Hospitality Series (Pt. 2): Drew Nieporent on Creating Celebrity Chefs, A-List Partnerships, and Going 40 for 40!!

Today on The Chef's Cut, we are finally getting back to our three-part hospitality series, and we have a very special guest for Part 2 who is a living legend. Have you ever wondered how the celebrity chef became a thing? Who decided that you had to leave a credit card to hold a restaurant reservation? And who ushered in the era of A-list actors investing in restaurants? Our guest today single-handedly created celebrity chefs as we know them. He turned Nobu into a global phenomenon and he's the reason that you have to give a credit card to hold a reservation. We're talking about how he kicked off the era of the celebrity chef. I put her name on the menu. He comes over and we say, what the hell is your name on the menu? Something he used to always pack on trips. I went to Florida, I plug in the fax machine so they could fax me the actual reservation sheet. That is a little extreme. And the massive celebrities he partnered with in his restaurants. Sean Penn, Bill Murray, Mikhail Baryshnikov, Christopher Walken, Ed Harris. Have I dropped enough names? If you haven't guessed, it is legendary restaurateur and author Drew Neaprint. But first, Chef's Cut Nation, we need 10 seconds of your time. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Your support is the reason that we've grown so fast and your support is going to help us keep going. Let's get started. You know, there are some people in this industry who are like legendary. Like this, this guest today is a living fucking legend. He is like a Titan who set the tone for so many things in our industry. Like if you've ever, I mean, for good or bad, if you've ever had to leave a credit card to hold a reservation, if you've ever had a favorite celebrity chef, if you've ever heard of a Nobu restaurant or heard of a chef's name being on the menu and knowing who a chef is, this person is probably the most influential restaurateur who has changed so much about our industry that most people have never heard of. Yeah, they have no idea of like the lore. And it's like kind of one of those great, you know, like, yes, he's been at the forefront. But it's also, you know, as a restaurateur and not a chef, his chefs have become so big and so, you know, mainstream. He's kind of, you know, coming a little more behind the scenes, but it's had such a great impact on what you and I both do. But restaurants, the legacy of like, like Monster, you know, Elizabeth Faulkner, Chris Cosantino, Tracy D'Oreggio, I mean, I mean, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, would put you in a rare flight. It's like, you would be like, oh man, this is one of the greatest restaurant tours of all time because you started Nobu. You know, we try to try back at grill though. Yeah. Would be grounds for that. Regis almost. How deep it is. It's an unfair standard of like, oh, this is what I'm shooting for. You know what I mean? That's why it's like the absurdity of like, you know, seeing the name, the title of restaurant tour next to my name. I'm like, no, this is a restaurant tour. I'm so jagged off who, you know, to be from the South side, you know what I mean? It is just grinded it out. But like this is a restaurant tour. What I think of it and its truest form. So super excited. I don't have Drew on the show today. Man, let's get into it, Joe. Drew, one thing that we find incredibly interesting, I know, is that so you were the first person to put a chef's name on the menu. So you kind of helped create, as we know it today, what a celebrity chef is known for a restaurant and bringing them out of the kitchen. You also worked with like actual celebrities. Like you were partners with Robert De Niro and you nurtured that relationship between him and Nobu to open the first Nobu in New York and then open in London and all this. So, you know, you partnered with Robert De Niro for Tribeca Grill also, which is another stellar restaurant that has a huge legacy here in New York. What is it like? Are celebrities good business partners or do they just help create a splashy opening and create longevity? Well, in 1990, when we opened Tribeca Grill, plan in Hollywood had preceded us. So Plain Hollywood was Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger. But restaurant itself, Plain Hollywood was a complete and utter disaster. So it shows you how stupid people are because they're going to go to a restaurant owned by those three idiots and, you know, the food is like inedible. So we open in the middle of no place, Tribeca, Sean Penn, Bill Murray, Mikhail Baryshnikov, Christopher Walken, Ed Harris. Have I dropped enough names? Those guys, this is 1990. And then Mimi Sheridan, who had been a very difficult food critic for the New York Times, came in and she had a newsletter and she said the food is is better than the celebrity watching. So the minute we had street cred, meaning that the food was good, New York magazine, Gail Green was a terrific writer. She gave us an incredible write up as well. And then we got two stars from Brian Miller, which was perfect. And the only time Tribeca Grill ever was reviewed in 38 years, one time. By Brian Miller, that lasted 38 years. So the bottom line is I don't care if you're owned by the pope or, you know, the food has to be good. That's the only way you have longevity. You know, let's face it, a lot of times you see an opening of a restaurant. You look at a photograph or maybe you go there. You're my oh, it's incredible. I got to come here and you don't know who the chef is. You don't know what the menu is or the prices. But the place is so stellar because of the interior design that you want to go. OK, that motivates some people. And of course, if you have celebrity ownership, that motivates some other people. Oh, my God, Taylor Swift ate here yesterday. We have to go here. And you can see on Instagram, obviously, that motivates a lot of people. But at the end of the day, I'm old school. You know, I can't help it. I mean, I was born in 1955. So, you know, my my formula is very simple. Serve great food in a timely fashion, by the way. The food has to come