1# Hostage Negotiator: Listening Mistakes Costing You Trust, Deals and Influence | R. Mullender

You cannot label people. You have to work them out. Listen really carefully to work out who they are. The whole point of a negotiation is it starts at the very first meeting. And if you and I get on well, then when we come to do the negotiation, it can be very easy. You just say something like, how are you going to sort this out? Once I've built a relationship with them, then I can afford to be a little bit more forceful. Richard Mullender is a world-leading expert in persuasion. For decades, he served as the leading hostage negotiator at Scotland Yard, and he now uses that experience to help people become better at speaking, listening and persuading in everyday contexts, including relationships and the workplace. He's also the author of Communication Secrets of a Hostage Negotiator and founder of the Listening Institute. What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when it comes to negotiations? The first thing I'd say about negotiation is... How can we use negotiation skills at work? So I'm going to a job interview and naturally, if that job interview is important to me, I'm going to be nervous. If you want a really good opening question, that's the opening question. how can we be more persuasive the skill is persuasion the negotiation is persuasion with a compromise there's two models that you want to work off the first one is richard who are you and what is it that you do for a living at the moment i'm a consultant with the listening institute and prior to that i was a police officer for 30 years and the last five years of which I spent as a hostage negotiator and now what I do is I take those skills and I put them into the commercial world. How does one become a hostage negotiator? In the past and still as far as I know you have to be a police officer to work for the government in that way and you get I was the one of the lead trainers for interviewing in Scotland Yard and they called me up and said would you like to be a hostage negotiator and I said well okay how do i do it and they basically said well come on over we'll interview you and it went from there already all right can you share with me and our audience like an interesting story where you needed to negotiate and save a hostager's life well there's a there's a you never quite know what causes what makes the person release the person you never know that it's suddenly they do um so i worked in afghanistan and we were talking and three un workers have been taken hostage um we spent by the best part six weeks um working on it uh a few conversations and in the end they released the three hostages but if you ask me why they released it i would never be able to tell you really yeah it's it's fascinating you kind of think if i do this that will work and it doesn't work every single person you deal with is different and and the first thing i'd say about negotiation is you cannot label people you have to work them out and you have to listen really carefully to work out who they are and what's important to them because once you can do that then you can start to persuade them to come around to your way of thinking but until you do that you're just talking to yourself and what have you learned after this many years in in your line of work about human nature? The biggest thing I've learned is, well, two things. First of all, everyone is different. Everybody's different. And never say they come from Italy, therefore they're going to be like this, because it's just not the way it works. Every single person is different. That's the first thing. And the second thing you must understand is everyone is always right. And if you don't believe me, and if your people listening don't believe me, think of one thing you believe in you know to be wrong. And I'll guarantee you, you can't do it, which means you're always right. The trouble is, if I disagree with you, I'm also right, which means you're wrong. So am I. Okay, let's talk about negotiation because I have a follow-up question about that, but I want to level the playing field and start from a sort of foundational level. Yeah. So in very simple terms, what is negotiation? In very simple terms, negotiation is persuasion with a compromise. That's all it is. If you can persuade somebody, you can negotiate. And who needs to compromise? The compromise is that I'm prepared to give something to you. That's the compromise. And you're prepared to give something to me. That's the negotiation. If I'm not prepared to give you anything, then it's persuasion. What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when it comes to negotiations? They become too formal. They think of it as a negotiation. Don't do it. Be authentic. Be yourself. Use all the tools, by all means, but be yourself. Because the moment you start to talk differently, you'll say stuff like we need to resolve the situation rather than how do we sort this out can you give me an example so perhaps i want to negotiate over that tea that you have and in order for me to get that tea i'm willing to give you this glass of sparkling water okay why should i give you that tea because this is sparkling water would serve you so much better for this conversation it would keep you awake and alert okay so now you tell me what's in it for me you have to tell me what's in it for me why should i do what you want me to do because in the future i'll give you something that you want from me. Okay. What are you going to give me in the future? What is it that you're looking for? There's the negotiation. So how can we make it different in terms of, you said like if it's formal, we're doing it wrong. Because I was thinking I need to negotiate, right? But we need to keep it informal. But look how you started laughing. We started laughing. Okay. It's informal. You get this idea. When I watch business people negotiate, it's quite interesting because going into some of the negotiations with business people, where they sit there and they take their position and they're like this and they're very like, you know, well, what are we going to do about this? And then you cut this nonsense about, you know, hard, good cop, bad cop and all that rubbish. And it's you forgetting who you are. Negotiation. So if you think of it like this, and this is probably the best way of saying it. Negotiation starts at the very first meeting. You and I have been speaking for 15 minutes before we actually started doing this recording. During that conversation, either you like me and you trust me or you don't like me and