Does It Really Matter How HOT Your Sauna Gets, Should You Use Your Phone In A Sauna, What Kind of Sauna Ben Greenfield Uses & More With Connie Zack

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life podcast. How hot should your sauna get? What kind of sauna do I use? Should you use your phone in the sauna? Should you put red lights in your dry sauna? A whole lot more in today's sauna super-sode with Connie, Zach. All the show notes of this one are Ben Greenfield Life forward slash sun lighten podcast. Here we go. Welcome to The Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. All right, so quick question. Do you ever wake up tired, even after a full night of sleep? And that's often not a sleep problem. It's a cellular energy problem because your cells are supposed to repair and recover while you're asleep. That sometimes doesn't happen due to declining levels of NAD+. 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And I think as a result, there are a lot of questions that I get, a lot of people get about saunas, like dry versus steam versus infrared versus the kind of lights versus, you know, EMF. And of course, the ever important question, do you wear the sauna hat or don't you wear the sauna hat? I have been, I'm going to say for like a long time before they became trendy, a fan of these infrared saunas. And don't get me wrong. Like I've toured Finland. I've done like the whole Finland sauna society, you know, traditional dry sauna where everybody's naked and whipping each other with birch branches and oak. and I am also, of course, a fan of these more techie infrared devices and have been for a while. I'm in mine anywhere from three to five times a week. You've probably seen me on Instagram doing yoga and sometimes hoisting a kettlebell in there. Not as crazy as Laird Hamilton. I haven't brought my aerosalt bike in there, but I get all these questions and I wanted to get the person who is responsible for co-founding the company that makes the sauna I use on the podcast to answer some of my dumb questions. Her name is Connie Zak. She is the co-founder of Sunlighten. And Sunlighten is kind of considered to be one of the global leaders in full spectrum, low EMF infrared saunas. If you don't know what those terms mean, don't worry. We'll get there. And Connie, I think, at least from what I understand, you started off in like the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, I can't believe that. It's, you know, especially doing what I do today, which is so focused on functional medicine and just completely different than pharma. It's so, what a shift, right? Yeah, started off at Procter & Gamble in the pharmaceutical industry. I loved my job. I loved what I did because I felt that I was making a difference. I was helping people. I worked with the gastrointestinal field, the cardiovascular field. And I mean, my goal was to try and help people feel better and live better as a result of what I did. I just didn't realize I was just doing it with a Band-Aid approach at the time. Yeah, yeah. You're one of the big bad pharma people. Did you ever get that? Hey, I'm nice. I saw the light literally and figuratively. Yeah, I've gotten a lot of benefit from a lot of different pharmaceuticals, but there's certainly a nuanced discussion there. But where did the sauna thing come in? Yeah, so while I was working at P&G at the time I was in St. Louis, and my brother was extremely, extremely ill. And his story is so similar to so many people who we have helped over the years. But what happened to him is he had heavy metal toxicity, but he didn't know he had that until he went to his dentist. And his dentist said, you know what, Jason, I think what's causing all this mess that you're trying to cure is your mercury amalgam fillings in your mouth. I think that's the culprit of this sickness that had been happening for years. And he traveled to doctors. He tried everything. He spent every dime he had. He couldn't work. It was horrible. It was really, I mean, when you watch somebody you love go through, and he was so young, just become debilitated. It was a really, and I was in pharma, so, you know, I mean, I knew so much. But there's nothing I knew in pharmaceuticals that was able to help my brother until the dentist said, I have heard about a technology called infrared, and it could potentially detoxify the body safely and naturally in the comfort of your own home. You should do some research. And my brother did. He bought an infrared sauna and it changed his life. And then I started doing research myself. You know, I had at that time significant access. You know, now the world, everybody has access to everything. But at the time, you know, this was back in the 90s. I mean, this is a long time ago. I had access to medical information. I know, forever ago. And so I started doing research on infrared. And then what I still think about today is, you know, people always talk about, oh, is there not as much research on infrared, blah, blah, blah. Like, you guys, this research has been out there for almost 30 years. It's just there wasn't a pharmaceutical company and there wasn't enough commercial activity to lift it up and elevate it and bring it, you know, to the forefront, which is what I decided to do, you know, with my life. and Aaron as well, who you know you've met, who is my business partner and husband. And we decided to, he was also working at P&G doing pharma and we both decided to leave our corporate jobs and put all of our money and like anything we had, our cars, we mortgaged our cars, we mortgaged our home, we had the business in our basement. You know, we, I mean, we just took every shortcut we could in order for us to be able to figure out ways to put money into the business to bring us, you know, sunlight into market. So that's what we've done. And that was over 25 years ago. It's crazy. Wow. You actually like just brought up one of my burning questions, this whole research thing. Yeah. Because, you know, I don't want to, I don't think this is throwing people under the bus, but I'm just going to say a name right now. So for example, I think Rhonda Patrick is one person who has said, we'll stick to the dry sauna because there's no or scant research on infrared when we talk about, you know, a lot of conditions that someone might use a dry sauna for, like dementia or Alzheimer's or, you know, production of heat shock proteins or anything like that. And I think a lot of people think that is the case. Now, Rhonda is super smart. She's