Today on the Chef's Cut, Joe and I are talking about the controversial New York Times list of the 100 best restaurants in New York City that just came out. We're starting with what people are saying about our previous guest, chief food critic LaGaia Michonne and her picks. It makes more sense if you almost read it in no particular order. And what has people all in their feelings about this list? They ask the question, well, what is a restaurant? Right. We also have an exciting announcement about the newest companion to the Chef's Cut podcast family. Our little company is growing and we want to hear from you, Chef's Cut Nation. Head to the comments and share your list of the top restaurants in your city. And while you're at it, be sure to subscribe and rate and review wherever you get your pods because it really does help. We are back with more breaking news from the news desk, from New York, from your home this week. So friend of the pod, LaGaia. Yes. In the news again. Chief food critic for the New York Times. Chief food critic for the New York Times comes out with her list of a hundred best restaurants in New York City. Yeah. Bold. Bold list. Bold list. And I think first and foremost, whatever you're making a list, right? It's always going to ruffle feathers. And I feel like there's always been this food writer versus like, you know, they call them like listicles. Yes. You know, the articles that are lists. Right. And I feel like how so many publications have just become listicles, you know, maybe Eater 38, the Infatuation 24, whatever it is. Buzzfeed. Yeah. Yes. Top 10 donuts that are not pink in, you know, Portland. So I think, you know, for this coming out, a hundred best restaurants in New York is like one, it's an insurmountable test, right? Right. Because I mean, there's unbelievable amount of restaurants in New York. But so it's a really broad ranging list, right? Huge range. That's, that's something that has gotten a lot in these lists. Like Ligaya Mashaun is, she's a very thoughtful food writer. And we see that in her writing, but we also saw that when she came on the podcast and talked about her reasoning when she had that infamous Elinia review that came out and she talked about her reasoning. She talked about, and she didn't shy away from any of our questions. I mean, huge respect for that. We had a great conversation with her. And the way she thinks about things I think is, is really cool. So I, on one hand, I love this list. On the other hand, if part of the criteria, which isn't necessarily as spelled out, but the criteria is like the New Yorkiness of a restaurant, then there are so many places that are quintessentially New York that aren't necessarily on here. And that's something that a lot of people have said, like Tom Calico, Eli Sussman, you know, like, you know, everybody's got their, their IG accounts talking about the list. We're going to make a list of a hundred best restaurants in New York City. No criteria. It's going to be based just on that, but they'll all be like essentially New York, but we want to include some places that are quintessentially New York. It won't be clickbaity at all. You'd think there'd be some standardized metric at which all the restaurants could be weighed against each other, but there won't be. One thing that Ligaya says is these are meant to spark debate. These are meant to get you to think about them and maybe try something because I don't care if you, if you don't live in New York, but if you look at this list and you see there's a place that does traditional kachipuri, you may not live in New York, but check your town, check your city that you live in and say, I wonder what cuisines people are cooking here that I haven't tried yet. So that's the thing. Like, yes, this is a list of restaurants in New York, but you can extrapolate this to any city. You can say, okay, well, you know what? I haven't been to Ukrainian village in Chicago in a while or I live in, I live in Iowa and I haven't been to Chinatown in Des Moines before. So maybe let me go check that out. And Joe, like you mentioned, Ligaya Mashaun is a friend of the pod. We had her on back in like what October? October November, somewhere around there. And she talked about doing the research and starting to go out to restaurants to look at for this list. And remember how she talked about price points and accessibility. She did. She did. And I think that was an interesting thing. And I think you see it at the list where she brought up that, you know, not just looking at a place from like good to good, but like what is it, you know, cost to go there? What does it feel like? And so I think, you know, you see that through line in her list. How much does the price point affect how you see the restaurant? You know, right now we're at a moment something like 13.5% of American households face food insecurity. So this is just something I think about we cannot all afford to eat like this. I'm cost playing as somebody who can afford to eat at these restaurants because the New York Times is paying for it. I try to