2801: 3 Ways to Build Muscle and Endurance (How you Should Approach your Training)

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So I've looked up, recently I looked up studies that compared these. And what they find is results are either similar or a little better for certain versions, but it depends on what you're looking for. If you just want the physical attributes, then there's better options. If you want the physical attributes to apply to a particular skill, then there's other options that are better. In other words, like if you want to get better at a particular skill, like cycling, running, or playing a sport, there's a better way to approach it. If you want, you know, if you like, enjoy a workout a particular way, there's value in other ones. And then if you just want to do it because you don't really care about the skill acquisition as much as you like the physical attributes, overall endurance, overall strength, then there seems to be a better option. And then, of course, our trainer minds, this is the part that I'm looking forward to, is where we can go in and kind of speculate on the kind of person that would enjoy each one of these versions. Because ultimately, that's what matters, right? It's your consistency over time. And I think that's the questions that I have for you after we get through these is, and it's early right now, I know, for you. But it'll be interesting to see if you find that the approach that you're doing, which is obviously research shows that the way you're going about it is the best way for what you're trying to accomplish. But then back to your point about the trainer brain, if you find it, it's actually more difficult to be consistent with it. If you don't like it. Yeah, it doesn't matter, right? Who cares? Then it's like they go with one of the other. Totally. So there's three main ways to do this. Now, this is just overgeneralizing because the workout programming is much more specific than this, right? There's also what happens in the workout is very important. But generally speaking, there's three main ways you can approach this problem. One is you train both strength and endurance in the same workout. The second option is you do different workouts. So Monday may be strength and then Tuesday may be endurance and so on. So alternating in the same week. And then there's a third option, which is probably the least known, maybe even the least popular, where it's one week focused on strength, one week focused on endurance. So it's like totally broken up. And so those are the three main ways. Let's break down each of them and kind of talk about, you know, what their value may be and who they may work for. So I guess with the first one, the same workout. Now, in this, to me, when I think of this, this reminds me of, like, CrossFit-style training or what people would label as conditioning or something like that. I think it's the most popular. I've seen it the most with, like, hybrid athletes or, like, people that are, like, trying to gain and acquire both these attributes. I see that they just sort of merge them both into the same workout primarily. I can also see where this is probably, it would be interesting to see if we could compare all these, the easiest to be consistent with. Because you're already there. And so let's say you're inconsistent with the days on which you show up to the gym. And so if you have thought this thought process of, oh, I'm going to have these endurance days, I'm going to have these training days. It's like this. and it's like, oh, what happens when I miss one or the other? Versus whether I make three days this week or five days this week, every session looks like a blend of the two of them. Yeah. So I bet there's a big argument for even though this is probably, of the three, it's the least successful way to go about this, it may be one of the more consistent or successful ways. Yeah, I mean, I see your point. I can see how that would work, especially if you're somebody that really hates one and likes the other one. You might end up missing the ones you hate more often. Right. Although for me, it's a little different, which we'll get to. So I can see that. I can also see, like, if you're in a sport that requires both at the same time, you're going to need to practice that skill. In other words, let's say you compete in CrossFit. Okay. Part of your CrossFit training is going to be getting good. It's not just going to be strong in endurance. It's going to be getting good at competing in the event. And the event itself oftentimes combines everything in one. Well, I think this, too, is part of – I see this a lot. Like, they get attracted to the event style, and then the event becomes the training. Yes. So there's no separation of that. There's no improvement on each aspect of it. It's just like you're so focused on the enjoyment and the experience of the event that you bring that in the workout, and then it doesn't really – you can't really decide what's working. Not only that, that type of person also is only getting in shape when they're signed up for the event. It reminds me of my clients that were the marathon runners, right? Like, hey, I need to get in shape, so I signed up for a marathon. It's like that is always all. They needed to have this end goal, and that would get them back into working out for that period of time. And then what would inevitably happen? Marathon would happen, and then afterwards they would fall off the wagon, and then just repeat the cycle. In my experience, too, there's another kind of person that would probably like this, and that's the person that views or enjoys the – they like the sweat. Yeah. They like the conditioning part of the workout itself. Like, for them, a workout is that. These kind of people had a tough time. In my experience, I can think of a person who has a tough time with just strength training. Yeah. Like, this is boring. I'm too bored. I got to rest. You know, and now when I used to train people, I'd force them to do it because I'm training you. So I can make it enjoyable by hanging out with you. But there's a lot of people where, you know, this is why they work out. They like the workout part of it, the part that makes them feel like they're struggling and having a tough time. And so blending it together to them is what they enjoy doing. Now, this is far less specific. But, again, if this is how you enjoy training, and especially if you're competing in a way that combines all this, there's going to be a component of needing to combine it all because that's what your competition is going to ask. Well, I just, I was thinking of the person that classifies themselves as I'm in shape. Yeah. Like, just in shape people, like, really gravitate towards this merger of, like, strength training and endurance, like, combined. Totally. Now, one of the detriments of this is the, you're not separating. You're not reading the max benefits of either. Yeah, and not only that, but you're not separating the mental aspect of each. What I mean by that is there's a mental approach and understanding that goes with strength training. and it's a very different one than there is for conditioning or endurance. It's a very different approach. And sometimes it's hard for people to, or should I say it's better to separate them so they can understand what strength training should feel like because that's all I'm doing. And then they understand what, you know, stamina and endurance training feel like because that's all I'm doing. When you kind of blend it all together, it's like eating a dish with three different courses on it and you put them all on one fork and eat it. Like, you're not really experiencing the steak by itself or the vegetables by themselves or the starch by themselves. You're kind of getting this blend of all three, which is okay. But you don't really ever develop the real understanding of just the steak or just the vegetables or just the starch. So this is 100% who I was for the first, like, 10 years of lifting for me. And I wrestle a lot with, like, what version of me. Oh, I see. Do I prefer or like better? You know, funny, we had a challenge. I'm sure it will go up on social media soon here, where the staff tried to get us to balance on a V-bar. We all failed. And just like Justin, I got really frustrated. And why I got really frustrated is because that was the type of stuff I used to do. I used to incorporate a lot of that shit into my workouts. You know what I'm saying? And not for any other reason to say I could do it and stuff like that. That's cool. And, yeah, it was cool. It was fun. I trained a lot like this. We're supersetting and circuits. And then the other days doing plyos. I mean, I just, again, remember I talked about how, you know, I took a lot of pride and no workout ever looked the same. And I was really overall fit. But I definitely wasn't the strongest I'd ever been. I wasn't the most aesthetic I'd ever been. But I was overall fit. And I think back to all those attributes that I had, and there's some of them that I miss and I want to get back, you know what I'm saying? Especially when it gets highlighted like that, like I can't do this and I should be able to do this. But then I also go, you know, I do like that I've put on a lot of muscle and I've gotten really strong and I have a way better aesthetic physique than that kid did. I trained way less, look better, and I'm stronger than that guy who was training his ass off. And ironically, that guy wanted what I have today, but I trained the wrong way to do it, and I had all those other attributes. So I wrestle with that a lot of times because there are some benefits to training this way. Totally. But I think the most important thing to communicate, and I think where we come from, because we've trained so many clients, is most clients come to you with an aesthetic goal. They want to change their body. They want general health, general fitness. Yes. But they want the aesthetic. But they want to look better. Yeah, they want to look better. Of course they want to feel better. Of course they want to have some sort of endurance and stamina. Of course that's part of that. But they really are like, I don't like the way I look and the way I feel. But it's look up the top. Exactly. Exactly, yeah. And so when we communicate, we always communicate from that because that's 90% of the people are looking for that. So the people that always grumble when we talk about this and they're like, oh, I love my CrossFit or I love this weight training. I'm not talking to you. You represent the 10% or less that never miss workouts, love training this way, was the 25-year-old version of me, and I get it. So, like, train your way if you want to. But if you come to me, if that same person came to me and goes, man, I really want to devote my delts more and I wish I looked like this. There's an objectively better way to go about it. So we just have to highlight that. Yes. That's right. All right. The next option is different workouts. So one day would be strength training. One day would be endurance or cardio. Now, this, typically the people that tend to employ something like this either really like strength training or really like endurance. And it just looks different. If you really like strength training, it's typically strength training focused with some cardio thrown in on off days. And these are the aesthetically driven people. They want to get lean. They like sculpting their body. Bodybuilders sometimes, pre-contest is what their routine looks like. It's like I lift and then I do a little cardio. And sometimes and oftentimes they're on different days. And then you have endurance athletes. I trained a lot of clients like this where they were either triathletes or marathon runners. Most of the workouts during the week were endurance for them. And then there were a day or two where it was just strength training. And so this is a good approach. Now, you can have a balanced approach as well, but I think this approach is good for people who are focused more on one versus the other because then it's just which one I devote more time to. And the other one plays more of a supporting role than playing the main actor in this particular movie. And, again, it's like now you can mix it all up, but, again, which one do you want more of? I think this allows. Yeah, the only downside I think is you get kind of in rhythms and to shift your intention going from one specific thing to the next, which we'll get into the other version. But I think that that might be one thing to point out is like each workout itself, you have to kind of gear yourself psychologically and kind of prep yourself a little differently. Well, after we share the third one and then Sal goes in to share his story, I'm going to share with you how I've been doing things, which is closer to this, but it's a modified version of that. And so I'm really interested to get to the third one, share what you're doing and how you're going about it. And then I'll tell you what I've been doing now for several weeks now. And it's kind of a modified version of this. And so we'll get to that. Okay. So then you have this third version, which is far less known and less popular. But this occurred to me after reading a study where they compared different ways of training for endurance and strength. And one of the ways that they trained these athletes, volume was equated for, by the way, was one week strength, one week endurance. It actually outperformed for both endurance and strength. The physical attributes or the physical expressions of both. What I mean by that is if you have a specific skill that you want to apply this to, it's probably not a good way to train. because if I'm getting good at running or trying to be good at swimming, I need to practice that often. I don't just need endurance. You can have tons of endurance, but if your skill is off, then endurance is not going to apply very well because you're not efficient with your movement. But if you just want general endurance and strength, what the study showed was one week focus on