#396: From Trauma to Transcendence: Alpha Training, Elite Creativity Gains, and Reversing Aging — With Dr. James Hardt

Welcome to Longevity. I'm your host, Natalie Knidham. I'm a nutritionist, a human potential and epigenetic coach, and I created this podcast to bring you the latest ways to take control of your health and longevity. We cover it all, from new technology and ancestral health practices to personalized interventions and a very special interest of mine, peptides and bioregulators. Enjoy the show. Hey, folks, welcome back. I'm Natalie Knidham, your host. Today's guest, Dr. James Hart, has spent more than four decades mapping how brainwaves shape our emotions, identity and performance. He is the founder of Biotcybernaut, the intensive neurofeedback program often compared to having your own personal Zen master. I went through his program for a full week last November. It was absolutely transformative. Now, in this episode, we explore how alpha brainwaves help clear emotional trauma, boost creativity, IQ and EQ, and even influence longevity. James breaks down what really happens in the chamber, why trauma blocks so much of our potential, and how targeted neurofeedback can rewire the patterns running your life. It's deep, practical, and surprisingly transformative. Now, you guys, if you've been listening to this podcast, you might know, but for anybody new that I've created an amazing holiday gift guide for listeners so that you can get the best holiday deals on biohacking tools, supplements and more. So if you're still shopping, you're going to want to check this out. There are gifts in different price ranges. And once a year price drops on your dream biohacks. So to get your hands on the gift guide, go to natnidham.com forward slash gift guide for my list of holiday deals and gift ideas. Every winter, I tell myself, this will be the year I don't get knocked down by every cold that floats through the air. And I've learned my lesson. But here's the thing. Many people wait until we're already sick to do something about it. 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You do everything right, dim the lights, no screens, chamomile tea, but your brain is still wired. And this is where tranc dart comes in a multi pathway sleep support from wizard sciences. This is not a knockout pill. It's a gentle nudge toward that wind down zone. I take it about 30 minutes before bed. And it actually helps my body and my brain sink up for sleep. It's layered support, glycine to help cool your body temperature, GABA to press the brain's brake pedal, the larion root for that herbal calm and five HTTP to help serotonin flow into melatonin. Even your gut gets some love with inulin and blue spirulina. If your brain's been ignoring bedtime lately, check out tranc dart at wizard sciences.com and use code NAT15 for 15% off. I've been using it for a few nights and I am loving it. Dr. James Hart, I finally get to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to share this information with us. I'm so happy to join you, Natalie. Yes, well, it's a pleasure. So let's just dive into the meat of this. You have spent decades pioneering neurofeedback as a tool for improving mental and physical health. Can you take us back to the moment when you realize that the brain was the key to unlocking human potential? People might say, of course, it's the brain, but what is it about the brain that that we need to do to unlock human potential? Well, that's a wonderful question. And I have to give you a discursive answer. For example, in Buddhism, there are over 150 attainment levels, which are major states of consciousness. Some are big steps and some are smaller steps. And so you're asking me, you know, what was the moment? And I have to say that it's been a continuing series of evolutions and understanding to come to the point now where I can say, like teenagers will say mutant ninja turtles rule, or I say brainwaves rule. Okay. Now, the scientific way to say that is any experience that you have as a living human being, you can have that experience only when you have the appropriate underlying pattern of brainwaves. And when you change your brainwaves, by any means, I mean, used to be drug, sex and rock and roll, right? That was how you change your brainwaves or meditation or brainwave feedback. However you change your brainwaves, you change your experiences. You change your brainwaves enough, and you change your identity. So a high anxiety neurotic becomes a perfectly normal person. A person lost in apathy becomes a dynamic go getter by changing their brainwaves. And so brainwaves rule. And it's been and so is an unfolding story. I'm continuing to learn more about how this works. But was there a point? Was there any eureka moment when you said neurofeedback? This is the way we're going to get there. Well, I can share your eureka moments along the way. Okay, perfect. I'll settle for a few. The way it started was I was a senior at Carnegie Institute of Technology, majoring in physics. It was a fall semester of my senior year. And I came out to the student union. There was a big hand painted sign where every letter was a slightly different color. And it said, Dr. Joe Camilla, we'll talk on brainwaves and consciousness. And it gave a time that was, oh, that's just 10 minutes away. Margaret Morrison College, right across the tennis courts. I didn't have a course that hour. And so I went. And, you know, it's mostly painting design students. The ones who made the science, Joe was visiting Joe Camilla was visiting their teacher. And they didn't understand. They were questions like about alpha rays and things like that. They didn't know alpha brainwaves from alpha particles. And but he and I what I realized was because I had a friend at Duquesne University where they were studying phenomenology or the science of consciousness. And I was reading Father Pierre Théardin's book, The Phenomenon of Man. And it was all wonderful stuff. But how do you measure it? All of a sudden, here was a way to measure it. Brainwaves were related to meditation. Somati and Satori had high alpha, beginning meditators often had very little alpha. So I was very excited. That was kind of a breakthrough. So every spare hour of that senior year, I spent the library reading the long history of brainwaves. And in the spring, when I graduated, I jumped on my Triumph motorcycle, rode up into Canada, across the continent and down I5, got off at San Francisco, and showed up at Joe Camilla's lab. He and I had been riding together. And I volunteered as a research subject, very primitive. One electrode, middle of the back of the head, one speaker, one score, controlled by this gigantic digital equipment core, many computer that filled an entire room. And it was the most fascinating thing I'd ever done in my life. I went back the next day for more and the next day for more. And on the fourth day, I went back, but they weren't doing any studies. But I'd gotten to know Dr. Camilla's girlfriend, Joanne Gardner, and went to her office with Joanne. Would you please take me downstairs, put a couple of electrodes on me, put me in the chamber so I can play? Oh, yeah, sure. So she did. And she went upstairs after turning on the equipment, got involved in her work, and forgot it was there. Later, lunchtime came, and she went out to lunch with nine other members of the lab for a 12-course Chinese lunch. And in Course 11, she goes, oh my God! And somebody's in the chamber, and so they all raced out of the restaurant, rode across town, ran up to the building, ripped open the door. And I was like three feet off the ground for three days when I walked. My feet didn't touch the ground. I'd had an out-of-body experience, eagerness integration. I was contacting discorporeate beings flying around the universe. And this was a lot for I had been raised as a Protestant fundamentalist, and I was a physics major. What's all this like out-of-body stuff? And I, so I realized that somehow this is going to be a part of my life. So summer's over, I ride back across the country, show up at Carnegie Mellon, and they gave me a full scholarship, $2,200 a month to live on, and I'm in a PhD program for psychology because I figure I need to get somebody to stamp my rational mind with a seal of approval because I was going to be dealing with weird stuff. And so as soon as I registered, I go, and all I wanted to do is tell people about this phenomenal experience. And so a ride up above campus in a big home built by the robber barons of the, you know, that era of Pittsburgh, lived one of the professors from Duquesne, Ralfa and Eckersburg. He'd been a grad student under Timothy Leary at Harvard. He'd taken tons of LSD. He was like a very turned on guy and I go, if anybody knows what happened to me, it'll be Ralf. I'm going to go see Ralf. So I walk in and he looks at me and he's