Episode 575: Dr. Jonathan Schoeff: Peptides and the Marketing Behind Modern Longevity - Part 2

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. Welcome to the Habits and Hustle podcast, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs, athletes, and experts to uncover the habits, strategies, and mindset shifts that actually move the needle in your health, happiness, and success. And today, I'm back with Dr. Jonathan Sheff, a surgeon, longevity expert, and co-founder of the Longevity Lab, who is still very actively practicing medicine, I should say. After part one, we knew there was a way too much leftover that we had to keep on going. So in this part of the conversation, we get into this stuff everyone is talking about, but very few people actually understand, which is GLP-1s, muscle loss, fasting, testosterone, biomarkers, grip strength, movement, sleep, longevity metrics, which are actually worth paying attention to. What I love about Dr. Jonathan is that he does not make health more complicated to sound smart. He breaks it down in a way that makes you question the trend, understand the mechanism, and come back to the basics that actually moves the needle. What he shares in this episode will change the way you think about GLP-1's fasting, muscle, and health markers that you should actually be tracking. So let's dive in. Enjoy. Yeah, no matter what. Are they all Skin Better that you like? I do like the Skin Better formulations. I know it's goofy. Why is it goofy? It's not goofy. Oh, well, because as a guy. As a guy, yeah. Well, you're like very, you know, you take care of yourself. Well, I'm taken care of. That's how it works. Okay, well, either way. I do what I'm told. You don't. I do what I'm told. Well, it's working. Yeah. Okay, now we can get into the GLP-1 stuff. Okay, let's do it. So you said that redditrutide is, you want any of these GLPs? Life-changing, no. I've used all of them. You have used all of them. Absolutely. Well, simaglutide and up. So simaglutide, trisepatide, retitreutide. I've used all of them. So if people are having, like, so between trisepatide and retitreutide, I know one works on two receptors. Okay, yep. One works on three receptors. So you believe it's a tool, and you don't believe everyone should be on them, even though you're talking about the insulin resistance to build muscle. So here comes the contradiction, right? Totally. So if muscle is the biggest longevity organ to keep your insulin low, Right. Yeah, GLP-1s have been obviously known to, like, break down muscle and eat away at your muscle. They've been blamed. They've been alleged. Alleged. Alleged. Yes. Let's use that. Okay, so you don't think that the GLP-1s? It's not that simple, no. No. Well, I mean, I know the data. Okay, so if you look at the Step 1 trial, which was the first semaglutide weight loss trial, 2021. Okay. What did it demonstrate? This is really important. 40% loss of lean body mass, LBM. So the problem is, and I just saw a post on this just the other day, lean body mass is not skeletal muscle, okay? They're not the same thing. The 40% is lean body mass. So if you want to make the argument or say you're a personal trainer, you want to get your hustle or you want to do some peptides, this, that, and the other, then you say, oh, my gosh, 40% loss of skeletal muscle. No, it's lean body mass. and realize that lean body mass includes skeletal muscle as one component. In healthy, fit individuals, that may reach the 50% mark. In other words, 50% of your lean body mass in a very fit, well-muscled individual can be skeletal muscle. That's in a really fit person. Yep. So it goes down from there. In other words, no one lost 40% of their muscle. That's not reality. So it's lean tissue. So it includes fat mass, but it also includes organ mass. So non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which is what retrotreutide 100% reduced their fatty liver, which is, that's a game changer from a health perspective. In that case, that's a part of lean body mass. So losing, improving the metabolic function of your liver, losing liver fat is a very good thing. And that's lean body mass too. So it's just not as clean as, you know, Ozempic chews up muscle. Okay, now I do agree that early on, and this was the age-old story with any drug, misuse and abuse. That's always what brings it down. So, yes, when personal trainers and nurses and all these people were handing out Ozempic without any clarity, any reason, bear in mind Ozempic's like an anorexic's best friend. I mean, it was abused at an extreme level. I think it still is. But the thing about semaglutide was that by far and away is the most profound appetite suppressant. So, yes, were people starving? Yeah, yeah. And if you look at the scientific literature, the nutrition literature about highly restrictive dieting, you can lose up to 75% of lean body mass. How do we know that? All you got to do is watch The Biggest Loser. Right. You can just say exactly. So you can say that it's because you're just not eating. If you're in a profound calorie deficit from restriction, whether you're called an anorexic or someone on semaglutide, yes, you risk muscle. I agree with that. But it doesn't have to be that way. In fact, I think GLPs create a very unique environment to actually augment muscle. I mean, what I see in my practice every day with our protocols is literally pure fat loss. They don't lose a pound of muscle and they lose pure fat. But strategic fasting, I mean, that's the secret sauce. But GLPs fit incredibly well into that overall strategy. Wait a minute. So strategic fasting, is there a way to fast where you only lose fat and not muscle? Yeah, 100%. 100%. I mean, I could line them up. Well, you're fasting now, right? I am fasting now, yes. How long are you fasting for? Oh, just fast for the day. so whatever you want to call that so I call it 24 hour fasting technically maybe 34, 36 it doesn't matter a ton to me but are you a person who doesn't care about food no you mean like how do you mean what I mean by that so you're someone who maybe sees food as fuel not as as friends I think all people should see food as fuel, not as bread. You have to look, and this is one of the conversations, so when I meet a new client, I have to... Because I love food. I know, so I'll tell you a true story. I had a client several years ago that I asked, I said, what's your relationship with food? She said, I have a very loving marriage with food. I said, well, I'm going to be the guy that causes a divorce. But food, remember their, what's your relationship with food? Alcohol, anything on the list. Yes. Do they all have the potential to have detrimental health effects? Sure. Does that mean they're detrimental to your health in existence? No, not at all. I do try to help people retool their thought process around food as primarily a fuel. It's a fuel first. Enjoying your food, 100%. I'm all for it. being dependent on your food, that's very different. And I think that's the line that gets blurred in America. Okay, wait a minute. Okay, so fasting to you, why is it so important? And how do you do it where you can maintain your lean muscle mass? Yeah, right. And if someone's not a faster, how do they become a faster when they love food and they can't even imagine not eating and use it as an energy source. I don't know. If you're someone who's an actual – if you work out a lot or you're super active, the idea of not eating is super difficult for me. It can be. Yeah, it can be for sure. Now you can answer all those questions. I know. I've got to remember. Okay. So why fast, first of all? It is the most potent, powerful activator of a biologic pathway called AMPK, A-M-P-K. You've heard of, let's see, all the, have you heard of rapamycin? Yes. That's a big ATIA thing. Yes, of course. Okay, so rapamycin upregulates AMPK. That's why you would take it. So it shuts down mTOR, which is a growth pathway. In the body, there's growth and repair. Let's make it super simple, yin and yang, right? You can have, they can be coincident. You can be doing activities minute to minute that are favoring growth while also allowing for repair. But as we age, as you can imagine, you technically, and this is what all the longitudinal data would say, is you need relatively more time to repair. Because just think of it basically. There's more opportunity for error. What is cancer? It's unchecked growth by definition. So if we don't allow that time for repair, the body can be exclusively based in a growth mode. What you see right now in longevity as a whole, right, you have two camps. Think of it very simply. You have an mTOR camp like a Gabrielle Lyon. Grow, grow, grow. Muscle, muscle, muscle. Leucine, insulin, everything to activate growth, which I have a huge profound respect for Gabrielle Lyon and what she's done, like women's health, just inspiring people. But that high protein, resistance training, progressive overload, that's a growth mindset. Then you see the other camp, which is the repair mindset. So that's that growth is in for M-T-O-R repair, A-M-P-K. I know it's geeky, but that repair pathway. What is someone who embraces repair pathways look like? OK, they fast a lot. Ketogenic diets. So they're typically frail. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I don't like that mindset. I'd rather be on the growth side. Correct. So this is the challenge. You have to be both. It doesn't work in isolation. So we've entered a very extreme time. And this is why some people are spouting off like, oh, what's going to come from all the high protein rage? Now, I don't have those concerns. I think invariably when you look at the average protein consumption for an American is so low that increasing that, there's no harm attached to that. But this is what makes me a longevity expert, is I understand the potential detriment of growth and repair. And I use those two pathways strategically. Instead of being at the mercy of the human body and human biology, we should be able to actually strategically control these mechanisms. The most powerful tool we have to tell the body its repair time is fasting. No, not intermittent fasting, but legitimate, sustained, water-only fasting greater than 24 hours. Okay? So we can use that mechanism. I can fast on a Saturday and do a complete reset in my body so that our end game is something called metabolic flexibility. I know this is geeky, but metabolic flexibility is synonymous in the human body. The best example of metabolic flexibility in human body is insulin sensitivity. Metabolic flexibility is this. It is the most efficient use of fuel sources based on condition and environmental need. So using fat when you're not running from a bear or the cops and using carbs when you need rapidly available fuel. This is the limitation with the ketogenic diet. Eliminating carbs is not the answer. Okay. Okay, but wait. Do you see what I'm saying? I do, but wait. So it's all a spectrum. It's a spectrum. It's a spectrum. So you're saying, though, okay, so. Do you need another shot? I do, really. I think I need, like, a box of these shots. I think I have one. Yeah, I think you do. Exactly. You have it in your bag. So basically, then, you're saying that we should be fasting for longer than 24 hours, not a water, like, you're saying it's a water fast? You can have water, basically. That's what you're drinking. Oh! Yeah. So you didn't fast because you had a magic mind. Yeah, but I looked at the ingredients. It has allulose in it. So you're allowed to have things on your