you don't trust me. And if you didn't like me, you didn't trust me, this conversation would be very different in the same way that it would be very different if I didn't like you. So the whole point of a negotiation is it starts at the very first meeting. And if you and I get on well, then when we come to do the negotiation, it can be very easy to just say something like, how are we going to sort this out? And that's a perfectly good negotiation. What people do is they kind of say, we're going in for the negotiation. Get yourself ready. You're ready. And then you go and it's like a fight. Why are you fighting? and even if the stakes are very high so for example you're negotiating someone's life yeah should you still preserve an informal approach yeah you've got to be yourself because the moment you try to be something else okay let me give you an example um imagine if you went for a job interview i know you don't need to but imagine you go for a job interview and you sit down and you're ready and you're thinking about those questions you're getting asked so i'm doing this interview with you now and i'm thinking carefully how do i answer this question whereas if i was in the pub and having a drink with you it'll be completely different and so what you need to do is to come across as you are be authentic in yourself and just be yourself and relax into that you know and it's you're we negotiate in funny little ways all the time but we don't really negotiate we persuade i think that's where the mistake comes they forget the skill is persuasion the negotiation is persuasion with a compromise i'm prepared to give you something to get what i want if i'm going to persuade you i want i'm going to get what i want there's no there's no option and how can we tap into our inner self so we can come across as as real and authentic well why would you change as in like maybe we are sometimes let's say we take back we go back to that example so i'm going to a job interview and naturally if that job interview is important to me i'm going to be nervous yeah so you're saying that we need to relax we need to be more ourselves how can we accomplish that? Do you have any techniques? Oh, yeah, well, yeah, that's a difficult call, really. If I'm doing a negotiation, so a lot of my work was suicide intervention, so people jumping off bridges, that sort of thing. So most of our work in London is around that side of it. And there's domestic sieges, there are the occasional sort of arm robbery that goes wrong or something like that. But basically, most of our work is around that, crisis negotiation, people in crisis. And I always have an outcome. I know what I'm trying to achieve. so when i talk about listening when we talk about listening to negotiation what you're going to think about is this is that most of that's going to be um you're going to be in a different position so you and i sitting in the pub having a talk is just normal chit chat when i go into a negotiation with someone in crisis i'm now particularly getting into listening but i've got to listen really well but i've got to get this person to like me and if i come across too formal i'm a police officer i'm a hostage negotiator this sort of stuff they're never going to like me and if they don't like me they're not going to talk to me and it's that kind of just relax into it really in the head in my back of my head as i'm listening i'm listening will this help me achieve my outcome that's what it's about i've got an outcome a very clear outcome in mind for this conversation you have a very clear outcome in mind for this conversation you want me to be interesting you want me to come across in a way that's going to keep your listeners interested and at the same time uh give them some help in the future right so that's that's your outcome so you're going to ask me questions that's going to enable you to get to that outcome and you're going to listen for me talking about certain things and you'll pick bits out of that and you'll say right let's go back to that let's have a look at that again and and that's that's what i do as a negotiator you'll say something to me something that's interesting how can i use that to my advantage to get you off the bridge and have you come across like a common sentence that once we use it it kills the negotiation all together no no people are different i think the thing is is that we would you have to be careful about trust and likability you've got to be really careful that's why honesty is always the best policy although it may not feel like it at the time but you need to be honest and you need to tell so someone says to me like um if if you tell me i won't be arrested i'll come out I would never say that you will be arrested yeah you're going to be arrested and they said well I don't I said look you'll never trust me again I'm telling you now that's what's going to happen now whether you go to court whether you get taken to prison completely different thing but you will be arrested so you're honest yeah absolutely yeah you've got you know you just don't tell lies because you get caught out and if you get caught out once you get caught out in a lie trust goes so when you're negotiating you're aiming to build trust by not lying whatsoever i'm aiming to build trust by understanding the person i'm talking to i have to get inside your head that's what i've got to do i've got to get you to trust me enough that you give me your life story and once i've got your life story then i can start to think about what i'm going to do how much does tone of voice matter um tone of voice as well tone of voice is really interesting because tone of voice if you've got someone who has got very um but you get some people go hello my name's and uh and i'm really passionate about football and they're just not you know the tone of voice is just awful to some extent when you when you're negotiating especially in crisis negotiations or you're dealing with well-being and that sort of thing bring it back more into the commercial world if you're dealing with well-being you've got to sound sympathetic my mindset as i approach any negotiation is compassionate and kind always always i can't afford to be anything else if someone's got a gun to their someone's head i can't afford to be aggressive if they're gonna thinking about killing themselves then again i can't afford to be aggressive you know and certainly not until i've built a relationship with them once i've built a relationship with them then i can afford to be a little bit more forceful but at the very beginning compassionate and kind have