The King of Moab: Ultrarunner Max Jolliffe On Winning Moab 240, Recovery From Heroin Addiction & Why Suffering Is His Greatest Teacher

So a little over nine months ago, I underwent spinal fusion surgery and since then my focus has shifted away from chasing these really big audacious performance goals like I did in the past to now accepting my limitations in this current reality and learning how to build a daily rhythm that actually feels sustainable for where I'm at right now today and whoop this wearable health and fitness coach that you see right here on my wrist every time you see me is this amazing tool that gives me insights into all the things that influence how I feel and how I perform my sleep my recovery my strain and my overall health so that I can better understand how my habits are influencing how I feel and what's interesting is how these insights translate beyond training better sleep changes improve how I show up at work recovery changes how patient I am with my family and when I'm planning for bigger goals like lining up to participate in the New York City marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday this fall who helps me stay grounded in what my body needs right now not what my ego wants it to do or what I used to be able to do and I think that's really what adding more life to your years means making decisions today that allow you to show up more fully tomorrow go to join.wook.com slash roll for one month free of work. I've been sober for 12 years it's a big part of who I am I just come from like a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts people ask me what is my heritage and it's like alcoholism. Max Joliff the king of Moab. The Moab 240 is a 240 mile race through the desert of Utah. You have climbing you have descending you have dirt, dust, sand, Moab 240's got everything. For you to win Moab after only a few years of running yeah is so unique in this space. If you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve and you do put in the work anything is possible. You come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously gonna make your life better but how have they made you like a better runner? That's a great question. Super nice to meet you it's been so fun following your journey over the past couple years and I'm just delighted to talk to you. Thank you. Thanks for coming. For people that don't know you've won the Moab 240 and you're on this kind of ascent path right now in your career as an ultra runner. What do people not get about a race like Moab 250? We see these videos we watch your videos we think we have a sense of what's involved. What is your kind of like reality check on what it's actually like to cover that much distance in a competitive environment? It's almost like these races are not even races like I try to go into the multi-day events almost looking at it as this is a big adventure that I'm just trying to do absolutely as fast as possible and it's like you almost can't wrap your head around being out there and pushing so hard for I mean quite literally days straight and not sleeping. It's just there's so many outside factors and variables. I mean you run a hundred miles and it's like you're problem solving and dealing with all these different little issues that might come up and foot stuff and pains and fueling and hydration and managing electrolytes and sodium and the crew logistics and the gear. There's like so many moving parts and I think the 200s and the multi-day stuff is just like that just longer and on a bigger scale. So yeah it's hard to almost even look at them as a race and most of the time you're like out there by yourself like the field is so spread out. You're on some kind of spiritual journey. No quite literally. Yeah and like I said earlier it's like you can experience every single human emotion during a race like that. The crazy thing in the King of Moab video is those last four miles. That last stage where after all that time and distance it was still up for grabs like are you going to win? Are you going to get past? You're moving so slowly at this point. Anything can happen. And then you find your legs. You're like God gave me my legs back and you're hitting paces that you hadn't like in the entire race at the very end of this thing. It makes no sense that you could like dig that deep or suddenly find that like deeper reservoir of access like a capacity that no one would have thought possible. Yeah and that's like kind of just the race factor and being motivated and getting a little spike of adrenaline or like seeing like the hope or the light at the end of the tunnel like oh maybe there is still a chance for me which is really what I felt during Moab. I was five hours behind the leader at mile 200, 15 miles behind him and he just happened to be going through a rough part of the race for him. He kept having to stop and you know the 12 hours before I was having a really rough section so it's just like it's so variable and the races are so long and so many things that could happen like you can quite literally get to the very end of the race. You know second to last aid station like I did at Coca-Cola and just have to drop. I can't stand up anymore. I've got a cellulite infection in my legs and I can't stand up. I can't put shoes on. I can't move. It's over. After all that time being out there pushing so hard, so much work, so many months of training and it all comes down to this race and it just doesn't happen. It's just the way it goes. What do you think are the most salient aspects of your upbringing that have contributed the most to you being who you are today? Yeah this could be a very long story but I think maybe the best way for me to just put it is like I had just a really complicated upbringing in life. There was lots of good that happened. I can't say it was all bad. I really did enjoy my childhood and I was lucky enough to be born and raised in a really incredible place, Newport Beach of all places. What a killer place to be at, to be a kid and to grow up in. I just come from a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. My entire family, both my parents, my sister, my grandparents on each side, probably their parents and their parents and their grandparents. People ask me what is my heritage and it's like alcoholism. It's not like English or European descent. It's like alcoholism is just where I come from. As much as I've had it just absolutely rock my family, it was kind of inevitable that I was going to go down the same path. I really do think even if I had the best upbringing ever and there was no trauma, no abuse, I still probably would have gone down the same path that I did. I think that all just started from the beginning with me just having this obsessive mind. Even when I was a real little kid, it was like Halloween time, like candy, being obsessed and hoarding candy or sneaking off to go to 7-Eleven to get a little sugar fix. The signs were all there and it was pretty clear from third person perspective that I was going to end up with an addictive personality and kind of falling to alcoholism and drug addiction as much as I would have not liked to. I've seen it absolutely rock my family. My mom has been sober for 36, almost 40 years and my dad has had a really rough go and is still currently suffering and he's out. That's a really difficult and complicated relationship for me to even talk about. I know it's not different than a lot of other people. I know so many people that suffer from the same thing that I do and have a very similar story. Me at least being able to share that with people and tell my story and if people relate to it and can get something good out of it, that's what I look forward to and what satisfies me the most. It's like first started drinking and using right around, I don't know, middle school times like 13-14, started off smoking weed with friends and cracking a couple beers and just being a curious kid, trying things out and kind of right around the same time. I ended up, I think it was 14 years old. I was with my mom and my sister. We were at Trader Joe's and I had some friends that were going to go to the skate park and I was in a rush to get home and was crossing the street in the crosswalk with my skateboard and this lady hit me in her car going like 35 miles an hour and I ended up in the hospital. I almost broke my femur. I ended up just chipping a bunch of my teeth. Got road rash all over my body. They rushed me straight to the hospital. They're doing CT scans on my brain. I wasn't wearing a helmet. Just a very chaotic traumatic event and they get me into the ER and they just hit me with morphine and that was the first time in my life where I was like, okay, I'm going to be okay. Despite this crazy traumatic event that had just happened to me, I felt the relief for the first time. A warm blanket. Yeah. Then they send me home with a prescription for oxy and that set in motion this snowball that turned into a really, really big problem for me in my life throughout the next 10 years. Yeah. It was oxy. That was the drug of choice. Yeah. It was always opiates. I was a garbage disposal for a long time. I wouldn't do or try anything, but in the end, it ended up just being opiates and heroin and those Purdue Pharma oxy-contin pills like the Sackler family, that documentary painkiller. Those are the pills that really destroyed me and almost an entire generation of people and a ton of my friends. Yeah, it's just real, man. Is the heroin when you just run out of the pills and you can't get them? Yeah. Well, it was- Is that the path to heroin? Yeah. It was around, God, it had to have been right when I was graduating high school around 2010. I think the government and people started catching on that- They started cracking down. These things are so highly addicted. Will you go into those pill clinics where it was just super easy to fake a script or something? Yeah. I wasn't specifically, but I had multiple friends that were doing the doctor shopping, going, coming up to LA, seeing crooked doctors, getting 120 of these 80 milligram oxy-pills and then going down the street to another crooked doctor that'll write them a prescription for another 120. They were everywhere. If you were a user, it was very easy to get those things. Around 2010, and well, what was super unique and weird about those pills is you could so easily just scrape the time release coding off of them and people were smoking them on tinfoil, like straight up heroin. I didn't know you could smoke them. Yeah. That's what me and I mean, you could smoke them, shoot them, eat them. They were like, it was a very maybe innovative- It's like creation. That's dark shit though. Right. Was that intentional on their part? Who knows? That was just like, a lot of those friends who were doing that same thing that I was doing, the doctor shopping thing, and addicted just like I was. I have a friend who, he broke his surfing and they prescribed him those pills. None of us planned on being junkies in drug addicts, but that's just like, I think anyone, if you put on those pills for long enough, you will become addicted. It's unavoidable. Our brains are just wired. When that chemical hits your brain, it's just like you become dependent upon it. Around 2010, the government