fast? Sure. Zero calorie, zero carbohydrate, for sure. So yeah, non-nutritive. So allulose is a non-nutritive sweetener. So that little magic mind shot has 50 calories. Okay. So that's okay? Sure. So what are you allowed to have on a fast? Coffee? I say black coffee. But why? Why could you put some cream in then? Because of the impact of fat on the fast. Now, it has less of an impact, but there is an element of energy balance that influence the fast. So why can you have a magic mind on a fast? Because there's nothing in it. I was looking at lion's mane, rhodiola. It's a great blend of nutraceuticals, vitamins, minerals, and then allulose is a non-nutritive sweetener. So basically, people can have that on a fast. Sure. You want a five-hour energy? Go nuts. You want a Celsius? Be my guest. I don't know. Whatever you like to do. I would strongly, so on a fast, I recommend to my clients minimum of 400 grams of caffeine, or 400 milligrams, excuse me, minimum of 400 milligrams caffeine, okay? Somewhere between, for my male clients, usually 400 to 600 milligrams. That's a reasonable threshold for a woman, probably in the 200-400 range, okay? So definitely caffeine because it's an accelerant for fat burning. Okay. So we want the key. This is the way it works. And this is why it's so simple. Okay. This is the crux of fasting. And I can explain why. So why do we fast? We fast to first and foremost, reset the system, force the body into one condition and one condition only, which is ultimately defined by ketosis or ketone production. But that's not why we're doing it. We're doing it to zero out our insulin levels for that period of time. Insulin is the gatekeeper. So if you're into the aesthetic body comp goals, fast. If you're into the autophagy clearance of senescent zombie cells, fast. If you're into long-term health, health span, lifespan, longevity by definition, fast. It's all fasting. The fasting physiology, what drives it above all else is normalizing insulin. So when you have insulin, it's fascinating. Insulin is very, very, very engaging with fat cells. And insulin is pretty simple. It's a master switch. And this is, oh, this is going to bring us full circle to redditruti. Why does redditruti, what makes it so unique? So we talk all about insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is a byproduct of a failed system, lifestyle mediated. Insulin itself is not bad at all. Think of, you remember Goonies? Did you ever see a movie Goonies? Of course, yeah. You know Sloth? I don't remember. Chunk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know Chunk's the big bald guy, the guy they kept in the basement? Yeah. The Sloth? I had to look that name up. Think of insulin as Sloth. It's like the big, dumb older brother. He's not intelligent, but he's highly protected. Yeah. Okay? That's what insulin is to the human body. It's protecting the human body from the most toxic, poisonous agent, this is a true statement, that exists in circulation, which is glucose. Okay. I said it. Yes, you did say it. But that doesn't have anything to do. That's not carbs. That's not sugar. It's glucose in your bloodstream. How often do you fast? It depends on what my current, the period that I'm in at any given time. So I will always fast intermittently, whether it be weekly, monthly, duration changes. But if I'm in a structured growth period, so I'm my training intensity, rep range, nutrition right now, I'm on a 1.2 grams per pound, protein intake. So everything's geared towards muscle growth. I'm anticipating probably about a three-month interval. Okay. So during that period, the focus is growth. I'll use fasting once a week or every other week just to make sure that I'm accounting for that repair upgrade. And how long are you doing it for? 36 hours, you said? Typically, it's 34 to 36 hours. And here's why. The problem with fasting, why does it go sideways? It's because no one knows what they're actually trying to accomplish. I think you were saying this. I know people who fasted seven days, ten days. Five days. It's a five-day fast. Why? To clean out the senescent cells, autophagy, that's what I've heard. But how do we know that's happening in five days? I don't know. Because I will prove it to you, if you look at my clinical data, that for some people, in five days of fasting, they still haven't cleared their glucose stores sufficient to induce ketosis, which is ketosis and autophagy are linked, linked pathways. Five days, someone, I had a client whose fasting glucose was still above 100. Do you know what that means? That is insane. We live in an over-fueled, under-moving society. Obesity is a disease. It's a pathology of over-fueling. And so if you're over-fueled, under-muscled, and you don't move, welcome to America. That's the problem. So for some people, you're saying five days doesn't even work? Five days might not touch them. Yes, 100%. So they go two weeks? Well, who knows, right? Would you ever get into an airplane where you know full well the instrument panel's out? No. Of course not. No one's going to do that. So that's exactly what you're doing when you randomly pick a number that you heard Joe Rogan talk about and fast for X number of days. There's zero data. The difference, the crux of the whole conversation is that your body actually will tell you the exact prime time duration of your fast, and it will change over time. It should. So how do you know for you? I follow serum ketones. It tells me exactly where I need to be. So how do people do this? Well, right now, I'll tell you two things. One option is poking your finger. If you've ever seen like a diabetic poke their finger. Okay. That's old school. Yeah. There is a product made by Sibio, S-I-B-I-O. It is the first continuous ketone monitor. People wear glucose monitors. Yeah. Now I'm wearing a glucose monitor, continually checking glucose and continually checking ketones. That has totally changed the game for me. You're wearing them right now? Not currently, no. You're not wearing them? Okay. Yeah, no, I don't have any. Because I ripped my monitors off pushing a sled the other day. Oh. I was kind of irritated. My guy was beating me down, and I ripped them all out. So anyway, I got to put new ones on. And I don't wear them all the time. Just use the – this is the criticism around CGM and the general population. Oh, my gosh, you know, people are just getting a bunch of data. Well, if it's data that is understood and interpreted and applied, it's incredibly valuable. If it's just numbers on a sheet, sure, it's worthless. Okay, so if someone just starts today, we used to say just do 24 hours, 36 hours. No, we have – no, it's about the goal. If they want to clean up the vanessing cells and they want for body composition and they want all the reset. Yeah, of course. Right. So the relationship, very plainly, and I will be honest, as a purist, I don't have human data, specifically antisenescent data or autophagy-based data. Very hard to do outside of, like, academic lab. But the clearest correlation through a common pathway of AMPK upregulation is that more ketones equals more autophagy. It's a very simple way to look at it. So your speedometer is all the same, right? So if that speedometer is going up, you're producing more ketones. You are, by definition, accelerating autophagy while you're also accelerating fat burden. The beauty is you're getting lean and fit and looking your best while you're clearing the bad stuff. This is why it drives me nuts. All the longevity experts are like, biohack this, biohack that. Just fast. Shut up and fast. You'll be just fine. Really? And guess what? It's free. In fact, actually, you save money. My fast, if you saw the amount of food I eat on a regular basis, my fast saves me 100 bucks at least. Easy. Really? I mean, you're not hungry? No, not even slightly. Are you able to work out on that, though? Good question. So yes and no. I would be very strategic about focusing. So movement is everything during a fast. Okay, let's do this. So if you'll buy that, there is a directed relationship, more ketones, more autophagy. So that's your ultimate longevity tool. More ketones only comes from one source. There's not like option A or B. Okay. If you have ketones in your bloodstream, they're coming from fat being broken down into free fatty acids and distributed in the bloodstream. This is the mechanism with which it happens, okay? And the only thing that controls that is insulin. How do we know that to be true? Look at a type 1 diabetic. Do you know what kills type 1 diabetics acutely? It's something called diabetic ketoacidosis. When you have no insulin in your bloodstream, your fat just starts getting chewed through. More fat in the bloodstream, which is what we want, right? Fat burn. You want to be lean, fit? Equals more ketones. It's a linear relationship. Yeah, no, I'm following you. Does that mean the same for women and men are different? Yes, it means the exact same. No, women and men are humans. So it doesn't matter. So I thought, like, women is different with hormones and all these things. We'd like you to believe that. Okay, this is another aside. Stay with me. There is something on the horizon, okay, that is going to transform our understanding of women's health. There's a company called Quinn Labs, okay? I met their founder at some A4M event, I think. You went to A4M? Yeah. What are you going there for? To learn. Oh, okay. Yeah, I want to know what's happening. Do you speak there? I'm hopeful. I've submitted my application. I'm hopeful to speak this year, yeah. Oh, okay. At Longevity Fest? Yeah. Yeah, I clearly have a lot to say. Clearly. I don't hold anything back. No, no, no. And I can put a crowd to sleep with the monotone. Yeah. No, no, no. You're doing great. You're not putting me to sleep. I do need another magic wand. No, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, so the relationship, though, is very clear. So what I stress to people is you have knowledge. It's not the duration. It's the intensity. Just like it's not the duration of exercise. It's the intensity, right? If you can accomplish whatever muscle growth that is max benefit for your aesthetic, for your performance, in 30 minutes versus an hour, which do you pick? 30. Of course. If you can put a million dollars in your bank account in one month guaranteed or you could kind of slave away for the next five years and maybe. Of course. Okay. A month. So the only thing I haven't proven yet, which is where I'm headed with this in my clinical practice, is that indeed the intensity of ketosis correlates to the intensity of autophagy, meaning the higher the ketosis, the higher the autophagy. So what if you could do max cellular cleanup that the literature, the scientific evidence says five to seven days of non-eating, what if you could accomplish that in 34 hours? I'm doing 34 hours every time. It's a no-brainer. Yeah. Because the problem with prolonged fasting is starvation physiology. Cortisol spikes. Cortisol is the most catabolic hormone in the body. Start breaking down muscle. And the tragedy is, and this is why I monitor for all my clients, we monitor glucose and ketones. Because I can tell you when your cortisol spikes. How? On a dime. Well, your glucose spikes. And guess what happens when your glucose spikes? What? Insulin. And guess what happens when insulin happens? No more fat burn. and you're done. So people are going through a fast. They may have a cortisol dump shift into what's called, I would call it starvation physiology, but