out of the kitchen. That's a enormous problem, almost in every restaurant. Because people somehow design things with too much too many elements and takes forever. But the bottom line is that has served me whatever I've done. There's 57 Nobu's, but that's not my thing. I have opened 40 separate restaurants, which, by the way, is not the way to do it today. But back then it was like making a movie. Each one had a different plot and different actors and, you know, the different fare. You and Joe actually have a ton in common. You won Outstanding Restorateur in 2009 from the James Beard Foundation. Joe is nominated this year for Outstanding Restorateur. With his group, it's a title that back in the day, you heard more about restaurateurs. You were responsible for ushering in the age of the celebrity chef and bringing the chef's name to the forefront. So now the role of the restaurateur isn't necessarily as known. So what is your definition of the role of a restaurateur? That's a good one. And by the way, they never at the James Beard Awards had a restaurateur of the year award. So when they when they put it in the first year, of course, who wins the Pope of of America, Danny Meyer, of course, he won. But then the next year it was Rich Melman, Piero Salvatio, Joe Dronaporn and Daniel Belood. Daniel Belood won. Then the third year was and Thomas Keller and Thomas Keller won. The fourth year, and Mario Batali and Mario Batali won. So I was pissed off because the chef's award and they kept throwing the chefs into the rest of the tour. They came over and they said, listen, listen, you're going to be happy this year. The criteria for the rest of the tour of the year is you cannot have been a chef. So of course, I won that year, 2009. So now because they've changed the whole beard award thing and it's it's it's changed quite a bit. The criteria has changed. So Stuart Brioza, who is my chef at Rubicon, he's also nominated for rest of the tour of the year. Chefs are restaurateurs. They are. They run restaurants, especially the ones they own. But a restaurateur is over here. OK. And a chef is over here. Let's just say. And for me, a restaurateur is somebody who's worked their way up. In the industry has worked for other people, you know, rubs together a couple of nickels opens their own business. Jeffrey's a carrier one day. I don't know why we were talking about, I said, you know, I'm not a chef. I'm a restaurateur and I'm looking at this guy. And when I walked down the street and people recognize me for whatever reason, they go, Chef, because they can't say Mr. Restorator, that's ridiculous. So I said, Jeffrey, let me explain something. People, they love you being a chef. Yeah, you're a restaurateur. You open and close a lot of restaurants, I understand. But the definition for a chef is much better than a restaurateur. The restaurateur is a rarefied position. They're very few. Yeah, I mean, you guys set the tone for the whole business. You know, usually the restaurateur like creates the concept behind what the restaurant is going to be, how the decor is going to evoke or kind of display what that concept is, because you can't have those two things disjointed. It's a whole experience. It's not just the menu. Right. But in the 60s and the 70s, the chef was an employee. The restaurateur or a family business who hired a chef. They didn't promote the chef. In 1982, I was hired as a general manager and I put Leslie Revson was our chef. A woman chef in New York, very few at the time. I put her name on the menu. He comes over to me, he says, what the hell is your name on the menu? I get, well, it's like a movie. You know, you put the actors on the poster and he goes, yeah, but and meanwhile, he was paying her a fortune. But the point is, I always believe that the chef. I believe to this moment, actually, that the personality of the chef, the character of the chef really embodies the restaurant. You can't just replace that person. He's yeah, I was thinking like a rut like when I think about restaurant tours, you know, I think of like the used the Danny Myers, the Kevin Babes, these people who came up in the industry and then the running restaurants, like working floors, like looking at all the little details. And I think, you know, getting into one of those things, like one of the questions I really wanted to ask you is, I mean, the list of chefs you've worked for over the years is crazy, you know, from Nobu to Boulet to Paul Lieberot to Tracy Diderdard, to I mean, the list is unreal. But like, how do you, when you look at a young chef coming up, when you see someone out there in the wild, either whether they're coming up in your ranks or from somewhere else, how do you look at them? How do you judge that talent? Like, what's your criteria? That's the difference between somebody who's just a really talented, great cook and somebody who you're like, I can build something around them. Whenever I would have a project or for that matter, had to replace a chef, I'd make a list of people I was interested in. Because of course, not everybody's going to want to work with you. And whoever I chose on that list, varying degrees of success, the others on that list also had great success. So it did prove to me that I kind of understood who was talented and who was not. But at the end of the day, I don't need somebody to be supplicant. I don't need somebody to kiss my ass or listen to what I do. All I need is somebody who wants to play music with you. So like when you play music with somebody, you have to listen to the other person in order for you to be able to play together. And the unfortunate thing and it comes out in my book is I chose some really talented people who at the end of the day, when we got the three stars, they wanted to take the three stars, put in their bag, walk across the street. Fuck you. And that hurt the most. When you opened Montreche in 85, was it? And then later on in the same space, wound up opening two more restaurants. Three, three star reviews in a row. I think that's some kind of record. I don't think any restaurateur has done that. You did it with Montreche, with David Boulez, Cortone, Paul Lee Brandt and Marcus Glocker