like shocked and he goes, sit down, and he takes his arm, he sweeps everything off his desk. He goes, what has happened to you? And so I start talking, telling him about this. Midway through a three hour disclosure, his neighbor lady comes in, listens attentively, leaves, comes back, brings a book, sets it down to my side. It was the autobiography of a yogi. Two weeks earlier, I would have dismissed it. It became a roadmap of much of my spiritual journey. And at the end of the talk, Ralf folded his hands and he said, we can do this here. And in that instant, this is a defining moment. In that instant, I was downloaded, not with a job, not with a career, not with a profession, but with a vocation. Because there's a soundproof chamber in the psych department I've just registered. There's a big pile of junkie old electronic equipment. And with my physics knowledge, I could cobble together a brainwave training center. And so I did. And then I started training, doing research. I did 20 college students. It was my first study, 10 high anxiety, 10 low anxiety. So that was another defining moment. Ralf said, we can do that here. Love it. Love it. That's a great answer. I want to get back to the nuts and bolts of neurofeedback in a minute. But when you first introduced neurofeedback as more of a mainstream tool, what was the biggest pushback that you got? And how did you overcome it? There was obstacles right from the beginning. My psych department had behaviorists. They were rat runners. They didn't believe in experience. They thought it was an epiphenomenon. The only thing that's real is behavior. And so they, I wanted to do this study, brainwave. So they referred me to Dr. Terence W. Barrett, who is a postdoc. He's a one year, first year out of grad school. And he had the electrophysiological lab and they said, you need to talk to him to get permission to use equipment. So I go in and I babble a sapling about brainwaves and consciousness and yogis and Satori and Samadhi. And he just listened. Two hours later, I get a letter in my mailbox, copies to the chairman, permission to use the electrophysiological laboratory equipment denied. Nobody who's interested in consciousness could possibly be serious about getting a PhD in psychology. But if you will submit yourself to me, I will design a program that will lead to a PhD in physiological psychology. Sincerely, Terence W. Barrett. That's a little bit of a pushback. Well, fortunately, the chairman was on sabbatical and the acting chairman was Dr. Richard Hayes, who is a Piagetian psychologist studying development of intelligence in children. And so he looked at it, he took the letter to him, he rolled his eyes, and permission was suddenly granted. Next year, Terence was not there, his contract was canceled. But that earned the enmity of the other tenured physiological psychology professors. And so one of the breakthroughs I had was, because I didn't believe experience was measurable, you know what a visual after image is, right? If you stare at the sun for a moment, close your eyes, you'll see bright light that will fade over time. Well, it turns out that if you look at a bright light, for real, your alpha waves drop. Measurable, it's science. And so I found a study where people were measuring brain waves and looking at back visual after images, closing their eyes, and when they reported that the after image faded, which is a purely subjective experience, the alpha waves increased. And so it's gotcha, okay, we can measure experience. And so, I mean, there was lots of pushback. Of course, this would be a good time to give the audience a little bit of a few definitions so that as we continue on this conversation, they're kind of anchored in some terminology. And I think maybe the first thing, there will be lots of people who know the answer to this question, but many people don't know what neurofeedback is. Okay. So could you maybe, you know, briefly explain to the audience, what is neurofeedback? What are we doing when we're practicing neurofeedback? Okay, well, we'll start at the beginning, feedback. If you step on a scale, and the meter goes up or the number's fine, you're getting feedback about your weight. If you put a thermometer in your mouth and take your temperature, you're getting feedback about your temperature. Well, you can also do that in real time. You can take a little thermistor and put it on your finger, and it'll record the temperature and flash a light of the temperature. And if you do, like, relaxing or autogenic phrases like, my hands are heavy and warm, your blood flow to the hand will increase, temperature will go up. If you think of something scary or makes you anxious, you have vasoconstriction, the temperature will go down. It gives you real time feedback on processes in your body. Well, neurofeedback is feedback on the activity, the electrical activity of the brain. Now, brain waves are very tiny signals. An eye blink produces signals 10 to 50 times bigger than the biggest brain waves. That gives you an idea how small they are. And they come in a spectrum, like a rainbow of colors. If you take a prism and you pass sunlight through it, it breaks it down into a spectrum. The slowest frequency is red, and then you go orange, yellow, green, teal, blue, indigo violet, which is the fastest frequency. Well, we have the electronic equivalent of a prism, those silicon chips and microprocessors. And so we put in not a shaft of sunlight, but a channel of brainwaves. We amplify them about 100,000 times from the way they come off the head to be big enough for the computer to read them. And then it breaks it down into the spectrum. The slowest frequency are delta, like the red light, and then as the frequencies increase, you have theta, you have Schumann, you have alpha, you have beta, and you have gamma. And the totality is within about 100 hertz. Now, when we're talking about cell phones, we're talking about megahertz and gigahertz signals. So brainwaves are very slow compared to that, which to a certain extent makes them hard to work with, especially the really slow ones like delta. Now, the alpha's not the fastest, it's not the slowest. And the way it was called alpha is because it's typically the biggest. And in 1908, when the Austrian psychiatrist, her doctor, Dr. Hans Berger, went looking, consciously looking for electrical activity in the brain, the first one he found was alpha because it was the biggest and the easiest to detect with his very primitive equipment. And so he kept it a secret for 10 years, thinking it was related to ESP, which it is, but it couldn't be determined with his primitive equipment. And then he published, 1918, I've actually read his original paper in German with the help of a German English dictionary, because there are a lot of big signs of a German word in there. But then it spread rapidly all over the world. Every major hospital, every university wanted to have equipment to record brainwaves. And a whole science developed around that, psychophysics, for example. But in 1962, a Japanese American named Joe Kamiya, working at the University of California, San Francisco, accidentally discovered that when he would give people feedback about the occurrence of alpha, that they would make more. Like he was doing a sleep researcher, and he'd have somebody, a student, lying on a cot, wearing a new, right next to the polygraph machine, trying to fall asleep. And he's running the polygraph. And if he would see a big alpha wave burst, he'd go, wow, there's a big alpha wave. And it would almost always be followed by another one. And he got, maybe my telling somebody that they just had an alpha burst is somehow giving them what we now call neuro feedback. At the time it was called brainwave feedback. And so he made it electronic so that there'd be a little bell that would come on or a sound that would come on when an alpha, and people began doing it. Now, when I came into the field, 90% of all the public studies were failing to show increases with feedback above your initialized closed resting baseline. And so my analysis, because I was getting positive results, 90% of the others were failing to train alpha. And what I realized was that they were using bad equipment, bad methodology, like some were trying to train people with their eyes open, or some were trying to train people lying down or semi recline, which promotes drowsiness to do alpha. I mean, you don't do meditation lying down. You know, Yogananda said, if you, for best posture for meditation is imagine you have a hook at the top of your head, and you're being hung from that. So your spine is like perfectly straight. And so then many other technical details, but the fact is, I kind of set the field on a new direction with a paper entitled conflicting results in the EG alpha feedback, why integrated amplitude should replace percent time