they start breaking down muscle in producing glucose in the bud stream. Insulin hits and all of a sudden their ketones go to zero. So you're saying women, like pre-menopausal women with hormones and all these things should be fasting? Absolutely A trillion percent A trillion percent And I tell you so this goes back So what Quinn Labs doing Right They bringing a wearable to market It going to start as a finger stick just like I talking about for ketones So write these things down. Sibio, continuous ketone monitoring, going to change the world. Quinn Labs, essentially continuous or frequent interval estrogen and cortisol. all. This is going to be transformative for our understanding because right now it's all theory, right? You've got the one influencer that's like, oh, don't work out during your luteal phase and this and that. I mean, I get that your hormones are changing, but the beauty is you want to have a fail safe. You want to have a zero, zero guide to say, I don't care what's going on in your body. Are you producing ketones? That's the answer. So do I have women fast in their luteal phase and generate a high-grade ketosis? Yes. Wow. Okay. So you're saying... But does that mean every woman does it? No. But the beauty is, all I have to do is check one number to tell you. So if a woman starts their fast, regardless, so my female clients, once a week, every week, six weeks. So they go through the entire cycle, right? So once a week, you recommend to people to fast? The accelerator protocol, what we call the metabolic accelerator, is a once per week for six weeks protocol. And after that? Then you do a six-week recovery. So aggressive repletion of glycogen as your priority, and then shift back to a balanced nutritive state. So every six weeks? So you could, the way it's... Why not? One week? Six on, six off. Yeah, six on, six off. Minimum, yep. Wow. Yep. You can do that. So a targeted, oh, my gosh, if I pulled out my before and afters, okay, this is the data in my practice. And by the way, I can record data in my practice, and it does count as data. Yes. Just because it's not in a scientific article that's published doesn't make it not real. Right. Okay. So reproducibly in my client base, six weeks on average, six weeks, that's one cycle, 50%, 5-0, they lose half their total body fat. 50 percent by doing this back and forth six no no no by just doing one one single six week protocol 50 total body fat up to 75 percent visceral fat and that's the secret that's amazing that's the trick so you asked me first off can you only lose fat doing doing strategic fasting the answer is Absolutely, yes. Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentus 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega-3 combo for months now, and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone. The Crea Pure Creatine boosts both physical and your mental performance. The grass-fed whey tastes great with no weird aftertaste, and their omega-3 is a must for recovery. Since adding these, my energy, my recovery, and my overall well-being has really improved. So if you want better performance, this is the way to go. Visit LiveMomentous.com and use my code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. That's LiveMomentous.com, code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did. Okay, so let's say tomorrow I'm going to fast. Okay. Okay. I can drink coffee. Sure. And then I go from 8 o'clock on Sunday to even 8.30 on Monday. Will that be okay? If you want those results that I'm describing, it is extremely structured. Way more structured than that. You just said I can have coffee. I can have magic mind. What else? But it's all what you do going into the fast, during the fast, and exiting the fast. Okay. Okay. So what is the strategy that we should do before we fast? I know. I'm not at all surprised. This is a shameless plug. True story. We are wrapping up development of an entirely freestanding fasting module based on our entire clinical experience. Myself and one of my partners. So we're building out a standalone, full-on educational module that will support clients through the entire fasting journey down to, I mean, it's literally down to the minute. Because what happens, what I'm talking about, would you get results from doing what you just said? Yes, you would. I think they'd be somewhat unpredictable. I don't know what we would do with it. But I can tell you, the key is, looking at every week, there's a three-day period that we got to lock in. The other four days, I need you training standard, max intensity like we've talked. Eat whatever you want. I don't care what calories, carbs. I mean, fuel with a purpose. Consume calories to maintain output. But for three days every week for a six-week period, you have a pre-fast, fast, and post-fast day. Tell me what it is. Pre-fast. Very pure and simple. Rapidly deplete glycogen. At the end of the day, pre-fast is about dropping your insulin as low as you can get while still consuming food. That's the prep. What I said was, if we've got insulin in the bloodstream, forget about it. Don't bother. So how do we get rid of it? So ideal is your morning a.m. to midday. You need to get your major lift. So your heaviest lift of the week comes on your pre-fast day. That's how we structure it. So if you told me, hey, every Wednesday I do legs, cardiometabolic. That's usually what it is. It's a lower extremity or whole body. It's a big lift because lifting is what consumes massive amounts of glycogen. So heavy resistance, progressive overload, big movements, 45 minutes to an hour before 2 p.m. on your pre-fast day. Okay. Earlier is better. Following your training session, that's the only time where I'm lasered on zero carb. You cannot have any carbs after your training session. Okay. So you can eat up until 6 p.m., fat and protein only. At 6 p.m., we cut off all food. Okay. Now here's the secret sauce. After that last meal of the day, you have to move. Movement is medicine, yes. Movement around meals is the true game changer. So we have that 6 p.m. meal, 60, 75-minute brisk walk. That's all you need. How long? 60 to 75 minutes. So for me, that's when I return my emails, when I do all my dosing and prescriptions. I just sit and walk. I walk on a walking pad. Super easy. For an hour after dinner. Yes. And if you, folks, you want to know, if you change three things today to radically transform your body, that's all you're going to change. Okay? Movement is medicine, 100%. Anchor everything in protein. Protein is the non-negotiable. And eliminate added sugar. I don't care what else you do. I do not care about your calorie consumption. Because if you're eating whole foods, you just can't consume. The absurdity of people like, oh, I eat 10,000 calories. No, you didn't. I mean, do you know how hard it is if you're eating whole food? Now, if you're drinking milkshakes, of course, but eliminate the added sugar. OK, that's a non-negotiable. Everything anchors in protein, your day and your meals. Protein first. OK, and then the last piece is move around meals. It is a game changer. If we talk about insulin resistance and how to augment glucose curves, because that is the key driver. Glucose stimulates insulin secretion, period. Done. Do other things do it too? Yes, absolutely. But the workhorse is glucose. So if you can moderate your glucose excursions, how high, how long, and how often, you will indeed be healthier metabolically. That's just real life. There's no debating it, and yet people get on these crazy train things like, oh, you're saying no carbs. No, I'm not. I'm saying know what's happening in your body and use it to your advantage. Brisk walking. Yep. After every meal? Yes. Okay. And if you could only do it once in a day, do it after your last meal of the day. Yeah, of course. Well, but we looked at it. This goes back to Lumen. We were talking about Lumen. When Lumen was initially founded and they were looking at their early data, the one single best predictor of entering fat burn mode while you were sleeping was movement after the last meal of the day. Why? because it's such an incredibly powerful tool. Muscle is not a metabolic engine. Have you used that term, like, burns more calories? More muscle does burn. I do, I do use that. Okay, that's true. So I used to say it's a metabolic engine, but we need to reframe that conversation much higher level. Muscle is a glucose management system. Let muscle decide how glucose is utilized. Muscle cells can store glucose, and they can use it as a fuel. I'm not smarter than your body. But if you move after a meal, you create channels, openings in your muscle real time, actively. And the glucose pours into that without an insulin response. So in effect, what you're doing by moving after your last meal of the day is you're normalizing your insulin levels. An hour to 75 minutes is a lot. It is. I get that. That's a lot. I get it. Okay. People have to go to work the next day. Kids, whatever it is. Can 30 minutes get... Have you heard of a family walk? Yeah. No. Sorry. Explain that to me. My little girl, I always take my son on a walk, and if she gets left out, she goes, Yeah, I'm sure. She will come flying out of the house, screaming, like bawling. Really? Do you know where I believe me? Anyway, you can do family. I agree. I'm just saying, can you do 30 minutes? Totally, totally. Here's where I would kind of push back a little bit. Again, if you want those results that I'm describing, pure fat loss, high grade, short period of time, that pre-fast post-meal walk needs to be 60, 75 minutes. So like I'm saying, so I'm talking about what you do on two days in your entire week. Okay, that's fair. That's manageable. That's manageable. Right. Okay, yeah. But I agree with you that every night, 60, 75, yeah, probably not practice. Let me ask you a question. Are you on testosterone, though? I do take testosterone, yeah. See, because... You know, the reason I don't... So, yeah, I don't have any secrets I maintain. No, I'm just saying because you're super fit. How old are you, 46, 47, 48? Almost 48. 48, okay. 48 in a couple weeks. And you're ripped. I went through your Instagram before you got here. Smoke and mirrors. Listen, smoke and, I don't know, I don't know if you can fake that. It's all AI. It is, and you're doing AI. But I'm saying, so you're telling me, were you naturally this way? No. Genetically, no? No, not at all. You've got to, oh, my gosh. I mean, my freshman season in college. No, no, no, no, no, no. You can't say that because everyone gains weight in college. No, no. Well, I was going to say I came into college weighing 145 pounds. Oh, so you're skinny. I was like you could cough and I would fall over. Okay, but that's when you're thin genetically, it's much easier to build muscle. You weren't a fat kid basically. No, no. I guess that's true, yeah. You were not a fat kid. No, no. Okay. But because you're ripped for not to say like, listen, people always think that I'm AI or that I'm on like HGH. I'm being sarcastic. