Hi, Matt here. We have two days left before we close our listener viewer survey. A big thank you to all of you who have already provided feedback. Please take a few minutes to share your input on the show. We still have a few prizes left to give to lucky respondents. Go to fastersmarter.io. slash survey to give us your input. That's fastersmarter.io slash survey. And now a word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. If you've ever thought, I know I can do more, but something's holding me back. You're not alone. Whether you're navigating career growth, seeking better balance, or wanting to communicate with more confidence, coaching can help you bridge the gap between intention and action. At strawberry.me, you'll get matched with a professional coach who's trained to help you clarify your goals, build lasting confidence, and make intentional choices professionally and personally. This is not therapy. It's not consulting. It's a thought partnership designed to help you take action with more clarity and purpose. I strongly believe in the value of coaching. All of us can benefit from the help of a coach. Visit strawberry.me slash smart to get matched up with your coach today. That's strawberry.me slash smart and get 50% off your first coaching session. It's the most affordable time ever to see if coaching is right for you. One of the best ways to improve your sense of well-being is through connection. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to speak with Sonia Lubomirski. Sonia is a distinguished professor of psychology at the University of California at Riverside. She's received many awards and accolades for her teaching and research. She's author of the bestselling, The How of Happiness, and Myths of Happiness. Her latest book is How to Feel Love with Harry Reese. Sonia, it is lovely to be here with you. When I was an undergrad here at Stanford, you were a grad student, and you were so kind to help me with statistics, which back then, and still to this day, challenged me. So thank you not only for being here, but thank you for helping the Matt of several decades ago to get out of this place and graduate. So sweet of you to say it. It's a pleasure to see you again. Yes, great. Shall we get started? Yes, absolutely. Your work has always been fascinating to me. It's always been fun to watch what you have done. You study happiness and well-being. Can you define your working definition of happiness, and how do you distinguish it from purpose and meaning? Great question to start with. I define happiness the way that researchers define happiness, which is that it really has two components. The first component is the experience of positive emotions. So happy people often experience joy, serenity, curiosity, pride, affection, not all the time, of course. And the second component is feeling like your life is good, that you're progressing towards your life goals at a good pace, that you're satisfied with your life. I like to think about these two components as being happy in your life and being happy with your life. You really kind of need both. And in terms of meaning and purpose, it's very highly correlated with happiness. People make a big deal about this distinction, but they almost always go together, right? It feels good to have meaning and purpose. And the second component of happiness, which is this life satisfaction component, is even more highly correlated. So when I'm satisfied with my life is when I have meaning and purpose. I really like this notion of happiness being with and in. And that's helpful because it distinguishes different target areas where we can work on that. And we'll talk about several ways that your work has shown that we can work on both of those. You are really well known for your work on gratitude interventions. In fact, I every night practice one of them. I have a gratitude journal. Can you talk to us about the value of gratitude and its impact on well-being and happiness? Well, my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, where we experimentally test things like gratitude practices back in 1998. And so basically, gratitude interventions are like clinical trials, but instead of testing a new vitamin or a vaccine, we're testing a gratitude practice. So basically, we and now many others have shown that if you express gratitude, different ways, it could be a journal, it could be a reflection. I mean, it could even be a painting, depending on your talents and skills and values. People feel more connected. People feel happier after expressing gratitude. And you can imagine that it's like a reframing of your life. It leads you to think more positively. Also, gratitude neutralizes negative emotions, right? It's hard to feel grateful and envious or grateful and resentful at the same time. I'd be curious if there's one particular intervention you practice, I will share that every night I do some journaling, I've talked about that before, and I'll write down what went well, what didn't go well in the day, especially around communication. And if there was a negative interaction, I will always make sure to follow it up with some gratitude for the day or for some experience. And it really does help me feel better. Is there a practice you put into your life? Yes, absolutely. Some of it is in the morning because I find myself feeling anxious a little bit when I wake up. And some of it is just talking to others. And so like I had a hard day the other day and I said to a friend, we're so lucky, right? So that's my gratitude practice, like reminding myself, oh my God, yes, this and this is happening and it's hard or it's bad, but really in the big scheme of things, we're so lucky. I like that idea of recognizing that we're fortunate and saying that internally helps. You published a fascinating study suggesting that when people are instructed to act extroverted, even if they're introverted, they experience a boost in their wellbeing. For our listeners, many of whom are introverted and get nervous in communication, how can they take this approach? Can you walk us through this? How does acting extroverted actually help you feel better? This finding surprised even us. This study was over the course of just one week. Now we let our participants define what they meant by extroverted, right? So if you're an introvert and we say, can you try to be more extroverted this week? It doesn't mean you have to be the life of the party. It doesn't mean you have