty. Well, I mean, that's because you said it. We didn't even pay you to say this. And I think we all feel proud of making a product that the bakers that we love and admire like use and, you know, support. Well, Carla, I'm so glad that you're part of the King Arthur family. And it's just a treat to talk. Thank you for hanging out with us. Thank you. I'm Shilpa Oskowicz. And I'm Jesse Sepcek. And we're the hosts of the Bon Appétit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appétit's community of confident, curious bakers. Jesse and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive. And we love to talk about all the hows and why's and what didn't work that come with it. Every month we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. So consider this your official invitation. Come join the BA Bake Club. New episodes on the first Tuesday of every month wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking. This episode is brought to you by King Arthur Stores. We're in Vermont now, of course, that's home to our flagship store. But did you know, Jessica? Pop quiz. That we have several pop up stores. One in Fairfax, Virginia or Denver, Colorado. Or of course, come right here where we are. In Norwich, Vermont. And while you're here, take a baking class. Find out about all of our stores at KingArthurBaking.com. Slash. Visit. It's time for our next segment. Ask the bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to KingArthurBaking.com. Slash podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's KingArthurBaking.com. Slash podcast. And of course, if you have a question that you simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our bakers hotline via phone, email or online chat. Just go to KingArthurBaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's KingArthurBaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-B-A-K-E. That's 371-2253-2253 as in bake. Awesome. Let's hear our questions. So. Hi, this is Danielle. And this is Russell. And we are based in Brooklyn, New York. We just made the pumpkin basque cheesecake. I was very inspired by your fall baking episode. So thank you for that. I loved that for this recipe. We just had to throw all the ingredients into the food processor and let the food processor do the magic. Are there any other recipes like cheesecake recipes, specifically where that is how you do it? Russell and I have were very into making cheesecakes. So I would love to experiment there. And and why is it called a basque cheesecake? Like, what's the history there that I would love to learn a little bit more about that? And I guess final question. We normally do a water bath with our cheesecake. I noticed in this recipe, it didn't specify to do a water bath. So we did not do the water bath. But would that have made a difference? Yeah, would that have made a difference? All right, that's all for now. But thank you for the podcast. Big fan of King Arthur over here. Bye. Bye. Those people have only been dating for six months. You don't get that kind of like energy that like that, like, oh, we are so happy to love each other. Like, I mean, yeah, I like how they're like, that's all for now. Like, they're going to be calling back soon. I hope they do. Well, so there were a few things here in this question. And one of them, I mean, I too like a recipe where you can throw everything into the food processor. But I think it is worth noting that, you know, some cheesecake recipes have you combining everything in the mixer and, you know, some have you combining it in the food processor. And like I talked about with Carla, like the risk of doing it in a mixer is that you introduce a lot of air to the mixture. And then, you know, if you add a lot of air, it increases the probability, possibility of cracking. Right. So by mixing things in a food processor, like you're not incorporating as much air as you would in a mixer. So that's, you know, part of the reason that that is the technique that we use in the bass cheesecake. Um, and, you know, the reason it doesn't use a water bath is because the like the whole sort of point of a bass cheesecake, which was invented, I mean, it's funny because like most baked goods, it's like, is there a date of invention? Probably not. But bass cheesecake, there's pretty good intel that was actually invented in a restaurant in San Sebastian, Spain in 1988. So kind of recently, Younger than I am. It's, it's just, it's younger than both of us. I hate things that are younger than me. I know it's weird. Um, that's fascinating because, you know, I just assumed it was something that had been around for right. 200, 200 years or longer. And I actually, I don't know, maybe, I was going to say five years, but no, I've been, no, it's, it was longer than five years ago. I was in San Sebastian. And even though like I am not the biggest cheesecake lover, like I felt like I had to make a pilgrimage to this restaurant, La Vigna, where all they make is bass cheesecake. And I will say that San Sebastian, everything they say about it and the food there is true. Like the food is truly like pretty remarkable and special. Um, so did you, even you like the bass? I did like it. And it's very deeply caramelized. I mean, when you get it right, bass cheesecake is incredible. It has the, the sort of dual texture. And I really love that burnt sugar flavor. And it's not terribly sweet, but you know, those sugars on the outside caramelize and you wouldn't get that in a water bath. You don't want that in like some styles of cheesecake. The water bath is there to prevent that from happening. Exactly. But the whole like the whole thing about the bass cheesecake is that it's got this like caramelized crust. So that's why it just gets thrown. I mean, it truly is one of the easiest and hardest to mess up recipes because you combine everything together in a food processor, whizz it up, dump it in, no