Karen Ackunowicz on Boston’s Food Scene, Bib Gourmand, and the Importance of Powerlifting!!

Today on The Chef's Cut, we have a guest who is a true badass. She is a power lifter. She's a former bartender, a social media comedian, and oh yeah, she just happens to be an award winning celebrity chef who is also nicknamed the Queen of Pasta. We're talking about how she got started. And that is Houston's. Houston's. And you were going to say it. I did. I love Houston's. That community means to her. You're making that magical moment. You're making a magical moment in South Boston with a tomorrow card. What makes the perfect lobster roll? Hot buttered lobster, but they put mayo on the bun. Oh, if you haven't figured it out yet, it's chef Karen Akunowitz, the James Beard, best chef winning Michelin Bib Gorman awarded powerlifting powerhouse behind some of Boston's most loved restaurants. But first chef's cut nation, we need 10 seconds of your time. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. Your support is the reason we've grown so quickly and your support will help us keep going. Chef Karen, thank you so much for joining us today. We are so excited to talk with you. Thanks for having me guys. I'm a big fan. We do this segment called fork it or forget it, right? Fork it means you like it. Forget it means you're going to kick it to the curb. We have a special Bostonian edition because you are like the reigning queen of the culinary scene. Oh, that's so nice. Thank you. We wanted to know which one hot buttered lobster roll or chilled mayonnaise salad style lobster roll. I do a lot of opinions about this. I'm going to say hot butter is my go to. I also have a house in Maine. So I'm up in mid-coast Maine a lot as much as we can get up there. I live right by Georgetown lobster, which is like the best place to get lobster. You sit on the dock, you look out where they catch the lobster. But the clam shack in Kennebunk does hot butter and it's not in a like a hot dog, you know, like the hot dog buns that you get lobster rolls. And it's like a round roll and it's hot buttered lobster, but they put mayo on the bun. Oh, it is the fucking shit. It's the ship. Oh my God, that sounds so. My Midwest heart so happy. Yeah, it's really, really, really good. And I love those guys. You can get their lobster rolls on Goldbelly. I send them to my mom sometimes. But so I'm going to say that for me, that is like the best of both worlds. But if it was just hot buttered or cold, I would say hot buttered always. Oh, but that place sounds phenomenal. I got to try that. Yes. Well, speaking of Boston and I guess now Maine, but back to Boston, the culinary scene there has always been pretty awesome, but it's getting a lot more attention in the past few years. And, you know, especially like even Michelin entered the Boston area. But how has the Boston food scene evolved in the time that you've been there? Well, I think that, I mean, I feel like I've been here. I've been here forever. I've been working in restaurants in Boston since I was 21 and I'm 47 now. So it's a long time. Just a couple years. Just, you know, no big deal. Still a spring chicken. You know, I think that there is just an explosion of folks doing great food in a lot of different neighborhoods. I always say Boston's a city of neighborhoods. So my restaurants are in South Boston. South, traditionally very towny, Irish Catholic neighborhood. I mean, when we opened Fox and the Knife, everyone was like, you think people are going to come to your restaurant there? And I was like, yeah, I think that if we have, you know, if we have great food and great hospitality and we're really nice to people, yeah, I do think people are going to come. They were like, that's not what they want in that neighborhood. But here's the thing about it. It is a neighborhood. People live there. And so the neighborhood has always been, you know, amazing to us and we've done okay for ourselves there. So I think that there's a lot of neighborhoods that had amazing food that you could go to, but there are chefs that are now not just operating in Back Bay, downtown Boston, the South End, which are like, you know, more affluent neighborhoods were kind of spreading out into all the corners of the city. And you know, I think people are making really fun, interesting and personal food. And I do think, I mean, I always say, especially for female chefs in Boston, we've always kind of had the run on that. I mean, I came up in the front of the house before I started cooking and, you know, I had all these amazing female chefs to look up to, Lydia Shire, Joanne Chang, Anna Sartoon, Barbo Lynch, who were owning and operating their own restaurant. So it, if you see it, you believe that you can be it. Like you think like that's an attainable. Look at all these women owning and running their own restaurants. So that's something that I can do as well. But I think that, you know, our food scene is, I think it's becoming a lot more fun. And I think that's really cool. Yeah, I was thinking about that before the call. I'm like, man, Boston has been like the female chef powerhouse, like for a long time. Like for as long as I've cooked, you know, as long as I've known about it, it's been like, that's been like the spot. And it's so like, you know, like odd. It's like, you know, it'd be like that. That's the helm of it. And I mean, Chicago, we have incredible ones. New York, obviously too. But like Boston has been, you know, to be in a powerhouse like forever. But yeah, I mean, you go back to, I mean, Boston's, we're kind of never at the forefront of, I wouldn't say we're often at the forefront of anything. But that's something that's just kind of always been the case here. And you know, there was a restaurant called McKayla's that a lot of female chefs worked at and branched out from there. And yeah, I mean, it's always just been something that's, that's not only been prevalent, but has been very visible in Boston. And I feel pretty lucky for that. A lot of cities like you would hear about a bunch of, you know, men, a bunch of male chefs. And then there'd be like one woman chef who's got a restaurant here, you know, but in Boston, it was always like the women were the headliners there. And that is really cool. I've always wanted to spend a little more time in Boston to get to know the scene a bit. And I feel like the difference is there. You have a bunch of female chefs who worked for female chefs because there was something there where it's like, I worked for Steph here. But like Steph didn't work for any female chefs because there just weren't that many. You know, I mean, there were a couple and then, you know, she became, you know, who she is. And now, you know, I mean, a million people have worked for Steph. Work for her. Because she has, you know, 11 restaurants. 