think, is this a place I would come back and spend my own money? You know, there's so many things on here that are very small mom and pop kind of places. And this is one of the first times that I've seen this many like Pete Wells top 100 list. He had that same mix. Don't get me wrong. But I feel like there's a lot more deliberate work that LaGaia did taking the train to the end of the line. And she said walking 20 or 40 blocks sometimes to find these restaurants. So these aren't places that are necessarily all in Manhattan. I mean, the Bronx got a couple of places on here. Like these are places in in Flushing in Brighton Beach. Like these are places that I've never even been. I've been to Flushing. I've never been to Brighton Beach. Like there are places in New York that I have never been to those neighborhoods. Yeah. And I mean, I think there's a lot of interesting things about it, right? There's just there's a ton of hits on this list. If you're featured on a list of the best 100 restaurants in New York, no matter where you fall on it, it's a really good placement. You know what I mean? Just by sure volume, right? Yeah. But I think one of the most interesting questions I heard brought up after I saw the article for the first time and I forgot who brought it up, but they asked the question, well, what is a restaurant? Right. You know, and I think that is really interesting to me because the other thing on here there's street vendors, there's food trucks, there's stuff like that. So it's like, you know, and like obviously this is a guy's list. So it's, you know, whatever the hell she wants it to be. Right. There's no this isn't Michelin. This isn't beer. This isn't, you know, 50 best. There's no right committee. There's no rules. This is the hundred shit I like best. Right. You know what I mean? This is just whatever the fuck I like. And I think that's really cool from a perspective, but it almost reads more to me. Like somebody, if they said, Hey, I'm coming to New York. Where should I go? Mm hmm. Like, give me a list of New York places to hit. Right. Like, not like this is the hundred best restaurants in New York, but this is a hundred places you should go in New York. OK. And I almost think it makes more sense if you almost read it in no particular order. Once you get past the top 10, I agree with that. But I think in the top 10, in that order, I think those are some really profoundly cool dining experiences that I think people should try for sure. OK, so let's break this down like we did when the beard list came out, right? So remember, throwback to the beard shortlist came out and we got we got everything off our chest and we talked about it. So let's talk about this in the same way. Kabawa number one, I'm here for it. I love it. I think it is such a special restaurant and I think it's changing so much about dining and the way people look at food and different cultures and accepting them. Joe, you came to New York not that long ago and you said, where should I go to eat? I have one dinner out. You were doing the today show and you were here with Hilary and two of your business partners and you said, where should I go out for dinner tonight? Should I stay somewhere close to my hotel? This is where we're staying. Or should I just take the cab ride over to Kabawa? And I said, 100 percent go to Kabawa. And I think I made your reservation for you so that you guys. I do appreciate it. It's because we've talked so much about it. I'm like, you have one meal in New York. You have to go to Kabawa. You absolutely have to. And I think it was a good call. I've been there like two, three times. But what did you think? Tremendously good. You sit up at the counter there. It's really fun. The food's really delicious. It's thoughtful ingredients that stuff that made a lot of sense. It was really good and the spices and just like, you know, I mean, the whole experience of it is really cool, right? You're right on the kitchen. You know, the prefix kind of style to it, I think is really neat and interesting of like, you know, it's not full tasting menu, but it's still kind of a guided journey. Yeah, which I think is nice when you're going into a cuisine. You don't know what's on about. Like I want someone to tell me, like, hey, like eat these things. It'll be really good. So the whole visa, Kabawa, come out number one, Theresa number three, Yamada, Sushi place number two. I haven't been there, but I do want to go. I mean, there are some Medjoo, Hoonie Kim, the chef of Medjoo had a restaurant called Donji back in the day, which after Youngsik opened, Youngsik is also on this list. Youngsik is the only three Michelin Star Korean restaurant in the city. Hoonie Kim, who's the chef of Medjoo, opened Donji not long after Youngsik opened and changed the game in New York for Korean dining. I remember one time we got these clay pots that were placed over this little flame. And I was like, OK, great. What are they putting in here for us? They're like, oh, it's the season for Cod sperm. And I'm like, cool, I guess I guess. Tonight, I forgot it