caught on, they just stopped making them, they banned them. They just pretty much overnight disappeared everywhere. All of these people who were addicted to these pills just immediately switched to heroin. Your mom's, your mom was sober, has been sober your whole life though. And I would assume that she's got some kind of radar vision when this starts kicking off for you. How many siblings do you have? What was going on at the house at this time? I have one younger sister and my mom, she's been sober her whole life. She was a stay-at-home mom and this is where the whole family dynamic gets a little bit interesting. She never really worked a job and when, right around the same time that I'm starting to experiment with using drugs and alcohol, like we have the 2008 financial collapse and my dad, he was a creative writer. He has a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern, just a very smart and very gifted and talented human being, but just deep at his core, just an alcoholic that never really was equipped to deal with life. He ended up losing his job due to alcoholism and for the majority of my childhood, he was like pulling it off, but always chipping on the side. We'd go on family vacations and the family car would be totaled and he would have a DUI or some story that was like, oh, someone borrowed my car, typical alcoholic. But he was in the house? He was in the house and then their marriage, I mean, just, I mean, my dad just really lost everything and their marriage fell apart. My mom didn't really have anywhere to go so she ended up moving to Arizona to live with her parents and made my sister just like didn't want to go and we chose to stay where we were and what we were familiar with and we're kind of like left with this man who was just a progressing alcoholic and yeah, things got like really bad and dark pretty quickly. My dad, it was every day like a pint of vodka. I'd come home from school and he'd leave in Las Vegas style. Like worse, he would spend days on end just on the couch, like couldn't even get up or stand up. He would drink fifths and just giant bottles of vodka and I'd come home from school and find him on the floor of the kitchen and have to get on my hands and knees to check if he was breathing and that was a daily occurrence. I remember one time I got arrested at school for stealing a sandwich from this deli that was like across the street and I ended up getting busted coming back on campus and they had me in handcuffs in a cop car and school gets out and everyone walks past. I'm just completely humiliated and this cop, I ended up getting suspended and whatever, it wasn't that big of a deal. But the cop was telling me, he's all, hey, I can release you if you have a family member that can come pick you up and I was like, I just straight up told him, I was like, dude, you can call my dad but he's not going to answer. We live in these apartments across the street and you can walk me over to our house and I'll open the door and he'll be passed out on the ground and cop drove me over there. We walked up to my door and opened the door and lo and behold, he's just like literally passed out on the floor and it was just shit like that. It was just- So you're just left to your own devices. You gotta raise yourself. It's just chaos. And I do, the only thing that makes me feel comfortable is just the same shit that he's doing. It's like drugs and alcohol were the solution and the fix and just what made me just feel okay with the shitty circumstances of my life. But the internal conflict, the tension of like, I'm never going to be like my dad and knowing that like, yeah, you're kind of headed in that direction, deep down, maybe not consciously admitting it to yourself. As much as I don't want to float down the river to- You're on this inevitable escalator that you can't get off. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so sorry, man. I can't imagine, like my circumstances growing up were very different, but this idea of the home environment being so chaotic and this notion that like, no one's coming to save me. Like it's just up to me and trying to figure that out as a young person, like all on your own with just your sister. Yeah. And then like, I mean, eventually my mom did come and save us. We ended up moving to Arizona for a year and living with her and which I just continued the progression of my own disease. But there was almost a whole year in high school where I was like homeless, like living at friends' houses because I just like couldn't or didn't want to stay at home. It was like, at one point my dad owned two houses on this street that kind of he didn't lose those houses. They'd probably be worth $5 million in total, but yeah, lost one house, then drank the other house away and then we move into apartments and eventually he just like gets his seventh DUI in however many years and he ended up going to jail. So it was just me and my sister living at friends' houses, sleeping on floors. How did you not end up in the system somehow? Well, I think we were about to. So when my dad finally went away for a pretty long stint in jail, my mom just showed up and she was like, you guys got to come with me like this. It's a rap here. Were you at Newport High School? Newport Harbor High. Newport Harbor High. Like for people that don't know, this is an insanely well-heeled, privileged, high net worth area. A lot of people with a lot of money, conservative community and for you to be kind of in the circumstances that you were, I would imagine created some social consternation. Yeah. And I always felt like why me? Seeing all of my friends that have all these kind of picture perfect families and then I'm just stuck in this household of chaos and abuse and fighting and the cops getting called to my house and wondering if one of my parents is going to go to jail. Just the chaos of my life, I almost, yeah, just a lot of times remember thinking like, God, why do this to me? Why do I deserve this? And I don't know, it turns out like in hindsight, I'm so grateful that I was able to experience some hardship early on in my life and it taught me some really valuable lessons and as much as terrible as alcoholism and drug addiction is, I really feel like it's made me the person that I am today and yeah, honestly wouldn't take any of it back. There is this amazing pipeline from drug addicts and alcoholics in recovery into ultra endurance sports and ultra running. It's just like show up at the start line of any ultra and just tattoos as far as the eye can see and it seems like there's just an insanely high percentage of people who are in recovery. Yeah. And sometimes I wonder, it's like, did I just become like so desensitized to life just from just all the shit that I've been through that ultra running is like the most extreme form of running and just an ability for me to like feel something, you know what I mean? If it's hardship or pain or I mean, dude, some races you can almost experience an entire lifetime of emotions in one single race. So I don't know, maybe that's a big reason why I was just so drawn to ultra running. Yeah, I think there's, that's an interesting lens on it. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I mean, the way that I generally think about it is I believe that addicts are seekers on some level and they're seeking answers to their questions and they're seeking comfort to their discomfort in unhealthy ways. But ultimately, like they're, they want what everyone wants, they want, they want to feel connected, they want to feel loved, they want to feel safe, like all of these things and you know, drugs and alcohol, you know, are very reliable in providing those things temporarily until they derail your life. But then when you take that away, that hardwired, kind of predisposition for extreme experiences to feel something, to feel alive, to try to understand yourself in the world, when that gets removed, like you're going to find another way to explore that. And ultra running is like right there, like, hey, you know, you can go as deep as you want and suffer and you know, on some level, maybe it's like, you know, that addict thing, like I'm better than everyone else, but I'm also the biggest piece of shit in the world. You know, it's like, well, ultra running will deliver on both levels, you know, because if you finish a race, you're like this amazing, you know, esteem building sort of situation. But also, like, you're just going to go to the darkest cave you've ever gone to and you're going to experience that level of suffering that on some level, maybe you're, you, you're kind of looking for. Right. There's something therapeutic in that. Yeah. Yeah. Like how do you think about suffering as a teacher? I feel like, yeah, pain and suffering is my biggest motivator in life to do anything. Like, I remember specifically, you know, finally, you know, after all the shit that I went through, overdosing, you know, getting arrested multiple times, spending quite a bit of time in jail, which is how I did finally end up getting sober. I just like, and the one thing that my dad did for me that I like was the most valuable thing that he ever taught me was he just like dragged my ass to AA. And while I was like kind of in the worst time of my addiction, he was actually sober for, you know, quite a few years. So there were, there were times when, you know, he had periods of, you know, kind of pulling it off and multiple years of sobriety here and there, which came and went. But I remember, you know, when I was like just really strung out and really bad, the only thing he could really think to do was like, I just need to like get this kid in an AA meeting and he would drag me to meetings. And I was like, I'd be going to meetings high. And it was, yeah, I just like wasn't ready. But at least it planted the seed for me to know that, hey, when the stars do align, and I do finally have this opportunity where I'm ready and willing to get sober, I know where to go. And I ended up getting out of jail. I spent almost three months in there and- For what? You just got busted? Yeah, I mean, I had originally gotten arrested for possession with intent to distribute cocaine and marijuana to separate charges. And then I ended up getting put on formal probation for multiple years. And I just like could not give a clean drug test. Like I'd failed just dirty drug tests over and over and over. And then finally my probation officer was like, dude, this is like the 10th one, like you're out of here, you're going in for a 90 day violation, which was the best thing to happen to me. Like I just needed to be removed from the situation that I was in, the people that I was in. I was just strung out. And I had, you know, I tried detox and had little brief stints, but I just kept going back to the same thing. And I needed like a long extended period of time of being locked up away from everyone to like finally get my shit straight and like just physically detox. So, yes, I spent three months in like a very low security jail facility in Orange County. And then as soon as I got out, I just like got super plugged into AA. And I just like, it was every day I was going to meetings. And I got really lucky that like a lot of my friends that, you know, I was out there using