97 restaurants. And so it's like, you know, everyone has worked for Steph if you've worked in Chicago, basically at this point. So it's like, I felt like she kind of, you know, rejuvenated that scene in Chicago and brought it to another level. But I felt like Boston was always kind of a standard in that really and truly in the years past. But I also think like the interesting thing is like all three of us have all worked for on the house. We all started in front of the house, which I think is really interesting. And, you know, I know for me, it gives me such a different viewpoint of it. And I also think cooking Italian does too. But it's like, I feel like it gives you a more distinct thing of, and, you know, one of the things you said about opening a restaurant in Southie, like, if we're really nice to people, you know, just like, how did that front of the house shape like how you open a restaurant, how you run a restaurant and like that focus on hospitality. Do you feel like you're more dialed into that? I think for sure. It's always been something that's super on the top of my list. I know I would say it's, of course, the food is first, but our hospitality is right there. And it's really specific. I have a really specific and clear point of view of what I want our hospitality to be and what the expectations are, especially at Fox and the Knife. Our kitchen is very small and it's in the middle of the restaurant. So from the past, I could see every table, but one, there's one that's like in the back corner that I can't see that I have to walk around and the kitchen is really this big. So I have to walk around to a deposit and then I have to go like this and look to be able to to see that to see that one table. But I can see everything so I can see what's going on. I can hear what everybody's saying. And if I hear something that I'm like, oh, that doesn't resonate, I'm going to call it out right away. And I tell people that I was interviewing a floor manager yesterday. She was asking me some questions and I was like, I worked in the front of the house for a long time. And I have a really specific point of view and what I want that to look like and how I want that to be. And it's the heart of the restaurants. And I'm sure that's annoying. I'm sure that's annoying to the front of the house. No, you know what you're talking about. And I mean, Joe oversold it a little bit. I did not really work front of house. I mean, my mom was front of house. So I kind of learned by like, I was raising a osmosis. Yeah, I was like raised in a non smoking section because you used to be able to smoke indoors. So we would do our homework in the non smoking section. And then I did bartend for a little bit. When I was, you know, you were so far the house. Yeah, I mean, it was more slinging that little shade tree cheat. It was more slinging vodka coax or vodka diet coax like in New York, you know, at 4am. But Karen, you also bartended and there is a chain like chains. You know, we talk a lot of trash about chain restaurants, but there is one chain that gets a lot of respect from chefs and even Danny Meyer gave it a special shout out because they set operations. They do great food and it's consistent from location to location. And that is Houston's Houston's and I did. I love I love Houston's as many of us that worked there were all like, Oh, give me a sea spin. Let me, you know, um, yeah, I worked for Houston's. I was an opening bartender at Houston's when they came to Boston and open a fenial hall. It's very, you know, very touristy area on the, on the freedom trail. And I mean, I've worked in really busy restaurants that we were flat out, like five deep every night when we opened their hospitality, their training. I was not a manager there, but I know about their, their manager training. Just everything is so spot on and their vision of hospitality. It's here. It's like top notch all the time is truly guest first. It's like, what can you do to make that guest experience special? What can you do to make, make people come back? And I think for, you know, for being a chain, I think the, you know, the food is great. I, you were like, do you want to go to Houston's? I would say, yeah, no matter what city I'm in, it's like, it's like, if I don't know where to go and I'm just meeting up with people, I'm like, is there a hillstone or Houston's around? I'm there. And that everything you did, I tell people, you know, when we would work service bar, our service bar was separate from the regular bar. And it was this little box kind of in the dining room by the, by the past, by the line. And I mean, when we trained, they stood behind you with a stopwatch and they timed you, they timed you. You had to pass all of your time tests and then you would get randomly timed, you know, when you worked there, like how long did it take you to make these cocktails? And then they would test them because they, it wasn't only time, they had to be perfect. And you, I mean, you cranked if you were in on dining room bar. Do you remember your times? Like, I still got a two minute routine in me. I wish I did. I wish I did, but I should make something up and just, and just say it. 32 seconds flat. Yeah. We also squeezed, we squeezed juice fresh for, for singular drinks, not like, hey, you know, it's a carafe or a cambrill or whatever it is. It's like, if you were making a gray hound, you were squeezing a grapefruit fresh into the drink. Like the standards, I mean, the standards are very high. And I think it's one of the places that I, and, and I really, I'm a Virgo. And I, I always think restaurants, kitchens, parking, like those things just made sense for me. It was like the, the place that I made sense in the world. Like my first line cooked up, I was like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do because I haven't fit anywhere. I don't make any sense. I don't make any sense anywhere. I'm like such a freaking weirdo. I'm a, you know, square pegging around whole everywhere I go. And it was like finally like, and, and I really felt that way there. So I, I really, as, as I tend to do like kind of glommed onto that, I was like, oh my God, hospital, it's so important. I also worked for Disney World. So not, I didn't know that. Yeah. So not in, not in restaurants. I did college