one, one week focus on the other, and it seems to be a better approach. Now, here's why I'm doing this. And I could see where this would apply to a lot of people who struggle with falling in love with one of these attributes. Like training for endurance and stamina, I could care less. It's boring. I'm not getting a pump. I'm not getting jacked. I'd much rather be lifting weights. Okay. But if I give myself a full week of this is all I'm focusing on, next week I'll get back to my lifting. So I'll look forward to that. But I'm going to wait until next week. What it allows me to do is have a full week of getting into it. There's momentum behind it. Momentum of really trying to really appreciate what I'm getting from it, really appreciate the mental effects, the physical effects, see the endurance build up towards the end of the week, and know that I'm not going to lose more muscle doing it this way. It would be the same things if I did it alternating days. It's just I'm in it. And this reminds me of the way we phase our strength training programs. you can do a day of low reps a day of high reps, a day of moderate reps in the same week but the reason why we typically have a block of each is because each one of those is a different mental approach like lifting under 5 reps different approach than lifting at 12 reps and if you stay in it for 3 weeks you get good at it you get good at the mental part of what this should feel like so that's why I'm doing it this way it's really just that I know if I just have a week of endurance I can just be focused on it and know next week I'll do the stuff It does it better. And I'm just going to try to enjoy it, I should say. There's another way to frame that or say that, I think, and I think you can identify with this, too, is I also see huge benefits for somebody who admits that they have an addiction to either one of those. That's right. It's because it forces you to break up with that every week. That's what I'm doing. And actually commit to the opposite for at least a little while before you can go back. And so what a great way. And use either side, right? So let's say you're the person who's just like always going to run marathons and you always run. And those exist. There's a lot of those people. Right. There's a lot of those people. And they just struggle with weight training. This idea of like you get a week of that, but then you've got to go over to this side and you've got to let go of that. And so I think for that person and then to what you've been sharing, your journey of like knowing that you have this pull to it, it's like that forces you to break up with that every single week. And so I think there's a lot of value to that for that person. Totally. 100%. I can see that. So what were you doing? So I'm doing something kind of like it's not always, but sometimes in different workouts. I care mostly about the way I look, body fat percentage, more the aesthetic. I've always talked about that. But recently, I'm like, hey, I'm going to be 45 this year. I want to have some endurance and stamina too. And so this has become a priority of me. and so and also for the audience that hasn't been caught up to it's like we've talked about you and I a lot off air speculating on like you know why do I get injured a lot when I get back in the rhythm of things and it's a blessing and a curse right I'm sure this pisses everybody off when I say like how I put 20 pounds on in a month sounds awesome but also ends up leading to a lot of nagging of muscle by the way yeah yeah of issue right And so I'm here again. So what I've been doing is I'm lifting weights to change body composition is my main focus. But if I train, like yesterday I trained legs pretty hard, and I'm definitely a pretty sore day. So now what I'll do is like the next day or two, it'll be cardio. I'll take off weights completely. So you're essentially doing this to slow down the process of building strength and muscles to prevent injury. Yes. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and the way I'm also framing it in my head is like, oh, this is facilitating recovery too, right? Moving, blood flow. The mental part is so big. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? So part of me is just like, so I'm reducing the amount of lifting the weights. I'm trying to increase some of this endurance training where I'm an hour on the elliptical or, you know, incline walking or something like that. But sometimes I do little moderate sprints to elevate the heart rate a little bit so I can push that. But it's still geared around the strength training. But there's no like – it's not like one day on, one day off. It's not like that. It's like I might get two days of lifting in a row, but then all of a sudden I notice that like, oh, I'm a little stiff. I'm a little tight. Okay, now I'm going to do cardio. And then I might do one day. I might get up and be like, well, I'm still kind of feeling a little sore when I work out. I'm going to do another day. And so there's been times where I've done three days in a row of cardio. and then there's been times when I've done two or three days of strength training and I'm just kind of feeling how my body feels and when I feel like I've been pushing the weights and my body's starting to talk to me a little bit, it's like, okay, switch over, I go to the cardio weight. And so it's kind of looked like that. The mental part is so important. Like, I'll just tell you guys just how hard it was for me today. So today's day one of cardio week, right? I'm not supposed to lift weights. Boy, did I. I did okay. I kind of failed. You know what I did? What'd you do? Bro, I had to do a couple sets. No, you didn't. I did. I had to do a couple sets of weight. I literally did three sets. That's it. And then I went and got on the treadmill. And now here's the deal. Here's the other side of the mental part, which, by the way, I did that three sets. I'm like, oh, my God, it's so addictive. It's wonderfully, what's the word? The awareness around it is really painful. It's like, man, is it this bad? But getting on cardio, I don't like, you know, cardio for the sake of the cardio. But I do like the fact that I can get into a zone and listen to a book or think or write. There's a meditative aspect to it. For sure. You can't do that with weights. I've got to focus on lifting. No, because you can kind of zone out and you can really just get into the rhythm. Totally. Totally. Because, again, with weights, I'm under the bar. That's what I like about cardio. That's exactly it. You have to lean into that. Totally. So I put my headphones on. I'm listening to a book. And 10 minutes into it, man, I'm into a book. And I'm writing ideas and thinking. You're like, okay, I could like it for this reason. These are the things that I could like it for. And this whole week, that's what I'm going to do. This whole week, I'm going to go through a book and then look forward to next week when I get to go. Back and lifting. Yeah, go back and lifting. Yeah, I'm so curious to see how this goes. I'm playing with the idea right now, especially considering that we just launched grade eight of this. Like, you know, it would be really cool. And I don't want to mess with what you're doing right now. I think you should absolutely do what you're doing right now. But afterwards, you'd be such a great person to see do grade eight with the cardio. Oh, yeah. So literally you just do one exercise a day, and then the rest is spent on that. You know what my fear is around? This is going to be a great commercial for grade eight. You know what my fear is around grade eight? What? It will get me, and let me explain before everybody goes, oh, shut up. I'll get really strong. Yeah. And I start to get hurt once I go past a certain amount. So that's why I think pairing it with cardio right afterwards will kind of tamper that. Maybe. Because you're right. Because I think if you just ate and did one exercise and got really strong, you would just get really strong. I think you would. People discard the fact that if you just hyper-focus on one thing that moves the needle a lot, like how far you get. Yes. You know, and it's just like, it's such like a foreign concept. Like we need to overwhelm the body with all these things and, you know, get into this crazy like gauntlet workout. I, the reason why I love so much the grade eight is because when I think about what my last, like I don't know how many years now has looked like, it's looked a lot like that. There's a lot of day. I mean, yesterday when I trained legs, you know, quote, unquote, hard, it was squats for five sets. That was the hard part. Then I messed around on the leg extensions, really just to kind of mock all the people that were talking shit. I literally haven't done leg extensions in so long. I'm not even that strong right now, dude. I only squatted 250. I'm doing 250 for reps. And five sets. I worked up to five sets. So you lifted the stack. And then I go over to leg extensions, stack the whole thing for 12 to 15 reps. And even after that, I did sissy squats. And I'm just like, the sissy squats were hard. Oh, of course. You know what I'm saying? And, of course, I posted about it because I know that whole thing. This is the best way to use a leg extension. I love this. This is the best way to use a leg extension. Use it for sissy squats. And all the smart trainers breaking down the biomechanics of the quad. You know, the rectus femoris, the attachment of the blah, blah. Everybody who argued that missed the point. I said, we take two groups. One group for two years is only allowed to do one exercise for their leg development, leg extensions. Then go ahead and pick eight other leg exercises. Hack squats, front squats, Bulgarian split squats, walking lunges, step ups. I mean, the list goes on. The long crunches would destroy it. The list goes on, and those two groups, okay, they can only do those one exercises for four or five sets, whatever. Pick your sets. I don't care. And see who's got better quads in two years. Yeah. Come on. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that. That's the point of it when we were ranking them is thinking of that. Nobody, and then, you know, you just, the real truth is everybody should. I said, of course. I'm doing them. Well, look, because it's easy. Yeah. Stop. I like to sit down. Yeah. I know. You know, the real thing, too, is when it comes to fitness, we've said this before, when you really start to have fun with it and enjoy it, like perfect routines are great. Okay, we write programs. I love creating perfect programs. But if you can enjoy fitness, if you really start to play with it and enjoy it, that's it. You got it forever. You'll love it. If you generally love fitness, and I used to have members like this in my gym. I'm not talking about the bodybuilders or the freaks. I'm talking about people just love fitness. They were always the healthiest. Why? Because they just loved fitness. And they could do all kinds of different things. They would lift weights. They would do this. They would do that. They would do on and off. It's just all. That's it. And then you have this Swiss army knife where you can pull out a tool on the knife for whatever you need. Oh, I need a little more strength. Boom, strength training. I need a little stamina. Boom, mobility. I need a little mobility. I need a little this and a little that. I need something for more recuperative. Now you're using fitness in a way that values you. I always come from a place of like the very minimalist attitude because in our experience uh even at the the most successful we ever were Right So a decade after being coaches and when we probably all consider ourselves finally good coaches right Took a decade or whatever Ten years Yeah and so we finally good coaches Even at peak Coach Adam, you still are only getting 30% to 40% of these people's lifetime success. Which is a high percentage. Yeah. It's like baseball. Yes. You're batting 300. Yeah, you're a Hall of Famer. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? If 70% of your people fail. Yeah, you're doing good. Yeah, you're doing good. And so my thought, when I communicate exercise and fitness, I always go for like, man, if I could just get people to do a couple of these movements. And that is the argument I always have when we get into these debates with other trainers that are 25 years old and done all those certifications and understand anatomy so well and biomechanics. It's just like, yeah, but what you need to understand is that 80 plus percent of the population are going to struggle most of their life being consistent doing anything. And so if I can just get those people to focus on maybe a handful of the best movements and learn to like them, learn to do them, practice them as a skill, figure them out, and then they just approach those, they are going to be pretty strong and fit. But if I argue and debate these things about EMG light up on the leg extension versus this and confuse the fuck out of these people, and the reason why I'm so passionate about it is because I was a young 20-year-old reading all that stuff. And I wasted a lot of time. A lot of clients' time. Yeah, clients and my own time doing this when I would have been way better served getting good at my squats. That's right. Getting good at my deadlifts. Getting good at my bulk. Getting good at these movements that really move the needle. I would have been way better served. Way better. Way better. Speaking of controversial posts, the one where you and I, Adam, were talking about, you asked me. Yes, dude. I lost, by the way. I know. I lost. Okay, so here's what the post was. The post was, Adam asked me if you could change or implement one thing in commercial gyms, what would it be? And I said, a dress code. And the controversy in the comments is silly about this. Look, everybody, I think people need to be reasonable. I've been in gyms since the early 90s, okay, as a kid, all the way growing up. It's gotten crazy, you guys. It's gotten really wild. It's gotten crazy everywhere, first of all. I remember going to the beach. You'd never see thong bikinis. Now you go to the beach. So this is just the trend of how people are. But gyms, this is why I think now is the time. I think there's enough people where if you actually implemented a reasonable gym dress code, not like you've got to wear a burka and sweats, okay? Everybody calm down. But, you know, you're not going to wear, you can't be showing your whole torso or something like that. I think you would get more members. Well, here's enough people that are like, enough moms and dads and regular people who want to get fit who are like, yeah, I'd love to go to a gym where people aren't literally half naked, you know, being distracting or trying to get looked at. And that's the truth, by the way. If you go to the gym half naked, I don't care how it's so comfortable. Shut up. You want people to look at you. That's the truth. And I think a gym dress code would make a difference. Everybody's already experienced this, right? Like, you go, it's PE class. Like, you have to have, like, a specific shirt and shorts. And it's just like it was simple. It was effective. Everybody was in there for a purpose. But, I mean, yeah, I mean, again. It's something silly. Yeah, go ahead. I want to hear your argument. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, obviously I took the other side of this argument. I can argue your side. And let me first argue the way I actually think you believe it. Because, obviously, if you know you well enough, you know that you lean way more towards, I mean, more now conservative. But you were still libertarian about this. So I think you're not saying we need legislation for... No, I don't want a law. Yeah, where it's like... No, no, I don't want laws. Yeah, yeah. This is a private gym. Like a consensus. Everybody agrees. This is a private gym. Even then, I don't think you would want that all gyms have to do this. No, no, no. I think what you would like to see is like a gym step forward and be like, this is going to be how it is. And I don't disagree with that because I think that then the market will dictate who's more right. Because I think there will be... And I think we kind of see this with Planet Fitness is now. Planet Fitness regulates what you can – there are no stringers. Oh, I don't know that. Oh, yeah. Oh, I don't know that. Oh, yeah. And that's their whole pitch is, you know, we're the gym for everybody. Now, I think they took the extreme, and that's an example. They also got rid of exercises. I don't know. I want us to get rid of certain people. So I think they went to an extreme version of that, but that's kind of their philosophy. And I think you could go the other extreme. I think you could be like, hey, we encourage shirtless people, and there'll be a bunch of people that go to that one. And so I really think that's the answer is, you know, allow the gym to do that. And it'll attract the people that like that. It's just interesting to me. Because I don't like the, so I would say Bradley Martin's gym is the other extreme. And I'm not a fan of that. No. Like that's like, it's. Well, the culture is. Even though I'm pro, wear whatever you want to wear. I'm also like the dudes taking their shirts off and all the cameras, everyone video themselves and influencers like. I really do. I really do think if a commercial gym today had a reasonable dress code, I think they would do better. I think there's a lot of people that are turned away from gyms. I don't know. Because they feel uncomfortable. Moms and dads. The comments of moms were like, yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. And dudes were like, yeah. And then people, of course, are hammering the guy. If you can't control yourself, stop. You could argue that you're right. based off of the growth of Planet Fitness. I mean, they're one of the fastest growing chains right now, and they're designed to make people feel comfortable, right? If you're really overweight and you don't want to see a girl in a tube top and booty shorts and you don't want to see a guy in a stringer and stuff like that, so you could argue that... But it also, look, there's also the purist in me where I really love good, pure fitness culture. And good fitness gym culture is about fitness. It's about camaraderie. It's about support. And, yeah, you can have that with the half-naked bodies also. But I think that gym culture, when you look at the toxic side, I hate using that word because that's such a misused term. But the toxic side of fitness culture is this, like, look at me. It's all about how I look. It's all about looking at each other. It's about checking each other out. It's heavy on the vanity. People will talk about gyms as a meat market. This is where that comes from. Now, how do you make peace or reconcile that feeling that you have when you also simultaneously pumping iron is one of your favorite movies? And that gym is the guys are taking their shirts off. They're in booty shorts. Well, that was a different time. And let's be honest. Those gyms were small, and it was pros. And so the culture is the culture. I'm talking about the typical gym today, commercial gym. It's a commercial gym. So if I owned a commercial gym today. I mean, that gym, if it could have been a commercial gym, then it would have been. It just couldn't be. It was all different back then. It was such an outside of the mainstream. I know. But maybe that's what it is. That's why I'm trying to get, like, how do you reconcile that? Because you've never spoke out of anything about that with that gym. And that gym was okay. And they took their shirt. They were barefoot, took shirts off, booty shorts. you know slapping each other in the ass in the back they were doing all that dog they did posing in the mirror and you know i'm saying and so there's all that but it's now obviously it's grown to mainstream these are commercial gyms and now it attracts a lot more people and so is it maybe more because you see a lot more of it and it's yeah i mean what because i think it's the same it's kind of the same thing i think so i don't like again i don't think there should be a law, but I think a gym today that was really fitness forward, that was clean, great equipment, great trainers. The trainers make the culture, by the way. What I'm saying doesn't make the culture, okay? It's the trainers and the staff that make the culture, but that had a reasonable dress code, I think would really serve the people that need this the most, which is the everyday average person that needs, you know, the 27-year-old fitness fanatic, they'll go work out. They'll go work out somewhere. But, you know, the mom that has two kids, the dad that's working, the person who's overweight, like, again, reasonable. You don't need to go wear a uniform. I don't think you should show up at a gym and be required to wear, like, some crazy uniform. But I do think some reasonable – look, I have a 16-year-old daughter. Like, you walk her – would I want to walk in my 16-year-old daughter into some of these gyms? By the way, it's not half-naked dudes. I don't want her around the way some of these people are presenting themselves. and she's 16 years old. I don't know if I like this culture. It's funny that you and I find ourselves in this argument and disagreement here because you and I also disagree on the spanking thing, yet I don't spank and I also, my wife and I, train in hoodies. We are in burkas. We're fully burka'd out with Dre because that's my vibe, is to be hooded out, covered, can't tell who I am type of deal and I'm hiding this thing underneath. You know what I'm saying? But I also am like... I mean, what is, like, the thought process, too, of, like, some people that go in there. It's a signaling of, like, you know, it's a single energy. And it's a dating thing. And it's, like, look at me, like, trying to attract, like, a potential person. And so it's, like, yeah, that's an interesting thought is, like, well, where does that person now, you know, go trying to signal that? Well, so I like this as a pro argument to it because here's the thing. It's like – and I didn't find this out until way later in my dating – is one of the things I love about Katrina is that she cares about health and fitness like I do. She's not obsessed with it, but she cares enough about it that there is this accountability piece that comes from my wife. Well, where's a better place than to find a woman like that than inside the gym? Right. And so I could understand this natural inclination to want to signal and present and be that. And that's the best place to find each other attractive and stuff like that. And to be honest, luckily I met – so funny. Katrina talks about how many times we'd seen each other in the gym. I never noticed her. Why? Because she's hooded up. That's right. Now, I met her outside of that and then realized that she was like that. And I respect – I love that she does that. It's great. But I wouldn't have picked her out inside the gym had we not met in business. It's also like, okay, how would you communicate this to your daughter? And I'm speaking both to men and women. If my daughter wanted to go to the gym, wear a strapless tube top with tiny little shorts, I'm going to sit down with her and be like, honey, why are you dressing this way? You know you want people to look at you. You want that attention. Let's talk about that for a second. Okay, and that's actually – It's not about it's too hot in the gym and I need to be comfortable. But here's the thing, though, too. And I would rather that. I don't have a daughter, so I can't speak from that conversation. But if I did, I would rather me have the conversation with my daughter and she chooses. Of course. But she has that option if she wanted to. And I like that. I like that because she's going to go to school and they're going to offer her drugs and sex and all these other things. And I hope that as a father, I teach her. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that Jim raises my daughter. My point with what I'm saying is the conversation I would have with her is also an honest conversation you have with yourself. When you go to the gym and you are almost naked working out, it's not because it makes you comfortable. It's not all the lies. Shut up. See, that's the dad in you. You want people to look at you. The dad in you wants to come out and you want to bother all these girls. Listen, I don't want to bother anybody. It's just an honest conversation because there were people commenting. Listen, there were people commenting underneath, well, if you can't control yourself, it has nothing to do with me. I don't care. Yeah, yeah. But I'm talking about the question was for commercial. If I owned a commercial gym today, I think this is one of the things I would implement, and I think it would be good for business. I think it would be good for the culture. I'm not going to force you. Dress however you want. You walk into my private room. You walk into my house that way, I'm going to kick you out. So I'll do the same thing in my gym. And so, again, it's just an honest conversation. It's an interesting experiment. I think that it would do well, and then the other ones would do well for, like, the more dating kind of environment. I think that, you know, there's room for that. I mean, it's a big industry. Like, there's plenty of options. Like, I don't think that there should be, like, I think it would be fine to just define it. Here's what our, you know, code of ethics are, and this is what our gym culture is about. And so sign up for it or not. Also, from a business perspective, you'll love this, Adam. Yeah. You want to make a gym that actually is profitable, does well, has a big impact. Who are you going to cater to? The young kids who are coming in and trying to hit on each other half naked? Sure. Or the middle-aged people who are like, no, I'm here with a sliver. Who's got more money to spend? I feel like that's – so, I mean, to me, that's when I think of what you're describing. And I don't go enough big commercial gyms lately to even have much of a dog in this fight because I haven't experienced what you're saying. Like, I think that when I go to, like, say, a Club One or Club Sport, like, it ain't like that at all. No, no, that's too expensive. Yeah, yeah. And when I go to, like, I don't know, I'd say when I go to, like, American Barbell or Golds, I think there's a healthy balance of it. I don't think it's extreme or crazy. I have seen extreme, though. I've been to, like, those ones in LA or Vegas. Yeah, I've been to Las Vegas, and I've seen Bradley Martin's gym. Probably Miami, too. I went there once with my wife because her family's in Vegas, and we went there to work out with her brother and her sister-in-law. Yeah. And I think it's just Vegas culture, too. Well, I mean, that's where all the strippers work out. Yeah. And they are advertising. Yeah. I mean, it is business for them. That's true. So I can't hate on that. That's what they do for a living, and it's like, best way to get customers to come pay me at my job is to see my body when I work out. And so I understand. But I'm not the biggest fan. And I wouldn't, again, want my daughter growing up in that and stuff like that. But I also would teach her that. And I feel like the thing that I don't like, I think, where I agree with you or probably what we have in common is that that same guy or girl who dresses like that and gets attention that maybe they don't is like inappropriate or they don't like too much. It's like, well, you're bringing that on by doing that. Yeah. You play a role, too. It doesn't excuse the dirtbag. No, that's not what I'm saying by that. But if you put yourself out there, that's the whole uniform. This is a conversation I have with my daughter. If I had a daughter, that's what you're saying. Hey, if you do this, know that there's dirtbag guys out there. And what they're seeing is they're going to be gawking at you. They might be taking videos of you. They're probably going to approach you when you're trying to work out. So