and running and gunning with like a lot of them were like kind of like ended up getting sober right around the same time. And I just had like a super like awesome support group. And I like feel so lucky. I just got so plugged in with this like this community down in Orange County. And Orange County is like weirdly a hub for AA. Like there's tons of, you know, rehabs and treatment centers. It's like almost kind of like a mecca for recovery and alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous. So, yeah, I just like really dove in headfirst to the program and work in the 12 steps. And yeah, you know, I, I my life did start to get better, but it was, you know, like anything, you know, you become complacent and going back to like the pain, pain was the biggest motivator thing for me. Like it really took me to get to a point where I was like sober, but like still completely miserable to actually like really invest into working the 12 steps and actually applying them to my life. And then, you know, once I finally do work the 12 steps, and I start working with other people and taking them through the steps. And like that's when like, I really started to make serious progress in my life and start to feel the benefits. And like, right around the same time, I like randomly just discover running. I just like, yeah, quite by mistake. Cleanup after dinner. This is something that used to end with a compost routine, scraping plates, dealing with the bin, taking stuff outside. And it worked kind of, but it was just one more chore at the end of the day and always way more messy than it should have been. But now courtesy of Mill, we have this fully automated food recycler that has completely changed the game. 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Not only did I keep my same phone number, it turned out to be this incredibly quick and easy process. But it's not just about saving money, it's about taking back your time and your attention. And right now, as a listener of this show, you can try Noble today for just $10. Go to noblemobile.com slash richroll, get paid to use your phone less. It's an interesting kind of conundrum when you know you need to change, you know it's inevitable that at some point you're going to have to like, you know, give up this thing and start doing something else. But that's not enough to get you to do it. You know, there is something very specific about pain and suffering that gives birth to the willing. It's all about willingness. It's like, you know what you need to do, right? But are you willing? And until you're willing, you're not going to make that choice and you're going to continue to slide and your life's going to get worse until you reach that point where enough's enough, as we say, you reach that point in jail. But willingness is such a fickle kind of energy. Like you can't, you can't will somebody to be willing and you can't just decide to be willing. It's almost like this weird thing that descends down on you when you're in enough pain and gives you this burst of energy that you didn't have five minutes prior to finally do that different thing. And I think for me, I was just like quite literally like beaten into a state of willingness. Like I share about this in meetings all the time, the, you know, weeks and months leading up to the day that I got sober, like truly every single day felt like the worst day of my life. It was like Groundhog's Day on repeat of just like just the worst day ever. And yeah, when, you know, the cops showed up in my door, you know, like they always do when you're on probation, they just show up at any given time. And they showed up one morning and I was like, this, like, this is it. This is my one opportunity. Like I know they're taking me to jail. So like, I'm just, this might be my only shot to get sober. So I was, you know, quite literally beaten into a state of willingness and reasonableness. And I, you know, had a moment of clarity where I saw that like, Hey, this might be, you know, where the stars align and I might only have this small window of opportunity to like actually get over in space. These fleeting moments, because you know, if you don't act in that moment, it will pass and you'll be back to your bullshit, you know. And I think for people that don't really understand addiction, they struggle with this idea of like, well, clearly, you know, you're going down the wrong path here, look at your dad, like there's the blueprint. This is where you're headed. How come you can't just make this different choice, you know, but you're stuck in this cycle of, you know, compulsion and, you know, craving and reward that is so cunning, baffling and powerful. It's near impossible. It's, you know, when people take hits at AA and 12 step all the time, like, Oh, it doesn't really work. The sobriety rate is very low and all of that. And they miss the fact that like, you know, when somebody relapses or goes out, it's like, Oh my God, somebody drags like, no, what the miracle is that like, all these other people didn't drink today, you know, it is, it's, it's so, it's so pernicious and challenging to overcome. And it requires those moments of clarity where willingness descends and you realize you have this brief moment of time to like make that different decision and set something in motion that's going to move your life in a new direction. And then through working those steps, you know, you end up developing a relationship with God and, you know, getting, I mean, the byproduct is like, I've just like been gifted this like super amazing life now that I like never thought would have ever been possible. It was just, it looked like scorched earth just all around me. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Yeah. The arc. And so that was 2012, right? Yeah, I got sober April 6th of 2012. So I'll have 14 years on April 6th. Yeah. That's amazing. And like, yeah, I just like, I can't really take any credit for it. It's all like what God has done for me and the program of alcoholics anonymous and like all the people around me, like I could go on and name a hundred different people that like have done so much for me in my life. But I just like, I just like quite literally like grew up in the program of alcoholics anonymous. And like finally, for the first time had like real men around me who were like solid role models and like learned valuable life skills and how to live a life. Like I had no skills of any kind. I wasn't good at anything. I had nothing going for me. And all I do is like show up to these meetings and like listen to people talk and like get my hand held as I figure out how to be a normal human being, you know. And you had no solid stable male role model in your life up until then. I mean, it's like so weird. Like my dad was, he's like been around my whole life, but not really ever super present. And like, I really don't feel like I even know the guy. I mean, especially in the last, you know, seven or eight years that we've been estranged. Like I haven't spoken to him in many, many years. And yeah, he's, you know, chosen a life that I can't be a part of, you know, that involves drugs and alcohol and crime and mental institutions and jails and hospitals and a life that doesn't involve his family, which, you know, is fine. That's, it is what it is. And as much as it hurts, it, I don't know, it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to find some level of compassion because he's the, you know, he's the alcoholic who's out there, you know, sick? Yeah, totally. And like, I don't, I don't ever like harbor any resentment or anger towards him. I mean, obviously, you know, it's like that does know when any good is like the resentment is only killing me. But like, yeah, I just like genuinely like feel sorry for people who were just like suffering and just cannot get it because I've been there. I like, I've so badly wanted to just stop getting high and stop drinking and stop using, but just not being able to like for the life of me. So, yeah, I just, you know, I just really feel for him and I still do love him, but I just have to separate myself and like for my own mental health and sanity. It's just like, I've done this dance over and over where, you know, I let him back in and give him an inch and he takes a mile and just chaos ensues. And it's just, yeah, it's, it's just really complicated and messy, you know. So you're this skater kid, basically, right? Like I'm trying to imagine, you know, you in high school, like, like punk rock, like what are you listening to? Like, who are your influences? Like, what are you thinking about? And then let's like lead it up into like how you get introduced to running. I think I was just, I mean, super into skating and surfing was always like my two loves. I'm like decent at both, never good enough to be, never good enough to end up being on the surf team or skating and contests or anything, but just always really loved, you know, both surf and skate culture and, you know, growing up in Orange County, Costa Mesa, like all of the big brands are there, like Volcom, Quicksilver, Rooka, Hurley, like you name it. That's kind of where surf and skate mecca was. So, you know, being a kid, I just like loved going to the skate park and loved going to the beach and surfing. And that was like kind of my whole life and idolizing dudes like Andy Irons and Kelly and skaters, like all of the Baker guys and Tony Hawk. I mean, I do I was just my friend sent me an old photo of me and a bunch of us little groms as kids. And I'm like in every single photo, I'm wearing like a Tony Hawk shirt and like old Volcom shirts, which is funny. But that was just like me. I just was a little skate surfer at. And what was the vision? Like, did you have an idea of what you wanted your life to be? Or were you thinking about like what you might want to do? Not really. I mean, I don't know. I think there was just so much going on at home that I like really didn't have an opportunity to envision a life for myself. And like, I remember being like a little kid, like, I mean, young, like almost a toddler and like wanting to be a trash man, just because I saw the trash, right trash back when you're in high school and things are going sideways. It's like, hey, man, like I don't, you know, I'm not really seeing like a path. Oh, well, I so I'm just going to enjoy. I mean, I got good grades in school and I just like knew I was never going to make it to college. Like there was just no way that I was going to be able to financially be able to afford or pull it off or even just like apply for a loan or a scholarship. Like I just like that was it was never even like in the cards for me. I was just like quite literally trying to survive. Like I was, you know, homeless in high school. So I knew that it yeah, I was just like trying to survive just barely making it, you know. So you're plugged into meetings post 2012, you're dialed. You're starting to put the, you know, pieces back together and figure your life out. I get a job at a surf company. Yeah. Yeah. No, I worked it early for Until like this past year. Yeah, up until just last year, November left. I was there for almost 15 years, but yeah, just started off at the company, sweeping floors and cleaning screens, like t-shirt printing screens and