program. So I worked in, and I was one of the opening cast members of animal kingdom. And that also, so not restaurants. I didn't work in food service, but that guest service, hospitality, that you going out of the way to make magical moments was so important. I feel like those are two of the really defining, not kitchens I worked in, but really defining places that I worked that have shaped me to be who I am. Those are really great training grounds too. I mean, those are like the best places to learn that. I think it's so interesting to you, like through our careers, you know, everybody, I think, always assumes like our greatest inspiration, our greatest stuff came at, you know, the best restaurants we worked at, right? When we worked for these incredible chefs, but I think there's so many things when we've talked to chefs, restaurants, or whoever, it's like the stuff they picked up along the way at random places or random people, you know, like for me, it's like working for my best friend, Stan in high school, like how he was at the general manager of a bar in a strip mall in the Southwest suburbs of Chicago, like, influences so much of what I still do today, because it was just like a way of doing things, a way of treating people, a way of how you interacted with the community. So it's like, I always, I love those stories of like, you know, it's like, yeah, you didn't go the Disney route, you know what I mean? You might not be Cinderella now, but you know what I mean? I think you've done very well. You kind of are Cinderella though. That's nice. That's nice. Neighborhood restaurants are the backbone. That's like where my mom worked. Mellow Yellow was a neighborhood restaurant on 53rd Street in Chicago on the South side. It was not winning any Bib Gourmand, sadly, but you did win two Bib Gourmand at both of your restaurants and you just opened a third in the airport in Boston, but explain to people, because we talk about Michelin a bit, but to me, I think Bib Gourmand is more important than Michelin stars sometimes because especially if you're looking at the value that you're bringing to a neighborhood. So just explain a little bit of what a Bib Gourmand is and what it means to you and why that's so important. So Bib Gourmand, you know, I think the easiest way to describe it is it's excellent food at a value, at a price that feels like a value. And I know one of the mystery things about it is that every region or city or state or whatever it is has a different price point. So I have no idea what that looks like for Boston or our city. So I wasn't necessarily like, oh, hey, maybe we'll, we'll, you'd be awarded a Bib Gourmand because I have no sense of that. One of the taglines that I like that's often said is Bib Gourmand restaurants are places that Michelin inspectors would go back to again and again on their days off. And for me, that's just like that hits home. I'm like, wow, like somebody like sees us for what we're really trying to do, which isn't necessarily the case because you're not saying in every interview like, we try, we try hard and it's not, and it's certainly not an inexpensive restaurant. It's, you know, certainly a place people go for special occasions and things like that. But we really do try and keep in, keep that, that neighborhood vibe. So I think that for me, it was, it was more meaningful. Like I, I've said a few times like that for me for both of our restaurants, there are only six restaurants in Boston that received Bib Gourmand designations and we had two of them. Oh wow. Congratulations. That's huge. So it was really, that's like three stars for me. You know, that's how, that's truly how, how I feel and how I felt about it. And it was, it was surprising. I feel like the Bib Gourmands to me are like, it's like saying like, this is where, you know, the Michelin star chefs go eat other days off. Right. Yeah. That's like where we want to go. Right. Like that's always, I wanted to be the restaurants where it's like chefs wanted to eat on their day off. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's what it like feels like for those where it's like, I see that and I was like, yeah, if I had two meals in Boston, they're probably both at your places. You know, like I would do a bag, bag there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then maybe there's just three blocks away from each other. You can walk. Perfect. Lunch and then dinner. Maybe a late night at a peach tree city or something. Perfect. We'll go together. Joe and you have so much in common with the like neighborhood restaurant kind of vibe. You know, his places in Chicago are definitely in the same kind of feel like great hospitality, great food, good value, and the kind of place that you want to go to for all of that, like all those good feels, all that good food. And you also have something else in common. And that's that you both worked for a little bit in Italy. Oh yeah. And so you worked in, was it in Modena? In Modena, in Emilia Romagna. Yeah. That's awesome. How long were you there for? I was there for a little over a year. I think the other interesting part too is like, you know, really your background, it's like, I think, and I'm sure you found this too, so many Italian chefs you meet only ever cooked Italian food, right? Like they stayed in that lane the whole time, but you didn't. And I also didn't, you know what I mean? So it's like, I cooked Korean food for a couple of years. I cooked French food, I cooked Southern food. And I never planned on being like cooking Italian food as like that was going to be my thing, even though I grew up cooking it. Like, you know, it was just like, I was definitely more of like, oh, I'm like, I fell in love with kind of Asian food, working for staff. And I thought I was going that route. And then kind of like came back into it. Did you think like always I'm going to get back to that? Or was it just when you opened your first restaurant, you're like, this makes sense for right now. And this is what I want to do. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a part of me that thought I would get back there. I fell in love. I worked at a restaurant called Via Mata with Michael Schlau's restaurant and Christopher Meyer's restaurant in Boston. And I fell in love with Italian food there because it was, I was very, I'm from New Jersey. I'm very familiar and love Italian American food. I mean, you're like, what's your comfort food? I'm like, give me a chicken parm. You know, chicken parm sandwich. But it was like really an introduction. It was really an introduction for me into regionally specific Italian food. The menus were all in Italian. I remember, so I started working there in the front of the house. I was a bartender there while I went to culinary school. And I remember I had to like pass my menu test and I was going home and I had to look up the, all of the words. I was like, melanzana, what the fuck is that? And, and really studying and kind of being very enamored with it. But I did do a lot of other things. And I remember I went to work for Anna Sortun who owns Oliana, who's been open 20 years in Boston, modern Middle Eastern food. And just one of the most, you know, outstanding restaurants in our city. And I remember telling her, I was applying for a sous chef job and I had just come home from Italy. And I remember telling her, I like, I don't have experience with, I mean, I eat Middle Eastern food, but I don't have experience with it. And she was like, do you know how to cook? And I was like, well, I try, I try, I do try. Yeah. Do you know how to saute? Do you know how to braise? Do you know how to roast? Do you know how to like, do you know how to do cook? She's like, okay, well, the rest of it is just learning different spices and different seasonings and like understanding the culture and cuisine. She's like, you can like read a book, right? And, and I was like, yeah, I can. Yes, chef. I've read several. I've read several. Yes, chef. Yes, chef. Whole hundred games, show you, knock that out. And I was like, okay, but that conversation with her, and she's, she's a badass. That conversation with her, I have used that so many times in my life when I've been in a situation where I'm like, oh, I don't know if I know how to do this. And I'm like, okay, well, I know how to cook. I mean, it was very similar when I went to Myers and Chang, which is where I won my James Beard award with a Modern Asian Restaurant, Chinese, Taiwanese, Southeast Asian. And I remember I had taken a year off of working in restaurants. And somebody Christopher Myers that I had worked for called me. I was like, I think it's really nice that you're saving the world. But I think it's time for you to come out of retirement and go back to restaurants. And I was like, oh, I don't know. He was like, well, we want you to come, come be the chef at Myers and Chang. And I was like, Christopher, I don't cook Asian food. And he was like, you eat here all the time. And I was like, that is true. And you know how to cook. And you know how, right. And then my head, it's like, well, you know how to cook, right? And I ended up, ended up being there for seven years. And I think that, and Joe, I don't know if you feel the same way, but that gives you, it's like looking at food a little bit through a kaleidoscope, right? It gives you just like a different perspective, different, like flavor profiles that you're familiar with and you understand. And I think in a lot of ways, and often it's not on the menu, but in a lot of ways, there's, you know, that influence in the cooking at Fox and Life and at Bar-Wolpe. People used to eat our, when we first opened, we had like a trophy with pesto. And I'd be like, this, like, what is this taste like? Well, and it was because there was like lemongrass and lime leaf in it. And we didn't put it on the menu, lemongrass and life. Right. Cause I was, I'm always very like, I don't want people to think it's fusions. Yeah. Yeah, you don't always have to call it out. Right. Or like call it out. It's just, you know, it's like pistachio pesto. One of the few F words you're not allowed to use in a kitchen. Like fusion. But, you know, we do it because it makes sense. Where our spaghetti ala vongole at Fox we pick it up in Dashi. And it's not because, and we don't say Dashi on the menu, but it's just like, why wouldn't you? That makes so much sense. Right. I ran an octopus dish at Spiaggia when I was first there. And it was, it was a red wine braised octopus, which is very classic Italian. But I braised it in Dashi at Red Wine. And I just, you know what I mean? Didn't mention that part. And Tony was like, this is so good. Yeah, thanks. You know, but it's like, I had the same conversation when I sat down with him to interview to be a sous chef. He was like, you've never worked at an Italian restaurant. Now you want to be the sous chef of a Michelin star Italian restaurant. I was like, right, I know. I know how that looks. I was like, but I felt like it also like one, and it was like, I kind of, you know, have the same conversation. I was like, you know, I can cook everyone I've worked for is in your cell phone, you can text them, like they're all in this city. And I go, I'll figure it out. But it forced me to get really good at like researching. It forced me to get really good at like how I created because it like, it made me read even more, consume it even more and like, learn how to digest what I consume a little bit more. You know what I mean? And so I felt like that gave me a lot of perspective, but all those things from there, like, yeah, I felt like I was just looking at things different. And it wasn't always just like, throwing those ingredients in, but still how we cook now where it's like, I think some of those, like for me that like, you know, created an influence for me is like that, that like high, high heat of like, cook it, you know, it'd be like fast, hard cooking, which is like, nothing is fast. An Italian cuisine. It's just like, why? It's like, well, you gotta- Nothing in Italy is fast. Right. It's like, what do you mean? What do you mean you have to be somewhere after this? I thought you were coming to lunch. You should have nothing else to do today. But why would you even go to lunch if you had something to do with the next six hours? Joe and I were talking about this yesterday too, when we were talking about like your time and his time in Italy, there is such a difference between types of hospitality, like, you know, French hospitality being more like buttoned up and standoffish and, and hovering and a little more rigid. And I didn't realize this, but he was telling me that like Italian hospitality is more warm and gracious and more like you're welcoming somebody into your home. So is that like, that's the style of service that you have at your restaurants? Yeah, 100%. So I wanted to, I am also not, everyone assumes I'm Italian. I'm not Italian. I'm 50% Polish, English, German, Norwegian. I went when I was very young. I was in college and I traveled. I was in, you know, spring break doing like a European backpack trip with friends of