to go to any parties actually. And I used to be actually very shy and in college, I would force myself to say at least one thing in every section, just to force myself to be a little bit more extroverted. And we thought that the introverts would sort of get exhausted. You know, the Susan Cain idea that introverts are exhausted by social interaction. And they didn't, maybe again, because we allowed them to do what they wanted, or maybe because it was just for one week. And I actually wanted to add something, someone that you also knew back from when you're an undergrad, Steve Cole and I, and one of my graduate students, Ramona Martinez, just this week published a paper where we followed up almost this exact study. We asked people to act extroverted, but we also measured their blood. So we took blood spots from them before and after. And this is very cool, like really hot off the presses. And we found that people who acted extroverted, not only did they become happier and more connected, but they were less lonely, but they showed changes in their RNA gene expression associated with a stronger immune profile. So acting more extroverted actually, maybe somehow got under the skin to boost their immune systems. The part that I think is really, I mean, there are many things interesting in here, but you let people define their view of extroversion. So it's not like you have to speak up and you have to move around and meet lots of people. Whatever you see is enough. And it gives permission, I guess, to do that. Small steps, right? Exactly. A major source of speaking anxiety, which I have spent a lot of my career studying, is what I call the comparison trap. Comparing our internal states to somebody else's external confidence. You've written extensively on how social comparison is what you call the thief of happiness. What's going on in that? And how can we reframe it so we aren't stealing from our own happiness? Couple of coincidences here. First of all, my own dissertation at Stanford was also about social comparison and happiness. And I found that people who are happier, basically, it's not that they didn't compare, because you can't help but see that person is more beautiful. That person makes more money. They just didn't care as much about it. And then the other minor coincidence is I have a newsletter and literally yesterday, my newsletter was called the comparison trap. How to stop sabotaging your happiness, because it's everywhere, and especially with social media, where now everyone's lives are up there for us to compare against every day. And so there's lots of advice about how not to compare. You can meditate, you can try to distract yourself. I like connection as opposed to comparison. If you see someone and you feel envious, send them or someone else a note of connection instead. Oh, that's really interesting. So when you feel inadequate or not living up to, reach out instead of become internal, which is really interesting and counterintuitive for sure. I think also what I have found helpful in the work I do and in my own life is it's very easy to see other people this way. But if you take a moment to reflect on times in your life where you've actually had success in that domain that can help too. Absolutely. So gratitude or celebrating yourself, capitalizing. I often think that self-absorption is really one of the most toxic things. Sometimes you have to think about yourself. The Dalai Lama actually, I had the fortune of visiting his holiness in India. And one of the quotes that stayed with me, this was about two years ago, a year and a half ago, he says something like self-absorption is the door to all misery. Oh wow, absolutely. I think you would agree, I'd love to hear. Reflection is important. I mean, we improve, we grow through reflection. So I'm putting it on the spot, but do you have ideas about how we can reflect without becoming self-absorbed? First of all, again, moderation and everything. There's actually some research on, I think it was something like self-focused versus self-reflection. So there's a kind of an intellectual reflection. It's the kind of thing that philosophers talk about. Know thyself, which is benefits. And it's the other kind, and I used to study rumination with Susan Ola Hoek, so much Stanford. And that's the kind of quote bad kind of harmful kind of reflection where you're just going in circles. Like going from A to B, back to A, back to B. You're not solving problems. You're not getting insights. You're just going around and around, and that's not helpful. So I think it's that intellectual piece where you go in with some specific curiosity and a specific goal, so you have an off-ramp to that cycling. One of your most famous interventions is the best possible self-writing exercise. Can you describe this? And I'll give you imaginary extra credit points if in your description, you talk about a communication related example. You're a teacher at heart. We sort of borrowed or stole this from a colleague named Laura King. And this idea is basically an optimistic thinking intervention where you imagine your best possible future self. So imagine in one year, in five years, with undergraduates, we usually use 10 years. You think in 10 years, all your dreams have come true. Your goals have been achieved, and you visualize that, and you write about it. But you don't just write about the achievement, you write how to get there. And often, students have told me that they've realized that sometimes they'll say, I didn't even know what my goals were until I wrote it down. A lot of people's goals are about extroversion, or about speaking in public, or just speaking up, maybe even in conflict discussions with their family, with their romantic partners. And so they feel like they're not assertive enough. And so that is actually one of the goals that people will write about. And imagine in five years, there you are. You're the best possible self in terms of this domain. And again, people say it helps them realize their goals and helps them realize that they're achievable, right? And when they break them up into baby steps, they realize they can take the first step and then the second step. Yeah, it makes it clear, and it gives you permission to explore, think, and actually then operationalize. It's a really powerful exercise. Before we get to talk about your new book, which is awesome, you are part of a group of people who've defined, in essence, a niche in