with the tarred, like all stellar chefs that you found and opened restaurants around this chef. One space, not a great space, by the way, but in a sleepy block on Tribeca, over a 38 year period, got three stars again and again and again. So what is what is a detail as a restaurateur? What is a detail that you in your 40 plus year career, opening 40 restaurants? What is a detail that you obsess over that guests may not even notice? Well, I just think it's the way you conduct yourself. In other words, the fish stings from the head. So you yourself, you know, you can drink in front of your staff. You have to be an example, you know, literally a purity sometimes because the smallest little thing will out itself. You want a certain standard in the food and in the service. And the second you slip up and you do something stupid on a personal level, your staff is going to see you doing that. So the customers are not going to see your education, the fact that I went to Cornell Hotel School. The customers are going to see that you worked on a cruise ship when you were 18 years old as a waiter and you know what you're talking about. And the customers don't care, by the way, but your staff sees everything. They see the way you conduct yourself. That's why a lot of very successful restaurateurs are actually absentee. You know, they can screw up off for a message. He said, but you know, I'll give you an example. I said, but no, okay. There are 57 no blues around the world. 57. And I love no, but I'll tell you what, if no, but was that any particular location, it wouldn't work. He get people nuts because, you know, he's very critical about certain things. You have to know when to put pressure on and when not to put pressure on. But the whole thing is that you have to set a standard of excellence and then you improve upon it every year. And the way you improve upon it is you treat your staff with dignity and respect. And the chef you pray wants to stay with you. You know, in my, my era, in the 80s and 90s, you know, it's like the Yankees. You might have a good player, but you don't make him your partner. So now the chefs are made partners, which in the theory of the money person makes them stick to restaurant, you know, feels like if they have a piece of the action, they're not going to leave readily. And that's not necessarily the truth. Yeah, they leave anyway. But the reality is, you know, it's a very delicate balance. The fact that my restaurant stood the test of time. That's incredible. I mean, that's like, yeah, I can't even believe that. One of the things I wonder about when I see people who have done this successfully for years, what are the things that you learn to let go of where you're like, these are things that I have to let the team handle. They can't be me things. And what are things that you're like, no matter what, I have to hold on to this. And are there specific things or does it vary? You know, the thing that always I laugh at is like, you know, people when we're talking, they say, oh, you must be a really good business person. And I'm not. I'm not a good numbers person. I'm not a good business person. I theoretically, I do. This is the way I open. I open a restaurant. I make sure the food is good. Price not too crazy. That's an important thing. But now restaurants are ridiculous. Price wise, try to hire people that I believe are competent. And I just let it evolve naturally. I swear to God, I do not worry about the bottom line ever. Now, if you're losing money, obviously, you have to watch. Generally speaking, that's the way that's my motor. I open a restaurant and I let it go. I let it be. I let it be a natural. I don't know, Drew, I'm going to call a little bit of bullshit here, because in your book, you said that you used to travel with a fucking fax machine and you know, that was that's different. Adrian, Adrian, the reason New York for a while was like, it was where you sit versus what you wait. I'll give you a quick example. Morgan was a Monday night, which is supposed to be quiet night. And it was very busy. And I have a French waiter, French, while he comes over to me, says, Mr. Ford wants to come in at eight o'clock. I said, just take it, just take it. You know, I was running around for whatever. Eight o'clock comes around, Malcolm Forbes walks in the door. And at that time, he was a big shot. And they they reviewed restaurants in the Forbes. No big deal, but. And I had the shittiest table in the whole restaurant. One table left and he sat in the shittiest table. I think he had a good time. But because the French guy goes forward and not Forbes. I went to Florida, plug in the fax machine so they could fax me the actual reservation sheet. That is a little extreme, but that's not really a business thing. That's more personal services. OK, because, you know, it's as as you manage businesses and as you manage people. And I know how Joe is with his restaurants. There are things that that restaurateurs and business owners obsess over. And it's like I want to let the team manage this thing, but you still feel so personally vested in it. And when, you know, in your book, you talked about the reservation list. And that is true. I mean, it was a different time. There was no Rezzi, no open table. People literally had to call and make reservations. And you would do a lot of that. You would sit outside the restaurants and literally handwrite the reservation sheets for each service. I'll just let you know that when we got three stars for more, Shay, in April of 1985, the phone never stopped ringing. I mean, it was constant, constant. And and and we'd actually have to put a recording on after five o'clock so we could go to work because we didn't want to pay somebody to just say no to people that they couldn't come in. And then, you know, the stupid things in the restaurant business, like the no shows and the concierges, you know, make fake reservations and then they don't show up and all that, you know, stuff you learn, you know, as you go along, obviously. But I didn't. I mean, you were the first person to institute the policy of making people leave a credit card to hold the table. When you asked when you told