When the Wellness Narrative Breaks: Truth, Discernment & Women's Safety

On this episode of the Resetter podcast, I'm bringing you something really unique. I have never done this before. This podcast was actually, I called it this morning, my dear friend, Dr. Sarah Cizal, because of the current events that are going on, not only in the world, but in the wellness space. and I wanted to have a chat with her about a prominent wellness expert that was mentioned 1,800 times in the Epstein files. This is a person who is in our space and it really showed a light on the bro culture that exists in the wellness world. And I've been watching all the comments. I've been watching people take in this information. For those of you who don't know who I'm talking about, I'm talking about Dr. Peter Atiyah. It is of no surprise. Dr. Deepak Chopra was also mentioned in the Epstein files. And as I was watching the comments over the last couple of days, I saw, I responded to a post and a woman came in and said, how do we find wellness experts with integrity. And I thought that's got to be a really confusing question when 95% of health advice is now found on social media. How do you know if the person you're receiving health advice from has integrity and you should be listening to them and you should be taking their advice? Let me know if this is an issue for you. And so I called my dear friend, Dr. Sarah Cizal, and I asked her to unpack this with me. So in this conversation, you're going to hear a little bit of a behind the scenes. Think of it like we've pulled the veil back so that you can see what it's like to put wellness and health information out on social media right now. Sarah and I both talk about many people that you know, podcasters you know, YouTubers that you know, our experiences with them and how you can spot some of this bro culture and its disingenuous ways. So that's the first part of this conversation. Then we went into the patriarch, which I just want to point out the patriarch isn't men over. The patriarch is a system that has powerful influence on us. And right now, the social media system has a powerful influence over how you receive health information. So we talked about how do you navigate that system? How do you know where to find information that works for you? So that's the second part of the conversation. Now, I wanna tell you don't click off because the third part of the conversation, Dr. Sarah brought something up that I love. She said, I'm looking to have conversations with regulated humans. And we went into what is it like to feel dysregulated? How can you spot if somebody is regulated? And what can we do to come together and understand how to collectively regulate ourself? It's really interesting conversation and we end on play and pleasure for women you're not going to want to miss that part so it's a really dense conversation it's really timely if you're confused as to how to navigate the terrain of the wellness world on social media i hope you find some light and some inspiration in this conversation so dr saris is all let's all dive in to getting the best information off of social media for you. This is an emergency podcast. It was called This Morning, and I really appreciate you responding to me, Sarah, and I just am so excited to have this conversation with you. Me too. I mean, I love the conversations that are recorded and unrecorded, and I'm always happy to heed the call and be with you. Yeah. So before we dive into the task at hand, which is how do we navigate wellness information? What do we need to know about the bro wellness culture? I think a big thing I want to talk about is how do we understand that when online spaces are safe for us and when are they not? And I really, I actually, and you haven't even really heard me say this. I just want to call out that so many women, as you know, have been sexually abused. And through my work over the last couple of years, especially with psychedelics, I have come to an understanding that I didn't have, which was I was molested by my pediatrician and that I was raped by a white privileged frat boy in college. And both of those I thought were my fault. And I understand now that a lot of women, the number of conversations I've had with women about sexual abuse, about being objectified, it seems to be permeating the culture. And so as we move forward in this conversation, I just want to acknowledge that everybody is safe here, and you are not alone. And it's important that we bring this very difficult conversation forward, but know that both Sarah and I see and hear you. I so appreciate you starting there, Mindy, because you're right. I mean, we know that 70% of women by age 18 have experienced significant trauma, and the rates of sexual abuse are much higher in women and girls than they are in men. And it's an important place to begin, rather than all the allegations, all the emails, all of the rabbit holes that you can go on in Epstein files because we want to regulate. We are so good at regulating each other. You're so great at regulating your audience and co-regulating. And for me, that's a big part of the safety in this conversation is that we're not looking for clickbait. We're not looking to grab headlines here. We're trying to really get to the root of it and understand what does this mean about our culture? Where do we go from here? Yeah. I think safety is a really interesting word that I want to bring through this whole conversation. And I actually met with my team this morning and said, I'd like to do a whole series next week on social media about what does it look like to stay safe on social media when you're consuming information. And because it's a new place that women have to think about safety. You know, we used to be like, what is it like to stay safe at a party or in a, you know, I think, I think we've all been in parking garages that felt unsafe and we have learned how to navigate that situation. But I think we have a new issue, which is how do you stay safe? How does a woman stay safe on social media? And I think that's a really important conversation to be had. So, so anyway, so I'm looking forward to that piece. I want to start with Sunday because just for people listening, this is being recorded on Wednesday. And Sunday I was heading out to surf and my husband said to me, Peter Attia is in the Epstein files. And I'm going to tell you my first reaction. I'm very curious your first reaction because it may be completely different. My first reaction was, really? Like I thought he was one of the good guys. Now, I want to tell you, I haven't interacted with him. I've never been on his podcast. So this is me looking out from the outside in. And I want to tell you that the reason I thought he was one of the good guys is because he was good looking. He was strong. He talked about his wife a lot. I actually, you know, interacted with a celebrity who I won't say her name, but who told me she was a patient as his. and I just, I don't know, his vibe gave me some kind of understanding that he was one of the good guys. And when I came home from surfing, I decided before I judged him, I would dive into it. And the two comments that just hung me was the low carb comment. And I was like, that's locker room talk. Like, what would he do if somebody was talking about his daughters like that? and then your life is so outrageous, and I can't tell anybody. Who did he want to tell? Who did he want to tell that this guy is a pedophile? So it started to really hit me in a raw place, and I was lost, and I was frustrated, and I was angry, and then I saw your post, and