been on the podcast. I like her, but I don't know if she's misinformed on this. It sounds like she might be. Yeah, there's, And I like Rhonda too. I mean, she's awesome. You can't not like Rhonda. She's great. And she's extremely knowledgeable, especially knowledgeable when it comes to traditional high heat saunas. The reality is infrared. I mean, this is before I started the company. So this is a long time ago. There was plenty of data and statistically significant data, especially at that time on the cardiovascular side. And I was working with our company at the time to try and bring antihypertensives, which is blood pressure medication, to market without side effects. And here, the research that has already been done showed significant improvements in your cardiovascular health and your cardiovascular functions, such as increasing the elasticity, changing the endothelial function, helping to lower triglycerides, statistically significantly lowering blood pressure. I mean, all these significant benefits 20-some years ago that were out there, it's just people weren't bringing them to market. So when we started the company, we decided to start doing like to take our science background and put it into infrared. So like one of the first things we did is measured core temperature, which is funny because now today we can talk about this. There are so many conditions that we know definitively are positively impacted when you increase the body's core temperature. Back 20 years ago, nobody, you know, when I would talk about increasing core temperature, people were like, why would I want to do that? You know, that sounds miserable. But we did that. Sunlighten did that back in the basement. So we, you know, did a trial on increasing the body's core temperature. And then probably one of the most powerful trials. And the thing that's significant is we did this with our own product, a product that you're very familiar with, the Sunlighten Solo, which had the first carbon heaters on the market. And the benefit of carbon at that time is you were able to harness the power of infrared at a more dense way, say in another way, we were able to deliver the highest quantity and quality of infrared into the body. And we patented that. So now we're protected. So there's no other product that has more infrared, no other product that emits more infrared into the body than sunlight. I didn't realize that. And by the way, and I want to hear more about the infrared and the way that you've maximized it in the sauna. When you're talking about the heart, this has come up multiple times on the show. For example, when I interviewed Stephen Hussey, the author of Understanding the Heart, came up with Dr. Tom Cowan. It's come up on several podcasts related to light. when you're talking about cardiovascular health, I think people are aware that something like short-term heat stress could cause like a long-term hormetic effect that results in things like increases in blood volume and erythropoietin and generally a little bit higher cardiovascular fitness, even in the absence of working out. But what's come up on some of these podcasts is that beyond the heat, the actual photon packets of light structure the water within the vasculature in such a manner that you actually get a smoother flow, better absorption of nitric oxide, like a lot of factors that go beyond just the heat and are instead kind of a consequence of the heat-light combination. Yeah, exactly. In fact, you bring up a really good point. So, you know, we're talking about, you know, Dr. Patrick's information that she shares on traditional saunas. Well, something that is very unique and specific to infrared alone is the fact that it is a spectrum of heat within the sun spectrum that contains both heat and light. You cannot get that with just hot air. You do not get the benefit of the photon, you know, the photon neuroprotection that a lot of the benefits that you get from near infrared and red light therapy, which is part of that infrared spectrum. So the most powerful way to deliver infrared is to be able to separate all of the four wavelengths and then maximize the output into the body. And then you cover the entire body. And you are going to not only have the most effective longevity hack you can have, but you're also going to focus specifically on every single system. You cover like the traditional sauna, it has significant benefit as far as the heat stress. But when you also have heat stress with light penetration into the cells and decrease inflammation and impact your mitochondria, I mean, that is like, I mean, it's just so powerful. And that's what infrared does. And that's one of the differences between infrared and traditional heat. Yeah, I probably should have brought that up. But it's not just, I mean, really, it's the lesser known piece is the water structuring that occurs. The, I think, more commonly known piece is what you mentioned with the mitochondria, the absorption on, I believe it's cytochrome C oxidase in the mitochondria for upregulated ATP production. You know, a lot of people now are even talking about the old, you know, methylene blue trick. I don't know if you've tried this, Connie, but you actually take methylene blue to enhance the absorption of that light in the mitochondria and then turn out even more ATP. I actually combine methylene blue and infrared quite frequently. I don't know if you've tried that before. I haven't tried that. I find that when I sit inside my sauna, my impulse, I have the impulse, which is behind me, which has far infrared, mid infrared, near infrared and red light. And I find that the impact on my brain and body when it comes to ATP and energy is already so powerful. I mean, it is like literally a reset button that allows me to recharge, recover, restore. And I come out just, I mean, I'm just so charged. I always say infrared supercharges your cells. And I never really understood with the water piece until I started to get deeper into it. And I met with Dr. Bland and met with Dr. Hamlin. And they started to help me understand the impact of infrared on your water molecules. And the change, the way it changes the structure, and it doesn't break any bonds, which Dr. Blind says is really important, but it does significantly start to increase flow. And that increased flow starts to increase oxygen and blood flow, cardiovascular output, as well as increased production of ATP. And it essentially sets off this biochemical cascade that starts to positively impact every