somebody you were going to take a credit card, it was like, you know, like you were effing your mother. I mean, it was like it was they were outraged. What are you talking about? I mean, literally one time somebody didn't show up. So I called the number and they go, oh, he's out for dinner. And the baby said, and said, well, where is he? And she gives me the number. So I called the number and it's Lafayette, John George's restaurant at that time. And I knew the general manager. I said, could you bring doctor blah, blah, you know, to the phone and comes to the phone. You know, this is during the point from Morsi where you had a reservation, but you didn't show up and I just, you know, I'm coming to your office. I'm going to make a reservation number to cancel last minute so that you don't have it. You know, I mean, she's never on the phone with these people. I would do that. That's what I also calling someone at a restaurant and like, having the GM go get them is such another era that's like so cool. You know what I mean? It's like you call the GM guy, go get this guy out of his seat and bring him the phone is that's such a flex. That's awesome. I love it. I will find you. How about this one? How about the way it comes in? A woman says the fish is not fresh. So I go to the table. I said, excuse me. I said, what's the problem? This, this is not fresh fish. I go into the walking box. I take out a whole fucking salmon. And I walked it right over to the table and I said, which part of this is not fresh to you? The whole fish. I mean, it's like, you know, here's the thing I would say. This is kind of a lesson. I don't think it's in the book, but you're going to have a perfect night. Everything goes well and one person mugs you. That's what I call it a mugging. And it was the whole day. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what you were. That's what you remember. Right. Right. As a restaurateur, you have to believe. You can't let that person or that incident cloud everything else, but it does. He said you were never interested in opening the exact same cookie cutter restaurant in different locations that you were more about each one having its own identity. Exactly. And I thought that was really cool because Rubicon in San Francisco, very different from Montreux or Tribeca Grill or Nobu. You know, it's like they all kind of stood alone. They had their own chefs. They had their own identity. You also ushered in like a whole wave of, you know, now what are like celebrity and some of the most well known sommeliers in the industry and beverage professionals. Yeah. The beverage thing cannot be underestimated. I was a captain at Lugrenwe, which was a four star restaurant when I was working there. And one night I'm pouring the more shade for a customer and I just look at the bottle and I'm like, I was going to open a restaurant. My first restaurant was going to be called the Silverado Trail, but I'm looking at this more sham. I was like, why am I going to try to read about the real more shade? That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to call it more shade. And then I ran the New York marathon in 1983 and this whirlwind trip in California dozens of restaurants. And the last place was David Boulet at Sutter 500. And the food was ridiculous. It was so amazing. But he's in California. When I got back to New York, you know, I called him, would you ever consider? And a very tough guy, David Boulet. I mean, the greatest probably, you know, God rest his soul. Great chef, but he was impossible to deal with. Yet we opened the first restaurant with a 16, one, six, three course menu, which is insane. It's insane. Even for the time, I'm sure it was like well priced. No, I like when we was like $75 and you could make money to charge you $16. But then when we got the three stars was in because anybody can go there. Just you couldn't find the place because it's on a mispadot street. Right. Tribeca was no man's land back then. Like Tribeca was not cool. Tribeca was not flashy. It was not a cool neighborhood. And when you opened the restaurant, it brought it up. The whole thing for me was because of my growing up with my dad working with the state liquor authority and licensing all these different restaurants. I always wanted to do that. In other words, I always wanted to be able to conceptualize and do all these different restaurants. And guess what? I did. The reason I wrote this book is because I always look at a 60 minutes interview where they're interviewing Bob Dylan. Ed Bradley's interviewing Bob Dylan. And he looks at it and he goes, these songs that you write, how do you do it? Bob Dylan's like, I don't know. And I was like, what do you mean? Bob Dylan doesn't know. So I kind of feel that way now. It's like, it's like, I see the body of my work and I'm like, oh my God. I don't know. I don't know how to pull this off, but I did. It's kind of like just keep waking up and keep grinding at it. It's just like, you know, we just kind of keep doing stuff and, you know, putting the work in and you know, to me that you just hope it keeps going good. I think it's almost like parenting. And it's like realizing, I feel like growth and restaurants, the more you get up and it is like realizing it's like, it's kind of the same thing. I would just try to make plans, try to make it to be like, you believe that one worked. Yeah. But I would just tell you that number one, you got a strike. While the kettle is hot. That's a number one. And number two, never delude yourself. In other words, you know, if the numbers, like the, you know, the rent is always the first thing. If the landlord is going to be very, you know, stingy and difficult at the very beginning, that's the way it's going to work towards the end. Brachet had a three page lease. And when he died, his son took over and he never hosed us. And the reality is I literally 38 years later sold the restaurant to a husband and wife, husband as a chef. And their rent is $20,000 a month, less than Frenchette, which is right next door. So that's a quarter of a million dollars. That's in their pocket every year. And by the way, I sold them this restaurant. They got three stars. So