I'm going to hand it over to you there because I was so upset, And I was looking for direction. And maybe you could talk a little bit about your reaction and your post, because it was the leadership I was looking for at that moment. Thank you for sharing that, Mindy. And I came to it on Sunday a little differently than you. I don't know Peter Atty at all. I have no personal relationship. I've never met him. there were for me some signs that I could track when you look for instance at pretty much any of his podcasts I don't want to generalize too much but I feel like there's a way that he becomes so pedantic and goes I I really appreciate the rigor But for me, listening to him, I can only tolerate it in doses like I can tolerate his podcast for about 30 minutes and then I need a break because it just feels kind of intellectually exhausting to follow along his threads. So there's that piece. Another piece is that he's got a few sound bites on 60 Minutes on his podcast with Rachel Rubin, where he talks about the Women's Health Initiative being one of the worst things that has ever been, has ever happened to women. And while I agree with that statement, what I noticed, and this is a bit, it's a bit of subtext and also kind of reading between the lines. I think this is helpful, though. This is how people, this is what I want people to understand. This is how you spot somebody. So keep going. Yes. Right. Yeah. Well, if you listen to the Rachel Rubin podcast, as I was listening to it, I felt like he was talking over her. she was the expert he's a guy who didn't finish his general surgery residency right and he was mansplaining the women's health initiative hormone therapy menopause and basically asking her to agree with them. That didn't, it just didn't feel right to me. Now I know hindsight is 20-20 and I'm just saying there were a few things that were confusing to me about his behavior. I also have mutual clients and patients who went to him for care and I didn't agree with the way that he was doing hormone therapy. So there's a lot of arrogance and certainty about the way that he takes care of patients. And I didn't find that at least the patients I was taking care of, and this is only anecdotal, a few patients, I didn't find that it matched. Yeah. So when I came into learning about this online on Sunday, I was at the airport. and I posted a thread. It's kind of funny how this came up. I posted a thread about GLP-1s and cognitive decline, and someone commented, you can still see it on threads, Hey, Dr. Sarah, are you going to prattle on about your usual stuff, or are you going to talk about Peter Atiyah today? This is important. It's really important. I got called out. Yeah. And I've been saying this to my staff all week. I'm like, we can't talk about fasting. We can't talk about blood sugar. I'll send you a YouTube live I did yesterday because I bragged all about you in it. And I was like, I'm supposed to come and talk and answer your blood sugar questions here on YouTube. I can't. I need to tell you what's on my heart. And the whole thing is about exactly this. I so appreciated this comment. Yeah, I do my best to read every comment. And I'm glad I do that because she was absolutely right. And what I was doing was what we're trained to do in medicine and we're trained to do in the patriarchy is to just kind of stay in your lane. Yep. And don't talk bad. Don't rock the boat. Don't criticize other colleagues. You know, let someone else do that, like the medical board. It's not up to you. And so, yeah, there I was prattling on about GLP-1s and cognitive decline. And I thought, you know, let me go to the Epstein files. I felt like I had the capacity for it. Yeah, so you and I both did. Yeah, I could only go so far, and then I just was nauseous. So I had to dose it. I mean, I felt like the emails and the comments were really overwhelming. They showed what felt to me to be the truth of someone who doesn't know that others are watching. And that made me commit to reading pretty much every one of the 1800 references to Peter Attia. So, you know, it's not how I wanted to spend my Sunday. But, and I also felt like I need to go to the primary source. Yeah. I'm not going to at that time, there were a bunch of articles that were, you know, not good media outlets with articles about Peter Tia. And I didn't trust them. So before saying anything or even getting a sense of what my response is, I wanted to go read the primary source myself. mm-hmm so that was my sunday and you know more recently i've been talking a lot about vaginal estrogen vaginal dhea vaginal testosterone and it especially felt to be tone deaf yes to be talking about that with this comment about you know female genitalia being low carb. So that's where I was on Sunday. You know, as I've sat with the Epstein information of the last couple of days, I think where I'm the most sad is how strong the patriarchal system is. It is interwoven into every fabric of our culture. And this ties into what you just said. If you look at the extent of harm that Jeffrey Epstein did to children and how he cover everybody involved, everybody who is benefiting from this horrific act had a path to covering it up. And everybody was in agreement that we need to cover it up. And where I've come to is suppression, that the patriarch only lives if somebody is in power and somebody is suppressed. And it's not just America. I mean, the other countries right now are standing up and saying, hey, if anybody in leadership is in those files, they're going to be dismissed from their leadership position. But we here in America are so gripping to that patriarchal system, we're willing to do anything to climb into the power structure. And I'm curious if we are ever going to be able to break free of that. I think that's what I'm the most sad about is that the patriarchal way, power, money, you know, look, sex, all of it is so strong that we're willing to harm children for it and cover it up. And so when I see the act of these women going on that podcast or I see these masculine women that are out there, you know, and I and there's nothing I'm not criticizing masculine women, but these women that are buying into the patriarchal energy. I see a systemic breakdown. And I honestly think the biggest thing I'm walking away from the Epstein files so far is how willing we are in this culture to allow people to be in positions of power. And we don't we don't want to know they're bad. We don't want to know what they've done. And now we're sitting at a place where children have been fucking harmed. Because we were gripping on to patriarchal power so much. So I agree with you. And I'm also a little upset because. Everybody saw the hit piece and then these women went on. Why can't we as women create our own power? Where do we go to create our own power? because we would do power together and we would do power within. And what's happening is we don't have an example of women in power, in a new system working together and coming together for the betterment of society. Well, that's what you and I have to build. Yeah, thank you. We are being called in this moment. And that's what we're doing in this podcast together. Yeah, thank you. It's such a, you know, I thank you for reaching out to me this morning and asking me to come talk with you. And we have to model it for millennials. And the Gen Z and the Gen Alphas You know I would say There another way into this You know, I think sometimes when we talk about patriarchy, some people like start to zone out. Agreed. So I just want to acknowledge that. Another way to think about it is look at. How. I'm a Gen Xer. I think you're a Gen Xer, too. I am. Yeah. Proud Gen Xers, but we're the ones who were like feral children. Yes, we were. Who like put up with the doctors telling us to go on a birth control pill or to take a sleeping pill or hear some Xanax when we were suffering. And we put up with that. Yep. And it's the millennials that are saying, oh, no, this idea that 75 percent of women are untreated for menopause. I'm not I'm not standing for that. Yeah. So we have to model a different way. I think that's really critical. Yeah. And Gen Xers are part of the patriarchy. And I think a big part of dismantling the patriarchy and realizing that we're the frogs in the pot of water that's being boiled slowly. We need men to help us. Yes. We need these regulated men. Regulated men. Yep. Men are in a mental health crisis right now with good reason. Like they're suffering in patriarchy, too. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And so we need it can't be just women that topple patriarchy. Like we've got to do it together. Yeah. And we've got to develop these models of shared power. Yeah. Like you do, Mindy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of like big examples of where you've seen women do that. I mean, here's what I think of. This is so funny. I don't know why this came to my head. It's like Lilith Fair. Yeah. Right. What was that? Sheryl Crow started that and brought all, I think she started or one of them did. Sarah McLachlan. Sarah McLachlan. The Luscious Jackson. Right. We're like going down Gen X memory lane here. Right. You start talking about Gen X. You know, it's funny. I don't know if you've ever done this, but we watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High with our children. And they were like, why are they talking like that? totally like oh god that was the that was the 70s 80s you were allowed to talk like that like it was so bad I mean both our daughter and son were like this is horrible the way they talk we're like yeah welcome to our childhood yeah there were no parents around no we were feral it's really true and and I just want to point out because I'm such a fan of you Sarah and I you were the first fucking woman that Andrew Huberman brought on his podcast. And I literally screamed when I saw that you were on that podcast. I was like, finally. And I just want to point out for people in my audience who may not know you, I also think you deserve the goddamn credit for being one of the OGs in the menopause doctor, author, you know, hormone space. Like you've been writing books forever before any of us came around. And like you were you were iconic in my mind. And yeah, they needed to bring you on. But they didn't. They finally brought you on. Peter never brought you on. He never he never gave you an invite. No. What? That was probably the universe looking out for me. But it's yeah, I appreciate that point. And, you know, one of the comments I got over the past few days was a guy who was saying. And, oh, are you? I said something about Peter Atiyah talking about women's health and how it felt like a yellow flag. And he said, oh, so you should never talk about men's health then. And, you know, it's it's it's a good point to discuss. But I would also say the research shows that if you're a man and you're having a heart attack and you go to the emergency room and you see a female physician or a male physician, your survival is the same. But if you're a woman and you go to the emergency room with a heart attack and you see a female physician versus a male physician, your survival is two to three times higher seeing a female physician. There are differences in how men and women take care of patients. Wow. So I take your point, and I don't want to talk about erections today. I don't either. I'll bring you back to talk about clitoral erections. That sounds great. I'll bring my puppet. Excellent. So let's talk a little bit about what I call or what is now being called, I shouldn't I didn't name it bro wellness. And I think every culture has a bro culture in it. But what I don't think people see is the how those of us like you and me who have big platforms, who have been speaking out, who have been trying to educate, get get get shut out of this bro wellness world. And so I want to just kind of talk a little bit about that, and I'll share it through my lens. And I've only shared this on a couple of podcasts. When I went on Stephen Bartlett for the first time, believe it or not, I had no idea it was such a big podcast. I was like, I think it's number one in the world. It was number one in the world at the time, and it may still be that. and I didn't know who he was and he came a calling and my team was like, you have to go. And I'm like, really? I don't want to get on a plane to go to New York. And they're like, you're going. And so I went. And when I sat in the chair across from him, I listened to one episode on the flight to New York. So I had some idea what was going on. And all of a sudden I sat across from him and I thought, oh, fuck, this is a really big deal. And I know you've been in Stephen's chair, You've been in Huberman's chair. And he kept me there for three and a half hours. When I got done, I wanted to say, and I love Stephen. I think Stephen is a wonderful, like from what I can tell, he's a very warm, wonderful human. And I said to him, I thought in my mind, you don't ever keep a menopausal woman interviewing her for three hours. hours. Like, I could barely tell you what my name was after that. I like, what did you strangle him for that? I mean, he's in his 30s. Right. We love Stephen, but we do love Stephen. I mean, give us a snack at least. Let us do some burpees, you know? Like, if you want the brain flow to still be going to the cerebellum and the, the, uh, rest of the brain, like three hours in that chair. Way too long. So I don't know, around two and a half hours, um, he starts asking me about fasting for men. And, um, I, I don't claim to know as much about the male body as I do about the female body. So I made a comment and I said, fasting increases testosterone in men, a 24 hour fast by 1300%. Now I want to point out, it was a misquote. The quote, what I, the research showed that growth hormone, growth hormone increases that much. Yeah. Increases. And, and you, you, you tell me, but growth hormone is a precursor to many other hormones now. So I wasn't like completely egregious. And you can call me out if I was. But it was a slip of hormone at hour two. Yeah, totally. Totally. When the when the podcast came out about a weekend, I was bullied like I've never been bullied before in my life. And I'm going to call my bully out right now. We're going to call a couple bullies out because it was the most painful thing I've experienced as an adult. It's Lane Norton. And he said, this woman's a fraud and a liar. And for the next two weeks, the bro culture poured into my DMs on every single platform and said the most horrific things to me. My children came to me and said, Mom, you're on TikTok. You're all over TikTok. They're making fun of you. The bro culture came after me in one of the biggest ways. And I wanted to go and say, hey, y'all, two and a half hours in. I met growth hormone. I'll show you the link. But everybody in my universe said, shut your mouth. Because if you keep speaking up, you're only going to fuel this. Um, Huberman was tagged in it. Um, Thomas Dayalauer was tagged in it, um, in these posts and they all laughed and made fun of me. Hmm. And, um, I was crushed. It was the beginning of me feeling like, do I really want to play this