was Cod sperm season. I don't know. Right. Hoonie put it on my calendar this year. Next time my alert will go off, so I know to go to Donji. But he's been he's been such a big player in the food scene in New York for a long time. So I'm so glad to see him getting his flowers of Medjoo. Jean George at number five. I mean, that is I've I've always had good meals there. I haven't been in a long time, but Jean George at number five. A lot of people were surprised by that. I've never I've never been there. You really cannot speak on George. Oh, gee, New York play. So when I was a line cook at La Bernardin, Jean George had a you could get a prefix lunch and it was like 30 something bucks. It was the best value in the city. It it eventually had gone up to like 50 something and even at 50 something, it was still a value. So like all the line cooks from every restaurant in New York, it's like who's doing lunches on George because that was one of the only places we could afford. That was lunch at Blackbird at Chicago. Like Adam is on here. Aquavit, Sema. John George at five, I think makes my point more valid of like you like this list better if you take it out of order. If you take it as this is 100 places, you should you should go because I think your argument for it is a really good argument of like this is, you know what I mean? It's quintessential that like I've never had a bad meal there. It's really, really good. It's all of this. Is it the fifth best restaurant in New York City? OK, I see what you mean now as we live and breathe. I don't know. You know what I mean? For me, I've never eaten there, so I can't say definitively. But if I thought of my top five, that wouldn't even be on my radar. And maybe that's the point is that it should be right. But I think like if I look at this list as like this is 100 places I should eat out of New York, then you're saying to me, John George is one of the top ones. If we're doing a meal like that, if we're going out and I think they're only two Bischold stars now, but I'll still keep them in the three round from, you know, experience and price wise. Right. If we're looking at having a dinner that's a La Bernardin, that's a John George. That's a 11 Madison Park, which is not on this list. Right. Shocker. Shocker. Whoa. John George should be higher on your consideration than you think. If you're thinking of a Danielle, it ranks 50 places higher than the list. And it's crazy because I mean, there are a few fine dining on here. But the classic old school of New York ones, John George, Danielle and La Bernardin. Saga is also on there, which I think is a phenomenal restaurant. Also, but there you don't see a ton of fine dining. You see a lot. Adamix is also on here. Aquavis on there. Yeah. Semos on there. That's fine dining. That is. You're right. Sushi show. But you're not seeing like Per se 11 Madison. Yeah. Per se. I did not realize that no per se on this list. No per se, no EMP. That is one I did love via Corota at 13. Yes. I think via Corota, the importance of that restaurant for people who cook Italian food in the United States is so undervalued. You know what I mean? Because I think like stylistically what they do for me is wildly of fluential. You know what I mean? It's a restaurant I reference all the time. Their cookbook is a cookbook I reference all the time. First time I ever met Missy Robbins, I had lunch at via Corota with her. And Missy's on here with Lillian. Oh, that's so awesome. But I think like, you know, Lillian, I think would be a restaurant you would consider having influenced by via Corota. Yeah, I could see that. So I think like that's fair. I think the placement there makes a ton of sense. So I'm super happy to see via Corota get their flowers on that. Me too. I think it's one of those places to me that like can't be, you know, like pumped up enough of like how good it really is and like how how important it really is. Yeah. When people ask me, where should I go in New York? I am always telling them via Corota is in my five that I tell people to go to because it isn't pretentious. You know, you're going to have a phenomenal meal no matter when. And I love the food. I've always loved the food and it's been consistently awesome. There are so many restaurants on here that I love like Tatiana that I've had phenomenal meals at over the years, too. And I mean, Tatiana was number one on the times list two years in a row, I think, and they came in this year at 12, but they were number one, two years in a row. And they have been consistently amazing for the years that they've been open. Another restaurant I was super pumped to see on here. Now, this was far off. So for you knowing White Bear, for me, this would be double a bakery in Brooklyn. Now, this is Trinidadian doubles. I loved this place when I lived in Bed-Stuy. Around the time like I had first moved to New York, I was still bartending. I was working in culinary school during the day bartending at night. Double a bakery was off of the A train near my stop in Bed-Stuy. And I would get there back then it was like a