not only why restaurant get three stars, but they also sold them to not only my restaurant get three stars three times, they just got three stars. You know, so there's this synergy. But for you, like you're doing this now, don't, you know, don't delude yourself. And then, you know, there's also power in the brand. You know, in other words, like, like when, when I would look at other, you know, places to do no group, I was like, we're so busy. Why are we going to screw this thing up by opening another one? But it's like Phantom of the Opera still playing 30 years later. So, Drew, you know, you've talked about Mimi Sheridan. You've seen generations of food critics come from the New York Times, other publications, legacy publications. And you had some really close relationships with some of these food critics. And then towards kind of the end of your career, when you were kind of starting to step away and sell the space was when online reviews started becoming a thing. You know, the crowdsourced kind of thing, the rise of the food influencer. And that was kind of in its early stages. But what do you think about those crowdsourced public reviews? Do you trust them as much as the journalists who, you know, were a little more embedded in that world? I absolutely don't trust. I read them, but I don't trust them. Listen, I'm very fortunate because my restaurants have always been well received. When people are critical, as long as the criticism is constructed, when it's stupid, it's like I look back on the food critics, they had too much power, especially the New York Times. And their qualifications were various. Some were more qualified than others. We all revere Ruth Raishel. I mean, you know, and when she became the food critic, the West Coast rest reserves called the Southern Pogos, you're in trouble. She's going to kill you. But she was very fair and she knew her job. I never wanted to wake up and read my obituary in the New York Times. So I made it my business to understand the critics. When Frank Bruni, for instance, he hated Paul LeBrent. Paul LeBrent designed a restaurant in the Helmsley Palace. That was like a three star restaurant with your eyes closed. And he gave it to stars and he knocked it. So I go to Paul LeBrent, you know, and I'm like, you know, this guy's, you know, he's the next three star chef. So he decides he's going to do this restaurant with me, Cortona. We redesigned it. No Bruni, no Bruni, no Bruni. And then one night it's like nine thirty. I didn't even look at the party coming in. I was seating the room. I was at the door and I seat the table on the next thing you know, Frank Bruni is like literally in my face going, it's his birthday. One of his guests. And as they turn around, my staff's behind me like, you know, you know, because I had trained them to know what this guy looked like. Because it was Frank Bruni at that time, had this extreme power. Now they made a movie about this called a matter of taste. It actually won a James Beard journalism award about Cortona. Paul LeBrent. You know, and Frank Bruni is in the movie. And Frank Bruni. Oh, when he gave him the three star review. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. You know, and by the way, by the way, it was so unusual because the review came out online, which was at that time, it was like, oh, maybe old 506, something like that. It was very unusual to get the review not on a specific day in the paper. It was online. So the filmmaker happened to be in the restaurant and I go to the filmmaker and I go, listen, the review came out. I haven't read it yet. Why don't you film me reading it to the staff? And, you know, so she does. And I get to the end of the review and there's no stars attached. Not they're just not there. So he's like, oh, my God, I don't think, you know, I'm like, you know, you know, because there it basically says, I thought we were going to get actually the week before he gave three stars, the momofuko, which was ridiculous, by the way. So I thought, well, as I'm reading this review, read so well, we're going to get four stars. But there's a moment he says, but unlike La Bernardin, Danielle, it falls just below. So basically, we know we got three stars, which is all. OK. Because, you know, if you get four stars, guess what? It it's only down from there. Right. And I mean, Paul Lebrant is such like an intense guy. He actually judged an episode, one of the challenges of our season of Top Chef Joe. Do you remember that? Yeah, we were on top of the mountain. Were you kicked off that time or were you there? Oh, I was there. OK. I was on the comeback trail. I was on the comeback trail. And he's like, he's super intense, but he's got this like cherubic kind of baby face and a kind of a soft spoken demeanor. But he's got that kind of vibe where you're like, no, don't set him off. Like he just has that feeling about him, super intense. So I can imagine him pacing while you're like reading that review out. Yeah. Well, I mean, the movie is extraordinary. I watched the movie now and it's it was a really well done film about our industry. And it was a feel good story. And of course, so what did Paul Lebrant do? Cook comes out of the kitchen at court down. He comes to me goes, when are we going to Brooklyn? I like, what are you talking about? Because Paul told us we're all going to be in Brooklyn. So he hadn't said anything to me. I find out place in Williamsburg, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When I finally sit down with him, he's like, oh, I was going to tell you I'm keeping I want to keep the court down, but I'm going to go. Paul, let me explain. I don't want to compete with myself. You're going to make a hamburger in Williamsburg, and everyone's going to go over there and rave about your hamburger and not come here. You know, and as it was, we weren't that busy, even with a three star review is kind of strange thing. So I let him lose. And that's that's when we eventually did the targe, which, of course, that three stars best in the restaurant. So I mean, look, Paul Lebrant tremendously talented guy. Where is he right now? That's so he hasn't he literally. When he when after Cortoni went to the A