game? I don't, I'm, I don't know if I want to play this game. Lane Norton came after me for over a year. he he he texted over and over and over again things to me and dms and about a year later one day he put up a post that was a picture of a beautiful set of boats in in florida that he was looking out at and he said good morning everybody i hope everybody has a nice day this is a year after the incident. I hope everybody has an amazing day except chiropractor at Dr. Mindy Pels, who thinks fasting increases male hormone by 1300%. That was the day I blocked him. I've never witnessed that level of bullying. And it was the first time I saw how deep this bro wellness culture goes. Yeah. And I didn't I don't know. I'm not saying this from a wound because I've spent a lot of time, you know, trying to understand why it hit me so hard. I'm more saying it from and I'm curious your opinion on this. Like, I'm just here trying to get a message out. And I'm sorry at our at our two to 30 that I misquoted quoted your hormone. Your fucking hormone that you're so attached to. And now you're going to make my life hell for a year. And you're going to pull all the other bros into this. Sarah, I met I still go to conferences where women are like, oh, I saw that. How are you doing? Yeah. Oh, there's so much to unpack here. And I've had, you know, I've tracked Lane Norton for a lot of years, and I've actually learned some things from him that I found to be helpful. Like I bought some of his content maybe back in 2018. You know, my hope with how we tend to people and how we grow our tribe and how we support the difficult experiences of others is that we're able to give people grace. We're we own our mistakes and move on and not let people who are somehow suffering in some major way and therefore need to take down others as a way to prop themselves up and shame others. I just I don't agree with that approach. Yep. And, you know, for him to carry that poison in a system for so long. You know, I saw someone post today about how when you've got haters like this and bullies, you just have to say a prayer and move on. It's beautiful. Yeah. So I, you know, I don't. I don't know that that really helps because. You're someone of character. You're someone who understands science. And I just don't agree with these takedowns that occur. You know, what's interesting is my first reaction was, well, let me pull them onto my podcast and let's talk about it. Yeah. Let's have a conversation about it. Let's have a conversation. That's the mature way to be able to resolve something like that. Yeah. Not to post a bunch of videos and to be nasty. Yeah. Well, it was later revealed to me that and this goes back to the bro culture, that when you're a rising star, they want your audience. And I think this is something I really want to bring forward. And you and I should chat about this so that everybody just – I think my goal today is to sort of pull back the veil of what it's like to put health information out there as women. But, you know, when we go on Jay Shetty and when you go on Mel – we go on Mel Robbins. We've both been on those podcasts. You know, there's an understanding that we're melding audiences. And I say this all the time. I'm not sitting in this position that I have with this audience. I didn't get here by myself. Stephen Bartlett gave me a break. It was actually a lot of men. Lewis Howes gave me a break. Jay Shetty gave me a break. Like people brought me on to a bigger platform, and then I got more exposure. And so then people could decide if they like or not like. So I don't feel like I sit here like these are my people and this is my information. It's like I had some really interesting conversations with a lot of people where we were melding audiences. And that's really what you're doing when you have an audience and you're being brought on to a podcast. Is there wanting your audience? And I just want to say this because I don't know if women realize this. The most profitable audience is women between 45 and 65 because we have problems and we have money and everybody wants your attention. So when they bring Sarah and I on, they're wanting to have conversations, but mostly they're wanting your eyeballs. Or largely, I should say. It's such a good point. Yeah, I don't think that gives – I mean I walk around like I can't say I have 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube. I didn't do that on my own. I had a lot of people help me. I had a lot of assistance, and I do want to say a lot of those people were men, good men. So I think there's – we have to understand the wellness world has become a bit of a popularity game. And if you have whoever has the most women wins. Yeah, we want to hear your voice so that we can sell to them. Well, it's it's a good point, because. I feel like in the best of all worlds, we are melting these audiences and there's a lot of synergy. Right. So people are learning about you that didn't know about you before. you're having guests on your podcast, you're paying it forward and introducing those people who maybe have a smaller platform than you to their content. So the melting, I think, can be used for good. Agreed. Or it can be used not for good, which feels like more the what you're describing with the bro culture. I have a lot more to say about the bro culture, But I think the, you know, this idea of bullying or the takedown of someone, I mean, I think there's a time and a place for holding someone accountable. Yeah. And it sounds to me like you were totally willing to say, I made a mistake. I said testosterone. I meant growth hormone. It was, you know, hour 2.5 in the three hour podcast. you owned it, a takedown is not necessary. Yeah. And that way of melding audiences, of like going after your audience with these sensational thumbnails and viral hooks, that's not being used for good. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about what else you see with the bro culture before we move on because I'm also troubled by why all the podcasts that are in the biggest places are men. And I'm also curious if you have any sense of why it took Huberman so long to bring you on and why he may even called you there. I do want to say in that interview, I was getting an IV when I was listening to it. I think I've told you this. And when you said, well, it was like 80% of women have constipation. And he was like, really? Why? And you were like, because of the patriarch, I literally stood up. And I was like, yes, she said it. Walk us through that. Well, I got a lot of flack for that. Did she just say that constipation is caused by the patriarchy? No, I'm saying living in the patriarchy does not help your transit time. Yes. Especially if you, for women, you know, our guts much longer, our intestines are like another 10 feet. Let's fact check that. All the bros out there. It's more torturous. And so having a lot of tension, a lot of stress, a lot of cortisol coursing through your veins can affect your transit time. But going back to bro culture, I mean, Mel Robbins is an exception. She's got a huge podcast. She's right up there with Stephen Bartlett. And when I was on her podcast, she probably said this to you, too. She was like, stay in charge of your podcast. Make sure that, you know, it's 100 percent owned by you. Don't sell out. Don't partner with another platform. Like keep the control for yourself It really important in our culture I mean I in the longevity space And what I see with bro longevity is this fixation on living longer and living better for oneself Right? Like, how high can I get my VO2 max? How much can I