doing artwork with a friend of mine and, you know, weird little marketing activations. But yeah, it was just like kind of like a hang around, grom and worked my way up through the company. Going from, you know, just a 10 to 99 freelance contractor just contracted help to getting brought on to the graphic design team and then designing t-shirts and board short prints for a couple years and, you know, acquiring more skills and hunting my craft and then becoming an apparel designer for multiple years after that. Like I, you know, at the beginning when I first got brought on, like I was a Nike employee at the time, Hurley was a, that surf category for the Nike organization. So was, you know, affiliated with Nike. But this is like your college for learning how to be an effective storyteller and kind of public facing content creator. And it was cool being part of like such a big, like well-oiled, kind of corporate machine. Like I saw the inner workings of like how focused Hurley and the Nike organization was on brand and storytelling. And we'd have these big town hall meetings where it was like, it felt like almost like a broken record on repeat. It was like storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. And yeah, just like getting to work with like John Florence, you know, he was, you know, a huge part of the brand. And I'm still super tight with a lot of the Hurley family that's gone on and started Florence Marine X, John's company. So yeah, just being really plugged in with very talented and creative people and just kind of being brought up and learning from the people around me. But it'd never been like a quote unquote, like an athlete, as we understand an athlete, like in high school, you can play sports or anything like that. No, I played, I played water polo for like the first two years of high school. And was like, when you live in Newport, I mean, I just like, I always kind of like loved the water and like wasn't good enough to make it on the surf team. So like, what's the only other water sport that you can do? It's like water polo and swimming. And I was just like really small in the beginning of high school and, you know, was never going to make it onto the varsity team. So my sophomore year, they swim season was coming. And I was like, I don't want to go through the hell of just being on swim team during swim season. It's just like so grueling and so much like hard work, which is funny that I was like, That's hilarious. Avoiding the hard work. So I was like, I'm just gonna, and then I ended up getting recruited by the coach of the wrestling team. So I ended up wrestling my sophomore year of high school, got brought on straight to the varsity team because they didn't have a 103 pounder. So I was like the lightest way and already was in pretty good shape just from being on the swim team. So you weren't like a total burnout in high school then? No, but I was like the worst player on the swim team and the water polo team. And then, you know, because I'm so small in this weight class where I'm like, because I have decent cardio, I was, you know, immediately put onto the varsity team and like had, I don't know, I had some wins, but mostly losses. Like I wasn't a gifted or talented athlete, but I did always have the ability to like put in the hard work. Like yes, I wasn't like genetically gifted to like ever get big or be talented or have any skills in any sports, but I always was able to work hard, if that makes sense. Yeah, but not on the cross country team or the track and field team. Yeah, I didn't even ever run once until I was 25 or 26. So yeah, where is that first touch point was running? So once I got a job at Hurley, they had a skate park in one of the warehouses. They had this huge campus like probably 10 or 15 buildings. And one of the buildings was this dedicated warehouse that was just a skate park in it. So, you know, I get a job there. I'm, you know, a couple years sober, you know, my life's starting to get good. I'm starting to piece things together. I'm starting to do things that I had, you know, completely given up like surfing and skate, like I'm getting back into skating, I'm getting back into these things that I love doing. I got this nice crew of people like we're going to the skate park at night, like I'm getting better. I'm, you know, progressing and you know, when you're skating is one of those sports where like you do it, like you're just bound to get injured. And I ended up breaking both of my ankles like a year apart. So had a couple injuries. And at the time I was living with a friend of mine who he was just like a, he was like really into the gym, he was a bodybuilder. So he was just really into the gym at the time. And I was in a boot for a while and or a cast and then a boot for a while. And I just got like really out of shape. And at the time I was just, you know, eating junk food and smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, just in a just drinking coffee, smoking six, like the only two vices that I have. And, you know, over that year, just like got really out of shape and just felt like shit a lot. And once I started to finally be able to move around and walk again and felt like I got to the point where I could work out my roommate at the time was like, dude, just come to the gym with me. Like it's the best investment in your health. Like just I'll show you what to do. Just we're going to just work out every single day. So started going to the gym with him and that was great. And I love lifting. I just like wasn't really trying to be a bodybuilder like he was. And I found myself going to the gym and I would just like gravitate to the cardio section. And the stair climber was actually like my entry, my gateway into running and then ultra running. But I would just like go to the gym and just do an hour on the stair climber. And that was like all I would do. And then after a while at that point, just being on the stairs, like my ankles were still like just too messed up to be able to run at that point. And then I remember one day trying to go for a run on the treadmill. And then I was like, Oh, this feels good. And then I'd, you know, started running on the treadmill and then doing the stair climber and the treadmill. And then eventually I found myself just going to the gym to only run on the treadmill. And I'm doing this for, you know, a couple weeks or a month. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership? I'm just going to run on the treadmill. Like, I can do this outside. And then yeah, just started running outdoors. And I like, I never really enjoyed or liked running. But when I finally started doing it on my own, like we always had to run for wrestling. And I mean, even water polo and swimming, they would have us run and soccer and baseball and sports that I played as a kid running was always involved. But I just like never really thought that I liked it. And it wasn't until I started running on my own and like, doing this thing that was like very easily and rapidly producing like tangible results and progress for me. I think that's when I was like, oh, this is like something that's hard. It makes me feel good. And I'm like, getting these like small little wins, it was like the first time in like so long in my life where I was like, actually felt like I was starting to make progress. And I was, I was winning, even though it was just like completing a five mile run, like that was a win for me or like running a mile at eight minute pace, like that was a win. Like those things were so hard. And yeah, I just somewhere along the line just like fell in love with running and just ran more and more. I remember I'd do like an hour long run and be so wrecked I couldn't run for a week after, but just kept with it. And every time I'd run, I'd try to, you know, either run a little bit further or run a little bit faster and just continued to push myself and at one point was like, I just did, I just ran 10 miles without stopping. Like I could probably like sign up and train for a marathon and signed up for my first marathon in 2019 OC marathon and the rest is kind of history. 2019 was your first marathon. Like that was not that long ago. Yeah. When did you realize that you were actually good at this? Was it that first marathon? I think it was that first marathon. I, after like talking with some people and I, I would do, I knew nothing going into it. I just had heard from some people that maybe four hours is a decent time goal, which for the average person, I think four hours is a very, very good and very achievable goal. And then I ran three hours and 27 minutes. Like I ran, you know, over 30 minutes faster than I was even expecting and without knowing what you were doing. Yeah. Without knowing what I was doing rationally. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And then, you know, signing up for another marathon. I think my second one was LA marathon, ran a 306, you know, it was like that kind of kept happening to me where I'd have this maybe like just too conservative goal for myself. And I would just blow my expectations out of the water. And then that carried on into, you know, my third marathon, I ran 248 or 247 or something. Boston qualified got like 14th or something at the race. And then, you know, my first ultra, I mean, it was a super competitive ultra race 50k broken arrow sky race. It wasn't, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't that good of a performance, but I did beat all of my other friends that I was doing it with who were like fairly accomplished runners and had been, you know, running ultra races and running for a long time. And I'm like, brand new in this thing. And I'm like, okay, I'm like, actually surprising myself at every turn. And it really wasn't until I ran my first 50 miler, which was in 2020, the end of 2022 or 2023. And I signed up for this race saddles 50 miler, it's in Arizona, it's a satisfied sponsored race, Michael Versteak puts it on. And I was out there just hanging out. And they were like, Hey, we got a bib for you if you want to run just the night before the race. And I was like, I don't really have any nutrition or electrolytes or anything. But I, you know, I got my vest and, you know, there's some like old expired gels that are like in this like Tupperware thing. I'm like, I could just pee somebody. I'll just run the race for fun. And ended up jumping into the 50 miler the next morning and ended up winning, which was like, and then after that, I was like, okay, like there might be something here. And, you know, I'm really am starting to feel the success that I'm having. And I was like, I'm just like really going to lean into this thing. Like maybe this running thing is my thing, you know, that I've been looking for for so long. Like I've just never really ever been good at anything. And then I find this thing where I'm starting to have a little bit of success. And I'm like, maybe this is it. I'm just going to go on this thing. So that was it. Like, okay, now, whether or not this is my thing, almost doesn't matter. I'm deciding that it is. And I'm going to just focus on it. And take all of my, you know, kind of like, you know, addict obsessiveness and just like And apply it to this. Exactly. And do this thing that also not for nothing