was called the Elm in the home and it did nothing. I mean, that's 20 years ago. It's insane. Yeah. It's insane. But yeah, companies to probably pay him to endorse a product or something like that. So and do some consulting things. Not a world that I live in, but it's a different world. Yeah, it's so crazy. Like back in the day, like people used to contact the restaurateur to open a space. And then the restaurateur would find the chef. Now people are contacting the chef directly. So the chef is more the business person and the food. Like that's a lot. That's a lot for one person to kind of handle on their own. But as you look back, because again, this is like, you know, we're doing this for the benefit of Joe, you know, he's he's in his early restaurateur era. And, you know, these are all lessons for Joe to learn throughout the rest of what is sure to be a stellar career. What matters more to you now, looking back at some of your your legacy? Is it the restaurants themselves or is it the people who have come through them front and back of house? No, I think the people at the end of the day, you know, first of all, the word that just every single person uses to I'm blue in the face is the team, the team, the team. OK, I get it. But I never use that term. It's just I always treated everybody, in my opinion, with dignity. That's the key element. And then it used to it used to bother me quite a bit, quite frankly. Sometimes I'd say, well, where's Lindsay? Oh, she left. What do you mean? You know, didn't say goodbye. You've been signing this person's check for, you know, three years or whatever. But when people decide to leave and if they're not going to say goodbye as they leave out the door, that's their decision. I mean, it's I've worked with so many people. That's the most gratifying thing. Without question, people, especially now, where information is so fluid and so fast, they don't remember anything. I mean, people in our it is so many unbelievable restaurants that are in the graveyard of, you know, in New York, you know, twenty one club in the four seasons and Rainbow Room. And, you know, it's nobody can nobody cares. Here's the bottom line. Our generation, we improve the product. The food and all these French restaurants, which in New York dominated the scene, Philadelphia, Le Perrier, George Perrier and Le Becfin, Chicago, Le Bonch. John McCoy and Le Fon. OK, the French dominated everything. And some did a better job than others. We raised the bar, the Danny Mars and the Druna Porence, Stephen Starr, Rich Melman. I mean, we really did. We raised the bar. Now, the only thing is don't charge too much because I see it happening. Like roast beef, a slab of roast beef is one hundred twenty five dollars. And it's a slab of roast beef. You know, rotisserie chicken. You can get a good one at Costco or someplace else for nine ninety nine. But at Danielle, a half chicken. Is like fifty bucks. So that means chickens, one hundred dollars or maybe more even some places. So cost to me is very important. The one thing I realized is only one person in the restaurant at the table of the of the reservation pays the check. So that's the only person feeling the pain of having to pay the check. The rest of the people they order, you know, whatever it is. So, you know, you see the prices have creeped up, creeped up, creeped up, tasting menus, disaster. You know, who wants to sit there for three hours and have only courses? Joe, I hope you're not doing this, but I know. We're tired of being guinea pigs. Just can't imagine this. Give me one nice bowl of food with nice portion size and hot and piping. But, you know, it's a big fishbowl. Everyone's everyone's capable of doing their own thing. And they are, you know, so and I respect everybody. You know, I hate it when, you know, I know Adrian, you know, Eric Repair and, you know, so Eric Repair, you know, he stepped into a very, very, very difficult situation. I was, I was there. I saw what Jabir LaCos did. Oh, wow. I saw that whole beginning and Eric Repair came out of the Jean-Louis Paladins school. Yep. And, you know, but the greatest thing about Eric Repair is his character and the way he treats people. And that's why that restaurant deserves everything. It's not that he can saute poach or bake a piece of fish better than everyone else, although he might be able to do that. That's fine. It's the character, his character, evidence itself in the food. Even Anthony Bourdain was a terrible, terrible chef, great writer, unbelievable, you know, show, no reservations on everything else. But he was a terrible cook. Even he became friendly with Eric because of Eric's character. Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were great friends. But when I sat down with Eric, with Adrian, just sitting in his library with him, it was like just his presence. You're like, man, it was just like, you nailed it. It's character. You're just like, it's you when you sit by someone and you're like, this is a person who is a leader because people want to follow him. It's not because of any title. It's not whoever he is, but it's like, this is a person who you would just follow if you met him on a bus because it's like the confidence. It's the poise. It's the way he speaks to you. If I met you on a random street and you were like, we're going this way. I'm like, yeah, I'm going with this too. This is this is my guy now. You know, when I was younger, I opened Montreux when I was 29 years old. I would do a lot of charity work and it was very novel at that time to travel to another city you would be invited. Now today it's, oh my God, collaborative meal. It's like it's never been thought of. We did this in the 80s, but the real reason I did it, even though I should have done it just for the charity of it, was I wanted to see these celebrated chefs out of their own element and what their ideas were and interact with them and meet them and talk with them. And it was so important to me because I would meet some of these people who had unbelievable, unbelievable reputations. And their item for the dinner or for the tasting around whatever was illogical. And it showed to me like who I wanted to work with and who