crust to a bass cheesecake. And then you just blast in the oven. So it's very user friendly. Except I would say you have to nail the, you have to nail the bake. You have to get it out. Exactly. You do have to nail. I mean, and that is if there is a pain point of cheesecake, that is it. Right. Like, and you know, Carla mentioned a good way to tell, like you want, you know, the like two, I think she said three inches from the outer edge of your pan should be like set, you know, when you shake it, but the middle should still be like jiggly. You know, I was just, that was hard for you to say. Well, because I was just thinking about, I was just going down a mental rabbit hole of remembering that one of my first boyfriends had a water bed. Oh, no. Yes. I should have broken up with him then and there. But I did eventually. Too long. Water bed. I know water beds are gross, but you do want to, the image of a cheesecake, a perfectly baked cheesecake, gave you, sent you back to the water bed. No wonder you hate cheesecake. Oh my God. Now we're getting to the root of this. I understand now. And then I was thinking like water beds like are not a thing anymore. Like, I think there are. I think, I mean, listeners call in. I mean, I'm sure. It's going to give a water bed is like the frame of reference for like how jiggly. And then I was like, do people know? Like, they know. They know. I like this. So two to three inches solid and then the middle water bed, water bed. And I think that feels stressful to people because you're like, it's still raw on the inside, but you have to remember like that carryover cooking. And we haven't really talked about carryover cooking here, but like, you know, you take something hot out of the oven. It doesn't like immediately cool and stop baking. Like it's going to gradually decrease in temperature. Yeah. And you know, Karla was saying she cools hers in her water bath in the oven. So like that's a very slow. Okay. Yeah. Which a prevents cracking, but also like if you've gotten it to set all the way through and then it's sitting in like a slowly cooling oven, like you are definitely going to over bake it and then over bake cheesecake. As we said, it can be like very unpleasantly grainy. Yeah. The curds form, right? I mean, it's like, it's not, it's not pleasant. And I think it's particularly unpleasant with a bass cheesecake because the whole point of that bass cheesecake is to have, like you said, that dual texture caramelized on the outside, you know, it's baked firm-ish, but it inside should be so silky. Yeah. Custard-y. Custard-y. I mean, it should just be, and when you nail it, it's ethereal, I think. So I don't know. Did we answer their questions? I think so. I mean, long may they bake cheesecakes together. Yeah. Call us back with more questions. Yeah. I love this couple. I hope they are, I hope they're still together and still baking cheesecakes together. Let's go to our next question. Hi, all. I'm curious on how I can make a lower sugar graham cracker crust for a cheesecake. I find that they're often too sweet. And when I cut down on the sugar content, the crust can get pretty crumbly. Thanks for your help. Yeah. All right. We get a lot of questions like this at King Arthur. How can I take the sugar out of this? Can I cut the sugar down? If you peruse the reviews of any of our baker, you will probably find someone in there who has claimed to have the sugar, you know, and that it worked. Yeah. And did it work? Yeah. I mean, you could, you can do this as the caller said. You can take the sugar down, but you're going to end up with a different product. It's going to be more crumbly. And the reason why the graham cracker crust is going to be more crumbly is because the sugar isn't there to melt and bind it together. Right. I mean, that's the thing people sort of forget or don't know that sugar is like, it has a functional role. It's not just for sweetness. Right. And you can't just, you know, you can't just mess around with those ratios and expect that you're going to get the same thing. You may still get something edible, but it's not going to be the same thing. Yeah. So your first option is, yeah, you can cut the sugar and you'll have a different thing. You'll have a crumbly crust. Sounds like this caller doesn't want that. So your other option, I would say, is if you want to reduce the sugar in the crust, find something that has less sugar than a graham cracker, which is going to be a little tough because graham crackers aren't particularly sweet, but you could go with a, with a like a salty cracker. You could go with, I don't know why this is coming to mind, but you could go with oyster crackers. You could go with. I would say rinse. Yeah, but yeah, rinse with the gum. But I just went to, I don't know why I went to oyster crackers, but you could, you know, any, any cracker, any, any cookie will do. So if you want to find a lower sugar or less sweet. Or like a digestive biscuit, you know, like those would be good. And sometimes I think it's not necessarily about like the amount of sugar as noted on the package as it is your perception of sweetness too. Right. Like, you know, you may perceive that like a ginger snap crust tastes less sweet to you. Totally. Just because it's got more going on. Right. Like in a graham cracker crust, you know, there's not a ton happening. Like graham crackers are pretty base. Spice molasses, sweetness. Yeah. But yeah, that's a great idea. Tinker with your crust in other ways instead of taking the sugar out. And you also had another very simple idea. No crust. No crust. Just leave, I mean, go basket style. Or, you know, I think the other option would be like, okay, if you're acknowledging that you like the flavor, but not the texture of a lower sugar, you know, graham cracker crust, you could always bake the crust on its own and serve it as like a crumble on top. Like I know