as the method of doing neurofeedback. And so, you know, if you do it right, you're likely to get results. This essentially involves having electrodes placed on your head in strategic positions that will measure your brain waves. They're feeding that information into usually a computer of some kind. That computer is measuring the brain rays and giving you feedback about what's happening. And in a program like, for example, BioCybernaut, we're then given in given direction as to how we might generate the waves that we're after. Yeah. That just to keep it at that. And so you mentioned a prism or a range of waves. I think before we dive into the rest of the podcast, I think it would be helpful for people to understand, at least with, well, Delta waves, a lot of people have heard about because of sleep. That's usually your deep sleep wave. Then there's alpha. There's theta, beta, gamma. Maybe you just want to very quickly touch on those. Oh, sure. And maybe we'll spend a couple extra minutes on alpha and explaining to people why this is the, this is really where the work begins in neurofeedback. It's not necessarily where it ends, but this is where it begins. Yeah. Beautiful. Oh, what a profound series of questions. Okay. So Delta is zero to four cycles per second. It is seen in stages three and four of sleep. Now there is a low range of Delta below half a hertz that's unique and is sometimes called epsilon. Very hard to work with because of the low frequency. But at one point I was doing some epsilon feedback here, Cybernaut and Sedona. And I went into this vast space of consciousness. And when I was finished, I was guided to call her role in a satcha saimaa, Lakshmi Devi. Who did the training a few years ago here? And she and I, it became good friends. So I called her up and she looked, she looked through the phone. She saw me energy. She said, whoa, you've been traveling. And what was it like? And I said, oh, saimaa, the emptiness. And we just laughed and laughed and laughed. Okay. So that's epsilon. Now Delta is also associated with Kundalini. And so any Kundalini awakening is going to involve Delta. Now, but it's also, there's medical things here. Delta is produced by, and theta are produced by rapidly growing brain tumors. One time I had a guy in training who was a database programmer working for a small company. And he was so good that IBM was buying out his company in order to acquire his contract. So he, when he walked in, he had some Delta in his right frontal. During the training on day five of the seven days, he had a minor Kundalini experience where he felt the energy come up. He was all above and the Delta increased. Now, by prior arrangement, the QEEG people had done a scan of his brain and his nine year old son's brain who trained with him before they started the training. And at the end, and they made a CD, they sent it off to their analysis group in Texas. Three days later, I get a worried call from an MD say, you've got to contact that trainee because he has an aggressive, rapidly growing brain tumor. Because the Delta had increased a lot in the seven days. They didn't understand Kundalini. I didn't try to explain it to the MD, but I called the guy. He was, you know, economists about it. He just done his Alpha training. He was unflappable, couldn't ruffle his feathers. He went and got an MRI the next day and everything was fine. There was no rapidly growing brain tumor. So, but do we have to deal with that? Sometimes, I tell people who knew Delta or Theta trainings, don't tell your neurologist about this because they'll be freaked out. In fact, if I may go sideways with another story, I recorded in 1988, the first example of Kundalini. If you like later, I can get into the story. It's a fascinating story. But I showed this at one of Rob Call's winter brain conferences, after which, Gary Schwartz, very famous high-psychole, he's just from Harvard and I think Yale, came up to me, whispered in my ear and he said, when I was at Harvard, I had a student come up to me and he insisted that I measure his brainwives. He was practicing Kundalini yoga. Well, Gary Schwartz knew enough about electrodes and polygraphs. So, he took the kid down to the neurology department, put some electrodes on him, recorded his brainwives and came up with a record that he said very similar to what I was just showing, the group at the winter brain conference. And Gary knew enough, e.g., to be freaked out about this because waking Delta, what's going on? So, he took the big honka-polygraph paper to a colleague in the neurology department at Harvard and the professor freaked out and went, oh my God, do I ever do that on this campus again? But could I keep the record because I want to share it with a couple of colleagues. And then Gary said he promptly lost the big honka-polygraph paper, which Gary said is what science often does with anomalous data. So, there's some stories about Delta. We do Delta trainings, but they are by invitation only after people have done Alpha and Theta trainings because Delta confers powers like Obi-Wan Kenobi and we want to make sure people have done enough forgiveness work and ethical cleansing because we don't want to create any Darth Vader's. Right. Okay. There's enough of those in the world. Enough. Then Theta is 47, and Theta waves characterize the stage one and stage two of sleep. And they also give you access to the Akashic records. So, when you go into Theta, you can access the unlimited database of all knowledge that was, is, and ever will be. Now, at one point, Michael Ray was a professor at Stanford. I had a training center near Stanford University. I was partnering with Foster Gamble, where it was called Mind Center. And Michael Ray came over and gave talks and he'd written a book called Creativity and Business. And he had interviewed many of the titans of industry in the large companies of Silicon Valley. And what he found was that they had gotten in trouble as kids in school for trancing out in Theta and staring thoughtlessly and wordlessly out the window. But of course, with the ability to go into Theta, they could bring in information not known to any human in their historical time period, which would put them in a position to be the CEO of, you know, some high tech company. And so, but Theta is also seen around rapidly growing brain tumors. So, in fact, before MRIs, it used to be the only non-invasive way to detect such things. Okay, then we come to Epsilon. I'm sorry, we come to the gap between Theta and Alpha, which is seven to eight Hertz. And we call that Schumann. Now, before the mid fifties, none of the EEG textbooks reported any human brain waves existing between seven and eight. That's mother earth frequency. The Schumann frequency is typically 7.83 Hertz. And but following the mid fifties, at which point, television intruded into most homes, people now show Epsilon waves. And we can talk about that in, you know, later if you want. Above Epsilon is Alpha, which is eight cycles to 13 cycles. And they're slow, middle and fast with different high frequency Alpha associate with intellectual brilliance, low frequency Alpha associate with more deep meditation. Above Alpha is Beta, which is 13 to 25 cycles per second. And then Gamma is 25 cycles up to about 100. Alpha is the certainly in the beginning stages of neurofeedback training, Alpha is where we focus our attention. Why? Well, many reason. Alpha is like Brainwave 101. Alpha has a foot in the practical, phenomenal, you know, three dimensional reality world. And it also has a foot in the mystical, magical, transcendent world. And the another reason is that everybody has some Alpha all the time. It might be big, it might be a little, but for example, theta is intermittent. If somebody hasn't done Alpha training first, which increases their theta also, they could lie in the theta chair and yes, for theta and delta, you do lie down, whereas Alpha, you need to sit up. You could lie there for two or three or four minutes and no feedback because there doesn't happen to be any theta at the moment. It could be very frustrating, especially if you try to start there. And so there's always some Alpha. And if it's little, we can amplify it more. We can turn up the volume. And so you can get started. But we should also note that Alpha takes you quite a long way, both Samadhi, the super conscious state in yoga and Satori, the super conscious state in Zen are characterized by super high Alpha all over the head. In fact, on my first trip to India, one of the yogis I worked with, when he walked into the room, it was like, it was like the sun had come up. He had this beatific radiance. He just wanted to be near him. He only spoke Hindi. Everything was translated. My ticket to India was I had just built the world's first micro computerized brainwave feedback and analyzer system. So he's asking