I didn't. More about who I did. And I'm talking about dozens. So I, you know, I myself was tapped to do a lot of charity and bring in chefs. I brought in 18 chefs every year to a charity we did in Jackson Hall. And there's always one or two that is a total pain in the ass. And now it's just like what you might have said a moment ago, which is, you know, because I had set the tone and bringing these people in. That was extraordinarily important because I was able first hand, see how talented or not the people who had gotten all these incredible reputations were from Chicago, from California, you know, and some people live up to the hype and some people just don't. Yeah. You know, it's just, but you file that away. You don't have to be nasty about it. You just, you know, but. No, even today. It's a note. What? But even today, Mark Vettri, every year does Alex's lemonade stand in Philadelphia. He gets like 50 of the best chefs on the planet. And it's such a great event. And it's like you go around and you sing a lot of everybody. And, and, you know, everyone shows up for fun. And then they invited me this year to California. We're the same event, Suzanne, going and California. Same kind of thing, Nancy Silverton. Same thing. And that's the community. The chef and restaurateur, the restaurant community at its best when we all get together for charity, raise a little bit of money, but we get to know each other as well. Yeah. Look each other. That's the bottom line. Let's help each other as much as we can. I will say what am I, what I think about doing those events. I do this one in Florida every year. And it's the same catering company that's been put in an on for 25 years. So it's the same servers that do an event. So they have a different chef every year. And I always like talking to them about like what chefs they've worked with in the past, because they always have the best insight. And they always have that one where they're like, Oh man, yeah, we had him the one year. He's a real son of a bitch or whatever. And it's, you know, and it's like you said, it's always interesting here. Like who lives up to the hype. And you're like, Oh man, did you put them cooking in somebody's house for 35 people? And it's like, it's a little, you know what I mean? Things get a little, uh, get a little depressed. And you know, how they respond to it. You know, cause I'm always like, Oh, we're just going in. We're going to have a good time. When you go to those events, you're right. Like people freak out because you're in a new environment. The fryer might not get as hot or the ovens might be on the fritz or just different things. And it's just how you handle them. There's no problem that we can't find a solution to it. It might take a little longer to find the work around. But at the end of the day, like it's going to be fine. But I'll tell you, I'll tell you some chefs don't know how to play in a way game. They got no way game. And it's a different skill set. I was like, we are one of the agent. Like, there's a solution to a problem. That was, I did an event in, uh, Florida once where they ran out of lobster. And it was, oh, that's a problem that, yeah. No, but I mean, it was like, you know, like you could see about, you could see it happen and just, well, they had no system where, you know, when the waiters came up, they let the waiters, you know, order verbally. And it was a disaster, but I worked on cruise ships with the same thing. It was, you know, I, I've been around the block. Um, that doesn't mean a thing other than I, I, I've been able to see the good, the bad, the ugly and being able to at least prepare, you know, for the worst and hope for the best. That's, yeah. That's what the way game I'd never used that. That's a great love. I love that's all. We are, we are a strong away team. We pack out well. We roll it anywhere well, but I've, I've met some chefs who I think are phenomenal chefs that I've watched them play the way game, but I'm like, you're a dome team. You should stay inside. Drew, what's to you is harder. And I know we're coming to the end of our time, but what's harder? Is it harder to start something great or is it harder to know when to walk away? I think it's harder to know when to walk away. I never had a bad idea for a restaurant. But to walk away, I'll give you an example. Rubicon, I love being in San Francisco. We absolutely adored it. And then I opened a second restaurant in Sonoma called Freestyle. Very good chef. Steve, did you partner with Francis Ford Coppola on both of those restaurants? Okay. Not both, not freestyle, but Francis Rubicon is his winery. So California is like, you know, I love California, but it's a communist country. I mean, you cannot make a buck there. So I ran that too long. I lost my share there, but I met Stuart Biosas, the most successful San Francisco chef today. Of course, Tracy went to work for Pat Colletto after we had gotten the three stars. That was a bad move, but she's since, you know, we're obviously very friendly. And she regret, I think she regrets that, but it doesn't matter. I mean, people do what they do. But yeah, walking away from a restaurant, you have to know when to hold the wind to fold. That's me. Yeah, that's tough. And I mean, I think it's kind of funny that the title of your book is, you know, not trying to be difficult. Do you see yourself still as difficult or have you just made peace with that's how you are? You know, I didn't name the book. I had a different name for the book. So I'm not difficult. People who know me. I'm difficult because I want to, I want to get my way, but it's not my way or the highway. If somebody has a better way, I'll listen to them. And I'm not trying to be difficult. When I read the audio book, Adrian, and I kind of understood why somebody came up with that title, but years, it's impossible to open 40 restaurants and be difficult. You know, that's a good point. I'm not, I'm not difficult, but, you know, I'm not trying to be, I guess it's a provocative title. I, I went with it, but the movie, if they make a movie about my life, it ain't going to be cool. I'm not trying. It is a provocative title. And I was like, you don't seem