increase my grip strength and maintain it as I get older? Here's the events that I want to compete in for the Centennial Olympics, the Centennial Decathlon. And there's much less of a focus on connection, which is such a critical part of longevity. So critical. So, yeah, I have a lot to say about bro culture. What I see. And I'm not going to name names here, but you can just imagine as I mentioned this idea, there's this issue that a Stanford professor calls. calls masculine overcompensation. And it's, there's certain behaviors that you see. I mean, he's a social scientist who's looked at this in groups of men. And there's a lot of dominance, power over, talking over, mansplaining, dating younger women, objectifying women and some of which you described in this scenario with the growth hormone I'm hearing dominance I'm hearing power over you invited him to be on your podcast have power with him he declined so I don't know him personally either but But I would say that among these male podcasters, and there's a lot of exceptions, like Stephen Bartlett, Jay Shetty, for sure. Stephen and Jay, you know, you and I have both been on those, and I would say they're very heartfelt men. Very much so. They do not have masculine overcompensation. No, they don't have masculine overcompensation at all. Well, you know, I want to tell you just so, you know, Stephen, when I went on the second time, I got when I got done, I just hugged him and I said, hey, I just need you to know you changed my life. Like our first conversation really changed the trajectory of my my career. And you know what he said back to me? Here's power with. I think this is something we really want to emphasize here is power over and power with or power together is he said, oh, no, no, no, you changed my life. He's like, do you know how many people stopped me on the street about our episode and thank me for that? Now, that's a man standing in his own confidence. That's right. That's a regulated man. Yeah, there you go. So let's call this out because what I hear in all of my interactions with Jay Shetty and Stephen Bartlett is regulation. Yeah, it's well said. Nervous system regulation, endocrine regulation, probably immune system regulation. I don't know about that. And what I hear in these men or women who like to take down others is dysregulation. That's beautiful. And I also, I really like this and we should continue that language throughout this conversation. I also want to state that I have said this over and over again, patriarch does not mean men. It means power over. And to me, I spent a lot of time when I wrote Age Like a Girl really thinking about matriarch, like maybe women should lead. But there's actually some really interesting history on women leading in matriarchal societies that are very violent. You know, right? So women leading isn't the answer either. But the term I finally came to that sit sat for me with both of them as patriarch is power over and matriarch is power with like within or power together. and I think that might be the lens we look at these people like you're hearing like like Jay Shetty and Steven they just have a softness about them they tell store like there's something about them that you don't feel like they're mansplaining or they're trying to dominate their guests I think that's a key thing you all when you're when you're like where do I go to the podcasters like how are they treating the guest are they I love what you're saying like are they talking over them or are they in a conversation that's together? And I think that's really important to point out. It is. And to track, do you feel regulated as you listen to this person? So part of what would happen when I would listen to some of these bros that have big podcasts is I would feel dysregulated and my window of tolerance. Yeah. Yeah. I would feel like maybe I'm not doing this right. Maybe, maybe I'll die earlier if I don't get my VO2 max higher. Like there's this kind of fear that gets created and dysregulation and then I could only dose it for like 30 minutes. So, and if you're listening to someone do a takedown, a video about growth hormone or whatever it is, and it's making you feel dysregulated, and the speaker is dysregulated, that's a good sign that it's not necessarily a safe place. Yeah. Do you think as a doctor, do you think we should be taking health information as women from male doctors? I think it depends on what you're referencing. I mean, And some of my, you know, I'm in a relationship with an internist who is so wise. And he ran a menopause hormone therapy company years ago. And he, you know, we were interns together at UCSF. And you could see it then. You could see how regulated he was. So I wouldn't say that men shouldn't give women's health advice. But I think you have to. You have to check, like. Are they speaking the truth? Are they what's their motivation? Are they regulated? Are they making you feel empowered? or are they making you feel bad about yourself, bad about your choices? I think that's a great litmus test. I think that. What do you think of the term? This gets thrown around by the bro culture and I'm now seeing it actually with some of the women podcasters, which I want to move to that part of the conversation. What do you think of the term evidence-based. Yeah, I mean, this term has been used for so long. I remember it going back to when I was in medical school and residency, so 35 years ago. And at that time, I don't know that this has changed, but at that time, about 15% of the drugs that we were prescribing were supported by randomized trials. So 85% of the drugs that we were prescribing were not supported by randomized trials. And so evidence-based became this concept of using the highest quality of evidence to support the statements that you make. So I believe in that because, you know, when we – I grew up at a time when we were prescribing Premarin for every woman after age 40. It was the number one prescription in the U.S. Wow. And it was this vast, uncontrolled medical experiment that was done on women. So Premarin, pregnant mare, horses urine together with medroxyprogesterone acetate. We were taught 30 years ago to shove it down a woman's throat to convince her to take it. And so all of this was done in the context of keeping women younger, keeping them looking better. forever young. And it wasn't until the Women's Health Initiative that we finally did a randomized trial. So that was about 60 years of prescribing before we had evidence showing that premerin and provera were dangerous and provocative. So I'm not defending WHI, but for me, that's where evidence-based became kind of a lightning rod. And now I feel like it's kind of used against us in some ways. What's your take on it? Yeah, it's like weaponized. I'm watching a lot of female podcasters are now saying we need more evidence-based, evidence-based. And I think it's like the word optimal health. I hate the word optimal health because I'm like, what's optimal? Do we even know what optimal is? Like, you know, like it's something about it just doesn't give me enough direction on what to do. So I feel like evidence-based, I think, gets translated into science, that there's science showing this information that I'm telling you. Now, I know you've spent a lot of time on PubMed looking at peer-reviewed studies. I, too, have spent a tremendous amount of time there. And I did a little little thing for a couple of months where every article that I was going to quote in a YouTube video, I actually Googled all the authors of that study. Oh, wow. That's a big time sink. It's a big it's a big