mine. And one of my friends was like, I have family in Italy and we're going to go, we're going to get on a train, we're going to go there and we're going to hang out with them. And I was like, do you know these people? And he's like, no, I've never met them in my life. But like my grandma wrote to them and I was like, okay, sounds cool. I will tell you, I know now where we were. We were in Piedmont. I had no idea at that point in time. I was like, I don't even know where we are. We got off at a train station. These people welcomed us and were hugging all of us. We slept in their house. They showed us around. We stayed there for days. They took us to, they were like, Paolo, you have other family that lives here from like your other side of the family. We're going to go to their house. Like what do you mean? So like 12 of us shop. It's three of us that are traveling together and then all of his family going, just knock on this woman's door. It's just one old lady knock on the door. And they were like, this is Paolo. He's like your great-grandson or something or nephew or, and she was like, everybody come in. She gave us, she gave us cake. She made us coffee. There's a bunch of us. She did not know us. She did not know them. She did not know us and she welcomed and I was like, whoa, I have to understand. I have to live here because I need to understand. I need to understand this. I need to understand not just the food, which is amazing, but the culture and the, the, the hospitality and all of that. I need to understand that. And that for me is one of the, one of the biggest pieces of why I moved there. It's, you know, it's very, it's just, and it's just the way it is. As somebody who's worked in Italian cuisine and had those experiences and brought that back to the U.S., what is something that you obsess over in your restaurants? Does one of those experiences translate to what you as a chef owner obsess over in your restaurant? Everybody has their thing. It's the host stand. It's the lighting. It's obsess over average. Oh, the lighting. Oh, let me tell you, I'm convinced. I mean, I'm like, you have the marks on the thing. I'm like, but this time of year, it has to be, this is me every time, every time I'm there. I'm like, guys, I'm like, God, just a little bit, a little warmer, a little more glowy. This time of year, actually, it just needs to be a little bit up until it gets a little darker. Then we need to move it down. And everyone's like, uh-huh. Yes, chef. That doesn't sound like you're a psycho. They go, is that better? Right. Without touching it. Good. I'm like, no, it needs to be warmer. Right. It's like sit down at a table and pretend you're sitting across from somebody on a date and look at that. Like look at your colleague across the table. Come sit over here. Oh, I'm a big, come sit over here and see how this looks from here. If you're a guest and you're sitting here, come on, come sit with me. And we're looking here. See what you can see in the kitchen? That needs to get wiped down because you could see that. And everyone's like, yeah, this is cool. You know, one of the things that we do a morrow service at Fox and the Knife when we have like an a morrow cart, which it was never supposed to be a cart that you pushed around the restaurant. It is a small restaurant and we have seats packed in. We're always like, well, that's a New York four over there. Like, you know, it's tight. It's small. That's how we run from like day one. New York four, dude. I love that. It is not an expansive. I have heard that expression in a minute. I mean, that's how we opened. And we're like, we're probably going to two top over there, right? Like there was a space that we had server stuff. And I'm like, I think we can put it. That's table 40. That's the Kampare table. We were going to put a table right there. We actually have a table that used to be a DJ booth from like the iteration of like four restaurants ago. And we knocked out the side of it. And I didn't have enough money. I mean, we opened with very like shoestring and then turned half of it into half it's a booth. And then we took one of the tables like we took, you know, took all the F Fn and cut it so you could put it against the wall because if you left it as a four top, it was too long and it gets a chair on the other side. One of my favorite seats in the restaurant, but it didn't even have like a cushion on it when we opened. And that was when Jordanna Rothman came in from Food and Wine the second week we were open. Just the old new space. Just put out a bench. You just said it was just like a bench. It was just like a hard bad news. There was no foot rail yet. And I remember her sitting like she was sitting like this. And I was like, good, this is good. I'm so happy that that's where that's where we we're right. That's where Food and Wine is good. Good. Good. And I'm like, that's Jordanna. And everyone was like, Oh, oh, is it? And I'm like, yeah, perfect. Good. Good. Good. Everything's everything's good. I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. But our Amaro service, I had bought that cart just to like put the Amaro on in the dining room. And we opened in our servers. Just started. We opened with just like such a crack team. It was a lot of people who had been managers that were like, Oh, I wanted to go break from managing, go back to serving. We were very lucky. And they just started like wheeling it around the dining room. And the first time I saw it, I was like, what is she doing? And they were like, Oh, just go up to the table. And so I now have become really obsessive about like, everybody has to use the Amaro cart once a night, because it's it's part of the experience. It doesn't cost us any extra money. Right. We're not sending them anything. We're not comping their drinks. But you're having a real interactive experience with somebody. So it's like, you know, teaching them about whether they're pouring them a flight, pouring them a taste saying, Oh, this is this is really what I like. And and you're having that priceless interaction with people that resonates hospitality. You're making that magical moment. You're making a magical moment in South Boston with an Amaro cart. Oh, where did you make magic when I go to Disney World? Oh, I used to be a cast member. Like, where did you make magic? I love it. I love it. I'm like, you know, I'm going into April. Where did you make magic? Where did you make magic? In true front of house. If somebody asked me that in the middle of my work day, I would be