single system in our body. And that is different than traditional heat. Yeah, and it's especially most beneficial if you're going in in a well-hydrated, well-mineralized state. So bookmark that, folks. If you want the most out of the light, you don't have to do the methylene blue thing, but definitely be hydrated and have a lot of minerals because that will help with that water structuring that Connie's talking about. You, a few minutes ago, said something like when you separate all four wavelengths of light, what do you mean by that? Yeah, so that's an advantage of infrared over just regular heat as well is each wavelength then has its own unique healing properties. Hey, Ben Greenfield here, 6 a.m. in the morning, standing underneath the red lights in my office. But I must tell you about today's sponsor, Manu Kora Honey, because while I'm getting a lot of antioxidant and oxidant support from red light, Manu Kora Honey does it with honey. And this is the richest, creamiest, most delicious honey you've ever had, ethically produced by, and you can't make this stuff up, folks, Manu Kora's master beekeepers in the remote forests of New Zealand. 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A little bit of a tongue twister there. Try Joy Mode. Say that 10 times fast. Tryjoymode.com slash greenfield or enter code greenfield at checkout for 20% off of what is basically the electrolyte packet for your dick. Enjoy. Each wavelength then has its own unique healing properties, but you have to have the right quantity, the right amount, and you have to have the right, the precision of the wavelength because the way the wavelength works with your body and the absorption of the, into the cells, it needs to be precise. Otherwise it bounces off and it's not absorbed and it's worthless. So what we started to do, gosh, this was back in 2008, before we were on Oprah in 2009. We started investigating the entire spectrum and how can you take the spectrum and separate it out and find ways to deliver mid-infrareds separate than far-infrared. Because what happens, Ben, is if you, let's just use the word water, if you water down far infrared, then you're not getting the high enough quantity to get the absorption, to start off that biochemical cascade, to affect longevity, to affect sleep, to affect mental health. like all the different benefits that we know you get from infrared, all the science that's already out there. It's ideal if you can separate them so that you can target what you're looking for, right? Because people will ask me, what happens if I want to do this? It's like, well, far infrared is good for that. You know, and for skin, for example, you know, near infrared and red light. Oh, my goodness. They're so beneficial. They penetrate the skin and help to immediately, immediately start to boost collagen, boost elastin, and start to repair the skin and start to accelerate cell turnover. So it's important that you can separate those wavelengths from the heat infrared, right? If you blend it all, it's like anything that you blend, you don't know what's doing what. Interesting. So this is why, I was actually waiting for this podcast to ask you this and not bug you beforehand. This is why if I go in the sunlight and I press the on button, there's like programs to choose from, you know, like whatever, detox, recoveries, I forget what all the settings are, you could probably clarify. But I'm assuming, so what you're doing is combining different wavelengths, like turning up, turning down, almost like a DJ on the wavelengths? Yeah, DJ is perfect. It's the whole fine-tuning and precision. For example, I mentioned one of my favorite programs, which is the anti-aging, one that's focusing specifically on skin repair. So this is one where we left out mid-infrared. And when you said, why would you leave out mid-infrared? Well, mid-infrared is a shorter wavelength. So I'm going to go really quickly over the four, just kind of how they're, where they're absorbed. So far is absorbed the deepest. We talked about the changes in the water structure and the water molecules is absorbed the deepest. And it also impacts and absorbs into the mitochondria. It starts to increase your core temperature, set off that biochemical cascade. We already talked about with all the different systems. Mid-infrared is a shorter wavelength and you feel it more in hotter heat. Its beauty is it's a synergistic effect to far infrared. So next to mid-infrared is near-infrared, which is completely invisible. And I'd love to chat about that for a little bit because there's so much attention on red light, which I love. But near-infrared actually penetrates the most and is the most therapeutic out of the two. But it's invisible, so people are like, I can't see it. I know. The first time I got a near-infrared helmet, I was like, this thing's broken. It's not—I can't see anything. Right. We get that. I mean, when we launched Impulse, you know, forever ago, back in 2011, everybody would like, wait a second, those LEDs that you guys are talking about, they're not on. I don't see anything. It's like, well, that's the purpose. They're invisible because they're past the visible part of the light spectrum. But having it past the visible part of the light spectrum, it's what makes them so special and powerful and provide the deepest impact on the skin. So back to the benefit of separating them out and the science behind the programs is what we've done is use science on what's the right frequency of near-infrared? What's the right frequency of red light? What's the right frequency of far infrared? And then combine them all together at the right intervals, pulsate them, like literally that's why the product's called Impulse, pulsate them at the right frequency and the right quantity so that you get the optimal results. So it's all about efficiency. And then we put it into a program. And the reason I use the skin, because it's easy for people to understand that you don't want heat stress on your skin. So which is why we eliminated the mid-infrared. So in that program, it's far-infrared to purify the body from the inside out, to detoxify the body so you're going to get that purging, and then near-infrared to turn the cells over and boost the collagen and boost the elacin for younger-looking skin, and then red light, which does the same thing, but it is not penetrating as deep. But when you combine the two, you get a more powerful impact. Remind me how many options there are on the dashboard. Do you have