is pretty good at emotional regulation. You know what I mean? Like when you're, you know, like that antsy kind of addicty feeling of like not feeling comfortable in your own skin. And like, this is pretty good at managing that. And if you're training super hard during the day, it's like, I always say it almost feels like exhaust yourself. You're so exhausted. You almost have this like force field around you where like anything that like someone might say to you that might like irritate your episy off it just like that stuff just seems like bounce off you. You're just like more content with life. It like almost does the same thing that like drugs and alcohol will do for you, you know. So do people, I'm sure they do like say, well, you just transferred your addiction. Like you're just you're out of control max. Like you're just you're just a dry drunk like with all this ultra running stuff. How do you answer that? Well, I mean, for I mean, for, you know, over 10 years, I was like super involved and plugged in with Alcoholics Anonymous and, you know, have had a sponsor and sponsors. It's not until like maybe the last couple years where I've just, I just have been blessed with this path that I just have to go down and my time is very limited. And, you know, I'm doing so much traveling and training that I haven't been able to like make it to AA and be like super active and involved with meetings in a group in a little while. But yeah, I mean, I would totally agree. Like I take everything to the extreme and running is definitely one of those things, but at least it's, you know, a healthy outlet that's become a very fruitful part of my life and brought me so many blessings and so many friends and so many experiences that I never would have been able to experience if it wasn't for. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly expanding your life aperture and not like narrowing it in the way that drugs and alcohol do, but there is also the kind of warning signs or the danger zone of making these races and this sport, your higher power. Yeah. And I totally know where you're coming from. And there's something that happens with training and sometimes during races where like I feel closest to God during those times and I like have a stronger relationship with God today than I ever did being super involved and plugged in with AA. And I don't know if that's just a product of, you know, seeing the blessings that he's given to me in my life. But yeah, I'm very cognizant of the fact that like I can't rely on racing and training to be my everything. I do still have to be carrying the message and being of service and surrounding myself with good people who are on like the same path as me and invested in the same lifestyle as me and just like also on the pursuit of bettering their lives and being better people. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Money stress is something most of us carry at some point in our lives. It's not just numbers on a spreadsheet. It can shape how we sleep, how we show up in relationships and the pressure we put on ourselves when things feel uncertain. Believe me, when I tell you, I have weathered some extremely challenging financial storms in my life. And I know the intense stress, the distress, the anxiety, the pressure and the overwhelm it can cause. And what I've learned is that those feelings often go deeper than the dollars themselves. 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It might be the most sophisticated piece of technology you own, but it's built to help you focus on what matters, the journey. When you think about the tools of sobriety, how do they inform or how have they made you like a better runner? I'm always interested in this relationship between these two worlds. Like you come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better but are pretty applicable as an athlete and the decisions that you make about what's important and where to focus your energy and your time and how to hone your mindset and push your body. I think the biggest thing is like just knowing that nothing is ever going to be as hard as getting sober. That will forever be the hardest thing that I've ever done. And no matter what, no matter how hard training or how much pain I'm in during a race, nothing is worse than kicking heroin in jail. So just knowing that, having that in the back of my mind is a big motivating factor that I can and I am able to do these really hard things. But I think more so is just being able to surrender to circumstances and situations that are out of your control, which a lot of ultra running is just like problem solving and dealing with these things that just pop up and are out of your control and being able to just roll with the punches and I mean even more so just being a public figure or a person on social media. I think the tools of AA have helped me navigate this weird world that is social media and putting my story out online and just dealing with people. In person it's always great. There's never any issues at races like the community is amazing. I've only ever had good encounters or interactions with people. It's online where there can be some resistance or just weird shit that goes on with people online and that's where I really have to lean on the tools of AA to not fire back at people online and not make comments and just keep my mouth shut and take an inventory and admit when I am wrong when I do something stupid or fire off something, a comment that hurts someone's feelings, take a step back, do a tenth step and reflect on what is my part in this, where was I wrong, this is human being who has real feelings and emotions. I just want to keep my side of the street clean and not have someone with their feelings hurt because of some stupid shit that I said. I'm a real person. I am emotional. I struggle with the same things that everyone else does. I'm not perfect, but being brought up and learning from the principles of AA has helped me be able to just deal with that shit and be a man. I'm glad that you mentioned surrender because I think that that's a key piece in all of this. You can't get sober if you're relying on your self-will. You're going to just relapse and relapse and relapse. If you think that you're going to be able to figure it out on your own, it's only when you get to that point where you are willing to let go, let people in, and understand that you're not the center of the universe and don't have all the answers and that you're more powerless than powerful. In the context of running ultras, you have to be in a state of surrender. There's too many variables. It's too long. The distances are so mind-boggling. You have no control over the elements or the other competitors. That's true in any athletics. The only way you're going to be able to get from the starting line to 240 miles later is if you are in that state of surrender, like, okay, God, help me get from here to there. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not going to be able to do it completely under my own power. I certainly have no control over all the things that might happen along the way. And to always remain being teachable, always trying to learn the lessons. A lot of these races, I'm just like, I'm learning as I'm going. I'm still very new to this thing. Even the 200-mile distances are a very new world within ultrarunning. Yeah. A lot of it's uncharted territory and trying to learn from the mistakes that I made. And I've made so many mistakes. I really honestly haven't felt like I've had a good 200-mile race yet. I've won one. I've DNFed another and had a decent podium performance at another race. But I really feel like I haven't cracked the code at that distance. I've had some... Dude, you've only been doing this a couple years. No, right. You're still so new. I mean, the idea of these 200-mile races is new. You're new to it. You're also super young. And the other people that are excelling at those distances are 20 years older than you and have been running for most of their lives. Sure. Yeah. But I mean, I think it's more so just all of us learning together on this new thing. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. It's brand new. What's the best way to handle sleep in a 200-mile race? No one's really cracked the code or figured it out. So just me, I always try to take valuable lessons and learn from these races and be able to apply it into future races. So yeah, that's just another principle of the program is like, learn from your mistakes, try not to do it again. Be teachable. I mean, I think when I think of the ultra world, like, we forget, like, it's so new, the idea of this being a competitive landscape. And to the extent that people are like, well, this is how you train for 100. And this is how you do it. It's like, is it? You know, like, I think like we're at the very beginning of trying to figure out what the best way to approach these kind of races are. And that's what makes people like David Roche so interesting. You know, like, they're trying different things and like, who knows what's going to pan out or not. But like, he's sort of approaching it like a scientist in a lab. And I think that's really, and sharing it transparently, which I think is really cool. So much respect to him for sharing everything publicly. It's like, and that's like in the at the 100-mile range. But, you know, then you get to the, like, I think people equate these things like, oh, 50, 100, 200, it's all the same. Like, these things are wildly, you know, the universe is apart. And I think when it comes to like the distances that you're excelling at, like, this is just, you know, the wild west right now. Yeah. I was out to dinner the other night with some friends and Molly Seidel was there. And I never met her before. For people don't know, she won the bronze medal in the Olympics in 2020. And she's now like, you know, like moving into the ultra world. And to me, that's super exciting. Like, I think that when you start to see, you know, Olympic gold, Olympic medalists and like, you know, people who are like, you know, in the in the top, top, top of the kind of international marathon world, decide to move into the ultra world, we're going to see a lot of innovation and a lot of records being broken because they're bringing, you know, kind of an elite legacy into a world that's really untapped right now. Yeah. And she, I mean, props to Molly just earning a golden ticket at I think her second ultra race ever. So she'll be in Western states, the most competitive 100 miler in the US. Yeah. Super excited for her. I've met her before she's an amazing human being. And yeah, I would love to see more of those kind of higher profile people coming into trade. I mean, it's great for the sport and trail running is booming. I mean, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like trail running and ultra running is growing at a 100% maybe any sport out there right now. Yeah. What do you foresee for the future near and far in the sport? Just the sport generally, not yourself in it, but like, where is this, where is this heading? In terms of like, is the popularity going to continue to grow? Do you think like you're going to see more? I mean, it seems to me like there's going to be more money coming in. We already see what happened with UTMB. Like that's going to continue. And as soon as there's more money there, more of the Molly Seidel's are going to, like if you're on the, if you're on the world marathon circuit and you're coming in, you know, eighth or 10th in these races consistently, you're like, I don't know, 10 minutes off the pace or whatever. Like, why not move? Like the the ultra world is like wide open for you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, as more eyes grow on the sport, you know, the brands are going to be forking over more money. We will get some of those athletes that are crossing over and we're starting to see it. So I envision the sport just growing as a whole. It's really is a very accessible sport. Like you can essentially do it in so many different places in the US and throughout the world. I mean, it's a worldwide sport. And yeah, I think also just a lot of people just really crave and have a desire to do hard things. And there's nothing more simple and challenging than just running really far. Yeah. All you need is a pair of shoes too. And now with these like, you know, these these these backyard ultra is and all these, you know, unique formats that are popping up and people designing their own challenges. Like there's no barrier to entry into this. And then like how I mean, there's, you know, the monster 300, there's a 300 mile rate. Like what are we going to say? I mean, I've heard people I've heard people talking about and I mean, it does kind of exist in this whole other world of ultra. Are you talking about doing 500? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, even so you can go, you can race the John Meart trail or, you know, the Pacific Crest trail like doing FKT is like, that's a whole nother world of ultra running that there's almost like there's people who do that that don't even really run races. They just are focused on setting records and setting times on like super long distance. I mean, in FKT can be any little route that's, you know, 20 miles up to, up to, you know, the Pacific Crest trail that's 3000 miles, you know. The amazing thing about your story is the fact that it's such an unlikely story. Like you've been living your whole life with this like reservoir of potential you had no idea about. And but for like a couple things that happened, you might have lived your entire life never going on a run or realizing that you have this capacity. And when you reflect on that, you can't help but think, well, how many, like is this something that is like how many millions or billions of people are walking around with capacities and capabilities that they're not aware of because they never are in a situation or presented with an opportunity to kind of do the math and, you know, like square that equation. Right. I think like, yeah, if you're a person who's listening or curious about ultra running or just running in general, like maybe you just like, maybe just try it, you know, maybe it could end up being that thing for you and or like, maybe it's not even running, maybe it's playing guitar or artwork or whatever. Like I just, I hope that people just like find something that they're into and just pour everything that they have into it. And I don't I think about this all the time, like back when I was younger, I used to think it was so cool seeing people who just like effortlessly were good at things. And I think now I have so much more respect for people who actually care and people who actually try hard and people who like fail at things over and over and over and they dedicate their lives to, you know, going back to maybe a race or whatever it is. But like, I really like watching and hearing stories of people just overcoming adversity and really trying hard. Like I thought it was so cool to like not care or not give a fuck about anything. But like nowadays, I'm like, I love people who like give a shit and like want to dedicate everything in their life to one specific pursuit. Like I think that is so sick and so cool. When you think about your life now and reflect upon, you know, where you were not that long ago, like it must just be mind blowing, astonishing. Yeah, it seems like almost an entire lifetime ago. Like I haven't had the urge or the thought of drinking or using in like a very long time. Like I was blessed with the gift of the obsession being lifted like quite a long time ago and it's never came back and I'm super grateful for that. I think there's something that people say that every 16 years or something like all of the cells in your body quite literally are replaced. So I really do feel like it was an entire lifetime ago and my life is so different now that I, you know, every year on my sobriety date, I do a lot of reflecting and I just try not to forget what it felt like that day before I got sober and like that's something that I always need to remember that this whole thing really is a daily reprieve and if I, you know, slip up and make the mistake of putting something in my body that can cause the allergy and the craving of alcoholism, like I'm right back to swear one and I don't ever want to go back there again. Like as much as my life is different today and I have so much to lose, I like I'm really one bad day away from being right back at square one, trying to get sober again and it's so much easier to just stay sober than to try to get sober again. I don't ever want to have to do that again. What do you say to the person who looks at you and says, well, you know, Max is different from me. Obviously, he's this gifted runner. I can see how he was able to pull himself up and, you know, from his bootstraps and change his life and, you know, become this runner. But like, I don't really see how I'm going to be able to make that change. Like, what have you learned about just the nature of change itself or the power that we all have to make in a significant life change? I mean, I felt the same exact way for a long time. There's no way that, you know, sitting in meetings listening to people tell their stories. It's like, well, yeah, like that's true for you, but I'm different, you know. Terminally unique. I'm terminally unique. I, you know, what you suffer from and what you feel in your head is like, just not what I'm feeling and I'm different. And just like, you know, I just would love to be an example like, I'm no different than anyone. Like, I'm not talented. I'm not special. I suffer from the same thing that like literally millions of other people suffer from. And, you know, there is a solution if you want it, as long as you're willing to do the work. And that's true for getting sober. That's true for, you know, getting good at anything like running. It's like, if you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve and you do put in the work, anything is possible. Yeah, that's the great thing about running. I mean, you said it earlier, like, if you put in the work, you see the results. And when you start seeing the results, then you feel more connected to it. And, you know, as we say in the rooms, like, you know, self-esteem is built on the shoulders of performing esteemable acts. And like going out and running is an esteemable act on behalf of yourself, right? You know what I mean? And the more you do that, the better you feel about yourself. And then you see that progress and you want to do more. These things, and it doesn't have to be running. It can be whatever, you know, whatever your curiosity is fascinated by. That's almost exactly the inverse of the more I drink, the worse my life gets. The worse my life gets, the more I drink and use and do drugs. And the more I do drugs, the worse my life gets. So, it's exactly that same thing. But you don't understand my problem, Max. And when I wake up in the morning, it's so bad that I have to drink, you know? And then there goes the cycle around and around and around. On a mindset level, I've heard you say like, you're, you know, like, you're just a never quit guy, right? Like, how do you think about mindset and what are some of the ways that you try to, you know, foster a growth mindset? Yeah, the never quit mindset. I mean, that's a tough thing. I almost invested too much of like my identity into being someone that's like, never going to quit or going to die before I quit. And then when I'm finally presented with a situation during a race where I'm like, quite literally about to die, you know, at mile 238 of a 250 mile race and I have, you know, and endless amount of problems going on with me and people around me are very scared for me in my life. And I have to make that hard decision of like letting my ego go and like, okay, this race is over, I'm going to drop, I'm going to have to quit this race and I'm going straight to the hospital, which is what happened to me at Coca Dona last year. It's kind of like changed my perspective. And I've kind of let go of the, like, I'm not like invincible. I'm really not that tough. Like, and, you know, I'd rather, rather just fight another day, you know, like we all, you know, have these situations and points within races or any part of our life where like today is just not the day and I've experienced that. And I now look back and think like, Oh, I was a little bit naive to think that there's never going to be a situation where I'm ever going to give up. But I think for the most part, like, I try not to make quitting an option. And I think that just kind of goes back to just sobriety. There was like, like drinking and I had to, in my head, make it like absolutely mandatory that I was never going to use again, like no matter what. And with running, maybe I just tried to borrow that philosophy with racing, like I'm just never going to quit when, in reality, like there are going to be situations where you quit. And as much as I would have loved to have gone my entire career, never having quit or dropped from a race, it's like, I'm doing some of the hardest races in the world. Like it's bound to happen. Yeah, of course. Right. But that binary is helpful, especially in the early days. Like the when you're in the room, it's like, it's very clear, like you're either sober or you're not. I was like, there's no gray area, but life is full of grays. But when you get into running and you're like, okay, well, I'm going to use that rule that works so well for me in this context and apply it over here, there's value in that initially. But then as you grow and evolve, you have to amend these rules. And I think a lot of that just boils down to ego. It all comes down to ego. So when you mentioned doing inventories, when you are doing whether it's a daily inventory or more formal inventory, what are the patterns that continue to kind of recur that trip you up, that you know that you still need to work on? I think a lot of it just has to do with patience, you know, having patience with people. A lot of it has to do with, you know, fear, like I may react a certain way because I'm just I'm just afraid of people not liking me or, you know, things not working out. Or yeah, just like getting angry over stupid shit, you know, I think just like having real human emotions that all of us have. And like I, it's like I am so a product of my parents, like I see the things that I suffer from are like character flaws that have just