psychology, positive psychology, taking a step back for those people who listen, who want to create a change in a well-established, establishment organization. I mean, you, among others, really carved out a niche. Can you think about what led to the success of that? How did you guys take something that, and I don't mean offense, but many people didn't think was important to study? I talked to a friend, I hadn't seen like 30 years, who was a student here at the time. And he said, wow, Sonia, you were really brave when you were a grad student studying happiness, because no one really was studying it. And I didn't think I was brave, but I was very anxious. I was like, what am I doing? People thought I was crazy. People thought happiness was unscientific. It was fuzzy. And I feel like in other areas of my life, I've often done things that really go against the grain, that people think I'm crazy, not just in research, lots of ways. And maybe I should take that as a compliment. When people say, what are you doing? You're crazy, go continue doing that. It's a good sign, do something that like, no one else is thinking about. Or sometimes you can make mistakes and go the wrong direction. But yeah, it definitely takes some courage and I guess resilience and resources to continue doing that. You must have great pride in seeing, there's now, not just in the academic world, but a whole industry around wellbeing and happiness. And I don't mean that in a negative way, although people are taking advantage of it. People are getting genuinely helped. There are people who are happier as a result of the work you and others did to get this out there. Was there ever a concerted effort where you and others who do your work came together and said, we need to really think about how we position and communicate this to make progress? There was one time, it was after September 11th. I remember getting together with Marty Seligman in Mexico-Semihai and like some other people, Bart Fredrickson in the field. And I remember Marty, he was the co-founder of the field. Is positive psychology, you know, is it important? Should we keep doing it? And then finally, it actually didn't take long before it hit us like absolutely, like even more than ever. In fact, the most common emotion people reported after 9-11 was gratitude. I mean, there was also fear and all kinds of other things. But gratitude was actually the most commonly reported. So wellbeing is what helps us get up and change the world. Because people often think, oh, people who are happier just self-focused, they're just gonna be selfish, they're gonna sit on the couch and do nothing, but no. But paper that has the most citations by far in my work is a paper that shows that happier people are more successful. They're the ones who are persevering more, they're more creative, they're more energy, they're healthier, they have better negotiation skills, they're better leaders, they're more productive. And so wellbeing is really important both in the good times and the bad times. So it sounds like personal tenacity, resilience, coming together with like-minded people, and that's how you create a movement, that's how you make a change. In your new book with Harry Reese, you use the metaphor of relationships as a seesaw. Can you explain what this is and how can we foster deeper relationships? Because your new book is all about blending relationships and happiness together. Yeah, we were just talking about happiness interventions. So I've been doing happiness interventions for decades. And then after a while, it hit me that almost all of the interventions that work to make people happier, the reason they work is they make people feel more connected to and loved by others. So when I write a gratitude letter to my best friend or my mom, it makes me feel more loved by them. And when I do an act of kindness for a friend or a colleague, it makes me feel closer to them. So Harry and I started talking about how really the key to happiness is feeling loved. And it's not just being loved, it's feeling loved. And then we decided to write a book about how to feel more loved. Because most people want to feel more loved and at least one relationship. And the seesaw is basically an approach to relationships, a really an approach to conversations that helps you feel more loved. So in a relationship you can think of as a series of conversations. So in your next conversation, how do you make the other person feel more loved and how do you make yourself feel more loved? And you start with the other person, actually. So I actually had this experience with a family member where I didn't feel as loved by her as I'd like to. And I was thinking, what do I do? And then I realized I need to make her feel loved first. And what you do first is you show genuine curiosity in her inner life, in her world. And then try to get her to open up and then listen when she opens up. Most of us are not very good listeners. The idea is that most of us have walls around us and we don't show that much of ourselves to each other. So how do I lift you up a little bit by showing genuine curiosity and really listening? And you know what? It doesn't actually happen that often. You probably know that most people are not great at that, right? So I show curiosity in you, which is hard to fake, right? And then it gives you the safety and the motivation to open up a little bit more. And then you reciprocate, hopefully. And the idea is that we lift each other up because the key to feeling loved is really knowing the other person and becoming known by the other person. Visual metaphors, I think, are really helpful. And I can see what you're talking about there. And I love re-envisioning relationships as conversations that are driven by curiosity and listening and respect and allowing the other person to be who they are. You said part of it is getting to know the other person but also part of it's getting to know ourselves. How can we do the self-knowing part? Self-knowing is really important too, and not just self-knowing, but self-love and self-compassion. Because if I don't have sort of compassion for myself and you show me love, that love is not gonna really get in. And we don't talk as much about self-knowing, but it's really more about showing a little bit more of ourselves to others. And one way to think about it is, imagine like a first date or the first time you have a meeting with a professional colleague. What are we trying