like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I don't have meetings. I don't have meetings today. I don't have meetings today. Because my mom was front of house. She retired. She was with Starbucks on the corporate side for like 20 years, and she retired and got bored. And she lives in Orlando. So now she works part-time for Disney and she makes magic happen for the cruise line. Where is she? Oh, for the cruise line. She greets people. She greets people at the airport and drives them to the cruise ship. And she loves it. She works like three days a week and then plays pickleball four days like for her. And she loves because she's such like a front of house hospitality person. So your mom's just out there getting all the tea too. Oh, she is. She is. 100%. But she's like, the best thing about it is I get to start their experience. They get to be brought in to their vacation. And she's like, I don't care what's going on. I create their experience. I greet them. I make sure that they're like having a good time. And I drop them off with a smile. Like she's so happy to be doing this. And it's like, that is the essence of like front of house. Like that hospitality is, I was like, I don't, I might have a frown. Like I'm not equipped to do that. You would be the worst at that job. That would be horrible. I love it. I love it. And it sets the tone for their entire trip. And it really is. I mean, you leave Disney World, whether it was like when I was working there or when you go there and you just leave and you're like, I don't know why people aren't that nice just like everywhere. I'm not, you know, I'm not really, I'm not really sure. No one said below me when I walked in this store. I walked out and it's me like walking out of like whatever. And I'm like, bye. Thank you. There's zero magic happening to this Best Buy. I just want you all to know that. You're not making magic over here. I didn't buy anything. I didn't buy anything. I didn't buy anything. Taking my HDMI cable and I'm leaving. Zero magic. Thanks for nothing, Steve. We call, we talk a lot about Chow Ono. It's like one of our tenants at the restaurant. It's like big, big hello or big goodbye. So everyone, you know, our whole team, it's like, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. People will be like, I have never been said goodbye to by so many people leaving the restaurant. We're like, Chow Ono. So you're providing that balance. You're providing that, that hospitality for other people. And I firmly believe, and maybe it's because when I left restaurants, I was still in my mid 30s, mid to upper 30s. And I left restaurants. And to me, I was either all in or all out, like my life outside of a restaurant just, it didn't exist. It wasn't a thing. How do you create balance for yourself as somebody with now three restaurants doing television, traveling, doing events? How do you make sure that you have something for yourself to bring back to your guests? I think it's, it's so hard. It's so important. And it's, it's so hard. And I think that, you know, when people talk about balance and because I hear so much from so many people that we interview about worth life balance, like I'm interviewing sous chefs and they're like, worth life balance. And I'm like, I always want to say, babe, this is like not your work life balance time. This is not your time for that. This is your time to, to grind. This is your time to learn. This is your time to like soak it all in. It's the magic and it happened in the, in the 40 hours and your clock in and clock out. The magic is happening in all of the other stuff around it. The experience you're having, the relationship you're having with your sous chef, your chef, your what you're learning, what you're doing and what you're, what you're putting into it. Like you can, I get it. You know, I didn't see my family for holidays for eight years. I didn't, you know, nights, weekends, holidays, but very much the same. I mean, I'm sure both of you, like, yeah, I was obsessed with that. I loved it. And I, I still do. And I think that one of the things that's helpful for me is that I don't look at it. I don't look at anything like work life balance. Like, this is my life and it's just all a part of it. Right. And there's this great, it's Shonda Rimes. It's like this great, this great quote she said, she was giving like a keynote speech at a university. And she was like, people say, oh, you have it all, you do it all, you don't. Here's the thing. If you are winning an Emmy, if I'm winning, winning an Emmy for Grey's Anatomy, I am not at my daughter's school play. And if I'm home and I'm being really present because, my kids have a lot going on or we're going on vacation, I am not as present at work. Right. And you kind of have to get okay with saying, I do as much as I can here, I do as much as I can there. And I go where I needed and I do the best that I can. And I'm giving 100% and it feels like 50%. But it's probably 120% compared to somebody else. Like, I'm sure all three of us, our like, 75% is other people's 125%. Right. We go hard. We go hard. I mean, I just had, I've been told I'm intense. Me too. Weird. Me too. So weird. I just think I'm like, I just care a lot guys. I just care a lot. Yeah, I'm just passionate. That's all. And that's, I'm trying to make magic right now. These are core memories. But I actually don't think that balance is truly possible in that way. I personally don't. And I never achieved it when I was in restaurants. I was either there from 5am to 12am every day or like, I don't know. I just, I don't think balance is possible. I think like, balance, like people don't realize that I think you said it beautifully, Karen. It's like balance is sacrifice on one end or the other. Right. You either sacrificing work or you're sacrificing home to figure out. And I think like for us, especially like chefs, parents doing all these things we do, you know, TV, all that, like there's no balance. There's just like, I think like for me now it's like, I just, it's just trying to be present and wherever I am, wherever I am, it's like, there's never going to be an even split. It's impossible. But you know, I shoot for flexibility and I shoot like, if I'm at work, I'm all in on that right now. I'm trying to be totally present that, you know, I'm with my team doing that when I'm at home, I'm trying to be totally present there. And I think like, that's the best you can do. But it's like, because you know, I think you're talking to young sous chefs itself or like, I want this balance. It's like, all right, but you're sacrificing