that's a different. You control the amount of, you know, graham cracker crumble that you put on. Counting on it to like act as a true crust, you know, and that, that could be good. You know, you get the texture. I mean, as I said, I like the layer where like the cream cheese meets the graham cracker and it gets like a little soggy. But, you know, if that's not what you're after, then you could do like some sort of other streusel situation on top that could be lower sugar because you're not then relying on the sugar as the glue. Yeah. I, and so you're making a great point. Cheesecakes do not need a crust. And I think what you're also making a point about is that really the purpose of, especially graham cracker crust is as much about flavor as it is about texture because you, you do want like a textural component to offset the texture of the cheesecake because it is, it is really creamy. So I love your idea of just serving the texture on the side so you can control the sweetness, but that texture element is nice. I think it's nice. I mean, maybe this person wants to mess around with junior style and do a sponge cake because those aren't that sweet. And so, you know, that could be worth playing around with too. Yeah. So you've got options. Got options. Well, we solved that college problems in so many ways. I know. Let's see if we can do it again. We've got one more. Hi, King Arthur. I'm wondering what I should do if my recipe calls for a spring form pan, but I don't have one. Thank you. You go buy one. Go to KingArthurBaking.com. No, I don't. Do you own a spring form? I own so many pans. I own, I think two or three spring forms. I do not know how I got into the situation, but there's an entire closet in my apartment that is dedicated to spring forms. No, to my bake, to my cooking and baking supplies. And I have plenty of space in my kitchen for that stuff too. And yeah, I have two or three spring forms. But if I didn't have a spring form pan, I would not let that stop me if I wanted to make a cheesecake. Do we, I assume our listeners know what a spring form pan is, but you know, I mean, it's worth, it's in case you don't know. So it's a, you know, a metal base plate and then it has a ring that is sort of tensioned with a like a buckle almost like a belt. And, you know, you see it in cheesecake recipes just really because it makes it easier to unmold things that would be harder to turn out of a pan. Right. Because you unbuckle the sides and lift it up and you don't have to deal with tipping a cake out. Right, right. Exactly. So it's a great thing. Yeah. It's fun. For the things that need it, I think, you know, it's very useful to have, but it's not the only option. No, I mean, my solution to this would be just to find a pan of the same size, you know, it's an eight inch, nine inch, whatever, and just put some parchment down. Yeah, like a parchment circle. Yeah, parchment circle on the bottom of the pan, grease the sides of the pan and make my cheesecake there. It's not going to be as pretty when I, because you're going to have to then get it out. Right. And you would tip it out and the parchment is going to make it easy to tip it out. You run a knife, put a knife around the edges to loosen it. I would do this when it's cold. Yeah, it's going to be easier and more firm. But the top is probably going to get a little mangled because you're going to have to flip it and then put it back. This is where the can cherry pie filling comes in. You're just looking for any, any reason to get it in. But yes, but absolutely. Yeah, you top it with something. Well, and I think you also, you know, springform pans are typically quite deep, you know, sometimes they're three or four inches deep. So that is one thing to be mindful of because, you know, obviously you want to give room for the cheesecake to expand. So you would want a deep round cake pan. Yes, I would say like you want one with like three inch sides, because otherwise you're going to be in a world of hurt, like that's going to overflow and that is going to be a bummer. If you have just a shallow one, I would abandon ship and I would make cheesecake bars. Oh yeah, we have a great recipe for cheesecake bars. And then we also have a recipe for no bake chocolate cheesecake bars on our site too, which have a chocolate cookie crust. And I think that's, that is a good solution. Well, anyway, the, the, the point is, don't let anything stop you from making a cheesecake. You have lots of options. So how are we doing? How are you feeling about cheesecake now? Now that we've talked about it for half an hour. You know, this often happens when we record these that I'm like, you know what, I can actually go for a slice of, I can go for a piece of my house. I was thinking about Michelle's cheesecake and I was like, that is a, that is a good cheesecake. Yeah. Maybe I don't hate, maybe I was just being a curmudgeon. This is amazing. You've been converted. I've been converted. All this talk about water beds and, you know, shortbread and everything. I'm, I'm on board. Although I do think it's time for you to don't stop being a curmudgeon yet because every episode we like to check in with Jessica and see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. A segment we call Jess opinions for our first Jess opinion of season three. Jessica, what do you have? Well, I think my initial offering here was to say, I was like, I'm just, my opinions that I don't like cheesecake. Well, you delivered that one many times early. And I don't think that's entirely. That's entirely true. But, you know, what we haven't talked about a cheesecake that I think breaks the mold and one that I do like very much. And I think of as like a cake made with cheese, maybe not a cheesecake is the Japanese style soufflé. Cheesecakes. Those are called cotton cheesecakes. Cotton cheesecakes. Yeah. You know, and they tend to be tall, like a bass