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, but seriously. There's no way you're for it, whatever. So you are on testosterone, though. Yeah, so I've been, I mean, so I, and I can share all my labs with you. There's no secrets. No, I don't. It's not my business. But I think it's an important distinction. This is why. Were you low T? I was, actually. So I was, and I have been, went through a couple life, big life experiences. And as a result, I mean, my testosterone, among other things, really suffered. So I'd have to go back and look. Wait, what happened? What would happen? Well, where it really went sideways is we lost our first daughter. She passed away at birth, or she was stillborn is how you say it. Oh, I'm so sorry. So believe it or not, actually, to your point, it was actually a pivotal time in our lives, not in a good way. So this comes to, like, food addiction, right? I never thought anything of it, and, you know, that was an event in my life that was just, like, just totally out of left field. Because, like, I deal in a world as a surgeon, like, calculated risk, you know, but it's controlled. You know what can happen when, and somehow you process that. But with child loss, it was out of left field. It was like, this is how crazy it was. I mean, obviously, I went to medical school, and I didn't ever realize this could happen. I don't think I did. So it was just so far-fetched that I was not at all prepared. And so I, like, did a nosedive into really deep depression. And in my therapy, you know, some people drink, I eat. and uh i true story i was going through like a costco bag of sour patch kids a day like just fists and i was near diabetic when when like when the dust kind of started to settle a little bit we lost our daughter in august august 29th and um you know like the first three four months was just so dark, so dark, you know? And I gained 50 pounds, give or take. My hemoglobin A1c was 6.4%. So actually ate myself into diabetes. 6.5% is the definition of diabetes. So basically right there. And so much of this conversation, my practice that we own now, we opened for me is one, it's a mechanism to honor my daughter. Because before that time, I think it was very self-deprecating, very self-critical, but I was also critical of other people. I didn't have a lot of empathy. And I'm going to say this, I'll just be real. Someone is obese, oh, they're lazy. Just these snap judgments, right? You don't know what someone's life experience is. You have no idea what's driving. They may be radically different. I was radically different in six months time. I mean, I just straight nosedive. So in that sense, I'm beyond grateful. It's a horrible experience, but like it taught me a lot about humility, about empathy. And now that's why I feel like I can connect more with people. Yeah, I deal with high performers, but that doesn't mean I don't deal with obesity and heart disease and everything else under the sun. But that reset for me was really the origins of the longevity Lab today because I went through that and I'm looking around and I literally is like vivid for me. Wake up one day, just look in the mirror and go, what? What just happened? Like, I can't account for the last six months of my life. And so I pick up the phone, start calling my colleagues. Help me out. Okay. And so this comes back to your testosterone question. I mean, my testosterone was like 200. It was just everything just bottomed out. I was just a walking cortisol bomb. It was also because of your lifestyle, though, that you created. Yes, totally. It wasn't because of, like, your, like, if you just went back to, like, eating better and exercising. I don't disagree with that. Right. I don't disagree, but I want to comment on that because I want to be fair to the conversation. But in that time, I was, like, rock, rock, rock bottom, and I swear to you, I looked in the mirror, and I couldn't account for six months. The saving grace for my life between my wife, between God, and then my son. My son was two years old, and he is my, like, I can't even talk about it. He's just my, like, my little rock, you know. And so, like, you know, you have to get up every day because, like, this little guy, he still needs me. So, anyway, long story short, got very unhealthy. And then I started reaching out to my colleagues and stuff, like, hey, can you help me? What do you recommend and all that stuff? It was like a black hole, you know, and I didn't know anything about social media, probably for the best. But the Longevity Lab was born out of my own personal journey to just figure this out. I got to figure this out. How do I get back on the horse and, like, get back in the game? How long ago was this? So this was 2019 into 2020. So it was six years ago. Yeah. And you have two other – you have another daughter. A daughter. Yeah. A daughter. My – oh, man. How old is the daughter? She's five. She's five, yeah. So, yeah, we just, we'll celebrate my daughter, Emmaline, her seventh birthday, which is just mind-blowing, right? It's like life keeps going. Wow. This is all on the side, but it was really the impetus to try to figure this out. And then I can't really do anything halfway, so I started really geeking out on it. But as it related to my testosterone, totally agree that I have some radical lifestyle changes. I get on track with diet and nutrition. But the truth of the matter is, which I would say to any one of my clients, I would argue this. The number one cause of hypogonadal hypogonadism, low testosterone in men today, is metabolic dysfunction. If you look at the impact of hyperinsulinemia, high insulin levels on testosterone production, insulin actually prevents testosterone production. It's inhibitory. But why are all these young men on it? Like, I'm hearing like 30, 33, 34, 35-year-old guys are like taking it. Right. Well, so here's – You just look really fit. That's why I thought so. Of course I have to be. Yeah. Well, no, no, no, no. I was just teasing you a little bit. No, I know. But that's the other thing, though, is all these stories and narratives. people just need to be more educated on what is real and what is not. And social media creates all these bizarre worlds where is testosterone going to make you really fit? No. It can also make you really fat. It can do a lot of things and it can drive you off the rails and you can go bald. But testosterone when used appropriately, when used as a tool, a physiologic tool, which is where I maintain my levels. I maintain my levels. What number do you have now? My most recent was like 325, which was way lower than I wanted to be. See, that's not very high. No, correct. That's very low. Correct. That's right. So I constantly – You need to kind of boost it up again. Yeah. Well, but I think – no, no, but it's a really important point because there is physiologic testosterone, no different than replacing a woman's estrogen. So if a man has a libido of 300, do they typically – Testosterone, yeah. Yeah, I was going to say that testosterone, is there, does that, sorry. So if a man has a, if their testosterone is below a certain point, does that affect their libido is what I wanted to ask. Oh, of course. So what level does a man have to be at? Well, let's say, let's ask a different question. At what level does a man's health become compromised? Actually, the risk of a heart attack go up. Actually, the risk of death. So we used to think of, everybody has in their mind testosterone. Oh, it's a bodybuilder thing. oh, it's just to get jacked and all that stuff. No, actually, low testosterone is a health hazard. Much different conversation than we had in the past. Serum testosterone, total testosterone less than 250 portends a higher risk of heart attack, upwards of a 30% increase in risk. So it's a health risk. So this idea where we have to get out of this kind of dated, antiquated mindset, oh, that's the bro science. Oh, you're on roids. Okay, there are synthetic anabolic steroids. Okay, we can list them off. And it's crazy that social media, it's a free-for-all now. You know who's getting hurt, by the way, are the 16-year-old boys, the 18-year-old boys, that are seeing a grown man saying, hey, I got jacked, and they're listing off these absurd anabolic protocols. Well, do you know that kid, the look-maxing guy, Clavicular? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's a 20-year-old kid, and he's been taking testosterone, I think, for five years. I mean. But that's what's influencing all these young kids. Sure. Yeah, I know. Right? I know because I thought you were going to say, I think it was a Canadian bodybuilder. Some young guy recently died, like early 20s. There was this very popular bodybuilder on social media, but young guy. I believe he had cardiac complications. Really? Oh, yeah. It's a real thing, but we've got to separate physiologic testosterone. Well, because the whole thing is, it's funny. If you go to a regular doctor and they take your biomarkers and they'll say, oh, you're normal. Yeah. What does that mean? But like, yeah, what does that mean? Right. So in your world, because you're so dialed in, what do you think is a healthy place for a man with their testosterone? Yeah. And with a woman is much different. Yeah. Yeah. So the important thing to know is that it's, I think this comes from, but it's free testosterone. So everybody talks about total testosterone, which is pretty much irrelevant. Free testosterone, just with any hormone, hormones get bound to proteins. If my hormone's stuck to a Velcro ball, for example, it can't go and attach to the receptor. So total testosterone is not that important. But free testosterone, a part that's available. For a male, my bias in my practice would be a free testosterone 15 to 20. That, if you look at lab normals, is going to be high normal. Okay? Now, for a man who, again, if I'm focusing on muscle growth phase. You say 15, 20? 15 to 20. Okay. And for a woman? For a woman, anywhere from 2 to 5. It's very, and it can be higher. I have a couple of female clients, beautiful, feminine, rocking life, who have free testosterone above five. And, I mean, some would say like that. Those same levels would be what we call virilizing levels. So people transitioning. Oh, really? Yeah. But that's why the numbers, this is the problem with numbers, is numbers only apply to a cross-section of the population. It's an average, right? So there's going to be highs and lows. But those aren't defined by performance output, which is the thing I look at. So libido, mental clarity, decisiveness, mood, immune health, muscle health, all these components that testosterone directly contributes to. So then, okay, so then why are all these young guys taking it? Why is it like 30-year-olds, 20-year-olds are on testosterone? Well, I think we know some of that answer, right? It is because it, yes, super physiologic levels. So, 350, is your libido totally tanked? Not great. Really? Yeah, no. I'm just asking seriously. I mean, I wouldn't say, I don't know about tanked. And by the way, hormone health is a lot more nuanced than we do. No, I know. It's not three hormones, but it's precursors. It's post-products. It's a lot to it. But I would say that, I mean, for a male, testosterone is the key driver of cognition on down. So libido, yeah, that's part of the equation, but it's not really a major part in my mind. If you came to me and said, I want testosterone for my libido. No, no, no, I know. I would say, well, let's push pause here. Let's talk about why are young men, there's two camps, okay? There are more and more young men who have low testosterone by laboratory analysis. So that's one group. Those people, I'll explain why, in my strong argument, they need treated. And there is a threshold to say all the diet, exercise, realistically, you're not going to get there in a meaningful amount of time. And so you're basically climbing Mount Everest butt naked. Okay? Then there another camp which is kind of the performance camp where people have gone off the rails and