been passed down to me and like me being impatient or me, you know, getting angry or upset or just all of those things are just I mean almost a part of my genetics. And at least, you know, being aware and cognizant of those things and addressing them when they happen and immediately like trying to figure out, okay, what's the part that I played in this? Like, where was I wrong? Let me, you know, fix this, whether it's, you know, an apology, like I always try to and it's almost like I am a confrontational person, but I will like if anything happens or comes up, I will immediately like try to squash it and, you know, fix things like yeah, I just a human being like everyone else like I have, I have, I'm not perfect. How's the imposter syndrome going? Oh, God, I mean, yeah, I definitely have it. That surprises people when you, because you're very, you're, you're, you talk about it a lot. I don't know. I think I came up in an era when like self promotion and self glorification was like very frowned upon, you know, and I think, I don't know, I'm just like so hyper critical of myself and almost kind of like my own worst enemy and like another thing with, you know, just shit that comes at me online, it's like nothing that anyone can say is like any worse than what I actually feel about myself. I am very self deprecating and feel like I'm not good enough and I'm not enough and, you know, that's just, you know, a pattern of thinking that's just existed within me for a long time and, you know, work in progress to feel any different. But yeah, the, I mean, I feel like, I don't know, I think a lot of it boils down to like, I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that maybe don't respect me or my accomplishments or don't want to give me the credit that I feel like I deserve and that's okay. You know, I'm like not running the most competitive races in the world. Like I'm just like carving my own path and doing stuff that intrigues me and I really actually don't like competing. Like I don't like the racing, I don't like the competitiveness of it. I just like really crave the challenge and it's really easy to find the challenges within these races, especially like that super, super long distance stuff. Like you're not racing against anyone else anyway in those races. Dude, I think the Barkley Marathons is the sickest race ever because none of the people are racing against each other. They're racing against the race. It's like no one wins. It's just finishers, you know? Like I love that. I just really crave the challenge and yeah, it's like I see shit that people say about me online and maybe I shouldn't even ever look at any of it. I think you keep coming back to this thing. I think that's where your work is. Like finding a way to detach from all of that because obviously this is like agitating you, you know? This thing and it has nothing to do with you. It's just other stuff but it's running a lot of space in your mind. But I'm aware of it and it's like somehow it just always seems to get to me. So I mean, but it's all good. I mean, I'm grateful for everything. I know I'm just like only getting better. I'm only making progress and I'm like not even close to where my potential could be. I think you're just beginning. But I think to the extent that you have some degree of imposter syndrome or have an attachment to being perceived in a certain way, like these are all human traits obviously. But at the same time, you have to have incredible self-belief to toe the line at a race like Moab and say like, you know, I'm in the hunt for this thing or, you know, like I have a chance to win this thing. Like those two things are in conflict with each other. I mean, this is a very kind of like alcoholic trait. And it's interesting how they can cohabitate with each other. Like I'm an imposter. They're going to come and tell me, like, you know, we figured you out at the same time thinking like, I'm going to win this fuck race. You know what I mean? Because I'm better than these guys. You know what I mean? It's insane. Like how does that work? Yeah. I mean, hating yourself, but thinking that you're the go at the same time. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, that's alcohol. That's the ism of alcoholism is the ego and self-obsession. And yeah, it's, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah. What's the key race this year? What are you focused on? I'm really excited to go back to Coca-Cola and just get a finish out there. I just got so close last year that I really want to cross the finish line. That's like my main goal and objective of that race. But then a couple months after that, I'm running Badwater 135. Yeah. Which is exciting and challenge. Yeah. Yeah. But you are somebody who does well in the heat. Yeah. So this is playing your strengths. Some of my best performances. And it's pavement. Yeah. It's a road. I'm okay at road running. Yeah. How are you changing your training to make sure that you're ready for that race? So, I mean, I'm lucky that I live here in Southern California and Death Valley is really only like a four hour drive. So I'm actually just planning on spending a bunch of time out there. Like I'm unemployed now. I don't have a job. So I can quite literally. You do have a job. Yeah. You don't have a job. Yeah. I don't have a corporate job. I mean, yeah, this is my job. Right. Impostors in the room again. But no, I just plan on going out there a bunch this year and just doing a ton of training out there, especially in the summer once it starts to heat up. But yeah, that's a really exciting race that's intrigued me for a really long time. I think I first found out about that race watching Sally McCray win it back in God, what was that 21-22? When I first kind of started discovering ultra races and I grew up going out to Death Valley and doing camping and Boy Scout stuff as a little kid out there. So just having a connection with that area and then being able to race my way into the race, like winning Shawna Bryan, which got me a ticket into AC 100 and then I win AC 100, which got me a ticket into Badwater. So it's kind of been this cool progression of races to get me there. But I do really well in the heat. I've actually been working with Satisfye to help create some heat specific product that I'll be wearing for the, I mean, it'll be coming out and I'll be wearing it for the first time at Badwater. It's been like a really- This is the response to the Nike ACG mesh shirt that, what's his name more at Western States last year? It's a bit different. I mean, that's kind of one item, but this is like a full kit. I mean, when you see people at Badwater just like how everyone's decked out in white sleeves, I don't want to give away too much of what the product is. Like white beekeeper suits. Yeah, everyone's just all kitted out in everything white just because it's so hot and the sun is so harsh. But it was a really cool opportunity getting to work with them and present them with like, hey, this is like, I live in this area where I'm running all these like super hot races. It would be really cool and fun to develop some heat specific products and presented the idea to them. They worked on creating some stuff, semi-prototypes. I've been wear testing them. And then we were just in South America and shot the campaign for all the stuff. So it was a really cool kind of full circle moment and I'll be able to wear and race and use the product at Badwater this year. So that's been like really fun and exciting. And you're putting the treadmill and the sauna like some of these guys have over the years. I think Harvey Lewis used to do that. So I have a, I have like a stair climber machine, a stepper stair climber machine in my garage. And in the summer, my garage will get like 85 to 90 degrees. So I'll do that. And then I saw David Roche doing all his heatsuit training. So I just bought like this Tyvek painters heatsuit and cut the feet off of it. So I'll do the stair climber with the heat suit on in the summer. That's kind of like one way that I'm doing active heat training, but I'm also like toying with ideas of like, do I build like a tent in my backyard and get like a cheap little treadmill or a bike trainer and just throw my bike and some heaters in this thing and be able to do some active heat. I just feel so bad going to the gym and being like that guy in the sauna that's like doing squats or lunges or something. It's just like kind of obnoxious. So I'll do the, you know, the passive heat training in the sauna at the gym. And then I'll do, you know, the active heat training in the garage. Maybe I'll, you know, do another, but like my whole year this year is very focused on like building durability and volume in heat training. Cause all my races this year, coconut is tip. I mean, not last year was freezing cold, which was a freak year, but usually coconut is a very hot race, bad water, hottest race in the world. And then AC 100 right here on the San Gabriel's is typically very hot. They did move the race from August to October going forward. So hopefully it'll be a little bit more mild temperatures, but I mean, last year when I won it, it was over a hundred degrees during the day. So have you met David Roche? No, I haven't. You got to talk to this guy. You guys should, I'm a fan. Compare notes. I'm a fan. Yeah. What is a day in the life of training now that you're, you know, liberated from having like any kind of day job and you can just focus on this? Yeah, I still feel like weirdly, like I'm still as busy. I got, you know, quite a few things going on in the works where I'm working on some co labs and doing some freelance stuff and working on building my personal brand. So as much as I thought that I was, you know, I got like up for my job and I was like, I'm just going to run 200 miles a week now. Didn't really work out like that, nor would that be a smart thing to do. But yeah, my mornings are typically wake up, have a coffee, chill with my dogs, maybe take them for a run four to five miles and then have a little bite to eat, maybe hop on a collar too and then do a midday run, maybe 10 to 15 miles. So trying to hit 15 to 20 miles a day. Also my fiance, Mackenzie, she's a personal trainer, so I've been getting into the gym with her quite a bit more now that, you know, I don't have to be in the office at 8am. I can, you know, two to three days a week in the mornings, go work out with her. And then yeah, just getting to travel and run pretty much any race that I want anywhere in the world has been super cool and fun and exciting. And just last weekend, going to Austin Marathon and running Austin Marathon was super fun. So yeah, just kind of getting to do whatever I want and really focused on getting all of the training in with a lot less distractions has been really nice. How many miles did you run the week leading up to the Austin Marathon? This probably wasn't smart, but I like, I didn't really plan on racing the race. I kind of was just going into it. That was more like, you're there for this brand and it's a bunch of dudes or we're going to hang out. Oh, and there happens to be a marathon. And I haven't been doing a ton of marathon specific training like I'm training for Coca-Cola. And you're not like on the track throwing down like intervals, are