anti-infrared skin? Yep, six. There's six programs. There's cardio, which is the most intense. There's detoxification. There's relaxation. There's pain relief also while we're on that topic. And I'm, you know, here giving a chance to share with everybody. That is absolutely one of my favorite programs because coming from pharma and, you know, we talked a lot about non-steroidals and, you know, whole body, you know, as far as with medicine. what's so beautiful about separating the four wavelengths and then allowing that energy to penetrate your cells is you get the significant decrease in inflammation at every part of your body you're not leaving anything out and it's all without drugs it's all safely and naturally just working with the inflammation that's there and bringing it down and calming it down so that you can restore your body back to a normal state. Yeah. Okay, cool. Got a few practical questions here. One, I'll just get out of the way myself because it leads into the second one. So many people have told me, well, it doesn't get hot enough. So I get that you don't need it as hot with the light anyways, but I turn mine on like 30, 40 minutes before I plan to get in there. and I'm usually doing like yoga and moving around in there, et cetera, anyways, my like heart rate is pounding out my eyeballs 30 minutes in. And I know not everybody even wants that effect, but I get super hot in that thing. And I don't understand when people say like you don't get hot enough. So this is, I'm so glad you brought this up because we have been trained to use the feeling of heat slash temperature to evaluate the effectiveness of an experience, specifically a sauna. Because that's, you know, when you went to a gym, you'd walk inside of the, you know, traditional sauna. You're like, oh, what temperature is? Oh, it's 170 degrees or 180 degrees. Oh, I'm really hot. That's just what people are familiar with. So infrared is completely different. And if I can help clarify one thing here today, really probably one of the most important things to understand the impact of this energy into our body and ourselves is it is not about temperature and it is not about feeling excessively hot. When you feel excessively hot with the air, that's a traditional sauna. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're looking to get the abundance of benefits with both heat stress, infrared heat, and light energy, you need to be comfortable with the fact that the energy is absorbing into the body, not the air. What makes infrared different than traditional is traditional heats the air. You get hot because the air is hot. Infrared bypasses the air. And it works directly with the body. So you're getting hot. Like for you with your experience, you're like, I am hot. You are hot because the energy is heating your body. It's increasing your core. As I said, one of the first things we did with our company is evaluated, does this increase your core? Because it was a lower temperature. And we found that in only 30 minutes, you can increase your core by up to three degrees, which is amazing. It's amazing. So you're getting the benefits, and it doesn't have to be this excessive heat. In fact, I may, like, blow your mind here. Ben, for a second, it's kind of hard to blow your mind, but maybe somebody else is listening. Don't tell on it. Is Dr. Hamlin, he blew my mind when he showed us to me years and years ago. And for those of you who don't know Dr. Hamlin, who he is, he's on our medical advisory board, but that's not really what's important. And what's important is he is the world-leading expert on infrared. Well, Michael Hammer on photobiomodulation in general, like last I checked hundreds, if not thousands, of PubMed references if you search for his name on PubMed. Correct. He has written, I have it in my office, one in my office and one at home, and it is this thick. It's called a handbook. It's not a handbook. It is a massive, massive textbook. book. And it is all of the benefits and all of the studies on photobiomodulation, which is a technical term for the benefits of near-infrared and red light therapy on the body. And it covers everything extensive. And he's the person that studied it, authored it. So we're fortunate enough to be able to work to him and have access to him to ask him questions when I get thrown a loop. And I kept getting asked this question of, you know, like, what is the right time to get in? What is the right temperature? What is the right this? What is the right that? And when I talked to him, this is so long ago, he said, Connie, if you can remember one thing, remember that this is an energy. It is an energy of light. Because remember, infrared actually is light. All four are light, but then you feel far and mid by heat. And then the other two stay in the light because they're delivered by LEDs. And he's like, this is light energy that the body is absorbing. And so it's like any light, like a light bulb, you turn that on, it is on the moment you turn it off. There is an on and an off. It is not about temperature. It is not about waiting In fact, the longer you wait, the shorter the wavelengths of energy are going to be, because that's scientifically what happens when you look at infrared wavelengths. As soon as you turn it on, it's the longest and smoothest. And so the bodily, the body, the body most easily absorbs that wavelength, and you get this immediate impact right when you turn it on. So that's, you know, a lot of people prefer, let's just call it a personal preference. They prefer when they get in to have a heated environment. And that's fine. And if that's, this is all about personalized medicine. And I am one of those people, by the way, I think I'm jaded from years of heat training for Ironman triathlon. I, yeah, like, I don't. No, that's how you prefer. I remember when I met you. That was one of the things you shared. You're like, I like it hot. I'm like, that's great. We can provide that heated experience. And so there's no right or wrong in that. It's how it works with the body and understanding that, understanding your body, understanding how your body reacts. Because really the fittest athletes, what I learned over the years, is the fitter you are, the faster you're going to sweat, the faster you're going to feel heat. The faster everything because your body is so acclimated and it's very, very fit. So those individuals that aren't as fit, it is more important. Like people like my brother who had heavy metal toxicity, people who have Lyme, people