it all driven by social media that we actually normalized the conversation around anabolic steroids Oh yeah just do you You know, oh, you want to get jacked like me? I saw this guy. He's literally word for word. I'm trying to think of his using. He says, if you're a man over 40 and you want to look like me, you're similar fizzy, you have to take. And then he lists off five anabolic steroids. And the game hasn't changed. What did he say? Trim, mass. I mean, he's literally, I mean, it is a crazy cycle. His message is, if you're a man over 40, you can't get like this without these. That's scary. That's super scary. And it's so not true. It's completely untrue, right? But imagine who gets hit with that more. Is it the other 40-year-old male that buys his BS? No, it's the 18-year-old kid that goes, well, I'd kind of like to look like that now. Right. And now all of a sudden you're hearing from an adult and there's no discussion. He said, you know, I want to be transparent about how I got this way. So he listed off this whole stack, right? And I wrote a comment. I said, well, if we're being transparent, I'd like you to share your labs with us. I'd like to see how effed up your liver is. I'd like to do an echocardiogram and show how dilated your left ventricle, how thickened and dilated it is. I'd like to look at your coronary arteries and see how much plaque you've built up because that's real. Okay, we've known that for 50s, you know, origins of anabolic. So 70 years. This isn't new information. No, of course not. Why does that matter? Well, because you're framing this as there's no downside, only upside. Is it true that once you start taking it as an injection, though, your body stops producing it on its own? No. It's all relative. And so this is the most important, categorically the most important part of the discussion, I believe, needs to center around the people that do actually, I would argue, need testosterone. the 32-year-old executive who's been grinding for the family business for the last 15 years. And, yes, I'm talking about a client of mine who is – 32, you said? 32, okay? So he's been going hard for the family business. He's an executive level, very well off financially, very successful. And he's also put on roughly 80 pounds of fat mass, pure fat. Okay? He comes and sees me. His total fat mass was 79 pounds, okay? and his testosterone is 280. Here's the thing, okay? I don't disagree that the most detrimental mechanisms for his health related to his testosterone are visceral fat and hyperinsulinemia, insulin in the bloodstream. But here's the thing. I totally agree that eliminating those two will allow his testicles to start functioning normally again. The problem is how are you going to eliminate these two when you've got a testosterone less than 300 You get winded if you go to the gym for 10, 15 minutes. You're at such a severe disadvantage. So the causal relationship between metabolic disease and low testosterone has to be acknowledged. But the mechanism of reversal, it's not snapping a finger. Obviously, he didn't get there in one day. He's not going to get out of it. But I use the analogy. I mean, dumb and dumber, right? Are you going to freaking summit Mount Everest butt naked without a Sherpa? Is it possible you could do it? Sure, there's a chance. One in a trillion, one in a... So having someone who's so severely disadvantaged physiologically to do the one thing that will actually impact positively on his long-term health, which is build muscle, to me that's insane. And I see this all the time. Young men, I go up to people at the gym all the time. I see guys, you see guys that are working their butt off. You see plenty of guys that aren't. But there are guys I see all the time working, they're bucked, pouring sweat, they're obese, they are struggling, they are putting in the work. And I look at that person, I go, I'm not saying it's right or wrong how they got to that point, but there's no way you're getting out of that. Is it? I agree. Do you see what I mean? Yes, I do. And so in that case, whether you're 28 or 50 or 90, I don't care. At that point, yes, you have to do a biomarker analysis. It's not how you feel. But once you test, if that guy's free testosterone is three, four, five, okay, there's literally, he does not have the signal to support muscle growth. So it is going to feel impossible because physiologically he's so disadvantaged. But here's the cool thing. This is what people miss. I meet with that guy and I tell him point blank, yeah, we need to introduce an outside source of testosterone. Your body's not doing it. But I fully anticipate as we shift your body composition to a much more improved physiologic effect, so rapidly or markedly decrease insulin, get rid of the visceral fat, your testicles are going to kick back in, and we're going to be able to come back down on that testosterone. And so this gets to the question, am I on it for life? Absolutely not. No, it's part of a strategy. It's part of a bigger picture. It's a protocol. It's how we deliver care to optimize the individual. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. So it's not a, this is the misguided, you know, oh, once you're on it, you're, yeah, for that 25-year-old doing mass, trim, D-ball, testosterone, all the, I mean, he's frying his testicles. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Totally different scenario. Is there a biomarker that doctors are not looking at that is very important to kind of tell you your overall health? Fasting insulin, not hemoglobin A1C. I mean, look at a broad-based hormone. For a male, it would be free testosterone above all else, because I see so many guys that get a total testosterone level. It doesn't matter. It actually doesn't matter. It's the free testosterone. Okay. I think looking at biomarkers for genetic risk of heart attack, the one that has been missing for years is lipoprotein little a, LP little a, apolipo B. You have to be considerate of cholesterol's role in cardiovascular disease. Notice I say role. Okay. So those tests are the ones that I think get left off. You know, I see, guys, LP little a is a largely genetically conferred risk for heart disease. Okay. higher levels can translate to three to five times higher risk of a heart attack. This is the guy that's your golfing buddy that you play tennis with every weekend and drops dead in the grocery store. Okay. So every doctor checks a lipid panel. That's standard. Yeah. So what did you say? Lipoprotein little a. And why did you say? Because you're right. Because I know a lot of these guys who look super fit, they play tennis every day and they're dropping dead at 40. My lipoprotein little a, okay, is 280 off the charts. My apolipo B, the strongest predictor that we have of what we sort of clot forming capacity, my apolipo B is 55. So I have a genetic abnormality, if you will, that increases my lifetime risk of a heart attack markedly. So what does that mean? Well, the cool thing is in the next probably year to two, Big Pharma is actually coming out with a monoclonal to actually treat, to actually eliminate this risk. But it's the risk, like I could run 10 miles a day, I could do all this stuff, and I'm still carrying a risk, a genetic risk for heart disease. Okay. So that's why these data points become imperative. And sadly, in the United States, that is not anywhere close to standard of care. So what do you do for it? If there's no medication for it now, what are you doing to make it better? Well, there are medications that can augment. What are you doing? I'm not doing anything right now. You're just watching it. Yes. What if you dropped dead of a heart attack? Well, so this is the difference. So what we call genotype phenotype. So I have a genetic risk. We know that's circulating in my bloodstream. But I also get a dynamic study in my heart called a Clearly AI scan that was totally clean. So the issue is, okay, I know there's a risk, but now we've got to see is that risk translating to a physical problem. So I don't have any plaque right now. So for me, it's a hard argument to say, oh, I should just take medications. To me, I see that as unnecessary. That's me speaking as a physician. So with my client base, we do an entire workup, right? So biomarker analysis is one piece of the puzzle. Right. But someone who has an elevated risk, well, we still have to ask the question, has it actually translated to disease? Right. Okay. So you've got to be very careful. And so this gets to, by the way, this comes back to the conversations around testosterone. Superphysiologic testosterone absolutely worsens the lipid profile. Right. So if you have really low testosterone, that will just increase the risk more. Well, it's the bookends. So we know observationally that low testosterone results in a higher risk. I shouldn't say it results. I want to be careful. We don't know that it causes, but we see the correlation. Low testosterone, higher risk of heart attacks. We've made that observation. As it relates to high testosterone, so now, again, this is the issue with bodybuilders. they're taking, I would argue, like six, seven times what a physiologic dose would be. Point blank, I take 60 milligrams of testosterone. Okay. It's like tiny, tiny, tiny little bit. Bodybuilders are talking about taking 600 to 700 milligrams. Insane. Okay. But at really high levels of testosterone, you see your lipid, because it's affected the liver, you see your lipid panel go off, totally off the rails. Okay. So you have the observation that low testosterone, people have higher heart attacks, but then I know for a fact if we crank your testosterone, it will negatively impact your lipid panel. So there is a spectrum, which is why I say all the time, you know, your friendly fitness influencer, they don't quite get the nuance, right? And yet they're telling. The craziest thing about Instagram is you have non-medical providers giving medical advice, and they have no liability. There's no liability. That's exactly the problem. I see doctors getting pursued for various reasons, various claims, like you alluded to, the guys outselling peptides. But if you're a fitness influencer, you can actually tell someone, no, you should take 250 milligrams of testosterone. That's not medical advice. That's prescriptive authority. 100%. And then what are you going to do? So say you follow that advice. You take it and you have some complication, right? Who's to blame? Nobody. You are. Because you're the idiot that followed. Besides myself, I'm saying, what are you going to do, sue them? Right, exactly. And what's the first thing they're going to say? They're going to laugh. They're going to go, why did you take my advice? I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. Exactly. And then they're kind of fucked after that point. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of that. I'm all about finding sustainable ways to optimize performance, the kind of work that actually moves the needle on how you feel and function. And that's why I really need to tell you about Prolon's five-day program. Most of us are chasing quick fixes that never get to the root of the problem. And the result is sluggish energy, brain fog, and bodies running below its full capacity. 