to do? Usually we're trying to just impress each other. And that's very human, that's very normal. And so let's say I spend the whole time trying to impress you. I might succeed in impressing you, but it's not gonna forge a connection. It's not gonna make either of us feel loved. And what makes us feel loved is by lowering those walls a bit and being more vulnerable. And by vulnerable, I don't mean like trauma dumping and telling you all my biggest secrets. You know, you have to pace yourself. You've probably had this experience where someone just reveals something. All of a sudden you're like, wow. It's like they break the fourth wall and it changes the dynamic completely. And so it's really about me getting to know you a little bit better and then you getting to know me a little better, the walls come down a little bit more. If you only see the tip of myself, maybe I'll be admired, but not loved. Oh, that's an interesting distinction, admired but loved, the distinction there. I have to think about that. But I like this idea of back and forth, of reciprocity, of gradualness. All of that makes a lot of sense. I knew this was gonna be a wonderful conversation. So your work is something that I've admired for a long time and put into practice in my own life. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. If you've ever felt like you're trying to do everything yourself, especially when the stakes are high, you're not alone. One of the biggest shifts I see in effective leaders growing their organizations comes from focusing on the right things. But that's hard to do when you're stretched thin. You need to be able to delegate some tasks to competent professionals. That's where Upwork can really help. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across areas like marketing, development, data and analytics, and more. It gives you fast access to specialized talent so you can move quickly, fill key gaps, and scale your work without taking on full-time overhead. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get support scoping your project so you can hire with confidence. It's a simple way to focus your time where it matters most. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com. And now, back to our conversation. As you know, we end all these conversations with three questions. One, I make up just for you and two, I've been asking everybody, are you up for that? Yes, absolutely. I would really like to get your thoughts on how this all plays out in a world of social media. In social media, people are just creating highlight reels. They're showing the best of. It almost seems to work against this deeper connection you're talking about. What are your thoughts about how this fits in or helps or detracts from what you're talking about? So much to say about that. It's nuanced, right? Because of course, some people feel much more connected with social media. If you have family in a different country, it's really wonderful to be so connected. And I'm not the first person to say that human beings are wired for face-to-face social connection. We're wired for voice. We actually have a study showing that voice is what makes us feel most connected. And then an even bigger danger, I think, is our AI companions, because they are the best listeners. I really feel like maybe it's okay. Some of these things can supplement our connections as long as we're grounded in IRL. I think it comes back to what you've talked about before, moderation. When you go to extremes, it can be troubling. Tell me, who's a communicator you admire and why? Okay, Esther Perrell. I love her. And it's partly because, well, first of all, I'm fascinated by everything she says. The way she says it, she has a sense of expertise, but also she surprises me. So a lot of communicators, you listen to them a few times and then you hear the same thing over and over again. And every time I listen to Esther Perrell, I hear something a little bit different. I'm like, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. So yeah, she's my role model. That's great. She's awesome. And if people don't know Esther Perrell, they should watch her TED Talk. So listen to her show. It's great. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? So I guess one of them would be what I call an open heart, which is just positive intent. I come with good wishes. I wish you well. I want you to be happy. I want this to go well. That's the positive intent. So that'd be the first ingredient. And the second is this having an emotional intelligence. So being attuned to the other person. So I guess the second one would be attunement. It's just very hard to teach attunement. I guess the third, I was going to say listening, but that's really very similar to attunement, but truly listening. When you think about a lot of like secrets to things going well, it's just real listening, true listening to the other person. I like this idea of positive intent. Come with positive intent. We've done a lot of conversations with people who are into improvisation. And they start from positive intent to the interaction. I like that a lot. I like the distinction you made between attunement and listening. This notion of attunement is, it's not just listening to what's said, but how it said, how much is said, your relationship to what's said. It's tough, but it makes a big difference. Sonia, it was lovely to reconnect with you after all these years. Lots of gratitude for not just what you shared today, but for what you did for me in the past. And thank you for the work you do and for helping so many people form closer relationships and feel better and have more happiness in their lives. Thank you so much. And thank you for having an impact with all the listeners. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about happiness and well-being, please listen to our special mini-series on the topic, including episodes 179 through 182, with guests like Arthur Brooks and Laurie Santos. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out Fastersmartr.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining the Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community, at Fastersmartr.io slash learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI coach, and a book club. Again, that's Fastersmartr.io slash learning to become a part of our global learning community. Before we wrap up, I just wanna say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.