you? Like speed work and stuff like that, are you? I had been a little bit here and there. I do know that that is still a very important part of ultra training. Being in the best shape that you can and being as fast as you can is great running shape. So I do, I try to be consistent with throwing in speed workouts and doing longer tempo and threshold workouts, which I kind of had been doing because I was toying with the idea of running a surf city marathon, which is in Huntington. It's around the same time as the Austin Marathon, but BPN had reached out and they were like, Hey, we're, I mean, they're the main sponsor of the Austin Marathon. They were like, Hey, a couple of you athletes, like we want you to come out. If you want to run the race, cool. If not all good. And I was like, I'll just like jump into the full, use it as a training run for a Antelope Island 50 miler, which is another race I got coming up in March. But yeah, I didn't even know what I was going to do up until the morning of the race. Like I was like, should I, should I run hard or should I just cruise or should I be like a pacer for like a two, four? I thought I was going to run like maybe two 45 or something. Um, I didn't know what kind of shape I was in. I haven't raced a road marathon in over a year. I mean, hadn't specifically trained for a road marathon or PR'd in over three years. So I, yeah, I just ended up showing up to the start line and my friend, Matt Lanahan, teammate of mine on Satisfy, he just ran a Olympic trials qualifier at CIM in December and I was out there. And during the race, I thought it was so cool. He just, he set his watch to time of day mode and just didn't pay any attention to any splits. Didn't look at his heart rate, just nothing, just ran what he felt like was sustainable for him on that day and was right there with the lead pack and ran his personal best and OTQ'd. I was like so stoked for him. And I thought that was like so sick and cool. So at Austin marathon, I was like, I'm just going to do what Matt did. I'm just going to set my watch to time of day mode and use this run as just a solid, steady, hard run workout and ended up PR'ing the race. Yeah. Well, that is, that is sort of a surrender lesson also. Like, I'm just here, I'm going to be present for the experience and, you know, let it tell me what it wants to be or whatever. And relax. Yeah. And whatever my fitness is today is what it is. So just, you know, do that. I don't need to overreact. Which is the opposite, sort of an antidote to the kind of fitness culture, like optimization, like obsession that people have, like, you know, with every little metric being dialed in and, you know, athletes at your level, like, you have that connection with your body. Like, you know what it feels like, you know what you're capable of and, like, you don't need to be dependent upon all of these things because there's, like, intuit, like, there's a, there's a integration, you know. And sometimes it is just better to listen to your body and to run intuitively and just give the best that you can on that day. Like, the numbers don't really matter. So you must have been happy with a 234. Oh, I was stoked. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was, I had no idea. I, you know, the only split that I saw was when I crossed the, there was a timer at the halfway point and I saw 117 40 something and I was like having flashbacks of CIM where I went out too fast and ran, you know, a 116 half and just absolutely blew up in the second half. And awesome. Arathon isn't known for being a PR course. Like it's 1000 feet of gain and on, like, on the day it was like 20 mile an hour. It was like super windy. So the conditions were not ideal. The course was not ideal. And I saw my split at the halfway point and I was like, Oh, no, here it comes. I'm going to blow up. And you're hanging out with the VPN guys. You're probably like, they're making you like lift weights. We were lifting weights the day before, but to get back to your, what was my training the week? So the week before I ran out 146 mile week. And 146 miles of the week leading before Austin, before Austin. Yeah. Just because I was more focused on the 50 miler that was coming up and I was like, Oh, the rate like running the marathon doesn't really matter. I'm probably not going to PR anyway. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to keep my volume up and use the race as a hard run workout and ended up running also 100 miles of the week of the race of the race ended on Saturday. So I ended up finishing the week with 100 miles. And then this last week I ran another 100 miles. So I'm like really just focused on like the ultra training and just keeping high volume and keeping my mileage up and building the durability and doing tons of heat. I mean, dude, we were out there sitting in Nick's sauna and the sauna at the BPN HQ and that those are like the hottest son is in the world like 200 degree over 200 degrees, just absolutely cooking in there. But yeah, it was a really fun and amazing trip. And I honestly just had no expectations going into the race. I just kind of sent it for fun and I feel and had a great result. Going into the season. What is motivating all of this? What is the source of your motivation? Do you have a sense of what that is? Like what's the animating energy behind all of it for you? I think just the desire to push myself to whatever this potential is that I have and just my desire to do hard things. Like I just love training and I love the process of prepping for a race and I love putting in the work and as much as I don't love a lot of aspects of the competitiveness of races, I do love the adventure of races. I think it just really boils down to I just like a challenge. I just like doing hard things and I like pushing myself and I like seeing the tangible results of my hard work, which is what you can get if you put in the work and race really hard and pour your heart and soul into this thing. Like if you put in the work, you will get results. When are you getting married? June. And she's like your crew captain. She's the essential team member in this whole thing. She's like kind of like my coach, my strength and conditioning coach. I was going to ask you like you don't have a proper coach. No, but I'm like I'm very obsessed with training and product and I'm always learning things and I just see like it's pretty easy to see what a lot of elite athletes are doing and it's really not that hard to research training philosophy and I just like I do a lot of research and I just kind of like copy what a lot of people do and borrow workouts from people and I know the recipe and the formula. Maybe I don't have a lot of the structure that maybe like the day-to-day structure that maybe having a coach would give me, but I don't know. I also think it's I'm pretty good at listening to my body and knowing what I need to do and you know, someone can lay out a plan for you, but you still need to like be able to show up every day and execute that plan and I think I'm you know, I can create a decent plan for myself and just do it on my own. As we're coming to the end here, obviously you're this incredible avatar example of the power of changing your life. Like you've made these dramatic changes in your life and it's just this incredible 180 turnaround. What can you share about what you've learned about the capacity we all have to make changes in our lives? I think everyone has the potential to do amazing things and a lot of times it's just really hard to take that first step to you know, start on a path of pursuing you know, a crazy dream that you might have or just dedicating everything in your life to one specific thing. I love people who are just obsessed and just truly dedicated to whatever it is. I mean, it could be running, it could be surfing or skating or artwork or any other thing, but I think everyone has the ability to do amazing things, but it's just sometimes a little bit difficult to find what that thing is for you and also to have the knowledge and the awareness to really lean into that thing when you do discover it, which is kind of just what I've found with this whole running journey. But yeah, aside from that, I don't know, I just feel insanely grateful to be able to live this life and share my story and inspire people. That's the most satisfying thing that I get from putting out content and running races and telling stories is when I hear people say that like, oh, this inspired me to lose weight or this inspired me to get into running and I love running and it's a part of my life now, like that's where I get maybe some of the most satisfaction in my life and something that I'm kind of like most grateful for that I've kind of discovered on this weird crazy journey. And what is the message that you want to say to the kid Max who is sitting in a jail cell in 2012, knowing what you know now? Man, just hold on tight, stick with it, put in the work as long as you just do the right thing and continue on the right path and try to better yourself, everything will work out and good things will come. Yeah, I mean, when I reflect on your story, there's just no way that you can script this. When you're that kid in jail back then, if you told that kid like, hey, one day, it's like, what are you even talking about? So the notion of even like, well, set a goal and work towards it and this is how it's like, it's not even that, it's like bigger and more mystical and magical than that. Like by you just doing the next right thing, like taking a contrary action and then the next right action after that and repeating that and repeating that and repeating that, your life, the trajectory of your life, you know, starts to alter and then it leads you to these little opportunities that you say yes to and you make these little discoveries and then you wake up one day and you're like winning ultra like you're living a life that like you just, it wouldn't even like compute to that person. So to me, what I gather from that is like hope and possibility. Like no matter how far down the path you have gone, right? Like there is always the opportunity for hope and possibility. If you can just do the next right thing in front of you to do magical things can happen and you're this incredible example of that. Like it's the most unlikely story and yet here you are sitting across from me and in my mind, like you're just at the very beginning of this incredible journey that you're on. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And just stay the path, focus on today. All we have is today. So yeah, I'm just going to keep putting in the work and doing my thing and hopefully good things will come. Well, I'm a fan and keep making like awesome, you know, content docs and all of that. It really is cool. Thank you. I'm trying. I really appreciate it a lot and I think when you do that, everyone else sees it and then they have to up their game and it's just up leveling the quality and the caliber of, you know, what's available to the public to like be inspired and learn about, you know, these subcultures and these, you know, ways of life. So thank you for that. Yeah, man. All right. Well, come back and share more adventures from the trails. Yeah, sweet. All right. Thank you. Peace.