who are trying to turn back the biological clock, like all those things, they really need to they should take it at a lower temperature to get the optimal absorption And then over time if they want to have a hotter experience then you know they can do that Or they can take it start at a lower start when you turn it on and then you can stay in longer if you want. Because it's so easy to stay in. It's not like you're just feeling, oh, my God, I'm going to die in here because it's very gentle. Yeah, you're not like counting to 100 over and over again. Right, exactly. It's not like you're doing breath work or anything like that. You're enjoying yourself. Which I do sometimes. And I wanted to ask you this. You know, I exercise in there. I'll do some pretty hefty, hard breath work. Like I mentioned, I haven't dragged a bike in there yet, but it wouldn't be beyond me. But then some people will say that for the detoxification effect, you want to be in a more parasympathetic state. And you may just want to be sitting there and relaxing or lying down. Is there something to that? Yes, I think there is. So there's two points I want to say to that. So I'll say the first one is it's important for people to know, and I'm sure they know this, but it's just an important reminder that when your body is detoxing it, there's many different pathways that the body can detox. A lot of you have been asking me about this necklace that I wear, this shiny gold cool-looking necklace. It's not just jewelry. As a matter of fact, it's a necklace that was designed to help when you're around electronic devices. The way that it works is it transforms a lot of these frequencies that can be harmful to your body to match your own biological energy, which I know sounds a little bit weird and out there. But I did a long podcast with folks who designed this thing, Ares Tech. 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And essentially, it is a transformer. transformer it's got a little silicone resonator chip and antenna in it that they etch with this top-of-the-line micro lithography equipment and it's this proven five-layer system that can transform the emfs emitted by your electronic devices to keep you safe from harm they're going to give all of my listeners a 30 discount and again there's several different versions small to large i like the one that you can wear around your neck just because i'm not a big jewelry guy It's one of the few pieces of jewelry I own that I like. So Aries Tech is offering a 30% discount to all my listeners at AriesTech.com slash Ben with code Ben30. That's A-I-R-E-S-T-E-C-H.com slash Ben and use code Ben30. All right. So this is super cool. I've been working on something behind the scenes that I know is going to totally change the game in the whole, drumroll please, energy bar industry. 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So if you want to, you know, exercise and do things while you're in there, that's, again, a personal preference. So the second piece that then really probably the one, you know, I'm super passionate about, and we work with Dr. Mindy and she's super passionate about this as well is, you know, there's not a lot of things. there's not a lot of modalities that can so quickly take the body from that fight or flight sympathetic state where your autonomic nervous system is overcharged into the rest and digest, you know, parasympathetic state. And at the parasympathetic state, your body is more open and acceptable to start healing and detoxifying. and letting go of all of those stress hormones and, you know, they bring the cortisol down and you're starting to release the dopamine and serotonin, like all the happy chemicals. And that happens more at rest than it does, you know, at an active cardiovascular, you know, state. So I would always encourage people, if you're looking to really optimize your detoxification and you really want to make sure, First of all, we have a detoxification program. So that would be the one I would recommend. And then second, I am a huge habit stacker inside my sauna where my habits are all on the autonomic nervous system, parasympathetic state. So I like to go in, meditate, deep breathe, because I'm always running. Like I said, I'm always going, going, going, going, going. I have two kids, a business. And I want, that's my time to recharge and allow myself to, you know, help. Really, I'm looking at it as it's benefiting my nervous system. And there's a study, since we talked originally at the top of this about studies, there is a great study that I'd love to share about the improvement of your autonomic nervous system and taking the body from the sympathetic state to the parasympathetic state by using infrared as well as increasing the cardiac function. And it's a powerful study. It was done a long time ago, and it was measured by evaluating all of the biomarkers of heart rate variability. So that's pretty powerful and great to know if you are one of those, you know, C-level people, C-level meaning like a CEO, you know, you're like CFO, like you're just, you have all this burden and all this weight where you're trying so hard to, you know, carry the company or whatever you're doing or, you know, you're training for something. You know, you do need to recover and have time, you know, to have your body heal and reset. But don't bring your phone in there. People call me from their saunas. And I feel like I looked into this years ago, and now I'm forgetting. And you might know this. The impact of a high-temperature environment, and you already clarified, like it's not as high as a dry sauna, but it's a higher temperature. And EMF, like having radio frequencies or EMFs bouncing around inside the sauna of combined with heat. Is that a bigger issue than at ambient temperatures like normal time? So as far as EMF, we, this is an area, gosh, we have studied and researched since the basement. And when I talk about basement, that's when we started. It's just such a visual memory in my head because it was so stressful. We had no money. And it was like literally minute by minute, are we going to be able to survive? And, but one of the very first things we did in the basement is make sure at that time we weren't manufacturing, we weren't in charge of our own destiny. You know, we were working with other companies and we wanted to make sure that the wires, you know, were still coded at the time. That was the only really way you could do it to decrease any type of, you know, frequency that was