cheesecake and like very fluffy and light and like almost like a plush texture. Like none of that sort of fudgy denseness that I was objecting to earlier when we were talking about the New York ones where I was like, it's like peanut butter on the roof of your mouth. Like it's not quite, you know, it's not as silky as a bass cheesecake, but it has this like lovely fluffy texture. And those I really do like the Japanese style cheesecake. And we do have a recipe on our site for that style of cheesecake. And that I think is a worthy endeavor. I think that if you've never had that style before, I think they're they're fun to make and fun to eat and like a total departure from like what we think of as cheesecake. So. And real quick, what gives them that texture? Are the egg whites, is it soufflé sort of or the egg whites are beaten to medium peaks or whatever? Yeah. Or stiff? I should look at our recipe. But yeah, we'll look at the recipe. We'll follow up in the next episode. We'll actually put a link to that cheesecake recipe in the show notes. We'll put a link to the pumpkin bass cheesecake that we talked about. I mean, I suppose we could throw in a classic New York style cheesecake recipe there too. We'll put all those recipes, not just in the show notes, in the sub stack. In the sub stack. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll go even deeper on the thing that my pros and cons about cheesecake on sub stack. Listeners, please sign up for the sub stack. We're almost done with this episode, but first, Jessica, I have to ask you a very important question. What are you baking this week? Well, we have a major holiday coming up here on Things Bakers now. Big time. And I'm not talking about Easter. I was thinking it was Easter. Yeah. And I'm not talking about Passover. Right, or Passover. Your birthday. Mm-hmm. That's right. Sweet 16. Thank you for coming right up. That's right. Give me those keys. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I wouldn't be a good co-host if I wasn't going to, you know, bake you a birthday cake. Oh, thank you. I mean, I'm not going to. No. Oh. I was thinking back to our birthday cake episode when you were talking about death cakes. Mm-hmm. You know, you were like, what I like is. Right, because as you know, I celebrate my death day. Yeah, your death day. And you and I are the same age, so this is not a milestone birthday yet. No. But I was thinking about, like, you know, like what's like a death cake, but not as depressing. Okay, yes. And yeah, that would be great for me to not be as depressed as I am. Yeah, and I was thinking about it's a very beloved recipe on our site, but that favorite fudge birthday cake. Have you ever made that one? No. Have you ever eaten that one? No. So it's a it's a very deep chocolate, you know, layer cake and chocolate frosting, chocolate between the like a ganache frosting. And it's two layers that you split. So it's like a very, I think it's very elegant. It's a four layer chocolate on chocolate. And, you know, maybe I'll put some sprinkles on there for you. You know, some ice cream on the side. I don't know what's just happening. I hope I'm going to be there. Just let me know. That would be an appropriate moment for my birthday. Are you going to bake something for your own birthday? Look, I am pleased to report. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear. Okay. I'm still on my protein journey side. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show. You and the rest of the US of A. Yes, I eat our super protein pancakes, which is a recipe on our site. If the pancakes have oats, they have four eggs, which is more eggs than a typical pancake uses our oat flour. I use our oat flour and our oats are also a higher protein. Yes, they are rolled out to have more protein than your average oat. Yeah. And lots of cottage cheese into your point. They these are a little dense. All protein pancakes are a little dense. But what I've started doing, it is power. Thank you. Why did I thank you? I don't know. You're welcome. I have started whipping the egg whites separately. So sort of like the cottage cheese stick. I just wanted them to have a little bit more lift, a little bit more airiness. So it's an extra step. It's casual. It's a casual way up and just to get some air in it and get them. So that's what I'll be eating this week. I like those with like a smear of almond butter or peanut butter. More protein. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. We also have, you know, just a shout out to the protein people out there. You know, God bless you all. We also have these new egg bites on the side, which are quite good. Also, starring cottage cheese, cottage cheese, eggs. And they're very versatile. They're made in it, like, you know, in muffin tins. Like kind of like the ones from that coffee chain that everyone's obsessed with. So, you know, that one, that one. As always, it's I mean, it's really fun to do this in person. You know, turned out it is fun to do that. You know, I mean, I liked doing it in my remote prepper shed in my main woods. But I feel like this is more in the spirit of things. And thank you as ever to our listeners for joining us here on Things Bakers. No, season three. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon. And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode and or share this episode with a friend. Right, right. You can do both. You can do both. And remember, people, in the meantime, don't forget. Follow the recipe. Follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tomarkin. And me, Jessica Badalana. Rossi Anastapulo was our senior producer. Chad Chenai is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Thanks again to Carla Hall for appearing on this episode. You can find more information about Carla and her work at CarlaHall.com. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.