dollar fifty or two dollars. And you would get two doubles. So you have the roti and it's stuffed with the Chana, the chickpeas, the potatoes. They put the tamarind sauce or the chutney, whatever sauces you want in there. And they twist it up in the paper and they send you on your way. And they are so frickin delicious. I was so pumped to see them on here. I love them. I mean, Four Horsemen is that. Oh, yeah. And I think like Four Horsemen, that's a restaurant that I ate at 10 years ago. That's a restaurant that I ate at, I think, you know, six months ago when I was in New York over the summer. And they're up for outstanding this year. They made it to the shortlist. And I mean, and I know they get theirs, right? You know, I mean, they're, you know, wildly cool. And obviously, you know, I think James Murphy of LCD Sound Systems, you know, being a part of it. It's, you know, somebody from one of my favorite bands of all time, too, is also part of one of my favorite restaurants. I think like that one made a lot of sense to me. Is really cool. You know, La Bernardette ends at 21. And it's just like it's just like. But how do you compare La Bernardette to Four Horsemen? Right, right. Like it's it's, you know, comparing Mozart to, you know, to be like. ASAP Rocky LCD Sound Systems. You know, it'd be like, it'd be like, which is a better band. Yes. It's like, well, are they both even bands? Like, you know, like, and I think that's that's a hard part of the list. Like that's why I like looking at it with the idea of like. There's not a place on here that I don't want to try. That I'm like, I wouldn't eat there. Or that if there's any place on here that I have eaten where I'm like, I wouldn't go back, right? Not on there where I saw one where I was like, I ate there. I wouldn't go back there and I wouldn't recommend it to people. You know, it's like it's bangers on bangers on bangers. Shoukette Aisha was on the pod. Shoukette is on here. She's also up for Best Chef New York this year. Lola's Suzanne Cupps. She was the chef working for Michael Anthony when they had untitled at the Whitney. She's like she's a stalwart of a New York chef. She's on here. Ty Dyer. Amazing. Estella. Estella, I think, is one of those ones where it's like, because I think like also like you and I have like obviously wild different perspectives on New York, right? Because you live there. You're in it. You've worked in New York. You've been in that scene for 20 years now. But like for me, it's always a tourist city for me, right? It's I'm always coming as a visitor. Anyone who I talk to about it, who's going to eat in New York is not a New Yorker. I mean, nobody who lives in New York is asking me where to eat in New York. Obviously, right? So it's it's always people visiting from other cities saying, hey, I'm going to New York. So it's always like, hey, where are you staying? And if it's your first time in New York, there's so many places on this list where I'm like, if this is your first time in New York, the one that's not on the list that's shocking to me is one that I send people to all the time is Grammarcy Tev. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Michael Anthony, I'm surprised too. That is a quintessentially New York place. I think just everything about like the food, I think is awesome. I've never had a bad meal there. I think the service there is top tip. Phenomenal. And for me as an outsider, someone who doesn't live in New York and just gets to go and cosplay New York for a couple of days at a time. I think like if you are coming from another city and you want to have a lunch and pretend like you are really in New York for an hour and a half or two hours, like, I don't know if I've had a better version of that than Grammarcy Tavern. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So that's surprising to me. And maybe that's just an outsider perspective as a Chicagoan of like, oh, this is so cool. It's so New York and people, you know, New York, it's not that New York, but I love it. So I was very, very surprised by that. That's a good point. You know, another restaurant, I was surprised that didn't make it on this list that I had an amazing meal at. And I think I told you about it after Stephen and I went there, a restaurant called Bong. Yeah, you've been talking about this place. I have not been, I'm not familiar with it, but you were, you were gassed it up pretty hard. I thought the food there was so good and I did not see Bong on the list. So I was surprised by that, especially because La Gaia did have such a strong focus on like a lot of mom and pop kind of restaurants that are off the beaten path, kind of doing different cuisines. And Bong is doing Cambodian cuisine, which isn't a huge thing, even in New York, even though we have a pretty sizable community. Um, but it's, it's a little hipster. It's a little cool. It's a little fun and funky, but it is still very mom and pop in that the chef, she and her husband own and run the place. She's the chef. He runs front of house and hospitality and the wine program, um, along