questions. Well, what is this? And I'm saying, well, it's the world's first microprocessor based brainwave feedback and analyzer system. What's a microprocessor? I go, well, it's like a little brain. Well, can I see it? Well, there was wire wrapped. It was fragile and hand built it. But I had spares in memory foam. And I bring out one of the 40 pin chip at Motorola 6800. He's like petting it. Oh, nice brain, nice brain. So we wire him up and start recording his, his metadata. He has high Alpha. The next two minutes turn to runs and he's got higher Alpha. The next two minutes higher. The next minute higher. The next two minutes higher Alpha. Well, as you personally know, even if you're on an uptrend, you don't go like this. You go up and down. He never went down. Mathematicians call this a monotonic increase. And after about an hour, he opened his eyes, Alpha's like huge. He opens his eyes as a flash of light comes out. He speaks something in Hindi. He's translated. He said, well, I'd like to go on, but the light is getting so bright. If I go any further, I won't be able to come back and tell you about it. He could have gone right out into a Mahasamadhi. And I was very grateful because I would have had trouble explaining a dead body to the Indian police, especially with my wires connected to my equipment, plugged into a transformer, plugged into the 400 volt power that they use in India. So yeah, Alpha can take you all the way out of gone to the outer body. Yeah, Samadhi. If people have heard of neurofeedback, they think about it as a way to improve focus, maybe reduce their stress. But there's clearly a lot more potential. That is, I don't believe that those things were particularly mentioned during the neurofeedback training I did with you. That was not the goal. Can you walk us through some of the advanced concepts behind brainwave optimization and how it impacts our daily lives? Sure. Well, in physical fitness, people go for three things, strength, flexibility and endurance. And in my fitness, you go for three things, strength, flexibility and endurance. So strength is bigger power, flexibility is ability to turn alpha off or on. You want to have control of this and endurance is to be able to sustain. Birds come in flocks, lions come in prides and alpha waves come in spindles. A spindle is a group of alpha waves traveling through time together. And the spindles can be short like, you know, they're 10 per second typically, 8 to 13 is the frequency range. So you can have 8 to 13 cycles per second. And there can be some spindles that are less than a half a second long. In advanced meditators, they can be 5, 10. I've even seen 20 seconds long in advanced meditators. Now, after 20 seconds, there'll be a distraction. They'll lose it. They'll fall out of state for maybe a second and then they'll get right back in. So strength, flexibility and endurance. Now, how you do neurofeedback training makes a big difference. For example, there's distributed practice and mass practice. We do seven consecutive long days. You could not get anywhere near the results if you came in one day a week for seven weeks, or one day a month for seven months. One way to think of it in all spiritual practice, whether it's Zen or yoga or Christian, they recognize the opposition of the devil or the ego or the distraction. I think of ego as the internal ambassador of the great darkness or for theological people, the internal ambassador of the devil. And so it's a battle between the force of light and the force of dark. And if you're a general in a battle and you have a big breakthrough, you don't retire to your camp and feast and party for a week because the enemy will reinforce dug trenches, put up tank traps and brought in reinforcement. So you have to go every day as you push back, push back, push back the ego, which uses doubt, drowsiness, distractibility and worry aversion, any form of ill will, boredom and forgetfulness to undermine sabotage and limit your attainment of higher states. And so how you do it really matters. There's also things that we patented about the biosyvernut technology, like tones, the tone comes on to give you feedback. Well, the frequency of the tone matters. There's an ideal range between four and 800 hertz, which we patented for alpha. Higher pitch tones are better for theta and delta, but four to 800 hertz tones provide minimum disruption of alpha when the tone comes on. And so there's a lot of science that doesn't show behind how biosyvernut does the work. But yes, and for example, there's that we mentioned Kundalini, the Delta waves. The first Kundalini awakening I ever had, this is after five, six years of meditation in the Ogonata tradition, some of the quite disciplined morning and night for years. I was leading a theta training at MindCenter and there was a spare chamber. And so I got electrodes on and I went in and I was lying there doing theta while my trainees were also doing their theta training. And this incredible energy came up my spine. It pushed everything that was me like name, identity, everything to the far outer edges and it just poured through. And it was massive delta over 30,000 on a scale where in the first 15 years of doing this work, only 40% of the people had broken 1000 with their alpha scores. And I've never seen an alpha score higher than 9,000. In fact, I've never seen 9,000, but this was 30,000 of delta. And I was profoundly changed by that. But there's also, and those are trainable. But we also have the ability to train the angel pattern. Yeah. And the angel pattern is alpha, where you have higher central alpha than occipital, and they have to be above specific thresholds. And so we have the ability to train that. I remember we had a San Francisco 49er come in for alpha training. And he did not have the angel pattern. But on day five, his central alpha went way up above the required threshold. His occipitals were already high enough. And he went, I can't say when he came out of the chamber that he was white as a sheet because he was a big black guy. But he was shaken to his core because three angels had shown up different sizes and different colors in his chamber and went, you haven't been living a very good life, which was true. And he went, ah, and he made major changes in his life as a result of that experience. So yeah, that is trainable. Maybe let's let's change tax right now and just go back to one of these questions and just say, you know, for the people who, you know, many of whom are very familiar with basic health optimization techniques, what are some of the more nuanced or lesser known benefits of neural feedback that you just you feel deserve more attention? So basically, what's the outcome people are looking for? Right? Like what can people expect? So people to know about better focus and managing their stress. What's what's the outcome of the type of neuro feedback that you do at Biosarbonaut that people can expect? Wonderful questions. And there's so many wonderful benefits that have actually spent decades researching and publishing on those results. First of all, there's a 50% increase in creativity. The IQ boost is almost 12 points. And we know that's stable to rising even a year out. There's a boost of 15.8 points in EQ, which is emotional intelligence, which Travis Bradbury and Gene Greaves in their book, Emotional Intelligence 2.0, describes as accounting for 58% of your success in life. EQ is so critical to success that it accounts for 58% of performance in all types of jobs. And he said, the link between EQ and earnings is so direct that every one point increase in EQ adds $1,300 to annual salary. And that is on a global average. So if you're in a first world country, you can expect much more than that. So what does that make sense? Right? Are you Yeah, our EQ enables us to interact more appropriately and more constructively with the people around us so that it's a direct payoff, right? Well, and the emotions are a key thing here, because yes, EQ, you have to read and understand your own emotions, and you have to be able to read and understand others emotions. And what blocks that is emotional trauma. In May of 2007, Drunvlo Melkisadek and his wife, Claudette, did the Alpha training at Biosibronov Center in Santa Clara, California. And at the time, he had over 550 teachers around the world delivering his workshops, like Awakening the Illuminated Heart. And he said to me at the end, he said, Jim, you know, 50% no, he said 95% of all the people who do his courses do not get the fullness of his teachings. Reason always the same, he said, emotional trauma. And then he added that he'd never found anything as powerful as the Biosibronov Alpha training for eliminating emotional trauma. And the way we do that is two steps. I wrote a computer program that administers published mood scales, measuring anxiety, depression, hostility, you