growth for that balance right now. And if you're okay with slower growth, you can have more balance, but it's just going to take you more time. It's just going to be longer. We didn't have that option coming up. We were all, we were all gas, no brakes. There were also no cell phones in kitchen. So when I was at work, nobody could get a hold of me. I remember my mom trying to would try and be like, Oh, I've been calling you for weeks. And me being like, I don't know what to like, what do you think? I don't know what to tell you. In the case of a real family emergency, like, I knew the shit hit the fan, like something went on in my family because they called the La Bernardin reservation line and got transferred to the kitchen. And then the CDC was like, AC, you have a call. I was like, Oh, this must be bad because nobody can get get in touch with you when you're at a restaurant. Like, you know, and that's, I don't know. It's, I think it's a beautiful thing to be fully present and be fully in it. And you grow so much faster. See, see, my mom was CPV. So she just popped in. She just, she popped in on my friends too. I'd hear, I'd see somebody to be like, I saw your mom. I'm like, where? She's like, they just came into the restaurant. She just came in. She came in. That's awesome. Good for her. Just popped in. They just walked in. Everybody was like, what's going on? They'd be like, oh, it's Janice. Yeah. But Adrian, to your point, you know, I do think there, there is a place that you get to where it's like, I always describe it as you have to put soup back in your own pot. Like, we're all this soup pot. And if we're just ladling out to everybody, right, the bottom is just going to burn. So if we're not doing things for yourself at some point in finding that, making that time, and it's, it's really hard to make that time. I, you know, we talked a little bit about this before. I'm a power lifter. It's something that I did a while ago. I never competed and came back to two years ago and started, I started competing last year. And I have to like carve out, I have two days that I work with my coach, and then I try and get to the gym in that flexible sense, like when I can, like yesterday, I was like, I have an hour, I have an hour and a half. I'm going to run to the gym before I go home. And I try and get like one or two more days in. But those two days, I have to protect like it is my child. Because everybody, everyone's like, Oh, you can do that, or you can move that. It's just the gym, you can move it. And I have to, it is one of the hardest things for me is, is like protecting that time and being like, I cannot, I cannot cancel the gym. I can't, I have to go. I have to, one, it keeps me my brain right. So I don't kill anybody. But also, if I, it'll be the thing that goes every time. So for the last two years, I've been really intense about, you really have to, it's not just like, you know what girls, make time for yourself. You need, you need to have some self care. It's like, when you carve out those times, like, you have to really protect them. Yeah, it's great for your mental health. It's great for your physical health. But it is, it is my hobby. It's something that brings me immense amount of joy, truly. And I have never had that before in my life. So I also feel like I have to protect that as well. Because otherwise, it's like, you need to, to find, I think, right, I'm not that good at it. But you do have to find those small other things that, that bring you joy that are not job related, because it's so easy to tie everything about our, I won't speak for anyone else, but like, very easy for me to tie myself forth to my job. And for that to be the only thing that I am. And I have lived my life that way. That's it. I'm a chef. That's it. That's it. Before we let you go, we have a little bit of a section we call turn and burn. And this is kind of like quick, this or that. Okay. So this will be really fast. And then we're going to ask you for your walk in confession. Okay. So for turn and burn. This is a kind of Boston edition fried clams, bellies or strips? Strips. Ooh, okay. Oysters, well fleets or ducks very ducks. Very. Ooh, nice. Clam chowder. Are you thick and creamy or brothy and briny? Brothy and briny. Yeah. And cannoli, pre filled or filled to order? Oh, filled to order. That's kind of a gimme. I'm not going to be like, no, don't give me that. Don't give me that cannoli. No, don't give me one that you filled 12 hours ago. I don't, I won't don't want it. But it's like, you know, the inside starts to get, starts to get soft. Yeah. And some people, I don't like the joy. You got to eat the two ends first and then you leave the middle. And then you leave the middle because and it ends with the chocolate chips anyway. So Oh, nice. So our last part of the show Karen is called walking confessions. And this is where we know the Karen Akuna with today who has two Michelin Bibb Gourmands and a new restaurant in the airport. But there was a Karen before all this and cookbook author and James Beard award winner and mother. Yes. Guys. There was an absolutely power lifter. Do it. Yes. Who was the Karen before all of the accolades? What was a funny story or an experience that you remember and you want to share with us as your walk in confession? I mean, I feel like it could be like yesterday. I feel that I feel that so, so deeply in my soul. I sometimes I'm just like, well, just make it, make it the same mistakes. No, this is a, I don't know if I know, know if this is going to count as a walking convention, but my first shift ever, my first shift ever as a line cook, I worked at a very, very small restaurant in my neighborhood of Jamaica Plain in Boston. I still live very close to there. It's an amazing neighborhood. And it was a restaurant called 10 Tables. Guess why there was only 10 tables. And I like loved like as a and like as a as a guest, I had, I really loved that restaurant. It felt very intimate and small and special. And that's where when my very first job as a line cook and my, so there would just be two of us on the line. There was like the chef worked the hot side and like I was supposed to work the cold side. I really had no idea. I mean, I had never worked in kitchen before. I will say, I do think there's a bartender to chef or cook pipeline, right? Like you're like, you're mes emplash, you know how to move, you know, like you can so, so I think that's helpful. But the, the chef like had food poisoning or stomach fires or something. So I like walking from my for, I had done a stash