with some of their team, but I thought the food was so good. And I do see some of the Southeast Asian representation on the list, but I was really surprised that Bong was not on the list this year. The other one for me is Res Dora at 63. I think the food he cooks there is probably the closest food I've seen to like what like Michelin food in Italy looks like a place that I've been, places I've stashed at where it's like true Italian fine dining. I think it's definitely the chef. Yeah. It's definitely set. And I think like what he does there is like, it is like pure. It is beautiful. And it's fine dining. Like, you know, like he belongs on the list without a doubt, but for me, that one could be ran up way further up from the sixties. Yeah, I've heard amazing things. I have to admit, I've never actually been there yet. I've met Stefano and his wife, but I have never been there. Yeah. I think because it's Italian, it gets a little undervalued there of like, you know what I mean? It's not treated as like the same as like the fine dining French, because it's like they're still serving pasta and it's like a heavy pasta menu. But it's like, like the skill and the technique he has in that food is so high level. Yeah. So high level. Like it's food that looks super simple and approachable, but is so technical. It is so high level of difficulty to execute at the level he executes it. To me, it's like super happy to see them on the list again. But for me, that's one where it's like, I don't know. I could put that at a top 25 easily. Okay. So let's talk about one place that you and I have both been to separately. And we've talked about before that's on the list. I can't remember the number, but it is. Una pizza, Napoleana. I don't know. Pizza, Napoleana. I believe it's on here. It was right next to white bear. So I want to say it's eating. Oh, okay. So I like the place. So I went and it was later in the evening. Definitely had like a late reservation. And at that time of night, because one person makes all the pizza one person. So you definitely wait longer the later you go because orders are a little bit backed up, but it is a beautiful space. The pizza was really good. It's got those blistered charred edges and I'm not as familiar. I have not traveled to the birthplaces of pizza, but the dough has a little bit more chew to it. It's not, it's not stretchy, but it has a little bit more of that chew to it. So you were telling me that's more classic, right? Well, I mean, for me, I think it's just a texture that Italians really, really love and you see play out through Italian cuisine as like chewy as a texture in a super positive way, as opposed to I think like in American food and like, you know, French fine dining, like classic food where you and I, you know, came up cooking, it was like everything was like tender, tender, tender, right? Everything's soft. Everything's, you know, delicate. Everything should be cut with a fork and like, Una is the opposite of that. And I think it's a polarizing place for some people because some people just really don't like that style of pizza. But I think, you know, and I've eaten there and I think it's, in my opinion, is a masterclass in that style. Yeah. Style of pizza, like the dough, because it's about the dough, you know what I mean? And it's so flavorful. You know what I mean? For something so simple that he could build that much flavor into just a piece of pizza dough is like, it's like that place is like romantic. It is. You know what I mean? Like he's one dude. You know, like I hit it just making these like, this is just the way I want to do it. I thought he was doing all the stretching and then somebody next to him would do the sauce and the garnish because you've got every ticket. Everybody has a different order. There's not a huge variety. There is a decent amount of variety though, on there for one person to be doing it. And so I was like, oh, clearly he's going to stretch the dough and then somebody's going to come in and start dressing these pizzas. And then maybe he's going to be the one who puts them in the oven. But nope, he's stretching. He's putting the toppings and the sauce. He's putting it in and out of the oven. So I was like, OK, there's another pizza place that opened here called Pizza Studio Tamaki. It's a Japanese pizza. I've actually been in Tokyo. Did you? Oh, they're opening one in New York. I can't wait to go to Tokyo. OK, we got to talk offline about this. So let's talk about like we did with Beard List. Let's talk about some of the trends that we see on this list of 100. And remember when we talked about Beard, one of the things that we saw there, which I'm also seeing here is the wine focus restaurant, Borgo chambers, like all these places are known for their amazing wine programs. So I saw that kind of trend extended here to this list. Yeah, I think we saw a lot of that in here. I would say the other thing we see in here, which is really interesting, because I don't think you see a lot of on this list is like places that are like a dish or two specific. Mm