delivered. So that's how we started. And then every year, especially when we start to innovate and we went from having one type of heater to bringing the solo carbon heaters to market. And that, whenever you make a change like that, then you have a risk, you know, with increased EMF. And so essentially the bottom line is, to cut to the 2026 story, is we have twisted the wires. We now use DC versus AC. We have shielding. We have taken every single step so that our saunas, all of our saunas are either non-existent or virtually like nothing in EMF so you can feel completely safe. And furthermore, Ben, I do want to mention this because I know you're a big science and testing and proof guy. And we had a company come out, an independent company visit us right after COVID and test all the saunas with their, you know, their equipment. And then we published the test. So it's not our testing, it's their testing. Good. So you're not microwaving yourself, but also don't defeat the purpose and bring your phone in there. That's my advice. Yeah, I think it's real, you know, back to the getting yourself, you know, shoulders down and just the brain recharged. I mean, here's my narrative that I tell myself is because typically I go in there and I start thinking and I'm like, OK, Connie, timeout. That's what you do every other hour, every other minute. Just breathe and relax. Meditate. A lot of times I'll just think through my, what are my intentions for the day? What do I want? How do I want this day to unfold? And I just start to think through like, how do I want to feel? How do I want to behave? What are the role? What's the role modeling I want to exhibit? Just all of those kinds of questions. And it just puts me in this beautiful state. And I am focusing on, I want this energy. I always call it infrared energy medicine. I want this energy medicine to be able to penetrate and be absorbed and maximize its healing into my body so that when I'm finished, I can go out and, you know, and do all the things that I just thought about inside the sauna. So I encourage leaving your phone out. Anything that's going to be distracting, that's going to bounce back and forth, to leave it out and just focus on the electrolytes, the minerals, the water. I have my glass of mineralized water. Yeah, it's your woman cave without the darkness. Okay, so how about that? Yeah, it's all about the light, Ben. No darkness. Why couldn't somebody listening in just say, okay, well, I want the best of both worlds. I've got a dry sauna. Could I get some kind of a red light set up that's able to resist high temperatures or whatever and just slap some red lights on the wall or the floor or the ceiling of my dry sauna? I would say to that person, if you want to have a high-level heat, but you also want infrared, then there's nothing wrong with separating the two. I would not combine the two, because when you do that, then you start to decrease the effectiveness of infrared. And infrared is such a specific energy wavelength with the way it interacts with your cells and your systems, you don't want to do anything that's going to compromise the integrity of that delivery system. So leave it alone. Let infrared do its thing. Either get, you know, the impulse, which has all four, but you don't have to. You can start with the Solo. Solo is, I mean, oh my gosh, that's such a go-to product, which has far infrared. You can lie down in it, get the energy. Yeah, you mean when you say the solar, you mean it's like a tube that you slide into? Yeah, it's a modular unit. That's the one. So that's the one that the core temperature study was done on that showed the increase in core temperature. It's also the one that UMKC, University of Missouri, Kansas City, did a health benefit study with that product back in 2005 on all health benefits. And it showed a statistical significant reduction in blood pressure. So when you say there's no science, there's tons of science. and this was done with that particular product. It is extremely effective. It has, again, the highest quantity of infrared. It does not have near-infrared and red light, but that's okay. If you want to get like the biggest bang for your buck and you want to separate things out, then you can buy everything in separate pieces, and that's fine too. But I wouldn't lower the integrity of infrared by trying to combine it with high-level heat. Yeah, if I was an overachiever, I'd have the study pulled up in front of me. But I think it was a guy who has a podcast about like methylene blue and light and stuff, Mike Bukowski. I used his toothbrush. It's like the BioLite toothbrush or something like that. And he interviewed someone who was speaking to the decrease in light absorption that occurs when you reach a certain temperature marker. And it was certainly below that 200 mark that a lot of dry saunas get up to. You know, typical dry sauna, you're looking at 170 to 230 on some of them. And that there's actually a correlation between decreased light absorption as temperature reaches a certain threshold and continues to go up. Yeah, I completely believe that because we know there's other studies. is it's not about intensity anymore. I mean, it used to be people would, it's all about intensity. It is not about intense heat. It's not about intensity with any really modality. It's about consistence use. So it's consistency beats intensity every day of the week and consistent use and even shorter intervals is okay. You don't have to be in there for an hour and a half either. So I do think there's a connection between intense heat counteracting the benefits of near-infrared and red light. And one of the reasons that our programs have done so well and the way we developed the programs back in 2008 was making sure that the heat aspect never got too hot. And cardio is the hottest program out of the four of them or six of them. But that not even you know I don think it even gets above at its height it does not get above probably 145 maybe 150 degree Fahrenheit Yeah But with photobiomodulation I know that it highly depends on the power the distance from the device et cetera There is a law of diminishing returns in terms of reactive oxygen species production because you are turning up mitochondrial ATP production. I've seen values ranging from 15 minutes up to 35 minutes as far as the number of minutes not to exceed with light therapy. And again, I'm pretty sure that a lot of these observations were with panels and beds. I know you're a little farther when you're inside the