you ever had a negotiation that went terribly bad uh not terribly bad i've had something i've got to taken off because I wasn't very good yeah what have you learned from that and what did you do wrong there well I was I treated someone exactly the same and I got smart and I shouldn't have been smart and that was the ridiculous thing about it so I'd gone on there'd been one where a young woman had got herself on a bridge somewhere in London and I got called as the hostage negotiator was crisis negotiator and as I approached I spoke to the PC there and I said what's going on she She said she's broken up with her boyfriend and she's got a really bad stomach ache. She's complaining about a stomach ache. I said, oh, okay. I said, have you got any paracetamol? She said, yeah, I've got some pre-op. So I went onto the bridge and I said, I understand there's been a real issue here, but I understand you've also got a stomach ache and I've got some paracetamol. Do you want them? She said, yes, please. I said, good, over here. And she came off. One minute, I was an expert. Same week, the same week, I did one somewhere in West London and within two minutes, because I'd approached it completely wrong because I thought I was clever because I approached it that way the person and I won't use the language but you can imagine what it was is what part of off do you not understand and within two minutes I had to come off that negotiation and the reason it was all my fault all my fault because I never treated that person as a person I had this thing this is the way to do it and there's never a way to do it when you're dealing with people because people are different and you've got to get to know that person before you can think about that and why did you come off the negotiation couldn't you have recovered by just changing the strategy and listening to the person better it's already gone the trust had gone the trust is gone yeah the trust had gone at that point and we were very keen very quick to move negotiators if it's not working it's not working you know you've got someone in crisis you can't say well i'm going to keep going if they say something like i'm not going to speak to a woman then you put a man in if they say i want to speak to a woman you put a woman in there's no there's no ego in that you know and there's no and sometimes you just don't get on with somebody and and if you don't get on with them you can't negotiate with him really one of the interesting things in the commercial world is if it's a salesperson i found this if a salesperson thinks there's like say 10 000 pound commission and but they're not getting on very well with a person they won't give it to someone else because they'll lose the commission so they'll struggle on with this relationship which is a bad relationship it's not working whatever reason the trust has gone which case change and then you bring in someone else and you say look you know i don't know what happened on the last occasion or who you've been speaking to and but i understand it's gone not gone very well well i'm here now and well i just don't trust them well look okay i'm here now and you can trust me and that's it you know you just bring in someone new we were never never trapped in so much as i must do the negotiation interesting so as a business owner i'm going to give you an example so within my within my company we sell several different events yeah um within the hospitality industry right so we have the business to consumer the regular dining and then the business to business which we're selling large events some of these events can go for like 50 or 60 000 pounds for an evening so they're quite let's say expensive and therefore obviously the client is expecting you know a certain standard or they have their own expectations and if you have a salesperson selling that event your suggestion is if that person for whatever reason is not it's not gelling with the client rather than preserving that person and trying for that person to recoup the relationship you just swap the person absolutely absolutely and it's not nothing to do with a person just we just don't get on you don't get on you don't get on that happens you know interesting i think it's a kind of um there's this whole thing around you've got to keep forcing it and it's like stop stop stop the first impression is really important but it's about trust and likability it's not about how you look it's about getting that person to like you and trust you and if we are the ones negotiating right and let's say it's in individual cases right so we don't have a whole team to change the person how can we tell if the other person that we're trying to negotiate with likes us or doesn't like us oh it's easy and you know as well as i do you can i mean i've walked up to people and i don't like them immediately and There's nothing I can do about it. It's almost like I just don't like them. But how can we tell from the other person? Well, I think there's just, I mean, how can you explain that? How many times have you met people you don't like? Yeah. What makes you don't like them? Sometimes it's very hard to explain. It's not that. Yeah, exactly. It's abstract. There are things, your gut feeling is, I don't like this person. I came, I went to a negotiation and I should never have gone. I should never have gone. I didn't want to go. Should never have gone and got forced to go, get there. and I walk around the corner and this person is like calling me names, shouting at me he got a noose around his neck And I thought I really don need this I really don need this And my attitude was all wrong and after about 20 minutes I said you gonna have to take me off I mean I was quite honest about it and he took me off the person took me off my colleague took me off within an hour we had to take him off and I went back on and I'd recovered it by then because I'd recovered my own composure in a way but it was it you've got to be prepared to say this isn't working and if you're business this is the trouble with sales people talk about sales team there's no such thing as a or there are sales teams if you all get commission at the end of the day and that commission is shared out amongst you then it's a sales team but if you're getting individual commission no you're a sole sole trader and what about at home so i suppose sometimes we negotiate with our romantic partners yeah you cannot just change the person right so so if you feel like the negotiation is not going on the right direction what should we do in that moment My always, what a shocking question. Okay, the thing