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That's prolonlife.com slash Jennifer Cohen and use code Jennifer Cohen. I have to ask you a couple more questions. We're going to have to do part two. I'm down. Are you okay? No, you know the whole reason I came out here is because this is the coolest thing about social media. To meet real people. Yeah. I thought social media was just pure smoke and mirrors, and there's a lot. But then you meet very legitimate people and people who have a voice and connection with other people. It's wild. Yeah. So, like, my impetus to come out here is that this isn't like a medical or science podcast. This is like people just living their lives out there that are getting flooded with garbage, noise. I'm so glad that you came here. No, so that's why, like, I love to do it. Because this is where, this is the whole reason I got onto social media. It's not to go back and forth with other doctors, but try to bring just a little sanity and rational thought to the conversation. Good, because I've got to be good. It's not cool, but it's real. It is cool. You're excellent. I'm so glad that we got connected or I connected to you. Yeah. Okay, wait. There's so many things. I'm going to try to just kind of keep it to the things I really wanted you to talk about. The first one is grip strength, right? Right? I need to talk about this because you told me it's a myth that grip strength actually predicts your longevity. No, I didn't say that. That's what you said. How dare you? No. I said different? No, no, no. Did they say it wrong? Well, let me explain it this way. It's an absurd metric. It is irrelevant to even just the human. Okay, so let me say it again. It's not a myth because it's actually a scientifically measured fact. It is a metric that has been used to correlate. Okay, let me re-say it then, okay? So the scientific metric of checking somebody's grip strength is not an accurate way of checking somebody's longevity? No, it's not a worthwhile metric to trend. What's happened is the great Peter Atiyah, the great neurodivergent Peter Atiyah, who latches on to these numbers and then just takes it to another level with his marketing team, grip strength is a surrogate marker. It is one way to measure strength. But what you're measuring in grip strength is you're trying to reverse engineer whole body strength. So I have people coming to me saying, well, what's the best way to measure my grip strength? carry your kids in your arms. I don't know. Do something practical. Grip strength is not going to prevent you from falling off a toilet and dying. The data is very clear. The mortality, the number of adults over the age of 65 who die within one year of a pelvic or proximal long bone fracture is a third. What is that saying? So if you fall and break your hip, one third of those people will be dead within one year. They go to a nursing home, they get pneumonia, they die. Okay. Why is that happening? It's because it's a reflection. Why did you fall is the question. You're unbalanced, you're uncoordinated, and you're weak. So when you do indeed compare grip strength to proximal lower extremity muscle strength, proximal lower extremities win every time, right? You don't, I don't care. You could have forearms the size of my torso, and it's not going to prevent you from falling, but weak quads will. So we need to be looking. So the trainer I swear by, a guy named Jeff Schutte, is brilliant. We've been working on a functional performance longevity score. One of the workhorse exercises that we use is a walking kettlebell farmer carry lunge. Now that, so simply put, walking lunge, 50 meters, okay, unbroken. So it's the full step each time, okay, two kettlebells. So effectively, that's your grip strength metric. I'll pay homage to grip strength. But what you're measuring, think about what you're measuring there. You're measuring, first and foremost, lower extremity strength. But you're also measuring balance, coordination, and mobility. Those are what will have you fallen off a toilet. And then a third of your peers are going to be dead. So we have to reframe. We have gotten so off the rails, and this is a reasonable criticism of longevity medicine, is you guys are just pulling stuff out of your ass. You're pulling, plucking data points. This was the Atiyah legend. If you saw the 60 Minutes special, he literally has a lady hanging from a bar. You really think that's going to prevent her falling off a toilet? It's moronic. It's truly moronic. What matters, so we lose logic. We discard logic for these cool numbers. But I need to have everything framed in the form of what is actually going to move the needle for somebody. And by far and away, if you were going to do one activity in your lifetime to extend your health span and lifespan, it would be sit to stand movements. Does that make sense? So like my grandfather, who passed away weeks before his 103rd birthday, his deficiency ultimately came to being able to go from a sitting to standing position. That's why he wound up in a nursing home. He lived 102 years on his own, and his muscles weakened. So if we prevent that from happening, you are actually, by definition, improving longevity. So doing a walking kettlebell lunge is the best exercise. So yes, so our scoring system is based on the percent of your body weight that you can do. So we consider elite would be 1%, is 110% of your body weight. You try doing that with kettlebell lunge. It's hard to do. You know what? Like, for whatever reason. It's so good, isn't it? Yes. And even a walking lunge in itself is very difficult. Exactly. So my point is. That's a great point. I love that. The criticism or critique around longevity medicine is people are just obsessing over numbers. And that's a fair critique. That's a great point, yeah. If you want to talk about grip strength, a dead hang. Do you know what single community that I'm aware of that actually tests dead hangs? It's the United States Marine Corps. Want to know why? It's because you could actually fall out of a helicopter and your life would depend on hanging. Yes. Okay, a 60-year-old woman, your life doesn't hinge. And the myth is that now people have gotten in their head, oh, I'm going to get bigger forearms. Oh, I'm going to hang. No, it's a proxy for whole body strength. But we know very plainly proximal lower extremities. So glutes, hamstrings, quads, that complex is survivability. Yeah, I agree. Because think about it. If you really had a bizarre scenario where someone's upper torso, chest, and upper extremities were relatively weak, and they had a really strong core lower extremity group, I would say that person's probably better off. No, I think that's a great point. You know? And it's also common sense. That's my point. This is the critique against longevity medicine, is what happens when common sense goes out the door. Well, what my grandmother would always say is common sense isn't very common. Right. What happens when common sense isn't so common? Peter Atiyah becomes a longevity medicine expert. And so that's the criticism that I take every day. They're like, oh, you just made this name up. You just made this title. No, I poured myself into my craft. and what I've done different than anybody else I'm aware of is it's all evidence-based, data-driven results defined. I actually keep the data and make decisions based off of it. It's not like hocus-pocus. Oh, well, you're probably going to feel better. Oh, let's get some biomarkers once in a while. No, it's very data-directed, just like going back to the fast. Continuous glucose, continuous ketone. That's the differential. That's the differentiating factor. Now, again, coming back to the women's health question, now we're going to have continuous estradiol. We're going to answer questions that have not been answered in the history of the world because I don't know what does what happens with your estrogen minute to minute through your entire cycle. Truly, no one knows that scientific evidence does not exist today. We're dealing with just throwing darts, plots on the line, knowing full well that a woman's hormones change through a 28-day cycle for years of decades of their life. So that data combined with ketone data in fasting, yeah, I think in the next year, I'm going to be able to be talking on a level that's radically different than what we are today. But my gut sense, as a professional, my gut sense having treated so many women, it's not going to really change the game. Because no different than a male who may be stressed from like a viral illness, they're not going to enter ketosis. So maybe for some women in the luteal phase, they may not enter ketosis, but it's easy. You have a fail safe. Okay, if at 12 hours of someone's fast, this is how we do it. If by noon on the fasting day, you're still in a low-grade nutritional ketosis level, for whatever reason, we stop. What's the point? Exactly. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. But now when you have the data, you're making informed decisions. Yeah, I understand. It's not like, oh, I don't feel well, or oh, I feel dizzy. I don't – that's not – I'm sorry you feel dizzy, but what's your glucose and what's your ketone? Right. So anyway, I digress. No, you're not digressing. I just know that Ed's going to kill me because it's Saturday. We're almost at three hours, and I've got so many more questions for you. Okay, but I'm glad you asked the grip string question because it is precisely the issue. It is literally common sense left the building. Yes. And you literally have a world-known 60-minute news anchor hanging from a bar, and no one looks at that and goes, this is stupid. I know, I know. Listen, you're preaching to the converted, my dear. Is there any other myth buster that you can tell us right now that drives you crazy? That's a good question. There's so many, I'm sure. I know, I know. Gosh. Some myth busters. Hmm. I would say the reverse myth buster for the conversation we've had around peptides is there are indeed peptides that are tried and true, proven, and ultra high effective. Okay, tell me which ones. I would say the best studied class of peptides are the GHRH or growth hormone. We'll call them just the growth hormone peptides. Simoralin, ipimoralin, tesamoralin. We understand the role of growth hormone in human longevity. Okay. We can trigger a natural increase in production and let down very reliably using these peptides. Those are peptides. But guess what the common thread is? Tesamoralin exists as a pharmaceutical agent. It went through the entire FDA clearance process. There tends to be a connection. And so this is where Tessamorellin is a workhorse. MOTC that goes back to your original question there is actually no evidence And I looked at MOTC strategically at high doses because for me to say there some positive benefit it has to follow a logical train of thought And if you talking about mitochondrial-optimizing peptide, which is MOTC, you would expect one of two, if not two things to happen. One, fuel utilization increases. You can test that. It's called resting metabolic rate. So I looked at myself. I did the study on myself. I did every week. I did an indirect calorimetry, So a breathing test, mask on my face, checked my RMR. Didn't change. Did not change. So could there be something happening on a small scale? Yeah, but if it's not having a meaningful impact on the human, why are you taking it? But what about the difference between tessimoralin and samoralin? Yeah, huge, massive. What's the difference? Potency. Efficacy. Okay. So samoralin, in my clinical experience, has little to no effect on serum IGF-1 levels. IGF-1, oh, this is a really important thing to say. If you can't measure or quantify something, it's real hard to prove that something