sauna in most cases, but have you guys ever looked into the sweet spot or even created a message about how long becomes too long to spend in your sauna? Yeah, the great question. And that's what we did when we developed Impulse the first time is we, it was all about the sweet spot. And that was what we took into consideration when we developed the six preset programs is what is the sweet spot? And so you'll notice that when using different programs, there's cardio and detox and pain relief, relaxation, weight loss. That was the one I didn't mention before, weight loss. when using those, there's times if you're really paying attention, you can feel the intensity back off. And visually, you will also see the red light, which is connected, which also is connected to the near-in front, but you can't see it because it's invisible. You'll see that turn off. Oh, yeah. Because exactly what you're saying, there's a maximum, they're called jewels of energy. You know, if you're sitting in front of a red light or near infrared panel, your body can only absorb so much. And after that, it's a waste of time and money and, you know, energy. And that's what we worked so diligently on years ago on the six programs. And that's the value of those programs. Now, back here in 2024 is when we started, or maybe 2023, we started taking new studies because those are six programs. And then we started looking at sleep and muscle recovery in some other areas and looking specifically at the near-infrared and red light. And so we developed programs at three different levels that we have an app for that are connected to our red light therapy panel. So it is a panel of light that you can use in your home. And when you get the panel of light, it has a combination at the most powerful frequencies of near infrared and red light. So if you want something separate, like you want to do the solo and then you want the red light therapy panel with the near infrared, you can separate it out. And then what's so awesome, I don't have my phone on me, but I could show you, I love it so much our app and you go in and in each program, there's three different levels. So for example, skincare, you know, I go and I do the advanced, but if you want, you can start off with beginner and then there's intermediate and then there's advanced. And we have listed in there exactly the distance that you need to be from the panel. So, you know, so I will sit there and I will mark off and measure, you know, I have my, in my bedroom, I have like a little like, kind of, you know, when you have the, you stand on stage, you have a star. So I have like a star that like tells me exactly where I need to be. And then you turn on the program and you stay there and you take the program and it tells you everything. Like it is so easy. And what I love about that panel too, is it 10, 10 minutes, right? I mean, it literally, that particular program that I use all the time is 10 minutes and you're done. It's so awesome. I didn't know you guys had that. That's super cool. And by the way, for those of you listening, I will link to all this stuff because we have like discount codes and stuff for Sunlighten. If you go to bengreenfieldlife.com forward slash Sunlighten podcast. bengreenfieldlife.com slash Sunlighten podcast. Okay, so this is a question I get that I feel like I should have thought about before I got these questions myself, but the detox component. So let's say you're sweating out heavy metals, for example. They got to go somewhere. Like, should you be wiping down the sauna before you like sit back in your sweat or whatever particles are in the wood that get, I don't know, reabsorbed transdermally or something like that? you should definitely put we have at sunlight and so many different materials and so many different covers and and highly recommend that you put um a a ideally it's like an infrared you know salient fiber on the bench so that it's super absorbent because you don't you definitely don't want to, I can't imagine, you don't want to sit on the bench without protection. So, and then I always have a, just a small little salient face towel just to, because that's where I am. I'm like sweating here and, you know, and then like my gut and, and yeah, just towel off. I like to, to allow my body, because I typically sauna after I have exercised. And so I'm staying in an increased core temperature state. And the longer I do that, the better for my immune system and the better for my mood. Studies back that up, by the way. Like it sucks. Really sucks in a dry sauna. But getting hot or getting exposed to something that increases core temp post-exercise results in an appreciable increase in erythropoietin, which is something your body makes. Also something you may remember from the Lance Armstrong Floyd Landis days as something they would illegally inject to get new red blood cells. But it is a pretty handy cardiovascular hack. And then, you know, you can go in there in the heat and eventually just kind of lay down for a few minutes and get back into a parasympathetic state. But actually going in the sauna and moving around a little bit post-workout is, it's a cool tool for cardiovascular athletes. Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, so I don't jump in. Sometimes people will jump in the shower right away. I wait a little bit because I just want that prolonged effect. You mean the prolonged heat effect? Yes. Yeah, yeah. So when it comes to heavy metals, I think that one has been shown to be something that occurs, the detoxification of them in the sauna. But of course, as you know, everybody's talking about microplastics. And, you know, Brian Johnson, I know as an N equals one, showed decreased microplastics. I don't know if he was doing salivary or urine. I doubt he was doing blood after a series of sauna treatments. Have you guys looked into that or have you thought about doing some kind of an internal study or anything like that on microplastics? I think it's important, compelling information to provide. Um, I, we lean right now heavily on the BUS study. I don't know if you've seen that, but that's the blood urine sweat study that was done by Dr. Januas. And he did it because he wanted to find ways to protect women who, as they want, as they went on their journey to become pregnant with all of the toxins that are in the environment. He wanted to see how can we remove these toxins before they conceive. And this was a study that showed the power of infrared over exercise and traditional saunas. And