know, things like that, friendly, clear thinking, sleepy, unhappy, dizzy. And I wrote the program in such a way people sit in the chamber with their brain waves being measured while they're putting their answers in like friendly four, unhappy, zero, you know, whatever. And the program calculates the likelihood of each answer's accuracy. And so let's say the word is anger in person puts zero, not at all. Computer goes, I don't think so, three segments, that means a 95% chance, no, two segments and 95% chance, the answer is wrong, three segments and 99.7. So then the trainer would ask the person, you denied anger, but the computer thinks maybe there's something there. What about in your unconscious? So the person maybe a tear comes out, lips tremble a little, and then what comes out is a story about some trauma and there's a perpetrator and that person goes on the forgiveness list. Now, I've done tens of thousands of interviews with people around this process. And when I began, I didn't know how to do forgiveness. I would suggest things, people would try things. And over the decades, I've collected what turns it to be a 14 step method for forgiveness. I sometimes have Christian fundamentalists say, Oh, we're so glad you have a faith based process of forgiveness. And I go, faith had nothing to do with it. It's there because it works. It helps people get rid of dramas, helps raise their alpha. And it does. And so I would suggest that all the benefits of IQ, creativity, emotional intelligence are directly related to reduction of the emotional traumas. I've trained over 200 Canadian Aboriginals at my former center in BC, Victoria, BC, Canada. And they had PTSD post traumatic stress syndrome worse than many returning war veterans, in part because of the residential schools where Georgina Lightning's film older than America documented that 50% of the Indian children sent to those schools died there. Mass graves have been discovered outside some of them. So these people were traumatized. After training over 100 of them, I was invited to speak at the United Nations in Geneva about the work. And so the forgiveness works for depression, sadness, and anger. But to get rid of fear, we use a different process, we actually have two. One is a worst case scenario, where you think of something that you're afraid of might happen, and you catastrophize. You imagine it happens and then gets worse and worse, you're making it happen. And at a certain point, you push the pause button, and you just freeze it, you know, the bear is about to eat you or whatever you push the pause button. And you just leave it, you don't try to fix it. You go off and do something that makes alpha like petting puppies, kissing babies, floating on a surfboard in a blue lagoon, whatever floats your alpha. And the alpha will dissolve the fear the way the morning sun dissolves the fog. Yeah, to feel it to heal it. And the mood scales that denied items are like point on the the signals tell the trainer about our pointers to where the traumas are buried. For example, if you and I got a treasure map, and there was a seven mile long beach 100 yards from the water to the sand dunes, and we know there's a treasure map there, we could spend years digging and not finding anything. But we have a metal detector, we go up and down the beach, no, we might find a few rusty anchors, but we will find that treasure faster than random digging. So I've developed over the decades tools to detect and to heal the traumas. Everyone is chasing collagen creams. But here's the real plot twist. Your skin cannot make collagen if your cells stop sending the signal. As we age, that communication line gets fuzzy, and your cells get tired and repair slows. Blue peptide spray from young goose brings the message back loud and clear with NAD plus apex to refuel energy, methylene blue to recharge your mitochondria and GHKCU to tell your skin, hey, start making that collagen again. It's longevity science, not cosmetic hype, working at the cellular level instead of just layering on top. So keep your skin talking, visit young goose.com, use code NAT10 to get started. Or if you're already a young goose customer, you can use code five NAT to still save. You've spoken about how different brain wave patterns influence mental and physical health, and everybody's after that, right? Everybody's after performance and that kind of stuff. But how do these mental states, how do you think these mental states tie into longevity, really to improve the aging process? Well, how about reversing it? How about it? Yeah, we can do that in post-op, we can actually reverse aging in the brain. And here's how. It turns out that once hardening of the artery sets in, called atherosclerosis, which depending on your diet, your genetics, your lifestyle, can happen as early as your 20s, your alpha frequency start to slow. The slowing rate is a tenth of a hertz for every 10 years of life. And when they drop off below eight hertz, you don't have alpha anymore. It's theta or delta, and people enter senescence or senility and usually die soon thereafter. But we can throw them like a life preserver on a rope, and we can pull them back up into alpha, where they can live alpha's life, and the more alpha you have, the more life you have. I'll give you a couple of studies. There was a hospital admission study done at a large urban hospital in Southern California, where for a six-month period, anyone who was admitted to the hospital was given a routine EEG recording. This could be stabbing, gunshot wound, auto accident, pregnancy, elective surgery, didn't matter. If you were admitted, you'd gotten an EEG. Six months later, they followed up those people. Half, 50% of those admitted with a non-alpha record were dead six months later. Then there's another fascinating study. I was privileged to be the student of Dr. Charles Elieger, who was a now-vanished breed of scientists called a clinical electroencephalographer. He could look at a 21-channel EEG recording from Polygraph and make accurate psychiatric diagnoses. And it was so good that in the mid-1950s, the state government of California approached him and requested him to accept a grant. Now, that's not usually how you get a grant. The government doesn't come on. Yeah, you say it happened bravo for one of those. And what they wanted him to do with the money that they were proposing to give him was to buy EEG equipment and put it in the state hospitals all over California. At the peak, they had about 45 of them until Governor Reagan shut them all down. Some were large, with hundreds of patients and others had dozens. And so every year, Dr. Elieger would drive with a team of EEG technicians to each of the hospitals. They would go out into the war and bring in the patients, put electrodes on, run a polygraph, then bring it to Dr. Elieger, who would sit across the desk from him, and he would flip through the polygraph looking at the person. And he would make recommendations for their treatment, maybe change their drugs, maybe change their therapies, or maybe even that they could be released. Now, after he had been doing that for 30 years, I had already won a large federal grant, which I'll mention parenthetically. It was called anxiety and aging. Intervention with the EEG Alpha Feedback, a large three-year grant from National Institute of Mental Health. So Dr. Elieger knew I was working with the Brainwave Training to reverse aging. And so he wanted to share this information with me. So he said, Jim, I want to take you to lunch because I have important information to share with you in your career path that I don't know how to put into a scientific journal. But I'm sure you will find opportunities to talk about this. And Natalie, this is one of those opportunities. So Dr. Elieger thanks you for being able to receive and pass on this information. So here's what he said. Every year, he's measuring brainwaves on these people. And he said, if the person was 101 years old and they still had good strong Alpha in their EEG record, he knew they would be alive next year when he came back. On the other hand, it was the young person of 27 and their Alpha had diminished or was gone. He would say a very special goodbye. He would even hug the person because he knew it was unlikely they would be alive a year later when he came back. Alpha is life. Absence of Alpha is an indicator of imminently impending mortality. The more Alpha brainwaves you have, the better and longer life you are going to have. Okay, well, that's a vote for Alpha. So given that everybody listening to this won't necessarily be able to make their way to Sedona to BioCybernaut to do their Alpha training, what do you think the most effective tools and techniques to increase Alpha are that people have might be able to access? Nothing will be as effective, let's say, as seven days solid spent in