understand that. They're just looking for an opportunity. That's right. And so That's just reality And that's So it's like If you're going to do that To complain About that Is another thing It's just like There's a real easy Solve to this And it's not like Somebody commented Something hilarious Underneath Because somebody wrote Well you're just Talking about the women And then this guy's like You know what If I went to the gym What you guys were wearing You guys would kick me out Hella fast Like it's true The dude walked in there With tiny ass little shorts With his junk hanging out He made my wife beater Yes I said What about nipple type Wife beater I said I'm asking for a friend. You don't have no moose knuckles. You don't have it worked out in that in a while? Really? No. Good for you. No. And it's because my... Well, it promotes that. No, my security is a little bit better. It's an insecurity thing, right? All of it is. It's like you want to show your muscles. I know that so well because that was me, dog. I did that for years. For years, I wore three T-shirts. Wife beater, regular T-shirt, another T-shirt. Makes you bigger. Yes. And then I get Aaron up in the gym. Layer after layer comes up. Pump cover. Yeah, yeah. I know, dude. You're looking for it. That's a thing now. I know. That pump cover is a thing. That's what they call it. Yeah, there's a term for it. It's the top shirt. Yeah. Top shirt. There's a term for something we've been doing for 25 years when we work out, and they call it a pump cover and stuff like that. Totally. Totally. Anyway, I was going to ask you, Adam, you've been having the Huel meal replacement. A lot. Like crazy. Almost daily. Yeah, so I mean, I'm... This is the first time I've seen you consume anything that's a meal replacement that's entirely, like there's no, it's all plant-based. Yeah. And you're like a, you know, I hate to say you have like a palate of a child. It doesn't taste super good. You won't have it. Yeah, yeah. Well, dude, they have, I mean, the strawberry banana flavor is bomb. They have a chocolate peanut butter flavor that's bomb. That's the one I like. They've got a coffee one. Have you had the coffee one yet? No. Yeah, have you had the coffee one yet? We only had a couple in there, and I had them, and I'm like, man, where are they all at? Because I haven't seen more of it. We have more of the other ones. And that's my favorite one that I've had. I haven't seen it come back in our refrigerator in a while. So what I like is this, and we've talked about this before. If I do a certain amount of whey or dairy in my diet, I'm fine. But when I'm really trying to push and hit my protein intake, it's almost always in the diet in order to kind of get there. And I just digest that way better. And so if I just break it up, and so I make sure that one of my sources is coming from that instead of like two sources of whey or dairy. It's really easy to digest. Very. Yeah, really easy. Very. And so I like it post-workout. Post-workout. Oh, because it's got carbs, too. And it's already loaded. It's good. Yeah, it's a meal replacement. I can get it right afterwards. And so, yeah, I kind of enjoyed it, dude. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I did not see that. I've never seen you consume that consistent of shakes ever. I also am such a ready-to-drink. Even in my... You don't like adding powder to water? I know. The shaker cup thing is just that. I mean, I did it. I did it for a very long time, so I absolutely was the shaker cup guy. I'm the one that came up and showed you guys a tip on that. Oh, yeah. Tell everybody, guys. Dude, that is it. If you are a shaker cup person, the worst part about shaker cups is the nasty protein smell. Oh, God. Oh, you have to throw away the... Yeah, it's disgusting. You can't scrub it. In your car in the sun? You can't throw it. Throw it in the garbage. There's a massive hack for that. You'll never get it out. The minute that you finish that, you literally, and you don't have to do a good job of rinsing. You literally pour it out, rinse it, throw it, and you throw a paper towel inside it and close it. That's it. Throw it in your gym bag. It absorbs everything. It absorbs everything. And it'll keep it from ever getting stinky. That was, I forgot who taught. I wish I could give the credit to who it was. But it was in my bodybuilding days. It works. It's magical. It works great. If you leave your shaker cup from the morning until evening, sometimes it ruins it. Yes. especially if it was sealed and it wasn't rinsed. I've thrown multiples out. Yes, and so all you do is you've got to just throw a paper towel in there, and then it'll absorb it all in there, and it will not stink. It's a huge hack. Speaking of calories and stuff, okay, so we all have foods that we just, like we want to overeat, right? And for me, I've talked about French fries before. Dude, it's the ones from In-N-Out. I can't stop. No, no, no, listen, listen. Those are delicious. Listen to me. Listen, we went to In-N-Out now a few times with my family, and I'll order two fries. I always get two fries. And my kids never finish theirs. My niece doesn't finish hers. Bro, listen. I eat five fries. Five. Oh, my God. In a row. Bro. In a row. And I was like thinking to myself. I'm like, oh, I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop. And I couldn't stop. It was too powerful. You're still in that place right now that I remember. That's right. One, you've healed your gut. I think they put a lot of drugs in it. You've healed your gut, so you feel a lot better. So you don't have that natural regular you should have. Yeah, yeah. And you've built so much muscle that you could power through stuff like that and not get too fat. If you were getting fat, like, you would actually slow down. I don't know. I know you. If you were getting fat from it, you would slow down. You call me fat every day. Hey, this reminds me of my daily gelato kick that I was on peak bodybuilding. You know what I'm saying? When I was 240 and, like, 7% body fat, I was eating gelato every day. But you're like this with ice cream, right? If it's in front, you'll just eat it. Oh, yeah. Until it's gone. Gone. Yeah, see? Gone, yeah. Like, you won't stop because it hurts. No, no, no. You'll just keep going. No. I mean, until it actually hurts. Have you ever tested it? I will pass. Yeah, I'll pass full until it's a box. Like how much will it go to? An ounce, like a gallon? Oh, no. I could put a whole, the whole carton thing. Wow. Is that a gallon? No, it's not a gallon. No. A gallon is a big one. A quart. A quart? No, it's more than a quart. What's a thrifties ice cream thing like that? Yeah, I could put a whole, which is like, I think, 3,000 calories worth of ice cream. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. No, I could do that. That's a lot. Right now, I couldn't do that. But I had peak metabolism when I was like where you're at right now, where you're saying you could eat pie fried. I could eat a whole time last year. Bro, I couldn't believe it, though. I just kept eating it. My kids are like, I don't want to. Roll switch, dude, because I can't eat anything with a different stripe. Why? I'm feeling the pain of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just I can't, dude. I can't eat all the fun, crazy stuff. I'll eat a little bit. Did you do the parasite cleanse? Die later, dude. You might have worms. Did you get the parasite cleanse yet? I got worms. You got to do it, dude. Adam did it. I did it. I did it. You got to do it, dude. You might have that. He's got to stop cheese, dog. He's got to stop cheese. That's all he's got to do. How hurt are you, guys? I'm just going to blame it on the one condition that's proven. What is it for you, Justin, where you fit some friends? Cheese. Is it cheese for real? Well, I always eat cheese. How much is that, Doug? A quart and a half. A quart and a half. Wow. So, yeah, I can put a quart and a half. That's 3,000 calories? Yeah. Good God, bro. Yeah, you know, we always talk about stuff that stems from childhood shit, right? Yeah. And we didn't have it. I remember, like, I have a lot of blurry memories. One of, like, my biggest memories is I moved out when I was 17, got my own apartment. And I remember the first time I went grocery shopping. I'm getting ice cream. My freezer was literally nothing but frozen burritos and frigging ice cream, dude. All that was in there. And I remember, because I couldn't do it, my parents wouldn't let me do it as a kid. I would open up the container and sit in front of the TV, and I'd just sit there and eat the whole thing, dude. Eat the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. I can't. And the worst part was I played basketball. I did all these active things so I could get away with it. It's like it was the worst thing that could happen to me. Like, I know that if it put a ton of weight on me, it would have, it would have, I would have, it would have. I feel like there was like two or three years where it was just Costco. Like, I only ate Costco, like, bagel dogs, ordered those, like, bagel bites. Yes. Like, otter pops and, like, yeah, ice cream. That was it. Yeah. Wow. And it was like, yeah. There was like a frozen burritos The bagel bites And Hot Pockets I lived off of for years dude Terrible It was terrible You know why? Because they sell you on how healthy How many grams of protein are in there That's it Look at how many grams of protein are in there I remember when I realized If you ate a pound of pasta It was like 40 grams of protein Raviolis You can't have raviolis Dude I remember that Get it all in I'll eat a pound of pasta It's all cheap Let's go Hey what did you guys What did everybody do for Valentine's Day? Oh good So Jessica made it this fun holiday for the kids So they all came downstairs. They had a little Valentine's Day gift. She set up the table with, like, hearts, and I got chocolate covered. It was really nice. So she's like, she wants to start this tradition. And then I got her a gift. I was going to get her something else. I won't say it on air because I'm going to hold that for another time. But one thing I love, so my wife's into working out, and so what's cool about that is I can get her fitness gifts without it being, like, offensive. Like, typically you buy your wife, like, a workout, like something for exercise. You always, like, run the risk of, like, okay, are you saying I'm fat? Like, what's the deal? You know what I mean? Hey, honey, I got you this new machine. You know? I got you this new extra dumbbells. But she loves it. And we have our big garage. And so I got a... You guys know that row machine I got recently? Yeah. So love it. That same company... I'm not going to mention them because they don't sponsor us. But they got some new stuff. I got a standing abductor machine. Have you ever seen standing abductor machines? No. So you know abductor machines. Waste of time, right? Yep, yep. There's ones where you stand and you squat down and press your legs out. And it really hits and isolates the glutes as a way to emphasize connection. Interesting. Can you load yourself while you do it? You can load the – Yeah, there's weight on it. You can load. Yeah, but that's only on the abduction or adduction. It doesn't matter. You have to push down and out as you come out. Interesting. And Brett Contreras, he constantly posts about these standing hip abducting machines. I've never used them before. But I know enough about exercise and the body to know what something will feel like. And I saw one for the house, for like your home gym. So that's what I got. Oh, did you try it? No, I just ordered it. Oh, okay. So I haven't used it. So that's what I got it for. What did you do? Okay. Yeah, we went up to Half Moon Bay. Oh, I love that. It kind of doubled up. Well, it definitely doubled up. It was like my birthday present that was like, you know, delayed. It's like Valentine's Day birthday present. I really was like, we're smashing both these together. at this point you waited too long so you know we're just going to make it a start. So I get credit for Valentine's Day exactly I get credit for this so yeah we enjoyed that but it was I mean brought our own we like to do it so it's like we have our own kind of set up so we don't really have to leave and I had a couple bottles of Rambi and it was made sure this time to bring some Zbiotics and all that we were like set dude so I didn't have any of the ramification of that next day. So we had a great time. When it's just you and your wife, how much, because obviously when you're in your 20s, you just go hard with drinking too far or whatever. What is that average out to? If you guys are hanging out, just the two of you, and you're drinking, is it like four glasses? I mean, it's probably like a bottle and a half. Total. Oh, that's not too bad. Over the course of a whole month. A bottle's only four glasses. We're not like crazy, like you said, We're not like raging teenagers anymore. You're not Katrina. Enjoy the scenery. Wait till you get to ask me. But the Z-Botics makes a difference. Because I'm not, like with wine, I enjoy the flavor. I enjoy the taste. But it usually gives me, like, I definitely feel like headaches. Especially in Red Bull. Yeah, dude. It doesn't sit well with me, usually. Does Courtney like the Z-Biox also? Does she use it, too? She does, too, yeah. Because, yeah, and the thing is, like, we like to be out and about and, like, go places. We don't want to be, like, oh, just, like, stay in bed all the next day, you know. So we want to get up and go, and we're out, like, downtown and doing a bunch of stuff. And we went to some place where it's, like, I had to endure. So there's these, like, natural, like, plants, gardening places and stuff. And so I'm, like, you know, the husband that's, like, you know, ooh, what is this? And, like, I'm trying to pronounce, like, all these Latin names and stuff. Like, what kind of hocus-pocus wizardry is this that we're buying? You know, it's like, anyway. That's where you act interested? Yeah, act interested. Like, I'm like, yeah, this, wow, this is only, you know, grows in this kind of native climate. Cool. You know? So, but it, yeah, we had a good time. You saw your bagpipes too, yeah? Yeah. I love that place for that It just it brings those vibes of like when we were in Scotland it definitely brings that here That a cool feature Have you done that yet Have you done one of those Both Half Moon Bay and Spanish Bay both do that. No, and I've never done that. So cool. Yeah, it's cool. You get a room right there. And they play that out there? At the sunset. So you're watching the sunset come down the ocean, and the bagpipes goes the whole coastline. So for like an hour, he's playing. When I hear bagpipes, I can't help but think of Braveheart, the movie. Yeah, I think it feels like war. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like a sentiment. I think, you know, it's a weird thing. I thought about this because each culture kind of has like a distinctive instrument and like kind of like music. So bagpipes, for me, it hits. Like, you know, it's like almost like a tearing effect. I swear to God. Yeah. It doesn't happen with me. I think of Adam and I'm like, you know, polka? No, mariachi. Yeah, we get both. You get like the German and the... Mexicans use... Dude, it's polka. I don't get tearful when I hear an accordion. You know what I mean? I hear an accordion. Yes, you do. No, I do. Yes, you do. Hey, bro, what's that song I told you I listen to? I drive. That's famous. Oh. Who's that artist? Oh, oh. Super Mario. Oh, let me eat. Tell me. I know you feel that. Come on, dude. Even I feel that. I'm not Italian. That's the equivalent. I turn it all the way up, driving my windows down. Yeah, of course you are, bro. You're driving your Italian car. I feel it, though. It just feels right. It feels right. What did you do? What did you guys do? We had Jason and Danielle over, and I cooked. I cooked for everybody. Katrina wanted my baby back ribs, and so I did baby back ribs, made a baked bean homemade thing that I did, and then they brought some stuff. and then we Z-biotic'd it up and then drank, but ours looked a little bit different than a bottle and a half. Katrina alone put three bottles of champagne down. Yes, bro. She has extra livers, doesn't she? How does she okay everything? She occasionally does Z-biotic. She didn't do Z-biotic, dog. Some people could just process. It's in genes, dude. I cannot have it. Oh, God, I would die. She had three bottles of champagne and then her and Danielle cracked another bottle of white wine. That's how we finished the night. Oh, my God. Insane, dude. Absolutely insane. And you wouldn't know, like, because she keeps herself pretty composed. I mean, until she came down in the Britney Spears outfit. And then I realized, like, your mom's in the house, and you just came down. Yeah, I was like, dude, you guys have to leave. Then I realized. Everybody out. Then I realized how tipsy she was. I was just like, you know, your mom is upstairs in the room, and you just walk downstairs. I feel like, go upstairs, hold on, I'll be there in a minute. So I'm like, okay, this is what three bottles looks like. What do you say to get everybody out? Or are you just like, hey, guys, do whatever you want. Well, Jason and Danielle had just left, and I was downstairs doing dishes and stuff like that. So my mother-in-law stayed the night, and her and Max, they went up to bed, watched movies in the spare room or whatever like that. So they had been in bed for a few hours. We stayed up drinking by the fire, watching Nate Bargazi, laughing, having a good time, so that. And the kitchen was a disaster. I can't go to sleep. I cannot have a good night with a dirty dish. Blooming. Yeah, and so I'm like, just let me straighten up a little bit and stuff like that. And so I'm downstairs, and here she comes down. Britney Spears out, bro. And I'm like, yes, dude. She's like, come to bed. And I'm like, you know your mom is like literally. Now do you leave the dishes or do you just wash faster? I've washed faster. Because I can't. I still can't. Yeah, dude, yeah. It's like, I'm getting up. Don't worry. She's like, hurry, because I'm going to fall asleep. I'm like, no, you won't. I'll be up there in just a minute. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, if you're over the dishwasher, there's, like, food clumped all over the food. You know what I'm saying? I didn't do a good job of spraying everything down. Is there an outfit, like, my wife, if she wears... I've never seen that one. That was a new one. Obviously, yeah. That was a new one. My wife, if she wears, like, a long, like, flowy dress, if she has an apron on barefoot, and she's doing anything in the kitchen, I don't understand what happens to me. That sounds biblical, bro. Bro. I just don't. I'm just like, I lose my mind, bro. And if she has no makeup on on top of it, she thinks I'm lying. She's like, no, you don't really. Listen, you try that. That's the hippy-dippy in you for sure. That's hilarious. Something, dude. She's in the kitchen making food. I'm like, oh, God. I'm like tall socks and short shorts. Okay, well, that's, I mean. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, mine's pretty good. Any skirt, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A tennis skirt is like. There's nothing that I can put on, though, that'll do that. You know what I mean? No, there's nothing. Yeah, they don't. Whatever, bro. We do a shirtless and a tool belt for you. Well, that's true. That is like a home run. Yeah, but you can't just walk out. You have to actually do something. Yeah, you've got to actually fix things. Have you pretended yet? Have you just walked out with a tool belt and just carried a two-by-four? No, but, you know, I saw a hack. It was funny. I saw this guy. It was a bad hack who actually, he ended up going in and, like, loosening bolts and things ahead of time. And then, like, would turn the water off and was just like, oh, the toilet's not working. Like, oh, man. I got this. Go get the tool belt. He goes and grabs it. Yeah, I'm going to need some beverages. His little daughter's coming in, giving him drinks and stuff. He's like, oh, thank you, honey. This is so hard. He's going to hack the system. Yeah. Gets all the praise. Hey, I found a new show. And for some reason, I thought I had lit the preview, and I didn't think it was going to be that good. Katrina and I both from different friends had the recommendations, and we're like, you know, maybe we'll turn it on and we'll watch it. Really good. It's on Apple TV. Shrinking. With Harrison Ford and the guy from Yes Man. I forget his name. He does more comedic movies. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm talking about? I know what you're talking about. I can't think of his name. He's a smaller guy. Yeah. I love you, man. Yeah, yeah, I love you, man. That's what it is. Not Yes Man. I love you, man. Yeah, yeah. That guy, I forget his name, and Harrison Ford. and it's a very well-written comedy short really good it's on season three i think season three right now and uh we and the only reason we turned it on was because we literally had like three different people tell us like have you guys not seen it we're like oh we saw it on apple we didn't we didn't watch it or they're like oh my god it's so good yeah and so uh funny because we went to go watch it and it was it's ranked number one right now on apple and uh watched it and it's really good. It's really good. That new Game of Thrones show. Jason Segel, that's his name. I refuse to watch anything until I see if they're not on the Epstein list. I don't know, man. You're not going to be watching much. Exactly. You get Mr. Rogers and he's gone. Everybody? Reruns of Mr. Rogers even more now. That's the type of person that should be taught in history class. His story, it's been a long time since watching something got me emotional. His documentary was so good. As a kid, I watched it, but I didn't know his full story. Which, by the way, I've got to say this. Justin, you brought this up. Is it true that the Epstein emails show that Michael Jackson was innocent? Bro, I've been going to hell. It was actually taking kids and bringing them to Neverland Ranch to prevent them from getting sent? I've heard this. I don't know if that's proven. There's a lot of conjecture around it. Because, too, I was actually talking to one of my friends about it, too, and his uncle actually was one of the arresting sheriffs in Santa Barbara who went there. And so one thing he said was, like, the doors, like, you could lock them. You couldn't get out from the inside. You couldn't open them from the inside. Oh, that's weird. It's, like, weird, right? Oh, that's weird. So then he was kind of like, you know, I don't know. Because I want to believe that because I'm a huge Michael Jackson fan. And then I saw a lot of these theories kind of opening up about that. But who knows, dude? I've watched all kinds of stuff on that. I went down that rabbit hole, too. I heard the phone call for the night he was killed or died. And he's literally. Oh, with his doctor? Yeah. He's literally talking. No, it's not his doctor. He's talking to somebody else. And he's saying that they want to kill me. he's like basically it's the night before you know that he was in the middle of suing Sony and so he was in the middle of suing Sony Macaulay Culkin and the other kid who spent the most time with him said that they defended him that court case you know he won that case so all the stuff that was against him that they made a documentary about him that he won that case it came out after he died too And these were all kids, they dismissed their testimonies. And then all of a sudden now this documentary comes out and they put their false accusations in the documentary. So it's like, to me, yeah, it's all suspect. Interesting. Really crazy, right? Look, everybody, the science on red light therapy is profound. There are studies that go back decades that show that red light therapy boosts function in all the cells that are exposed to it. What does that mean? You put it on your scalp, you grow more hair. You put it on your skin, your skin gets healthier. You put it on a muscle, it recovers faster. Put it on an injury, inflammation goes down. You can even raise testosterone with red light therapy. Here's the problem. Most of the wavelengths that are offered by the red light therapy you find all over the Internet, it's not the ones they use in studies. It's actually crap. You're wasting your time. But there is one company that uses the same wavelengths that you see in studies. It's Juve. Juve is red light therapy that works like the ones you find in the studies. And if you go through our link, you'll get yourself a big discount. Go to Juve.com forward slash Mind Pump. That's J-O-O-V-V.com forward slash Mind Pump. The code Mind Pump will get you $50 off. Back to the show. Our first caller is Jasmine from Colorado. I've been lifting for about over a decade. I've been training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for 14 years. I've been climbing for four years since I moved to Colorado. and this past month or so since giving birth to my baby boy has been probably the hardest adjustment as an active person who's been consistent for so many years. Even in pregnancy I managed to maintain like three times a week of adjusted lifting regimen. I also managed to kickbox all the way through the week I gave birth but since then I've only been walking and doing occupational therapy and as you probably can imagine I'm pretty eager to get back into the swing of things. And at this moment, as I'm trying to think about like how what my life looks like and how my activity looks now post baby, I kind of have plans to do MAPS 15 in my home gym, especially after hearing feedback from you guys to other parents on the podcast. But what I've noticed is that programs and advice specifically to recovery postpartum and actually during pregnancy are pretty dated and often lacking especially as an active person even though I'm waiting for clearance from my doctor to be able to work out again I'm pretty much a poster child for overdoing it on things and I it's funny that you just had that podcast we talked about getting back in shape after having a baby but I would love to get your feedback on like what this actually looks like specifically you know how do I how do I treat lifting differently than jiu-jitsu and climbing and what does it really look like right because i i like is it starting from completely zero with body weight exercises is it a little bit away i'd love to hear like what you guys think jasmine um thank you for this question so much and you is this your first child yes okay thank you for calling in because you're right uh the information that's out there for moms is dated and it's based off of, first of all, it sucks anyway, across the board. But it's also based off of inactive, you know, regular people, I guess. People who aren't working out all the time or staying fit. Nonetheless, number one, I want to encourage you. You're doing a really good job. And the reason why I want to tell you that is because what you went through, and I would love for you to expand on this just for other moms listening, is probably the most radical body change. I'm not in control. What's going on? Things are changing, like experience you've probably ever had through your fitness career. Am I putting it accurately? Yeah, 100%. Okay. The hardest thing about all of this for someone like you who's been working out and fit and active is it's so hard. being someone who for a long time, you've kind of got your hands around your body and fitness. Like you've done it for so long. You're like, I know how to get fit. I know when something hurts. I know what to do with my diet. Like this is great. But you've been given a radically different hormone profile, body and different perspective. Even your thought process is different. You're probably even finding yourself thinking and reacting in ways that are different, especially