and at that stash, the guy working the cold station didn't show up. So I like worked the cold station. It wasn't, it wasn't super complicated, but they were like, you're hired. And now I'm like, yeah, you hired me because you needed somebody to work the next day. I go in the next day and she's in the bathroom downstairs, like throwing up like she's on the floor and she was tough. She was a tough bitch. And knowing her like now, as long as I knew her for like the fact that she was like sick and couldn't come out of the bathroom, she must have been dying. And I remember sitting on the floor outside of the bathroom and I was like talking to her through the crack in the bottom. And I was like, so I saw the food yesterday that I have the menu and the owner said to me, so if I don't take any walk-ins, do you think you would just cook the reservations that are coming in? And I, you know, I probably should have just said no, but I was very like, Frodo Baggins. I do not know the way. I do not, I will do try it, but I do not know the way. So I was like talking to her and like trying to write down. I remember there was like, there was a trout with bourbon and fresh peas and mint. I'll never forget it. There was like a beet souffle on the menu. I had to like make, you know, very new Americans. Kid, first off. Outside the bathroom like, mom? Like, what do I, how do I do it? And so I did cook service then. And I think, you know, the piece of it is like, you don't really know how to cook, right? Like you, you know, you go into a culinary school, but you don't really know how to cook. You never worked in this kitchen before. You don't have any moves. You are not a line cook. You do not have moves. You cannot do more than one thing at a time. I could not do more than one thing. And I'm like, I will put this thing in the pan. You don't know how to put the thing in the pan. Start the other burner. Close the oven door with your foot. Turn around. Put the, like you have no moves. So I just like very slowly cooked for, I don't know, did we do two turns? It was the most stressful night of my life. I'm sure it was terrible. I think the owner was just giving away free drinks to everybody all night. And I would, and I just would be like, here's the, here's the one, the like shaking, like here's the, the one thing that I made. Here's the salad. And, and I mean, we got through the night, but what a, what a tiny little hellscape, hellscape that was. Put up one dish at a time. Literally chill like one dish at a time. I'm like, well, here's the, the one dish. I know there's a five top. I remember there was a five top. There was a five top in the window. And I remember just being like, here's your one dish at it at a time and just trying to like, and not, not knowing at all what I was doing. And that was day one. And I guess I was like, this seems like something I should do for my entire life guys. I love it. I'm a chef now. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. After that, it's all uphill, right? It's all uphill. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, so that, thank God I, I didn't have a little, I think it's like, thank God I didn't have a little more experience because the blank slate of how little I knew, I think if I knew a little more, I had a few shifts under my belt, I would have been like, Oh hell no, I can't. Right. I know that I can do that. You didn't even know enough to know to be scared. Oh, I knew to be scared. I was like, can you, can you imagine like as a chef now being the chef in that position though? You were like, I physically can't get off the floor. And now I just have this new cook out there who's like, so I'm just going to cook service. Okay. All right. I'll see you later. You're like, we'd be handing out gift cards. We'd be sending everybody down. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. All reservation. Come back next week. I'll just go do it myself. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't pour that. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I don't know why anyone thought that that was a good idea. Oh, bringing up dishes together, the timing, like how long it takes to work. Like that's like one of the things when people always ask, like what's the difference between like a home cook and a restaurant cook? They understand timing. You don't timing. And it's like, and there's so exponentially better at it than like a home cook could ever be because it's so hard to learn and you need so many reps. And it's like, but it's everything. It's everything. But don't you feel that makes you better at everything in life? Don't you think you're like inherently just better at doing things than everybody else because you are efficient and can multitask and do a lot of things at one time? I think that way all the time. Also, I'm like, we're going at a pace. Whatever we're doing, there's a pace. There's a pace. Come on, let's emergency. A sense of urgency. Let's go. We're doing all of these things. I think, you know, my kid is three and a half and I'm an older parent and like, what the hell is going on? I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't have a lot of experience with kids. I wasn't like a kid person like, I love kids. You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I really feel like my only strength in going into parenthood was that I was the chef. And so I could like do a lot of stuff and I could like get a lot of stuff done. I was very efficient at doing things. I think that was my real only strength, you know, going into parenthood. Right. I'm just like breakfast, lunch, let's go. School starts at 8.05, not 8.06. That's my prepless. I got it. Let's go. Yes. Yes, prepless. Let's go. This is how we do it. Let's make a plan. I said to my kid all the time. I'm like, let's make a plan. And she's like, are we going to make a plan? And I'm like, yeah, we're going to make a plan. This is how we're going to do it. This is what we're going to do. Come on. Can I make a plan? And I'm like, yeah, what do you want to do? Play. Right. Well, that's not a plan. That is. It's not a plan, Rogue. Thank you so much, chef. It has been such a blast hanging out with you today. Yeah, those were so fun. Thank you guys. Thank you so much for having me. Big fan. That is it for this episode of the chef's cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can find full length videos of every episode and be sure to follow us at the chefs cut pod on IG for Joe flam. I'm Adrienne Cheetham. And this has been the chefs cut life beyond the past.