the chamber at BioCybernaut. But what can people do until they can get there? Or in the meantime, beautiful question. Well, now I should mention that we are working on a project to train military veterans, which there are tens of millions. There's also government money for this. Every year, the government sets aside $30 billion for treating veterans. And the best that they've been able to draw down is 12. So there's 18 billion a year. So we are planning a 12 chamber system here in Sedona, where we'll use CPT codes to demand. And we've obviously we work with veterans before we can cure TBI traumatic brain injury PTSD. And so that's coming in the training will be free for them. Just like the 200 Canadian aboriginals, the training was free for them because we had a scholarship sponsor. So what can people do? Well, there are many things that you can do. Now, remember, Tony Robbins, who did the training here, said it was one of the most powerful things he's done in his life, said, if you're not serious, don't bother. Because as you know, it's work. So one of the things you can do is to eliminate garlic, onions, and all the members of the onion family leak scallion, shallots and chives, because these measurably lower your alpha waves. And they, for example, Brahmins in India are forbidden to eat onions and garlic because it's known to promote what's called a Rajasic temperament. Rajas is ego activity, willfulness. And so I can make a joke about, and it's a European joke, that if you tie in Italian's hands behind his or her back, they can't talk because it's like, but if you take the garlic out of their diet, they're peaceful, they're calm. And so garlic, onions and their family are inimical to alpha. They sabotage meditative practice and they sabotage peace of mind, and they promote ego activity, willfulness, agitation of the mind. So cutting those out, well, here's another one, caffeine. They're not just my studies, but there are other studies showing that caffeine suppresses both alpha and delta waves. And so coffee is fine. There's a lot of health benefits to coffee if you take out the caffeine. That's how I drink it. Decaf, no, decaf doesn't do it because by law, if someone takes out 40% of the caffeine, they can call it decaf. Yes, but mine has 80% gone. Oh, that's better. Absolutely. I agree with that. But what about, what about things like, we'll meditate, we'll practicing meditation help, for example, or walking in nature? Like, are there, I mean, I get the inputs, but what about practices that people can take on that can be helpful? Well, I highly recommend walking in nature, being in nature, I highly recommend meditation. The problem is feedback, lack of feedback. Every teacher, every parent knows that when a child needs feedback the most is at the beginning, because almost everything they're doing is wrong. Now, once if you can persist, and then nobody was rated advanced, who had less than 21 years of daily practice. When you get to that point, you meditate, you get feedback, you get beautiful images and visions and celestial smells and heavenly sounds, angelic choruses, but not in the beginning. It takes a long time to get there. It takes a long time to get there. And if you're one of the lucky few who persists, well, then yes, exactly. But I've had, for example, I've actually trained a Zen master who came from Japan. He had 150 students at the end of his Alpha training. He said in somewhat broken English, he goes, I also have a lot better than having owned Zen master. And I go, Ruho, how can you say that? And he goes, listen, you have Zen master, master busy, have many students. You sit, you meditate, you have attainment, master busy, not notice. Next day or today, master see, you see you different, give you feedback, what I brought, go up a little, at Bio-Cybernaut feedback all the time. And he repeated Bio-Cybernaut better than having owned Zen master. Wow. Well, that's quite the endorsement. So, okay, so let's talk a bit about the subconscious and how big a role it's really playing in health and longevity. I mean, you know, I'm going to keep coming back to health and longevity because that's what people come to this podcast. Sure. Right. They're looking, how can I live a longer, healthier, more vibrant life? And I think we agree that our consciousness and our mind sit at the center of that ability, both our belief and our ability to move forward in this world and be at peace. Because we know that, you know, on a very basic level stress is the biggest killer. Yeah. 80% of some people say causes 80% of all diseases. It also shortens telomeres. Like at a physiological level, it shortens chronic stress, shortens telomeres. So let's talk about, but that subconscious mind where is that where the ego lives? Like you mentioned ego before, and, you know, being on good terms with our ego and having it in its proper place, not that we want to destroy ego completely, because I think like, like stress. As long as you have a body, you have an ego, right? And you can't just get on people or subtle and have an essence and rarely an evidence. But as long as you have a body, you have an ego, but ego is no me amigo. You go noise me amigo. Okay. So what role does subconscious mind play in health and longevity? And how does neurofeedback help to rewire those patterns? Well, it plays a big role. If you look at the 10% of an iceberg that floats above the surface, there's a lot there in the unconscious. And it regulates, it guides, it blocks, or it facilitates depending on the programming. And very few techniques other than deep neurofeedback can intervene with that. For example, like forgiveness is a way matched with the Biosubnaut mood scales to know what to forget, is a way to excavate the negativity out of the unconscious. When I was training Ruho Yamada Roshi, the Zen master, he had no idea, never heard of forgiveness. Zen is a shame, Japan is a shame based culture. And I said, well, what do you do if you discover something comes up from your unconscious that troubles him? He said, well, we try to expand our consciousness more so the distraction becomes a smaller percentage. He had no idea you could eliminate these things. Okay. And so with forgiveness, we can eliminate things from the unconscious that are depression, sadness, and anger based. And with the worst case scenario, we can eliminate fear based things. And so when you clear out the unconscious, well, I should mention that the mood scales, the Biosubnaut mood scales detect both negative things in the unconscious, but they also detect positive things in the unconscious, like loving, caring, devoted, people may have that in them, but be totally oblivious of it. And so as part of the forgiveness process at the end of a successful forgiveness, we asked people to do what we call the love algorithm, where you would go, I love you, Natalie, I love you, Natalie, I love you, Natalie. And then to take one of the positive, denied items, like grateful or devoted or loving or kind, and to go, I love you, Natalie, I love you, Natalie, I'm devoted, I love you, Natalie, I love you, Natalie, I'm devoted. So you bring up and you install in your consciousness that positivity that was buried uselessly in your unconscious. So it's pulling out the good stuff and flushing out what pulls us back. Pulling up and installing the good stuff and pulling up and disposing of the bad stuff, exactly. And so from a longevity and health perspective, the clearer we, the more, the more we've taken out the trash and brought out the beautiful items of, the easier it is to live a long and healthy life. So I love that. Is there a specific example where neurofeedback helped someone break through a mental barrier that had been, that had been limiting their health or their success? Is there one story that you can share with us today? I know you have thousands because you've been doing this a long time and you've done some amazing work with people. But is there one that stands out in your mind either that helps someone to be healthier or, I mean, more successful as a gimme. I mean, if our creativity goes up, our IQ goes up and our EQ goes up, how could we not be more successful? Well, let me say, yeah, there are many, but one that comes jumping in. And I'm going to just cite this as an example. In the perhaps 7,000 plus people who've come for training over the years, there were five men who showed up for alpha training, some in the US, some in my center in Canada, who happened to mention on day one that they were pre-op for prostate cancer. Actually, one of the five was not going to be operated on. He was going to have little radioactive dowels surgically inserted in his prostate. Amazing. We just did. I mean, I can give you stories to indicate things about how it worked and why it worked. But the bottom line was at the end of their alpha training, every one of