postpartum, which is a very difficult thing to process because you've got to kind of let go. Yeah. You're like, I don't know what's going on anymore, which is a really scary thing to do. So here's what you'll hear from people in social media. They'll say things like, oh, once you're released, once your doctor says you can get back and exercise, and by six months you'll be back in shape. A year later at the longest, you're going to be great. It'll be like whatever. You might even have someone posting and saying that this is me and I'm great and I'm fit and all that stuff. Lies. It's all lies. It's all lies. It's going to take you to feel like your old self the way you did before you got pregnant. It's going to take about two years. Now, that doesn't mean in that two-year process you're not going to see fitness improvements and changes and strength and all that stuff. But don't expect to feel the way you did before for at least two years. Also, yes, you got to treat this like you're starting over completely because this is a completely different body than you're used to. Hormones are different. Your priorities are different. Even the way you process sound and sleep is different. You hear your baby crying. It does something to you that you've never experienced before. In the middle of the night, you probably wake up. at the slightest movement of the baby, whereas before you might have been able to sleep all night. You might have intrusive thoughts. What if I drop the baby? What if this happens? This is all part of what happens to you as a mom to make you a better mom, okay? So you've got to start completely over with everything. The program that we have, and I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but I'm going to encourage you right now. Because of your fitness background, it's going to be way easier for you than it is for most people. The challenge is going to be you submitting to the whole process. That's going to be the challenge. The whole challenge is can I just give in to the whole thing. The best program we have postpartum by far, hands down, is MapStarter. It's better than MapStarter? I actually have MapStarter. Good. I didn't run it, but I bought it for my dad, but I actually have it. You're going to start MapStarter, and you're going to be like, this sucks. This is way too easy. I can do this on my feet. Strength stability, yeah. You just got to get into it. Yeah, this is easy. Like, what am I doing? man, like I'm way stronger than this or whatever, you trust, totally trust the process because you have to relearn muscle recruitment patterns. Your hormones aren't going to be back to what they were before for a little while anyway. Lots of things stretched and moved. Your pelvic floor muscles have been changed for the time being. Your core stability has changed for the time being. Posterior change has changed for the time being. So Map Starter is going to be the program that you start with. and you're probably going to run that once or probably twice and then move to something like MAPS 15. Okay. Now let me tell you some encouraging and positive stuff, and this was stuff that I remember having to communicate to Katrina because she came into pregnancy in some of the best shape of her life. Diet was dialed. She felt the best. She was lean, strong, all the things, felt great. And I started her on Starter, and I remember her within a couple weeks like, all right, I'm ready. Give me anabolic or give me the next program. And I'm like, are you not seeing progress in results every week? And she's like, well, yeah, I am. And I'm like, exactly. The goal is to do as little as possible to elicit the most change. You're seeing change. So the cool part about somebody like you or her is even going through a program that in your head you go, this is so less of what I would. Yeah, this is so much easier or basic compared to what I could do or normally would do. You think that it's not enough to give you results. But you'll see results. You'll get stronger. Stability will come together. Like you'll see progress on a program that is so less than what you're probably used to doing. And I remind her, I'm like, let's reap the benefits from this. The fact that you can do a program so elementary to you and see results is such a good thing. Let's keep going down this process. Don't worry, we'll get there. So that's the positive thing is because you've got such a great background doing a program that in your head, psychologically, you'll be like, this is not enough. But if you ask yourself, am I getting stronger every week? Like, is my stability coming back together? You'll be able to tell yourself you are. And so ride that train. Ride that train and enjoy that process, and you will. You'll get stronger. You'll get better. And someone like you will rebound quicker than the average. Now, Jasmine, you've got to also reframe how you view progress or what you consider to be progress. So sometimes progress, because I know what it's like to have kids. Now, I'm not a mom, but I'm married to one. And so sometimes progress is I have more energy than I probably would. I actually feel better than I probably would. I'm less anxious than I probably would be. So it's a little bit of new territory. Your old perception of progress might not be one that you're going to use now. So it might just be, okay, I'm actually better than I probably would be. Even though I'm struggling, would I be struggling more if I wasn't doing this right? Now, if you do this wrong and you push yourself a little too hard or you do the wrong movements, aches, pains, injury, fatigue, and feeling fried or burnt out are what are going to happen to you. So I remember even my wife, I mean, she, you know, she was consistent with her exercise, real strong beforehand, the whole deal. And she'd be like, man, I just, I didn't even think I went hard and my back is hurting. Like, what's going on? I'm like, honey, your muscle recruitment pattern, we've got to wait. And so she couldn't even push certain exercises for like a year and a half because each time she'd do it, she'd kind of hurt and couldn't figure it out. But then afterwards it was like not a big deal. So just stick with starter. Stick with starter. Go on walks with the baby. Watch jujitsu videos. That will help keep the techniques fresh in your mind. if you do jujitsu uh you know a year later you're just gonna flow you know what that means because you do jujitsu you're just gonna kind of go through the techniques and movements and flow don't go too hard and just and you're gonna listen in a couple years you're gonna be like wow i'm i'm ready to roll unless you have another baby in between which will take a little longer yeah that's the jujitsu is the one that i'm actually the most nervous about um like i have some some lingering injuries pre-pregnancy that I like did PT for and I can still feel them especially now like in my hips like with having a baby and stuff I feel like they're still there yeah so it's good to know that I need the muscle recruitment stuff definitely makes sense but jujitsu is definitely the one that I have the most questions about because um it's easy for me to lift and even to kickbox on a bag like I can control things but when I'm training with people like I can't really control their behaviors and how intense they go. And I'm not exactly expecting to get back into competition shape in a year, but I would be curious to see. So you're saying a year before I really get back into jiu-jitsu the way I used to be? Yeah. If you start to feel good, then you're just going to go roll at a very low intensity and flow, which you know what that feels like. You're just practicing technique, not tons of resistance. You get them into a position. You let them escape, you move into a new position, just to keep the techniques fresh in your mind. But no hard, nothing hard, no hard grab. The risk of injury is high. The areas that are most susceptible to injury postpartum are hips, back, and the pelvic floor. And pelvic floor injuries can feel like low back injuries. Okay. Or hip or sciatica type stuff. It's because they're all connected with that. That makes sense. Thank you. You got it. And you have starter. I do. Yes. Yep. Good. Good. Eat to nourish yourself. That might be the other question. High protein is really good. Don't go on a cut. Don't try to go on a cut. Are you nursing? You're breastfeeding? I'm transitioning from breastfeeding right now. Okay. So, yeah. So that will give you a little bit more flexibility. But just eat to nourish your body. Let your body heal. Enjoy your baby. You'll be back at it before you know it, and you're going to feel great. But be patient. Okay. Thank you so much, guys. You got it. Thanks for calling in. Appreciate it. Not enough is communicated appropriately to women. It's just, like, terrible. The information that's out there and the expectations for women who are fit is just, and again, I want to be clear, that doesn't mean between now and the two-year period she's not feeling good and fit. She'll make rapid progress. It's just you have to be realistic about what, you know, you have to recover and heal from completely. What I'm talking about is this. She'll get fit and healthy. So I'm not saying it's going to take two years to get fit and healthy and look good and all that stuff. That'll happen sooner. But she'll know this, and this is what you'll hear women who are sincere and honest who do this. They'll tell you this, like, I just don't feel like myself 100%. And then like two years later, like, oh, there it is. It's a new baseline that you have to work with. Well, especially someone like this who's a peak fitness person. Yes. 14 years of jiu-jitsu, training, climbing. That's a high bar. She'll be a bit high responder. For someone like that, it's a definite two-year because you're not going to feel peak you for a long time. But someone like the positive thing, because I felt like we just laid a bunch of bad news on her, is that her body will, like more than the average person. I guarantee she looks better than 99% of women. It feels better than 99% at this stage. That's also why it's so important for her to be dialed in with her recruitment process right now because otherwise, you know, you get strong, and then now we have these new bad patterns that we're seeing. And by the way, whenever we communicate something like this, remember we were coaches. I'm going to give somebody the general answer. Does that mean some people are not going to get there faster? Some people will get there faster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what I'm not going to say, which is a stupid mistake that coaches make, is tell them the best, best case scenario. You can be back to yourself in five, six months. And then poor girl is like a year later is like, what's going on? So like two years is generally what you'll experience. Our next caller is Alex from Washington. What's up, man? How you doing, Alex? What's happening? Hey, what's up, guys? Thanks for having me on. It's awesome to meet you. You got it, dude. How can I help you? Yeah, I originally wrote into the show to get some perspective on my fat loss goals. So I'm going to set the stage for you here with a few notes. I'm 35 years old, and when I reached out, I was 205 pounds. I had a DEXA scan from November that put me at 30% body fat, which was honestly really surprising to me because I work out all the time. I knew that I wasn't even close to my peak shape anymore, but I guess that I was in a bit of denial about the body fat that I had put on. I'm a new dad. My son was born in August, so I've had to reel back a few days in the gym per week. But I do have a modest home gym set up and a membership to a commercial gym that's right down the street from my house. It's really close. I lift push-pull legs three times a week, and I usually do about 20 minutes of low-intensity cardio afterwards. Up until recently, my calories were pretty inconsistent. I was eating anywhere from 1,800 calories per day to like the upper 2,000s, pretty big swings. And while I know I eat a lot of meat, I really wasn't tracking protein. So I was probably hovering around 100 grams of protein per day for a long time. I think that my maintenance calories is 2,500. Over the last two to three weeks, I've been tracking my calories, tracking my macros and my steps. I use MyFitnessPal to do all that. I've been eating about 2,000 calories per day. I've been hitting 150 to 200 grams of protein per day, 100 to 200 grams of carbs per day, depending on if I'm working out or if it's an off day. And I've been keeping the fats under 60 grams and averaging about 6,000 steps per day. So that's been about two to three weeks being really diligent. My weight has dropped from 205 to 196 as of today. I'm feeling great about the drop. I'm feeling like it's probably water weight, inflammation, glycogen. I want to make sure that I'm approaching this cut and my goal of reducing body fat sustainably and not do anything drastic and rebound. I've been on drastic cuts before as low as like 1600 calories for a long time. And, you know, I was able to achieve my goal, but it was just like not sustainable. And the season of life I'm in right now, it's just not the right plan for me. So basically, you know, my goal, all that is to say my goal is to get down to 15% body fat and would love your thoughts on, you know, how to move forward from here. Any advice? You said you're at about 2,400 calories. Right now, over the last two to three weeks, I've been eating pretty strictly 2,000 calories. I'm estimating my maintenance is 2,500. Yeah. So I'm estimating I'm in a slight deficit. So I think there's a couple things you could do. I think what you're doing is okay. You're actually on the right track. But I going to take a we going to go back for a second Before you got your DEXA scan how were you feeling Like how were you feeling fitness and health I was feeling really strong I felt bloated. Like, I knew I was, I, like, felt puffy. I felt like I was on, like, a heavy bulk. But I felt really strong. Sleep