is or isn't working. Okay. So if you want to sell a product, pick something that can't be measured because who's going to tell you it didn't work? Yes. Brilliant, right? Yeah. That's the fundamental issue. But look at all the peptides, okay, that are on the market that do indeed work, that have been brought to market by big pharma. The common thread is you can measure a difference. There is a organism-level effect. So tessamoralin and somoralin you can measure? Well, yes. So the way we typically measure growth hormone levels is in the form of IGF-1, which is a byproduct. It's a downstream effect. It's much more stable in the bloodstream. Okay, so it's tessamoralin. So I test your IGF-1 today. I put you on a tessamoralin protocol. In six weeks, I test it again. I expect it to be 100% to 150% higher. So I can prove we went from here to here. Now we can get into... And Samoralin? Samoralin, nominal effect. Very minimal. Samoralin's worthless. Okay, but you actually... Didn't you just say the one that you like? No, I said that's the category. But within that category, Samoralin, which is the one that's being used a lot because the FDA didn't pull it from compounding. Oh. So everybody went to Samoralin. So tethamoralin is not worth the bottle it comes in. So tethamoralin is good. Tethamoralin, by far and away, the most potent. What is CJC-1295? So CJC-1295 is often combined with ipamoralin. Ipamoralin is a ghrelin agonist, and CJC is a GHRH agonist. So it's biological pathways. But CJC with ipamoralin, that combo, is very effective. It is very effective. Can you take that with tessimoralin or separate it? You can take whatever you want. If I was going to suggest someone do something, I have observed the greatest benefits with tessimoralin and ipimoralin combined. Without the other part. Correct. Right, because CJC and tessimoralin are the same mechanisms, just tessimoralin is more potent. Can you get bloated from this? Okay, so growth hormone. Let's talk about growth hormone. Because, again, this is where people go off the rails, and they're like, well, one helps with sleep. No, they don't. They just increase growth hormone. Growth hormone helps with sleep. But, yes, growth hormone as a large molecule does result in some water retention. Everybody sees it. For how long? I've always experienced it as transient. Again, if you're moderating the dose and managing the actual titrating towards your IGF-1, it should be a matter of a couple weeks. But it's very nominal. The effect is very nominal. and it neutralizes very quickly. So probably someone who's never been exposed to testosterone, which is the most potent, may experience a little added water weight. More times than not, it's not visible. It's just I get a call and they're like, oh, I gained three pounds. Yeah. You retained a little water. But it goes away. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Okay. Now I've got to ask you about NAD. Okay. Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. NAD. What's your case on NAD? So first question, do I use it in my practice? Yes, I do. Injection-based NAD, so we'll say sub-Q intramuscular IV in that order, is one, there is very much a systemic effect. Have you taken NAD? Yes, I take true nitrogen, which is NR. Good. But have you ever done like an infusion? I've gotten NAD infusions. I've gotten the NR infusion by Truniogen, which is like a – Oh, interesting. Did you know they have them? No, no, I didn't. Oh, my God. You should have them at your – like, you should put them in your longevity labs. Okay. You know why? It's with NR. Right. And you know how an NAD drip takes an hour or two hours to go in? Sure, sure. This one takes like 30 or 40 minutes. Okay. So it's like it minimizes the time. Yeah, so NAD, if you've ever done an NAD infusion, you feel it. If you open that thing up – I get so nauseous. It's terrible. It's as close as you come to having a heart attack and a respiratory thing if you really open it wide. Oh, it's so horrible. So bear in mind what you're feeling systemically is very minimal to intracellular levels. NAD and NAD+, NADH, they're an electron donor in the mitochondria. So that's inside a cell. Okay. So NAD in your bloodstream is irrelevant. It has to be in the cell. NAD cannot readily cross through a cell membrane into the cell. There's no clear carrier. So you probably get some ultra small percentage, meaning we have to give you a big slug of NAD to get a little bit in your cell. So I think what you're feeling and experiencing is largely the circulatory effects of NAD. but what matters from a longevity perspective, because NAD does two things. Again, it aids in the electron transport chain energy, fuel to energy. But the other piece is it's a cofactor in the DNA mismatch repair system, which is literally our bodies. It's wild. So every time a cell splits, you literally do copy your entire DNA to a new cell. So imagine as you age, that process keeps happening. More room for error. But we have a built-in system called the DNA mismatch repair system that NAD is a powerful cofactor that goes through literally. This is what makes the human body wild. It goes through and checks our entire genome before that cell gets the okay. Really? Yeah. So that's where NAD – so that's kind of that longevity energy piece. So NR. So then we talk about – so that's what NAD does in the cell. Okay. The tragedy is in the bloodstream doesn't count. So it's actually the precursors that establish the highest level of intracellular concentration. So what you're saying, NR, nicotinamide riboside, there's some mixed data. NR and NMN are the two precursors that are used commonly. I'm a bigger advocate for NR. I think there's more compelling data that NR is readily transported into the cell, And there's some data that says NMN is broken down to NR and then enters the cell. Bottom line, they both do in some effect. But isn't NR faster because you're missing that up there? Correct. Correct. Right. So then why would anyone take NMN? Well, the better question is why would anyone take NAD? Yeah, why would anyone take NAD? So I still use, like I said, I use it in my practice. Why? because at the doses we're using, there is likely a nominal but more immediate effect on the cell. But if you're taking it as a supplement, I take ferniogen as a supplement, is it as effective as taking it as an IV? It's more effective over time. But remember, you're building up intracellular levels. So my point is, NR should be your threshold. That should be your baseline. I would argue I don't see a ton of reasons why most people are not on NR, except maybe the cost. Do you take it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love TruNiagin. I mean, that's the workhorse. I love that. Okay, good. So, in fact, they have that new immune formula. Have you seen that? Yeah, of course. It's vitamin C and NR and stuff. Yeah. It's actually less. It's a smaller dose. It's a smaller dose. I take the TruNiagin Pro, which is 1,000 milligrams. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah. So that's why. Yeah, more from everything that I understand and have experienced personally, more is better. So your body doesn't acclimate to it? No. Again, you're taking a precursor simply because, once again, here we go to peptides. You love peptides. Well, no, it's just because you have to understand just biology at a baseline. Because everyone's injecting it. Yeah, but they don't magically, people forget that a cell is airtight, watertight. If there's not a dedicated channel or transport mechanism, just because something's in your bloodstream doesn't put it in the cell. Okay, okay. So then you're, yes. Yes, so NR, NMN, I don't feel strongly between the two. I personally use NR for the basis we just said. But that's a, you're building level over time. Because if it's not, you don't take NR today and your intracellular levels are peak. Is it really like an anti-aging workhorse? I mean, I see it as that, for the express reason what I said, as it relates to DNA health. Yes. Because what ages us is the progressive breakdown of DNA, so our cells become less and less functional or operational. So I would argue that having this potent cofactor that helps ensure accuracy of DNA reproduction is very much a longevity focus. And what I said earlier is the key, though. Remember, we said mitochondria, muscle metabolism. Anything that positively impacts on mitochondrial or improves the efficiency, by definition, is improving muscle metabolism and longevity. So that's the clearest link I have. Okay, I have a question for you, just to be counter devil's advocate a little bit. If NAD is turning your cells over... It's not. No, no, no. No, no. Yeah, I'm sorry if it came across. No, it is a critical cofactor in ensuring that when your cells turn over, they duplicate, that the DNA is accurate. Because if you introduce DNA error, that is one of the main theories of a malignant transformation, is that DNA becomes corrupt, right? And ideally, DNA becomes corrupt and something like the mismatch repair system flags it, and that goes on to be a zombie cell. Exactly, yes. But if that cell line propagates, now that error is taken into a cell lineage, that is malignant transformation in the right setting. Okay. So that's where NAD plays a role. I got you. What about aminos? So aminos to help maintain lean muscle mass, to help with energy. What is your take on those? Well, so, okay, so let's say it this way. I mean, amino acids are the building blocks. Amino acids, yeah. Yeah, the building blocks. So you have to look at complete, incomplete, and essential forms of amino acids. A complete form of protein arguably contains all nine essential amino acids. Yeah. So lean protein like chicken. So your body's breaking that down into all these different... Let's keep in mind here, because I think it goes with this conversation, like hydrolyzed collagen peptides. What's the role of collagen? So collagen is an incomplete protein source. It's only made up of three amino acids. Proven, actually, to be beneficial for skin health and joint health. So if you're taking 22 grams daily of hydrolyzed collagen peptides, for those reasons, I'm all for it. The problem is when people factor that into their daily protein intake, it's not the same. Collagen is used explicitly. I don't count it towards your daily intake. But, like, some people can't just eat that much protein a day. So is it a good idea to take, like, an amino supplement? So I would say definitely yes. I can't. I brought you a bunch. Personally, not with that. I brought you a bunch. I take these Keon aminos that are very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's an essential. So that's an essential amino. Do you like that, though? Absolutely. Okay. So do you remember there was a whole craze about BCAA? Of course. Yes, of course. But that's useless. It's not useless. No, it's actually very intentional, very deliberate. But it pales in terms of whole body effect to essentials. That's true. So Keon is an essential amino acid. Right, right. And BCAs are just a partial. Of essentials. Of essentials. So essentials, nine amino acids. Yeah. And essential amino acids, your body can't make from other things. Yes. So you have to take it in. Yes. So that's the value of supplementing essential amino acids. I use essential amino acids around training times most specifically. Uh-huh. And largely because of the concentration of leucine. Yeah. So leucine, isoleucine, valine, right? Yes. So leucine is the most critical, let me