them individually went back to their doctors who couldn't find any prostate cancer. Interesting. Now, do you know who Dr. Carl Simonson was? He was the founder of a field called psychoancology or healing cancer with the mind. And he had a five day coaching program. He had refined the program to the point that he could take a group of terminal cancer patients with a prognosis of one year or less left to live, and he could double their median survival time. Now, doubling the average you could do by having a few superstars. Doubling the median means he's helping everybody. And so in 2003, he came for training. Oh, I need to mention that because of this work, he was put on the FDA's Cooke list. Cooke. Cooke. FDA has a Cooke list. Okay. Medical practitioners. Amazing. That's so good to hear. But because he healed so many congressmen and senators and their spouses of cancer, he has the distinction of being the only person ever taken off the FDA's Cooke list. Nice. So in 2003, he came from my training and I was in the Shockley building in Mountain View, California, where William Shockley invented the silicon transistor, launching the information processing agent. I fashioned that we were launching the consciousness processing age out of that same building. And so he did the Alpha training. He loved the mood scales. You know, he's into emotions. He healed cancer by processing people's emotions. In a session, he'd do the forgiveness and eliminate the forgiveness. The sigmas would go away on those words. One, he'd start on, not finish. Sigma would go down. The fifth one he would get to, the sigma would go up. So in the end, day seven, everybody else left, and he and I sat and talked far into the night. My first question, Carl, you can double the median survival time cancer with your coaching program. What would a biosalvinate Alpha one training do? Immediately, he said it would triple the median survival time. And he added that if you would do his training first to get people focused on which emotions are relevant to surviving cancer, and then do the biosalvinate training, it would produce more than a doubling followed by a tripling. Now he worked himself too hard and he's no longer in a body. But I think his wife, her name was Karen Simon, I think, is still running his programs. He was in the 818 area code of California. I mean, this brings to mind Joe dispenses work, right, which, which is not neurofeedback, right, but definitely has power guided people. Incredible power. I'd love to connect with him. I hear so many good things about his work. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, just when you talk about the psycho oncology, like definitely there are stories around people who have shrunk tumors and overcome incredible disease. So I'm not to cut you short, but we're going to get short on time. So I want to move on to the next question. So where do you see the field of neurofeedback in 10 years? What do you think's coming or what do you hope or what do you, where do you see it going? Well, I can tell you what I'm doing. I can, well, that works. I have outsourced my hardware development to a team in Serbia. And we have a whole new range of technologies later this year. We'll be opening a new center in Mexico and we're planning to use the new technology there, which among other things will allow us to do shared feedback between chambers, between, oh, that's interesting, between cities and between countries. So we can get the whole world on the same wavelength and you know, the power that comes from that. Okay. Now, how to democratize it. Trainers are very rare and expensive people. They have to be scientifically and intellectually brilliant to understand the technology and the complexities of the human electroencephalograms. They also have to be big-hearted to be able to, because there are times in a training when people are having an ego attack, there's no logic that's going to work. There's no words that you could say. The trainer just has to open their heart and flood the person with love. It's the only thing that'll get past the blockages of the ego. So to find somebody who's good and either one of those is hard to find people are good in both is challenging. So I am with a programmer developing an AI assistant for trainers. Currently, we measure 128 different brain parameters every 15 seconds, even in an advanced alpha or theta training or delta training, people are only getting eight parameters. But there's things happening in all the other 120 parameters, which is beyond even my ability to track. But the AI is going to track trends and things going on in the delta and the gamma and the theta in the Schumann in the epsilon. And then also the moods. As you know, there's hundreds of words you respond to every day. No trainer can remember how many times a person denied a particular word and how did that signal change over the seven days of the training. But the AI is going to be able to track that and the AI is going to be able to make correlation between changes in these 128 brain parameters and these multiple hundreds of emotional words. And it's going to come up with guidance, which I submit will be beyond the ability of any human to match. And there'll be a human there who is the source of love, the heart hold, this heart space holder. And so this will be an AI assistant for trainers. And we'll be able to train soon millions of people all around the world. Interesting. Well, I love the bringing AI into the picture, right? Because as you were talking earlier and talking about stacks of paper of neurofeedback brainwaves, it begs that is that stack of paper is begging. Her number cruncher that frankly, that I think that's where AI could really shine for us. But having the human there and having you informing the process is this blending of mastery with you just need a cruncher to crunch through the data to give you what you need to make work your magic. It's brilliant. Well, it's amazing. It's a reprise of how I began in the field. Because I had a physics degree of bachelor's degree in physics and I knew how to evaluate signals. And I knew that none of the brainwave feedback equipment on the market was even a toy. They were inaccurate to the max and the feedback was unconsciously designed. And so I spent the first some years building the tools. I first built the world's best analog filters with 400 dB per octave roll off on the slopes, a third of a dB ripple in the past. And then I built the world's first microprocessor to run the whole thing. And so I'm now all the way back to building the tools. The first thing I have to do is teach the AI how to read the brainwaves. Because brainwaves are notorious for artifact. I mean, an eye blink produces artifacts 10 to 50 times bigger than the biggest brainwaves. Imagine what a sneeze does or a swallow or if an electrode comes loose. So yeah, the first step is to get the AI to read and eliminate artifacts from the brainwave. And then we could go forward. I'm building the tools. I'm in a new phase of building the tools. I love it. I love it. I love it. So that's the 10-year vision. And I don't think it'll take 10 years. It won't. No. And the AI is getting better at writing the Python code. Do you think that the future of mental health care will finally shift towards more brain-based treatments like neural feedback? Well, it'll have to. But back when I was still in the university, I had a psychiatrist come to me in private practice psychiatrist and wanted to do the training. And I said, how do you find out about us? He said, well, you've trained some of my patients and you've done more for them in seven days. And I've been able to do in 20 years. I want to know what you're doing. No doubt. No doubt. So how do we get adoption of this? Like, how do we get it out there? I mean, we kind of talked about it a little bit offline before we started recording. And, you know, the word democratize comes to mind. But even beyond democratizing, like this is, you know, neural feedback training, dealing with trauma, dealing with pain, getting the ego in check, you know, bringing up the good stuff, getting rid of the trash, all of these things we've been talking about. These are if people could have access to this and more, more widely, I mean, if everybody had access, if we could do it in schools, before they get totally damaged, like the world would be a different place. How do we how do we even imagine that to bring this to more as a starting point to more people? Yeah, given the technology and the staff and the time involved, there's no way, you know, that this can be, you know, the cost of a bag of groceries. No, okay. And it can't be done for children under seven, because before seven, they haven't entered the formal operational stage of intelligence. And the things that pass for alpha waves are not even eight cycles per second, the