was really good. You know, everything. Energy, libido, all good? Yeah, energy, libido, everything was really good. I just wasn't happy with the mirror. So, yeah, but here's the deal because here's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing, like, I felt like I was doing all right, and then I got a dentist scan, and it changed how I felt. So I'm going to help you with that a little bit, okay? Don't get too hung up on a body fat test. Okay. Okay? Because it's like you could change everything just because a test said something. If you felt good, you're probably okay. Now, I like the direction you're going. There's only one thing I would change. A little bit higher fat. Yeah, your fat is too low. Yeah, a little bit higher fat. Yeah, a guy like you, you get down to 60, you're playing with too little fat. That's going to start feeling like crap. I think just a little bit. I think the bump in fat by 10 to 20 grams alone, and that'll bump your calories a little bit. I think you can hover around probably the 22 to 2300 calories. And you'll be fine. And you'll be fine. Yep. It'll be, yeah, that should lean you out and maybe even build a little bit of muscle. Just, I think you, like Sal said, I think you're on the right track. I think you were probably having big swings. It sounds like you knew that. Like you would have a low day and then you have a really high day. I'm guessing that on those really high days, you probably overate carb-type foods and probably didn't hit protein intake. On the low days, you probably didn't get enough protein in what you needed. And so now you're more and closer to the range of where you need to be. And I bet you can hover right around that 22 to 2400 range and actually see a nice body composition change. And stay fed so you don't feel like you're starving. Your energy should be okay. and you'll know because you'll be strong in the gym. You won't feel as strong as you do when you're eating 3,000 calories and you're totally filled up because there's a different feeling. But you should feel strong and good energy and good libido and good sleep and you should see a nice leaning out process. If you were my client, because the last thing that you said, Alex, is I want to do this in a sustainable way, and I've kind of crashed dieted before. So if you were my client, and I like that you said that, by the way, that's the number one concern as a coach for all my clients. That's number one because it's the most difficult thing. Losing body fat, building muscle, getting more fit, those are hard, but they pale in comparison to consistency over long periods of time. That's like the number one challenge. So what I would do with you is I would say, look, let's do this, Alex. Stop tracking everything. Hit your protein targets. Stick to whole natural foods. That's it. Don't eat anything that's processed. Lift weights three days a week, MAPS anabolic, not the PPL, whatever you're doing now. Go MAPS anabolic. and try to aim for about 8,000 steps a day because you're at 6,000. Just do that. Just hit protein, whole natural foods when you're hungry. Don't go processed. That will keep everything in check. Lift weights three days a week, some absenteebolics, hit 8,000 steps a day. Now you're going to get the results, and you're going to do it in a way that's sustainable. It's not going to feel like you're controlling everything, where at some point you're like, I want to get off of this. Yeah, yeah. I do feel like I need to control everything right now. Well, and part of the reason was because everything was, you know, chaos. It was totally uncontrolled. And I was like, all right, if I'm going to try to figure this out, let's try to control a few things and just see what happens. And then within two weeks, I was like, all right, I feel like I've lost some weight. And, you know, by listening to you guys a lot, like I knew that was probably going to happen. I was probably going to just shed a little bit of water weight inflammation. And I'm feeling a lot better. Strength has definitely dropped. It's not dropped dramatically, but strength has dropped. But that's interesting about the fats. Do you guys think that's low? Yeah, but stop tracking. Stop tracking everything. So I'm going to make it easier. Okay. The only things you need to control, hit your protein consistently every single day. Only eat whole natural foods. Hit 8,000 steps a day and lift weights. Don't track anything else. And eat when you're hungry. That's it. But eat a whole food and eat a protein first, right? So that's kind of like when I'm not tracking, I'm intuitive leading. I allow myself to eat when I want to eat. I just don't eat the processed shit or the garbage. I just go for a high-protein meal, and it'll kind of control itself. It's very reasonable that you'll go from 13% to probably 16%, 15% body fat doing this. Yeah. It's actually quite expected. You don't have to do anything else to kind of get there. Now, once you get to 15%, 16%, you're like, oh, cool, I want to get to 12% or 10%. Then we might need to track a little bit more, but I think at that point you'll feel great, and you'll be like, I'm cool. okay got it i'll send you yeah do you have maps anabolic no no i don't is it a three day a week plan yeah it's a three day a week plan it's a better three day week than a pool also yeah you're gonna hit you'll send the results just from that so that'll that'll help awesome yep yeah i've been doing ppl for years would love to check it out oh yeah this would be a great change this would be a good change yep awesome guys yeah well hey i appreciate the perspective i'll definitely put in practice. Check back with us in about 60 days. I'd like to hear where you're at. I think you're going to see, I think you're going to be really happy. Alex, how long have you been listening to the show? Just six months. I just found you guys within the last year. When I rode in, I think it was like six or seven months. I was about to take a flight. I was looking for fitness podcasts to listen to. I've been hammering my normal podcast, like JREs and stuff. I was like, what is this mind pump? I started listening and I was like, oh, okay. This is right up my alley. Yeah, good deal. We'll send you that program. Yeah, right on. Check back with – I want to hear from you in about two months. I think you're going to see a huge difference. Cool. All right. We'll do. Thanks, guys. All right. All right. You know what's – for us, he's only been listening for less than a year, so whatever, but it's surprising how long people will listen before they get a program, a MAPS program. Yeah. And just as for anybody listening right now – Because they're dudes. That's right. Thank you. It is always the guy. Hey, bro, it's stopping at – It's stopping and asking for directions, dog. It's stopping and asking for directions. I got this shit. That sounds like good advice. But I'm going to keep doing this. Except you don't. At some point, you keep taking the wrong turn. Listen here. If you listen to the show for a while, it's probably because you like us. You probably find some value. Just get a damn program. Get a damn program. Try it out for yourself. Maybe we know what we're talking about. And I'm going to tell you this. It'll save you so much time and money because otherwise you'll call us in three years. Hey, guys. I've been trying this. I've been trying that. It's not working. Hey, cool. Here's another thing. It's our thoughts on paper. I'll tell you this, too. I think push-pull legs is cool and all, but running it as a three-day-a-week routine and not doing it as a six-day routine. Or doing it forever. You know? You've got to change it at some point. In someone like this, full body probably works better. Typically does. No, no, no. For his lifestyle, it's going to be way better. Why? Anabalok is going to be right up his – that alone is already going to give himself good results. We'll see. And, you know, to touch on what you said, I think it's really good advice to not track. because I actually would want him, he's going to do anabolic, and he's going to build muscle. His appetite will go up. Yeah, his appetite will go up. And so what he thinks his maintenance is right now might change, and so the advice of like, hey, eat when you're hungry, just make good choices, and watch what happens. The secret to not rebounding, part of the secret, is to get to your goal with the least amount of control around everything as possible because that's what people end up letting go that causes the rebound. Our next caller is Brock from Utah. Brock, what's up? How you doing, Brock? What's going on? Wow, this is honestly crazy to be able to talk to you guys. I wrote out my question, so I'm going to read that because I am a rambler, and so I don't want to ramble on and, you know, want to take up too much of your time, guys. All right, let's do it. First of all, good morning, guys. I want to say thank you to all four of you for being such amazing role models to me in everything you do and say. ever since I found your podcast. Shout out to Chase Schooning and the Ever Forward podcast. I have been listening and passing on all of your information to anyone that asks or that will listen to me. Since I submitted my question, a lot has changed. I have since graduated from college and I'm still looking for a job related to my degree. So I'm still working the night shift. I also no longer have a gym membership. So I work out at home using adjustable dumbbells, a suspension trainer and bands. Um, I've already read and searched everything you guys talked about for night shift, but feel like I do better with, uh, MAPS anabolic style compared to MAPS 15. Um, I don't really track calories due to some obsessive habits with that, but I focus on eating protein first and trying to eat until I feel like I'm full. Um, and then I average about 13 or 14 steps a day while at work, but on the weekends, which is Wednesday night and Thursday night for me. Those next days I'm kind of lucky to get above 5K. So they do very kind of extreme. I'm not really in looking for like aesthetics or anything. I just kind of want to have a good life and, you know, kind of like what you guys have been talking a lot about performing well. And I wanted to really just focus on weight locks. I've lost about 60 pounds since going gluten-free about 10 months ago. I do appreciate you guys and take all of your advice and recommendations very seriously. So thank you. It sounds like you're doing a really good job already. The quick solve on the program thing I would do based off of what you're saying, like something in between the MAPS 15 and ABLE. You can double up the days on MAPS 15. Yeah, do a 30. Okay. So, yeah, do like a MAPS 30 or about 40 minutes is probably what it really takes to do that. And so you're doing four exercises a day. and really with someone like you that has a shift like that, I would actually decide if I was going to pair it up based off of how good a sleep and how rested and how good you feel. So actually I would run like the MAPS 15 protocol, but then when you have days where you're like well-rested, well-fed, you feel good, it's like, cool, I'm going to pair the next two days up. Days that you're like, not so much, then I might actually do just the MAPS 15. And so that's kind of how I would modify it for someone like you. I think that will solve the feeling like MAPS 15 isn't enough, but MAPS anabolic is too much sometimes. I think that will help. Yeah. Brock, real quick, you said you feel like MAPS anabolic is better than MAPS 15 for you. What do you mean by that? More so habitually than anything. I don't know if it was the mindset of just being able to feel like I've accomplished per se everything and like feeling like I did get a really solid workout in. I will say I'm not like the most consistent when it comes to working out. I do let things kind of sway me from stopping rather than like minimizing what I'm doing and still working out. So I'll do MAPS anabolic, and I feel good, I feel great, and then something happens, and I just stop completely. Whereas if I'm doing MAPS 15, I feel like I'm still leaving stuff on the table. Oh, well, you're wrong. I'm glad I asked. If you came back, oh, I get stronger, I get better performance or whatever, I'd be like, all right, we'll stay with that. But, yeah, you've got to just ignore your feelings. I think MAPS 15 is better for you, bro. Across the board. And just do your best to stay consistent. and you miss a day on it, then just pick back up where you left off. You'll get better results, dude. Okay. Listen, Brock, when it comes to consistency, I'm just going to tell you this, a little every day works better than a lot every few days. It just does. Over time, if I were to look at the total training that you did over six months or a year, you trying to follow one protocol versus the other, you're going to do more with the protocol that looks like a little bit every day. It's just how it works. And for night shift workers, it's like, bro, there's no comparison. Well, this is why I thought him pairing the 15 up, because if part of your problem is you're inconsistent with getting to the gym and you have a hard time probably getting to the gym six days a week and you don't see yourself doing that. Do you have a home gym? I just have some dumbbells and, like, the bands and suspension trainers. And do you use those or do you just go to the gym? me shine uh no i use those pretty regularly oh it doesn't matter dude doesn't matter yeah yeah go mass 15 stay consistent with it it sounds to me like the problem is you feel like it's not enough of a workout when you do so are you looking for that sore feeling are you looking for like is that what you're lacking or like it's not enough at one time yeah um there are days that i get you know like adam said earlier i get a ton of sleep i feel good i feel great and i'm like i'm ready to take on like a good solid workout. No, no, no. But then there are other days where, you know, no matter the amount of sleep, I get, I feel like. Yeah. Here's what's