unreasonably difficult to me, honestly, like going through the book and everything else. That's also because you're a super difficult person. So I think that comparatively, you know what I mean? It's everybody else seems reasonable. Joseph. See, see what I have to deal with here, Drew. So Drew, we are coming up on time, but I just got to ask, because I'm super, there's parts of this industry that I'm wildly curious about. I had a couple of friends do it, but you, you worked on cruise ships when you were, you were 18. Right. Absolutely. You adored it. I loved it. Oh my God. It's amazing. It's like that is, that is my nightmare. You know what I mean? Like being trapped out of boat like that, doing that. But I mean, it, that had to be insane. Like you got to give me, I need one, if you have one great cruise ship story, I would, I would, I would love that of just like your time at sea of like, you know, a wild experience or something like that's something I would really make my day. Yeah. I'm walking down the carters of Cornell hotel school. There's a posting looking for six waiters experienced in Russian service to sail to the following ports, Leningrad, Oslo, Copenhagen, Stockholm. I had never, ever, ever worked as a waiter. I called the number. I got the job. I get on the MS Vista Fjord in New York, 42 day cruise Baltic sea, Norway, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's 60 waiters, 600 seat dining room, single seating, Austrian kitchen, kitchen is downstairs by escalator. And I'm the escalator escalator. And I'm the only person wearing a light blue shirt. And I had 59 waiters outing me, because they're holding the tray like that. I'm holding the tray like that. So, you know, like everyone knew I was an imposter, but the customers are the okay Phenox from wherever they came from. And they love the fact that I understood them and was able to cater to them and they're European or Scandinavian waiters didn't understand or speak of the English. So I was very successful. But here's the story. So at lunch, we used to have a, what they call, you know, cold buffet each station. And there were like 16 Au De Valier, you know, herrings or curried this or that. And, you know, most of the time you'd give a little tasting, you know, like a variety of things for your guests. So I went to the kitchen, I went to the garbanger and you couldn't put it on a tray. There are too many things. So the cover of the stand is a big piece of plastic. And you bring that down. You put everything on that. And so as I'm going up the escalator, I'm holding the tray like this, you know, under, you know, I felt the escalator getting there. And somehow I go like this, you know, I pulled and I had 16, uh, raviour dishes of food full escalator, you know, the gears and the cracked, oh, it's in everything. But the worst thing was not that, not the cleanup, but having to go back to the garbanger and get 16 new dishes and get yelled at and screamed at and go upstairs and get yelled at and screamed at by the waiters that you were working with. So that was just one little thing. Um, but that, that sort of remains with me. And you can't even escape it. You're trapped on a boat. It's not like, well, I'm not coming back tomorrow. It's like, well, I got 41 more days. I got 41 more days of being the guy who dropped all the dishes. Right. But you work breakfast, lunch and dinner, seven days a week. And for me, it was like a military service. I was visiting all these extraordinary places. And it was just, it was phenomenal. And the food, by the way, was extraordinary. It's just, you know, so I learned so much on those trips. I went back about 15 different times. I went back every Christmas. They had Christmas cruises. I went back almost three years in the summer. And even when I graduated from college, nobody offered me a position. The recruiters that came to Cornell, nobody offered me anything. So I went back on the cruise ships as well. So the cruise ships for me were the real, the proven grounds. Nice. That's awesome. CTO cruise ships aren't so bad after all. Because I remember in culinary school, them talking to us about the cruise lines. And I remember, like, especially those, those ones, like those Norwegian cruise lines, they were like, if you go there, it's like, you know what I mean? They're like, you fly up, you train in Alaska. And then basically, like you don't talk to your family for two months and you just go to Scandinavian countries and like serve pickles. It's not that bad. No, I mean, I was going with 70s. I worked on the ships in the 70s. That's how long ago that was. I love that. So that's why I'm like, it just must have been, why? Because I mean, yeah, like you're just gone. Right. You're just like, I'm going to get on this boat and, you know, like, like a picture, like, you know, you kiss your girlfriend at the port and you're like, I'll see you again one day. You know, I'm off to sea. You know what I mean? Wave the handkerchief. You and Heavy Way leave you in port together. You know, all I'm going to say is I hope my book is nominated for a journalism board. So I'm going to go to Chicago or they asked me to be a presenter after like seven years of dry dock. Because I'm coming to see you. We're either going to go to a cup game. We're going to have something at one of your restaurants in Adrian. We're definitely having lunch at Noble. But if you're in Chicago, you're going to join us as well. Oh, hell yeah. It's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to make a lunch. We got a lot of work. I promise. And I promise the prices are reasonable and, you know, they're nice sized portions to. Yeah. I just want to tell you. I mean, yes, you guys do a great job with this thing. That's why I reached out and I appreciate being up. Oh, thank you so much for joining us. We've been looking forward to this all week. And just the absolute pleasure. That's it for this episode of the chefs cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can find full length video episodes of the show every week. And be sure to follow us at the chefs cut pot on IG for Joe Flam. I'm Adrian Cheatham. And this has been the chefs cut life beyond the past.