child's brain is still developing. They could do peripheral feedback. But brainwave feedback, hopefully, they don't need it before the age of seven. We will train people as young as seven, the range currently goes up to 101. Now, what can we do? We can, for example, in 2008, I asked myself this question. It turns out that I went to look at the size of the defense budget. And I couldn't get current figures, but I was able to get 2004. Half of the US defense budget in 2004 would train give biosavvy training to all 300 million North Americans, adult North Americans. So the money's there. It's just being allocated, shall we say, differently. The money is there. The we as a society as societies, we have the financial resources. And with the new technology that I'm developing in Serbia, we can stamp it out by the millions of training centers. So this literally can be in every school and in every home. So as the AI rolls out, once that system gets refined, do you think the cost will come down? Well, of course, dramatically. It becomes less labor intensive to execute. Okay, so as we come to the end of our close to the end of our conversation, I have one last question for you. So as someone who spent his career, more than his career, really, studying and helping optimize their brain function, how have you personally seen your own mindset and longevity change over the years? How what are the changes you've experienced? I mean, I know the answer to the question was I spent a lot of time talking to you. But would you share with the audience your progression? Because it is and as you say, it's a never ending journey, it's a progression. Well, in fact, as soon as we you and I finish, Jaren is here, he's going to put electrodes on my head and I'm going to do a tune up from the six level. Okay, so I mean, it's been a progression. I in the summer between eighth grade and high school, my dad brought me into his office and said, Jim, you're a smart kid, and you're probably going to want to go to college. I'm here to tell you, I'm not going to give you a dime. If you want to go to college, you'll have to study hard and get a scholarship. So I studied every night till 2am, even on the weekends. I had one day in all of high school, I took Linda Tadaro to the senior prom. But I worked all the time studying and I got a big scholarship. I went to Carnegie Tech and so on. But all of that produced with done with a lot of anxiety. I bit my fingernails till they were gone. And then being agile, I bit my toenails until they were gone. And that continued until after I had that experience in Joe Camille's chamber. And now I have fingernails and I have toenails. Well, that's a win. You asked me, I mean, pretty basic. In parallel with the brainwave training, I had the Yogananda lessons. So I had the spiritual guidance. I didn't know to avoid onions and garlic. But in like the second week's lesson, you know, from Yogananda here came, okay, you need to begin eliminating onion and garlic and promote to a Jossi chamber. So the progression has been continuous. And now, where I am, I'm at the state of wanting to, I'm looking for the verb help cause make, I'm wanting the state of divine presence to be more continuous in your, in your, in your life, in my life, in my world. Yeah. All right. Well, that's a goal. And so how often do you do two nubs? Well, it varies. I mean, there are times where I'll do seven days in a row. Still like a full training. So this is a description of what happened to me on day six of my last seven day training at the Alpha seven level. Now in Alpha six, there's no feedback sound unless all eight headsites are making Alpha simultaneously. So it's a way in Alpha four, you have to have four headsites. In Alpha five, you have to have six. And in Alpha six, you have to have all the whole head has to be an Alpha or it's quiet. Okay, one of the hallmarks of Alpha four, five, and especially Alpha six is the vast emptiness and stillness that is experienced when so many headsites, so many brain locations are joining together simultaneously in a chorus of beautiful Alpha music. There are layers of consciousness experience in this state. At one level, you experience that there is the body with its itches and twitches and urges. And another level is the mind, which is usually filled with thoughts, feelings, and emotions. But then there are those moments where there is stillness when the thoughts are absent and the feelings and emotions are gone and there are not even memories. And then there is a vastness. It's like when a foggy window clears when your mind clears in this way. Then the consciousness that pervades the universe is encountered and engaged. And there's a connection emerging with even an immersion in that vastness of undifferentiated awareness. Some might call this God. Sometimes there's also present another level of awareness, an awareness that there is a body and that there is a mind and that these are now quiescent, totally still. And what is occurring is an immersion in the one, in the all. And then there is an awareness of being transcendental, healed and of somehow being prepared for higher purposes and for being of service beyond what is known or even beyond what is knowable. Pretty powerful. Something to aim for. So Dr. Hart, I mean clearly you in your work, in your life, in your mission, in your vocation have achieved really beautiful things and have made it your life's work to share it with as many people as possible. So thank you for that. Thank you for all that you do. It's my honor. My pleasure. And having had the pleasure, I don't know that I thought it was a pleasure at the time, but having had the pleasure of spending seven days in the chamber. And it's not that it wasn't a pleasure, it's that it's a process and it's a dear process. And it takes time and energy and it's quite something. It's a journey and it's really only, you know, when you've only done it once, it's only the beginning of your journey. But to see your commitment to the journey and your commitment to bringing others along in the journey is really quite something. So for anybody who's curious about Biocybernaut training, would you like to tell them? First of all, tell them about your book because you have a book people can read that I think would be a fabulous follow up to the podcast called The Art of Smart Thinking by James Hart, PhD. I highly recommend it because that'll give you a really good sense of a lot of what we've been talking about today and so much more. And then if they want to learn about Biocybernaut and maybe think they might want to devote a week of their life to elevating their consciousness, their creativity, their EQ, their IQ and all the other things, where would they go? What would they do? Well, you can actually get it for your read for your listeners, you get a free copy of the book, PDF by going to the Biocybernaut website, which is www.biosybernaut.com, B-I-O-C-Y-B-E-R-N-A-U-T.com, and then do a slash and the word bonus. Okay. And you can download a free PDF copy. Beautiful. And then at biosebrenut.com, period, biosebrenut.com, is where they can inquire about maybe... There's also copies of some of my scientific papers. There's videos that I made and so before Michael Jackson came for training, he told me when we first met that he had watched all the videos I had at that time. He said he watched every one 25 times to get into it before, to merge with it before coming. He actually wrote three songs when he was in the Alpha chamber at Biosybernaut. Wow, bet he did. Then many after he left. So there's a 1-800 number, there's the website, and there's the book. And then there's maybe some meditation in the absence of garlic and onions. Yes. And caffeine. Well, we need to put alcohol on that list too, because alcohol suppresses health. And alcohol for sure. I would think drugs don't do much for it either. Well, it depends on the drug. For example, in 1962, months before LSD was made illegal in the state of California, Barbara Brown, an early biofeedback researcher, gave LSD to college students legally and measured their brainwives. And some, the Alpha went way up and others, the Alpha went way down and it divided on whether they were visualizers or not. Because if you're visualizing even with your eyes closed, that's going to suppress Alpha just like looking at things with your eyes open. So the visuals are the enemy. The enemy of Alpha is visuals. Yes. Clear the mind. Thank you so much. Thank you, Natalie. Wonderful to hang out with you again. Thank you. Bless you. And all you do. Hey, folks, just a quick reminder that all of the information presented in this podcast is for information purposes only. No medical advice, no diagnosing, no treatments suggested here. Before you try anything that you hear about or learn about here, make sure that you check with your medical provider.