there were a lot of toxicants in that study that were removed by blood, urine, and sweat. but the thing that's most powerful on it is that even if you're testing your blood and you don't, like for example in this study, that they tested blood with X number of people and showed no detectable levels of mercury, but then they took that same subset and tested their sweat and such a large amount of people had mercury in their sweat And if they hadn't tested their sweat, they may have been thinking like, oh, I'm clean. I'm in the clear. So, you know, it's important that we look at our whole body. You know, it's blood, it's urine, it's sweat. It's more complex if we really want to address this toxic overload that we are exposed to every single day. We're exposed to 700,000 chemicals. I mean, it's just, it's absolutely, it's crazy. Somebody needs to do the comprehensive infrared sauna microplastic study. I know, I don't know how it compares to blood, but there's a couple of different places that do salivary, like a home salivary microplastic test kit that I suppose folks could kind of use as an N equals one, right? Like test, be really rigorous on your sauna practice for 30 days or whatever, and then test again. So I think we need more data on the microplastics piece. Yeah, I think it would be amazing. Yeah. So you mentioned the Solo, which is the tube that you climb inside. The Impulse, the big one I have, I mean, I could squeeze eight people in there. I think it's advertised like a four to six person. I like the big ones just because I can move around, which we've established. But walk people through just so they know what the options are for their home or office or clinic or whatever. Yeah, so we'll start again with the Solo, which is the smallest. It's a one-person lie-down, telescopic in nature. So lower dome fits into the upper dome, 67 pounds, goes anywhere, super easy, plug and play. Then after that is the Signature Series, which is exactly like the Solo, same technology, far infrared, but in a wooden cabin. So if you want to share that experience with somebody else, the Signature Series is an excellent choice. and then about I don't know five or six years ago we introduced this model called Amplify and we introduced that for the individual that kind of similar to what you talked about earlier that person that wants kind of what they think in their head is the best of both worlds they want an intense heated environment but they also want to get infrared that Amplify has are still are patented quality, far infrared, the highest quantity on the market. And then it combines it with amplification heaters that have full spectrum heaters in front of them. And when I say full spectrum heaters, what I mean by that is you're getting the full infrared spectrum in one place. So that's what I mean by that. So you're getting, so when you're sitting there, if the heater is right here, you're feeling an amplified heat experience. It's going to feel hotter than if you didn't have it. And that's the name Amplify. And so actually we just released what's called Amplify V2, where we changed, this is really cool, we changed the weave in the heating, in the cover of the heaters, so that there's more irradiance, which is how you measure infrared. It's not about temperature, everyone. Remember that it's not about temperature. It's not about when you get in. It's about the quantity of infrared, the quality of infrared and the irradiance. Because what you want is you want to get as much infrared into your body as possible. And that happens with quantity and lower temperature. So we just released that new version, which is fantastic. I mean, if somebody wants that intense feeling of like, oh my God, this is really hot, and they still want the benefits and the experience of infrared, Amplify is a perfect option for them. And then Impulse, which is what you have, it's what I have, it's, I mean, I love it so much because you get something, you can't get anywhere else. You can't get the entire infrared spectrum at the highest frequency, highest quantity separately, yet the ability to combine the wavelengths in those six preset programs. Or the other thing we didn't talk about, Ben, in the programs is there is one more. You strike me as probably somebody who's pressed this button in your sauna. There is one more program, which is the custom. In the custom, you can go in there and do it. You have the option to set the heaters and set it however you want. Right, right. You're just a full-on red light session. There you go. Yeah, sorry, you can do whatever you want. It becomes your oasis. This is my program. This is the Ben Greenfield custom program. This is the drink your methylene blue smoothie and go do jumping jacks with 100% red light function. Well, if you guys want to see what these things look like, go to bengreenfieldlife.com slash sunlightenpodcast, where you can also leave your questions, your comments, your feedback for Connie or I. And these are cool saunas. No, they're not cool. They're not super, super like scalding hot either. They're perfect as we've established. So Connie, thanks so much for doing this. Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's so great to see you. And I mean, you look like amazing as always. And you're so knowledgeable. I love what- Except snowboarding all day yesterday. I will be in the pain sauna later on. The pain- There you go. Yeah. Yeah, it decreases inflammation. You know, both the far infrared and the red light and near infrared. And also we'll put this, I'm sure, in the show notes, but make sure if anybody who's listening, they want more information about sunlight and saunas and they may decide to flip the switch and get one in your home, you're going to save a significant amount of money. But the key is to unlock that discount is you have to mention this podcast. You have to mention Ben Greenfield. Those of you who made it to the end, congratulations. What? I said, for those of you who made it to the end, congratulations. Yes, congratulations. You are now eligible to get a significant discount as well as free shipping. Cool. So just mentioned Ben Greenfield. Awesome. Well, Connie, thank you. And folks, thank you for listening in. Go hunt down some light temperature combo. If you haven't added that to your life, you're missing out. Until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Connie Zach from Sunlightin' Saunas. Signing out. Have an incredible week. 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