think how to say this. It's the most critical, definitely the most critical, most anabolic amino acid. That's how I'll say it. It's the most potent anabolic amino acid. We think of anabolic effects of glucose through insulin. But leucine actually is a potent stimulator of insulin. Did you know that? Yes, I did. I did. This is the problem, by the way. Go back to fasting real quick. The fatal error in fasting is essential amino acids. Some people have put out there, they're like, oh, yeah, you have your caffeine, your water, you can have essential amino acids. No, absolutely not. No, essential amino acids will kick you out of – that's why I actually avoid on a post-fast day. We're going to do a whole session on this, okay? Yeah. You promise? Yeah, I promise. Because this is the process. But leucine, so a whole protein source, I want you to avoid on your post-fast day until later in the day. Why? because you can take, so bone broth is my workhorse for post-fast day. It allows you to actually extend out your ketosis. Oh, my God, we didn't even do this part. I know, I know, I know. You're going to have to come back. You're going to have to come back. He's going to kill me, this guy. Well, he'll probably kill you first. No. Poor Ed. We're going to give Ed like a gift card. First of all, we didn't finish that whole thing. I know, I know. So that's the other, that's the super. Can you come back next week? 55,000-foot view of fasting. But it's pre-fast, walk after that last meal, walk as much as you can on the fasting day. But then again, we break our fast with bone broth. That's what I would tell anybody who's out there fasting, regardless of duration, always break with bone broth. But it goes back to the essential amino acid conversation. Okay. Because bone broth is also an incomplete source of protein. It lacks leucine. Okay? If you consume leucine, I mean, I can order you a tub of leucine, and you can do the experiment. you consume just pure leucine, you will interrupt ketosis. You will. Because leucine triggers insulin. I didn't know that. Yeah. So leucine stimulates muscle protein. The common, this is why it's, yeah, we need to do like a six-part series. We do. Because this is all, and I know people hear this stuff and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just all nerdy. But I swear to you this. No, no one's saying that. I promise you. But no, but when I make this point to my clients, I swear to you, if you understand why you're doing something, you're much more likely to do it over time. I'm convinced of that. If I tell you, do this, this, this, and this, one, you're probably going to forget. Right. Because there's no meaning to it. Yeah, exactly. You're just following a rule. But if you understand why, then why is my fasting success? Someone asked me this. Well, if you're a real advocate for fasting, what percentage of your clients are successful in completing fasting or a full protocol? Literally, it's 100%, 100% across the board. Every single one of my clients, by the end of their year partnership, will have adopted fasting as a lifestyle move. It is the most potent longevity tool. So, again, I could take 20 peptides that could work, probably don't. I could take all these pills or I could just fast. I see all these posts and like take this, this, this, and this, and here's my stack for this and blah, blah, blah, blah. And my comment always is, or you could fast. Yeah. Oh, my God. How crazy is that? You could do all this. No, no, it's not free. You actually make money fast. Yeah, you make money fast. And by the way, the last thing I'll say about fasting, the most freeing thing you can do in your life is fast because you never realize, and this is when I was sharing with you my personal journey, You never realize how much time you spend in a given day focused on food until you don't eat. I know. That's true. That is fascinating. It's fascinating. And so people are like, so on your fasting day, we try to do three movement sessions. People are like, where am I going to come up with three hours? Just don't eat. If you don't have to plan where you're getting your next meal, you don't have to door dash it. You don't have to run this way. People don't, we don't realize, this is a crazy thing, how much time as Americans we spend in food-related activities. Of course, because this is how we socialize. This is how we emotionally, like, feel our feelings. Yeah. And it's also, like, it's, like, it tastes good. Like, it's actually. Yeah, for sure. And, like, it's, like, it's, like, it's, like, what do you call it in life? It's, like, a joyful thing to do, I suppose. I totally agree. And I should also say, like, certain, like, cultures dominate around. Like, I'm Jewish. So, like, that's how we, like, socialize and connect. Sure. That's, like, an intimate thing we do. You know what I mean? Like, you're taking away the element of living when you don't eat. To me. You're German. You don't know. That's why. This is like a German. You don't care. I'm just a practical guy. You're all about efficiency. Food is fuel. Yeah, right. Food is fuel and efficiency. I'm about, like, eating and enjoying it. I see that. Yeah, no, that's totally fair. It's also like a sign of like, what do you call it? What's the word? When you cook, it's like a – I'm missing three hours. I know what – no, I get what you're saying, though. It is – and I don't discount that. Does your wife eat? Yes, yes. No, she starves. We have her on – Well, listen, you don't – We have a five-calorie diet for her. Did she also feel like food is fuel? No. I think she looks, yeah, food, I think she would be more aligned with what you're saying. But the only catch there that I would just say, just pure and simple, is whether or not I'm eating. I relate this more to alcohol consumption. Whether or not I'm drinking, you know, it really actually doesn't bother people as much as we think it will, whether or not you're also drinking with them. If you want to drink, be my guest. By the way, I don't give a shit about that. Number one, I don't drink, though. I think drinking is like the worst thing you can do for your body composition, for aging, for your health, for your sleep. Cancer, cognition. Everything. I think alcohol is by far the worst. When people always say, oh, you're, you know, you must be on something. I'm like, actually, I'm actually off something. I haven't had a drink for 30 years. Like I've never been a drinker. And even in college, I never liked the alcohol. I've been lucky that way. Yep, I agree. I've never liked the taste of it. But I think alcohol ages you an exorbitant amount. Yeah. Oh, the scientific evidence is very clear. And the horrific attempt at justifying it that, like, the ATIA crowd does, which is, oh, well, social connection is a powerful influencer of longevity. And you need alcohol for social – I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do you need alcohol? But see, here's my question to you. Why do you need food? I knew you were going to say that. It's just a question. It's not a right or wrong thing. I know, but listen. It's just something to think about. I agree. That was the word I was looking for earlier. Food is a social lubricant or connection. Oh, lubricant. Yeah, for sure. Okay, because you go on dates. You have date night. You have lunch. You have lunch. You're right. What I do a lot is I go for walks with people. I have all these non-negotiables in my life. Right. It's too mild. All the things you do without, and that's the gap for general American population is, and that's why, you know, people being intentional about movement seems so stupid to say. It's so stupid. But it's only because we live in a society where. Jonathan, you know what I just realized? I would, and now I would see why you didn't. That fell in the pool. What? No, what I was going to say is I sent you over a text. So we can have lunch after or something. You didn't respond to that. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, but now I know why, because you don't eat food. Well, just at intervals. You can walk to coffee at intervals. At intervals. Okay. But it doesn't, I think. It doesn't matter now, because it's already 100, it's like 100 o'clock. But, okay, wait, we've got to wrap this, because Ed probably did fall on the phone. We've got to get a pulse check for Ed. It's been like three plus hours. If you come do another one, Ed's probably going to see me and be like swearing under his breath. It's actually okay to do three and a half hours. It's just probably not the greatest on a Saturday when he, you know what I mean? Because I don't really care, but he's probably like really pissed. Okay, anyway, I will get a gift card, actually. Jonathan, this is part one of a podcast. We're going to do like another one. I'd love it. Super soon. When can you come back? Oh, man. We're going to have to figure it out. When do you think you can come back? I'm like on the spot this moment. I probably going to be a few weeks. I've got Toronto coming up. I've got Argentina coming up. We've got a lot. It's okay. Don't worry. I'm leaving town too. We can do it. No, we will. I would love to, and I will say this just outright for your audience, like fire the questions away. I mean, I think there's so much opportunity to improve upon a lot of the assumptions that exist. And the thing I stress is it's not about right or wrong. I get that the algorithm favors controversy and really extremes, but the truth lies in the nuance. And if we simplify down to things that move the needle most. Yes, I agree with you. Am I critical about all these different stacks and biohacks? No. What moves the needle most is movement. Yeah, 100%. Right? Yep. What's the second thing? Sleep? Sleep. Sleep is foundational. If it's off, and I'll go so far as to say this, my clients know this to be true. Do what you have to do to get quality sleep. What I mean by that is if it requires a pharmaceutical agent for you to get quality sleep, quality sleep is the metric. What do you think is more important, sleep or movement? Ooh, ooh. If it really was one against the other, I'd say movement. Movement is way more impactful for metabolic health. I think so, too. But sleep. That's a controversial one. Sleep is what people, and again, the niche I sort of practice in in my practice is high performers. That's the name of the game. A hundred people. We're both wearing our same thing. Yeah. And the commonality between high performers, high output individuals, is the wheels are always going. So I would say most consistently, the most common issue I see with clients that's correctable is sleep hygiene, sleep architecture. Okay. That's it. That's where it's at. That's it? Okay. This is, you guys, Dr. Jonathan Sheff. He is, as you can see, a fountain of information. This has been very informative. Go follow him. We're going to do another part two, hopefully maybe a part three. It's been like, what, three hours plus? It doesn't feel about it. I can keep on going. I've got great endurance. We can go for another hour. We just got to find out. Yeah, we got to find out. Okay, guys, if you have not subscribed, by the way, to this podcast, I should have said this at the beginning, please subscribe. It really helps with everything. And give me some feedback on stuff you'd like to hear, things that you want more information on, less information on, and everything in between. So thank you for listening. Thank you for coming to the podcast. It's a pleasure. Thank you. And we'll see you soon. Bye-bye.