time sink. But I got to tell you, it brought to light that so many of these science studies are tainted with big pharma. Totally. And it made me realize that when I bring a science study forward, the way I look at it, and I used to tell my patients this all the time, is that it will get you in the ballpark. But now you have to decide where you're going to sit. Yeah. Yeah, that's well stated. And we see this, you know, we talk about clean studies, published in peer-reviewed journals with no association with pharmaceutical influence or big food influence, nutritional influence versus the dirty studies. And then it's important to look at the outcomes for both because usually the outcomes are better for the product in the dirty studies. So I love that you did this. Yeah. Really good inventory. I mean, and that's what I always tell my following. I'm like, in every YouTube video, I'm like, I've left you the link. If you need to know more, go into that link and start to investigate yourself. But it made me hold science. I'm going to be really honest. And I love reading science. I love quoting science. But it helped me not make it the end all be all. and I think when we look at the bro culture of wellness those guys I mean look think about how Huberman's podcast got started it was like I'm going to repeat all these studies like he was just reading off a PubMed on each single topic and and everybody was like oh he's so smart he just went to PubMed and figured out these that read the studies and interpret them which are hard to interpret, but I think we have gotten too far in the wellness industry holding on to, well, what does the science say? What is the evidence? And sometimes you have to take that information and be your own end of one and decide if it works for you. We're back at women shaming themselves. A big one is cold plunging. I don't know if you're getting this on your site, but I'm like, why are we debating cold plunging? Get in it, see if it works for you and then get out. But there have been so many studies and people debating, should women do it? Should they not do it? What part of the cycle should you do? I'm like, just try it and see if it works for you. So I feel like we are wrapping evidence based. We're using it as a phrase to say, You should trust me. Yeah, I mean, it can be used as a crutch. And, you know, what I was taught, I think this still holds true. What I was taught at Harvard Medical School is that if you look at the hierarchy of evidence, the lowest level is expert opinion, then case studies, then observational studies like the nurse cell study, then randomized trials. But even more important is the NF1 experiment. because NF1 allows you to personalize. Whereas even randomized trials that a lot of people think are the holy grail of evidence, they're looking at populations, you know, where there's so many differences in terms of the genome, the epigenome, lifestyle factors. It's very hard to control for all those things. But they end up looking for an effect in the average. It's medicine of the average. And I don't want to be average. No, I don't want to be average either. I mean, the average American has metabolic dysfunction, pre-diabetes or diabetes, and is 35 pounds overweight. I don't want to be average. I want to do N of one experiments. So I agree with you about personalization. Yeah. And so I've learned, and just for people listening, that when somebody says I'm evidence-based, I'm science-backed, I'm like, okay, so you're going to bring me research evidence backing up what you're saying? And that's intriguing. But I think the bro culture, and now I'm seeing women podcasters are doing it the same way, that it's not like a seal of approval. it's it it's just is a way of you understanding that they have done some research and that they're going to bring that research to you that's the way i see it to me the words are cheap like show me your behavior yeah show me how you take a question like should this woman be on a statin? Should this woman, should she address her mitochondria with these three factors? Like, show me the behavior. Show me how you parse the data and how you do, you know, what I do every day, Monday through Friday. How do you take the patient in front of you and counsel her and have this collaborative conversation about the next right step for her based on the data, which usually are limited. Right. And the data set, you know, like then we got like, that's the other thing. You got to go and look at like how many people were in the study? What was the makeup of the study? Like an unpacking a study is quite a process. So so, yeah, I absolutely love that. I want to read a quote I saw this morning from Dr. Aviva Ram, who is a hormone expert. And she basically was responding to what was going on in this situation. And here's what really hit me, and I'm curious what it means to you, and then I'll share what it means to me. She started off by talking about the bro culture. And then she said, if you have been following any of the women who emulate their models or have agreed to appear on their podcasts, meaning the bro, the bro wellness, because they believe in them or want the exposure, what were you looking for? she's basically calling us out saying that as women we go on these podcasts because we want their power we want their patriarchal power i'm going to share a story that i witnessed and i was like what is going on here um you and you you've you've interacted with Andrew Huberman, but he had a big hit piece. And who knows if it was true or not, but there were five women who basically claimed they were all in a monogamous relationship with him, and they didn't know that there were four others. And immediately after that hit piece came on, Huberman brought on about 10 female wellness experts. Prior to that, he had brought two female wellness experts on you and Rhonda Patrick. He was not looking for female conversations. And then he had a hit piece and all the women lined up to get his patriarchal power. How do we, how do we, how do we rectify that? Well, it starts with awareness, doesn't it? Yeah. Like most things. I mean, I think it might be helpful to say just for a moment that. But unlike the Epstein files where I can search justice.gov forward slash Epstein and I can see the 1800 mentions of Peter Atiyah or the 3000 mentions of Deepak Chopra, MD. Yeah, good point. I don't have primary source data with Andrew Huberman. That's a good point. Yeah. So there's so many layers to this. I think there's a way that women do seek patriarchal power because they don't have enough power themselves or they perceive they don't have enough power themselves. And there's been there's, you know, there's a long history of this imbalance of power. now I also think some of that's an inside job and that you can that power comes from within and I think you were making this point earlier that it's power with, it's power within, it's power shared you know there are also women who are not necessarily catering to bro culture by going on some of these big podcasts. They want to have impact. They have really important things to say. And it's a really good platform for them. So I think we have to be a little bit careful because when I took my first women's studies class, when I was in college, a freshman in college, I went into that class the first week, and everyone was talking about intersectionality and patriarchy and I had to learn all these words And my attitude was I never been discriminated against I feel like I got plenty of power And boy did that semester, you know, completely open my eyes and change my level of awareness and discernment about what I was actually seeing operating in our culture. So I don't know with these 10 women that went on Huberman's podcast after Rhonda Patrick and me, are they aware of, you know, kind of the, what's operating in terms of patriarchy? Are they able to witness it? Are they able to see it and use it for the greater good? Or is it like the frogs in the pot of water that's slowly brought to boil and they're not aware of it? So where I want to land this, and I think will be really helpful, I hope we've opened eyes up. But another question I've been thinking about is beyond just how do you pick the right podcaster? How do you know who to get information from? And I think we've done some good jobs on that. Where do women go on social media to feel safe? Can a woman's nervous system stay regulated while watching social media? Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. I'm looking for regulation. Me too. That's the primary thing I'm looking for. So, you know, my nervous system is highly sensitive. Me too. There's certain people that I can listen to and I just feel my whole system relax. Yep. You know, people like Elena Brower. She's amazing. Spiritual teacher, yoga teacher. She's not in the Epstein's files. No, she is not. You know, I'm looking for people who are not using fear to drive the eyeballs and to drive the traffic. I'm looking for people who genuinely want to create a better world. I mean, that sounds so cliched, but they want to do it kind of one person at a time, and they care about that. They care about behavior change, not always selling a product. That's what I was going to say. You know what I'm also looking for is don't just tell me I need a product. Give me a lifestyle solution in case I can't afford that product. Totally. Totally. I mean, especially with longevity. Yeah. You know, longevity is expensive. Yep. What do you think of peptides? Oh, my God. Peptides are really expensive. Compounded hormone therapy. Right. What do you think of longevity was really in the crossfire? the word longevity, the movement of longevity was in the crossfire this week. What do I think about that? Yeah. What'd you think of that? Because you're right in the longevity space. Yeah. I mean, longevity is basically prevention. Prevention has always been a heart's all. And what's interesting, as someone who's been practicing medicine for 30 years, It's interesting to see how longevity has been trending. It's kind of funny to me because, I mean, you and I have cared about prevention for a very long time. And now it's just kind of packaged to ask longevity. Beautiful. So what I get interested in is this point you're making. Who do you trust? Who's got the kind of health span that you're interested in? You know, when I hear things about like caloric restriction or what are some other lifestyle things that I just don't agree with? That's the main one. You know, there's there's some ways there's a way that I want to live my life. And I would love to be around to dance with my great grandchildren at their weddings like my great grandmother did. But I think you also have to look at the cost of that. And you have to say, okay, is that a life worth living? Is that how I want to live? Is this the way that I want to live being modeled by this person? So yeah, longevity was in the crosshairs, but it's really, it's prevention with kind of a little lipstick. that was good that was good what what would you what would you tell a 52 year old woman who's just trying to find health information you know health social media is the number one place people go for health information now she just wants to be inspired her doctor's not giving her answers she's she might have gained some weight her cognition's gone down and she's like who do I believe? Where do I go? Where do I start? How would you help her navigate the landscape? So the way I think about it is two different phases. I think about the unsexy basics. I almost, my word for this these days is base camp. So what's going on with your sleep? How are you eating? What's happening with your relationships? Do you have the right amount of movement. You're 52. That's when things start to concretize, right? Like if I don't move every day, my right hip gets really stiff. That's what happens in your fifties. So I would say, where are you with the unsexy basics? And then hormone therapy, I think is really important, but I don't think it's just estrogen and progesterone. I think you want to look more broadly. I'm a fan of testosterone and women who need it if they've got symptoms. So I like to think of phase two. Phase one is the Unsexy Basics, Basecamp. Phase two is Hormone Therapy Plus and then Refinements. So I like NF1 experiments. I think that's a really good way to do it. um and i would say if you want one place to start metabolism metabolic health it's underlying nine out of ten of the top killers of women so focus on metabolism get mindy's book age like a girl yeah thank you in the last in all the interviews i did for age like a girl like the question kept coming up, like where does a woman start? You know, and I'm like, hemoglobin A1C, like obsess on that number. Just get that number. Right. And you will see a massive hormonal change. And if you can afford it, get a CGM, because sometimes you can have a normal A1C and you're super spiky like I was. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, start with an A1C. Is there a phase three? phase three is secure attachment having the best sex of your life having pleasure at the center having the second half of life be the best thing ever so joy joy and pleasure and pleasure do you think play yeah and play well okay so do you think this is something i've encountered in talking to so many women around the launching of age like a girl they don't we don't know a lot of women don't know how to play anymore. And a lot of women don't know even how to take in pleasure. Is there, I love the way you map this out, like get your base in order. And we talked about metabolic health and that, then get on the right dose of hormones for whatever fits for you. And then you go to this play pleasure place. But I don't, I don't think women like are taught how to play. And we definitely weren't taught we deserve pleasure. It's such a good point. So let's connect this because it connects on so many levels. Women who were traumatized and sexually abused often did not have the luxury of play. They never learned the neural pathways because they were so hypervigilant just trying to survive their childhood or their adolescence. So sometimes you have to rewire, you have to teach yourself how to play, teach yourself pleasure. And I think somatic-based practices can be really helpful for that. I went to, when I went through my divorce, I went to a they're licensed in California a sexological body worker oh and my ex was that this may be another podcast yeah right exactly I should be taking notes we have and they're all it's all based off sex we have to we have to talk about the female orgasm and now we gotta talk about that and how big the clitoris is I mean that is nine to eleven centimeters it's not just that little button. So the clitoris, let's just go back to that for a second. You need to, everybody needs to go Google an image of the clitoris. It is not just a knob. It is crazy. But anyways, keep going. Yeah. So, but my ex-husband agreed to let me go to a sexological body worker. It was the best thing ever. He said, you know, as long as she's female, I don't have a problem with it. So I had this great experience going for a couple