happening. You can also crank that intensity in a short amount of time. Yeah. Yeah. And here's what's happening to someone like you with a night shift. You're going to have those swings and energy because of your, your, your sleep schedule. Yeah. So it's not because one workout, because it's better to work out, you know, longer fluctuate a lot. In fact, you're better off leaving energy on the table when you have good energy. You'll get less of those days that you feel like you're dragging. Yeah, then consistency will be more likely for sure. Yeah, dude. It's going to give you more energy anyway, and it's going to give you less of those days where you feel like you're dragging. Okay. So you're better off going in with a lot of energy and feeling like, man, I could have done three times as much, and then just stopping. Then you are getting after it because that's going to contribute to more of those days where you feel like you're just dying. How is, like, your cravings and appetite with, like, the schedule and everything like that? I mean, you said you're pretty good with hitting the protein. How's your diet? My diet, my wife and I, we are focusing on whole foods. I would say it's about 90-10 whole foods. We do, like you, Adam, do have the occasional sweet tooth. Ice cream is pretty amazing. But we like our sweets here and there. My wife wants her sweet treat after every dinner. So, you know, we'll have something. We get, like, little yogis, their little fruit covered in yogurt for a sweet treat, something like that. But for the most part, it's whole foods. Do, like, salads, bowls, that kind of stuff. You're good, dude. Yeah, you're good. You're good. Mass 15, bro. Which one do you have? Do you have the traditional Mass 15? Maybe a new option. Yeah, just the traditional Mass 15. We bought it when you guys released it. We were like, wow, this is going to be a good program. and we've liked using it in the past, but as I have the gym membership and, you know, moving into the night shift, kind of throw everything through a loop. What do you think, Map Symmetry because he's got the dumbbells? Yeah, Map Symmetry 15? Yeah, I'd be up for that. All right, we're going to send you Map 15 Symmetry so you'll have another option. Oh, sweet. Thanks. You got it, dude. Stay the course though. It's not like you're doing good, bro. Yeah, bro. Yeah. Sweet. All right, bro. Thanks, guys. You got it, man. Right on. Yeah, I had to ask because I'm like, why is he saying he gets better? which would be, listen, it's possible but with a night shift it's less likely you'll get better results yeah, I was getting the impression that he struggles with being consistent lifting six days a week and so it was like stay with MAPS 15 when that happens, you would double yeah, when that happens, I would just double it up and then when it doesn't happen, then you run 15 but the other advice too, of just always running 15 is also yeah, because what he's saying is like, man, sometimes I just got a lot of energy and then sometimes I feel like I have no energy leave the energy on the table when you have a lot of energy. That helps. That'll carry into the rest of the week. 100%. Our next caller is Caitlin from New York. Hi, Caitlin. How you doing, Caitlin? Hi. How are you guys doing? Good. How can we help you? Good. Well, I'm super excited to be here. I just love the podcast. Thank you so much. I learn so much, and it's always so interesting. Thank you. So my question is, I'm a little nervous, so I'm going to read my email and try to stay on pace. Okay. I'm 42 years old. I'm about 5'5", 145 pounds. Body fat estimates 25%. I lift five days per week and run about five to six days per week. My goals are performance. I want faster 5K times, sprint speed, and getting stronger on squats, bedlifts, bench, and pull-ups. I also really struggle with body image and feel pressure to weigh less and look leaner. I eat about 2,400 calories. My lifts are improving. I'm running faster, but I don't feel lean enough. I feel like I don't look like I do all the work. I have a long history of running. I've always been a runner. In 2023, I started lifting, and I got into a strict calorie deficit, lost a bunch of weight, got down to 125, and felt really good there. Since then, I've gained about 15, 20 pounds. The scale says about seven pounds of, or like half and half muscle and fat. So I know there's been, you know, it's been productive, but I really don't like the weight. I don't like how I look. And so my question is, how do you balance training for performance while also chasing like aesthetic goals? And like how do you manage nutrition and et cetera? Caitlin, how long have you been listening to us for? Like a year and a half, two years. I feel like you know what's coming right now. I kind of do. I kind of do, yeah. Well, here, let me paraphrase. I want to be clear. Let's paraphrase the three goals. No, no, I'm going to just get us to wave clear. So you want to get faster 5K time, sprint time. You also want to get stronger on squats, deadlifts, bench press, and pull-ups, and you want to get leaner. Yeah. Whoa, that's cool, yeah. Is there anything you don't want? Yeah. You want to make 10 million dollars. You want to get taller? You want to try to get taller, too? I don't know. It's a lot. The only way to do all of that is if you pick one or two and focus on that and then pick the next one. So you're going to have to pick a couple. So what do you want? I hear the aesthetic thing is the thing that seems to be bothering you. And that's it. Aesthetic goal doesn't pair well with all that running. It's just your body is adapted to everything that you are doing to it. That's why it's not responding aesthetically. I bet your performance is great. I bet you're probably very fit and healthy and all the great markers are all good, which is a great place to be if you love doing all those things. But if you were a client of mine and you were doing all that stuff and you said, Adam, I'm doing all this stuff and I don't like the way I look or I want to change my body, I would say, well, we're going all about it wrong. This is not the way we change your aesthetics. You need to block it out so we focus on that. If you want to look a certain way and we want to do something, that's a total different focus. And what that looks like is scaling way back on all the running, scaling way back on how much we've been training, reverse dieting and building muscle to speed your metabolism up, and then getting into a cut. It looks so different than performance-based goals. You're not going to drop too much performance-wise, too, just FYI. You just need to shift your focus of priority completely so we allow the body to really respond appropriately to that. You come back, since you've been doing this for so long, your body's going to jump right back into performance with the aesthetics. The good news is we can focus on the aesthetics and probably see incredible strength gains in the squats and the deadlift and going that direction. Because that's what I'd want to do. What I'd want to do with you, if you were a client telling me that we want to change aesthetics, I'd say, cool, let's reverse diet and let's get strong. So that would be the focus would be to build some muscle, get better at those lifts, you're saying? that that's going to support our aesthetic goals, but we'd have to scale way back on all the running stuff. Just so you know, too, Caitlin, the average woman performs best right around 23% to 26% body fat. Okay. That's the average woman, typically, if you're looking for best performance. Yeah, you're in that. You're there. Yeah, so getting leaner tends to decrease performance because of what's required with diet and hormones. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So what you don't want to do is crash your hormones and all that stuff in pursuit of all these other things. Okay. So there's a couple ways we could approach it. What Adam said is the more traditional one, which would like this is aesthetics first. And let's get that first. There is a way to do all of it slowly. Okay. Really slow. Okay. But it looks like you're going to focus a little bit of strength training one week and then the next week a little bit on running. and you're going to alternate. I heard you say that like another episode ago, and I wondered if that would work. It would, but it's going to get you everything slower. So you'll kind of slowly get better at everything over time. Like out of a few months. That's right. So it would be like one day a week of strength training, four to five days a week of running, one week. The next week, four days a week of strength training, one day a week of running. Okay. Got it. Okay. So I could show that. And then to kind of go back, for the first step that you recommended was, like, get strong and get lean. And, like, take the running off to the side. That's right. That's the most. Yes. That's if you're like, I want aesthetics. I want to see the aesthetics. Yeah, if it's a major priority, that would be the move. And we're going to reverse diet. Okay. And the reason why I go that way is because I actually think I bet your performance is pretty badass. I think you're in optimal body fat range. I think you're probably pretty fast. I think you're probably doing pretty damn good performance-wise. We lost your camera for a second, Caitlin. I know. Sorry about that. I don't know why that happened. There it goes. Okay. But I feel like, at least what I'm hearing, and I could be wrong, but what I'm hearing from you is, like, I do all this work, and I don't have the look I want. And so if a client tells me that, I'm like, well, we're going about it the wrong way if we're looking for a look. And if you want to go for a look, let me handle that. We'll go for a look, and then we can always get back. And you're not going to, like Justin said, it's not like you can't run anymore. You won't be able to do these things. But that becomes less important right now. Let's go build the metabolism, build the physique that you want. And then we go, oh, man, Adam, I love this. I love the way I look with my legs, my arms, all the things that you care about. Then I go, cool, let's start to ramp up the running a little bit and see how it goes and see how much we can maintain this physique. And what that will probably look like is a much higher calorie intake with more muscle and you'll be fed more while you go back to more of your running. Are you hitting like at least 140 grams of protein a day? Yes, definitely. Yep, always. Okay, so MAPS anabolic would be your program, and you would really run like once, twice a week at the bottom. Okay, drop it down to that. Way down, yeah. And you're going to keep your protein high, probably go up to about 2,500 calories, and then just get strong. and then when you feel good, bump it up another little bit. And once you get up to like 27, 2800 calories or more, then you can start to cut and then you'll see the fat come off. Got it. Okay. And then later on I can go back to the running. Okay. Yes, you can. Now, if you want like coaching, if you want personal coaching, it's a much larger investment. But what a coach would do is walk you through the process step by step. You'd text them, hey, I feel this way. What do I do here? and then we also have whatever you're doing they got you we also have coaches much larger investment but you're going to have someone coach you through the whole process so if you want that we could have Doug make sure someone calls you yeah that would be awesome I would love that okay I'll have somebody I have somebody in mind for you so I'll have someone call you and then I'd love to check back in with you because we'll be checking up on your program as you go through it okay I would love that thank you so much right on Galen okay take care bye I love that I want yeah She's going through all of it. I want the buffet. I want to start a new company. I want to make $10 million the first year, but I want to be super present with my wife and my four kids, and I want to learn a new hobby. Okay. It would be the grace of all time. Let's pick one right now. I mean, I feel like it's typically the aesthetic thing, right? Because somebody who's doing that much work, that's what it is. It's like you're doing all these things, and you're like, I eat good. I'd run like crazy and this, but I just don't have this physique I want. And it's like, well, it's because we're going about it wrong. You're right. It's like that's not the process for the best. And, again, this is obviously why I asked how long you've been listening, because I feel like that's the theme of this show is that we're always telling people that cardio and running is not the best place to build a body you want. Like it's incredible. Yeah, for aesthetics. It's incredible for your heart, and it's good for being healthy and endurance. And endurance, yeah. But it's a terrible way to get the body you want. If you have these goals and I want shoulders and a butt and legs to look away, it's like that's not how you go about doing it. And so when you get someone who's doing this much work, they feel like, man, I should feel like I look better. But she's actually right. You nailed it. She's in the perfect place for performance. If your body fat percentage and she looks good, you're great. If you want to keep pushing the 5K thing and get faster and that, we can keep doing that. I think the problem is that people look at the elite athletes. Yeah, I know. Everybody stop comparing yourself to genetic anomalies. You don't, it's so rare. The chick on the cover of the magazine. The best body fat percentage across the board generally for men, for performance, is like 15, 16%. For women, it's like in the mid-20s. You need those energy stories. And there are those genetic anomalies. You'll see them. They're shredded and they're playing sports. You're not like that. Yeah. You're not. You're probably like the 99.99% of us. And it's a higher body fat percentage than having abs. Just this. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.