hmm. Yes. You know, I mean, I'm like, oh, it's like there's an Albanian Burke place on the list. Right. There's, you know, the carnitas place on the list. There's a tamale place. There's dumpling place, whatever you be. But I think like that is a cool part of it is like where it's like you can't go there and get everything, right? You but like there's something here that is worth going for, like go get that thing. And I thought like that was a really interesting, but it's a through one. You know what I mean? And I mean, I think even, you know, Una, you could throw it to that list of like, it's a pizza place, right? That where it's like you just go for pizza. And so I think like that's really an interesting through line to this list to be as well. That's something I actually wanted to ask you about. Sure. So does because there's another place on here that is like a mom and pop kind of hole in the wall place that she called out for having amazing dosa, you know, super thin, crisp, they get folded. And then you have this massive dosa that you use to dip into different things. And then so many of the descriptions really call out one dish at these restaurants, maybe not multiple. Does one dish make something a great restaurant? Depends on any dishes they have. That's what I was curious about. I mean, that's that's a hard thing. That's why, again, this list is better if you look at it as just 100 places you should eat in New York and not the hundred best restaurants in New York. I think it serves better because when I look at this list, my number one thing is I'm like, I would love to go through it. You know, I'd love to sit with it, you know, check box and go through it. And I would be like, you know, I have a running list in the notes in my phone. That is NYC next time. And it's just a list with bubbles next to it. And half of them are filled in and half of them aren't every time I eat it. When I just click the bubble being that I ate at that place. And so I look at this list kind of like that, where I'm like, I'd love to just go top to bottom and eat at every single one of these places. And I think like that's a beautiful thing of this piece is because like for me, food writing should be the idea is to get people to restaurants, get people to experience their city in a way they're not thinking about getting people to a restaurant they've never been like that's good food writing to me where it's like makes you even more excited to get on the train and go to Queens. All right. So AGT's a little bit earlier, but you got to give me the down low on this new podcast you got rolling out, but. Oh yes, Joe, our little company is growing. We are launching our second podcast. Our next podcast is called Eating History. And this is going to be a deep dive into one food per season, probably about eight episodes and season one is about pizza. We're tracing it from its origins before it was pizza and how all these components came together all the way through where it is currently today and where we see it going in the future. Yeah. I mean, as chefs, you know, we're huge history nerds. We're huge nerds. Hence we both sit in front of a bunch of books that we fill with shelves because we love reading about food as much as we love cooking food and eating food. So I think for us, any chance we get the opportunity to devour even more information about it in any medium is always, always super exciting and talking about one of my favorite things, pizza. So that is very, very exciting. Yeah, we talked a lot about pizza earlier and this all kind of started because as much of a nerd as I am, you know, I married, I married the king of the nerds. So I'm doing, doing the podcast with Steven, with my husband, because he was a history major in college before he went to law school. So he's all about history, research, deep diving into things. And he was already a big food lover when we met. I mean, he's from New Orleans. So we kind of combined the mutual nerdiness with our mutual love for food. Obviously he had mad trash to talk about deep dish. I will not stand for it in this house, but he calls it a casserole. Got to let him know. Got to let him know age. So yeah, it's really cool. So we started the podcast. It's actually going to launch on May 20th. So we've got first two episodes are going to drop together. And then after that, every episode is going to come out on the following Wednesday. So the day after the chef's cut drops. Well, very exciting. Cannot wait to give that a listen. Yes. All right. Well, next time I'm in New York, it sounds like we got quite a bit of pizza eating to do there, buddy. Yes, we do. For sure. Well, we'll call it research, you know. Yeah, it sounds like research. I think with pizza, we can get six in in one day, right? Well, in an afternoon. That is it for this episode of the chef's cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can get full length videos of every episode. And be sure to follow us on IG at the chef's cut pod. For Joe Flam, I'm Adrienne Cheetham, and this has been the chef's cut life beyond the pass.