of years. What happened there? Lots of different things. I mean, it was a lot about regulation and somatic practices. I went to two different ones, and both of them did breathing exercises the first three sessions. And I was like, tick tock. I got the breathing exercises. Can we get down the business? You're like, great with the breathing, but I came here for the orgasm. I'm regulated. Yeah. So we did orgasmic meditation. We did like a kink scale. We talked about kind of how desire develops. Like, what do your fantasies tell you about your – we definitely have to do a podcast on this because it's a lot of really rich territory. Yeah. And it really opened my eyes. It was super helpful. It's funny. I was listening to a podcast. Huberman was talking about play like a week or two ago. And he's so heady and intellectual as he talks about play and like the benefits of play. I had to turn it off. I was like, I'm going to go home and play, but I don't think this is going to help me get there. Right. You don't need the science of play in order to play. Yeah. But I think it's interesting that you put that as the third phase and I'm going to end this podcast on another one we need to do on pleasure and play because I think so many women haven't been trained for pleasure and play. And I'll tell you a story. I was out surfing today because I go out every day that I can and it's my version of play. and I was sitting on my board next to another woman in her, she was in her fifties. And, um, I said, it was such a beautiful day. And I said, you know what I love about surfing at two o'clock in the afternoon is that I feel like I'm cheating. I feel like I've cheated the work day. And she said, what if working all day is your cheating life? yeah and i was right hold that thought i'm gonna go catch a wave but then i need to come back it was like i literally was like go ahead that's a mic drop moment i mean you and i center our lives around our work right and what is so exciting to me and you and I like won't shut up about this is that in the second half of life, you get to redesign your, your experiences. You get to figure out, okay, what is my ideal day? My ideal day is that I go surfing for two hours. Yep. And I'm going to build my day around that. Yep. That's amazing. I love being in the garden. I love doing yoga. I love having sex with my partner, Brad. Awesome. And I like to put that like schedule that as the apex moment of the day and everything else gets scheduled around it. You know what? I'm going to end on this and then we are definitely doing a play pleasure episode. So I'm going to have my team reach out to you so we can get that. I was interviewed for Age Like a Girl. I was interviewed by Gabby Reese. Yes. Professional volleyball player. Of course. And I don't know, at some point in the in we got talking about libido and she's like, well, Laird and I have sex every day at three o'clock in the afternoon. I was like, every day. And she's like, well, almost every day. Sometimes it's every. And I'm like, why three o'clock? And then she just like you can hear the podcast. She went on and on. And then as I left, I was he was there and I got to meet him. And was it three o'clock? I must have come after the sex because I was scheduled at 5 o'clock. So good. He's such a good-looking human. He has a really strong body. And I was like – I got in the car and I'm like, well, I can understand why you want to have sex with him every day at 5 o'clock. Like, did you look at your husband? He's quite a good-looking specimen of a male person – a male body. Larry Hamilton? Yes. Yeah. So but anyways, it was a fun conversation. And I think what I'd love to dive into with you is play and pleasure because, you know, tying this all back, so many of us have been disconnected from that, especially pleasure. If you've had sexual trauma play, because you're trying to be responsible and you got to put every everybody else's needs out of your own and then you'll be loved like there's so much there. So I'm definitely bringing you back to talk about that. Yes, please. Yeah, and over-functioning. Nothing kills libido like over-functioning. So we've got to stop that right now. Yeah, well said. Okay, anything else you want to say? You know, I want to finish with maybe a moment of redemption and rehabilitation. Please. So we started the conversation with Sunday and reading the Department of Justice, Epstein files and Peter Atiyah and Deepak Chopra, etc. But to me, a more interesting question than what they wrote in their emails and texts is. What's the root cause? Like what led to these men wanting to be around Jeffrey Epstein? What's the wounding that is responsible for the cycle of violence that we see in the Epstein cases? So I don't have the answers. I just want to pose the question. and maybe finish with a little prayer for the people who have been affected. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about the victims and where they're sitting right now as this is all coming out. It has to be re-traumatizing. They're probably going through the same feelings that they had back then. So I definitely agree. I am very clear that the systemic patriarchal system is damaging to both men and women. It is, you know, the fact that men aren't taught to be vulnerable, that they're not taught to express emotion for fear they would be weak from such a young age is how you develop that that bro. I need to prove myself mentality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the hyper masculinity, the dominance, the bullying. Yeah. So you bring up a really good point. And I think that's, you know, that we're all victims here to a system. And I'll end on a piece of hope, which is this is all out in the light. We're seeing it. Yeah, that's right. And we I think women are finally like starting to acknowledge the suppression. And I even think men, I've had some great conversations with my husband, with my son, with other really amazing men that are like the good ones that want to be a part of the solution. So I think that's why I really wanted to keep going after the patriarch because it's the system that allowed this to happen and protected this from getting out into the world. And that's the same system that doesn't allow a man in a marriage to express his emotions or doesn't allow a man in a podcast interview to allow the female interviewer to lead. because he has been marinated in a culture that taught him he needed to be strong and powerful, or there are all kinds of consequences, just like we've been taught in our culture, that you got to wrap yourself up and look beautiful and you need to serve everybody else and then you're worthy. It's damaging to both. Totally. Amen, sister. Yeah. And now we see it. We all see it. We see it. We're aware of it. We're at this moment in our culture where we can solve it. Thank you. Because we can see it so clearly. Like that's what we get from the Epstein files. We can see it so clearly. We can see the problems. Now we have to solve them. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, I love you. Thank you. Love you too, Mindy. Thank you so much for spontaneously doing this with me. I think like you, I'm just one of those people that when it when injustice is a big button for me. And I couldn't sit with this information this week and not feel like I wanted to move into action. And so I feel like calling you as a first step into action and then having this conversation. I'm thinking even more about what I can do to start to break that system apart. So thank you. beautiful. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.