I always say, I always take responsibility. So if I make a mistake in a negotiation, I say, look, you know, it's obviously I've done something wrong here to upset you and I really didn't mean to upset you. So what have I done wrong? So rather than start from you're wrong, I start from the fact that I'm wrong. And that will lower the defences on both sides, I think. It's just like, well, you should do it. So it seems to me that when you said that, you know, when I did that it really upset you and I'm really sorry I've upset you an apology is really good yeah that sounds very useful let's talk about listening the way you looked down there like yeah that sounds very useful I'm not going to use it no no no I was thinking I was thinking I would have to probably use that multiple times with my partner at home so I was just like practicing how to do it at home let's talk about listening so from everything you've just shared it seems to me that active listening it is probably the most important skill when it comes to negotiation and negotiating in general because you need to learn what the other person likes and wants and then how you can serve you know those needs better yeah again in very simple terms so i can understand it what is active listening okay active listening how can i explain it the problem is and this is this is the issue that i face all the time if i ask someone to teach me to listen they inevitably can't that what they would do is they'll come out with what they call the active listening skills which are eye contact eye contact is nothing to do with listening it's looking okay they'll come out with body language body language is nothing to do with listening it's looking asking questions is nothing to do with listening it's talking summarizing back what people tell you is talking so where is the listening and then they say something like oh two ears one mouth what does that mean it's just nonsense you have to know what you're listening for so first and foremost you have to understand what am i listening for what's my outcome that's the first thing so uh when you're talking to your partner and you're having a real good old argument or whatever it is okay what's your outcome what do you want to do what do you want to achieve do you want to have a better relationship or do you just want to be telling her what you think no you know that's that's the question so get your outcome in mind i've got my outcome in mind now what am i going to listen for there's six things you can listen for facts they're pretty simple you're going into a business so what is it you're looking for and why is it so important to you if you want a really good opening question that's the opening question what is it you're looking for and why is it so important to you why because what is it you're looking for will give you the facts why is it so important to you will give you the person and once you get that person then you can start to put together we work off a model listen interpret you have to interpret people say you can go in with an open mind no you can't there's no such thing as an open mind you know you already got all your values and beliefs sitting there waiting for you there's no such thing as an open mind so you go in there you listen really carefully so you're picking up the facts what the facts what are they telling me what are you actually describing to me what are you giving to me right now i need to know why do you want that so there's your motivators what's your motivators and they'll tell you they'll give you this stuff and then you're listening for um so you get facts motivate emotions how they're feeling about it so you get emotions and you listen to the tone of voice because you need emotions but now what you really want are the values and beliefs because i can't impose my values on you but i can impose your values on you and once i understand your values i can beat you and then i don't even mean beat you that's probably the wrong word but i know how to persuade you because i know what you believe in and then the last one is benefits every time you ask me a question you give away a secret because you tell me what's important to you how am i giving away my values when i ask you a question or maybe let me let's let's reverse the situation so if we're negotiating and we're in a romantic relationship you and i that force important piece of data so how are you getting it from me how will you understand my values oh really and just give me an opinion on anything what do you think of well i won't ask you the obvious one but give me an opinion on anything and every time you talk give me that opinion you're talking about yourself okay um i really did not enjoy the last probably eight weeks of um the weather in in particularly in london it's been raining non-stop and i think it's been one of the rainiest seasons within the last i don't know 50 or 60 years yeah so i get the sense that you really like the warm weather yeah and that you'd rather be in a place where you have a a nice Mediterranean diet, Mediterranean climate. But that's not values. It's just an opinion, but that's really a fact if you want to talk to it. I don't like the weather. There's a fact. If I said to you, okay, let me give you an example. Tell me what you think of immigration in Italy. Immigration in Italy? Yeah. That's a challenging one. Yeah, yeah. I definitely believe it's a decisive and multilaterally topic. Okay, you don't have to answer it. You can start to see. I was going to give a very political answer. Yeah, and as you start to, but as you start, if you're just talking to somebody and they start to give you that answer, it's a bit like saying, what do you think of the politics of the world today? What do you think about President Trump putting 10% tariffs on everybody? And as soon as someone starts to talk in that way, they tell you what their values are. And it's really simple. Anytime you give an opinion on anything. And then once you know those values, what should you do with those values? what you want to do depends what you're trying to achieve i mean it's again comes back to your outcome what are you trying to achieve so let's imagine that someone says it's fairness i love my children but they didn't love me um okay so you know already that they love their children all right so you're thinking like okay um if you've got a person in crisis you're a person in crisis and they tell you they love their children then the impact of what they're going to do on their children can be enormous in which case then you throw that back on them you use it to your advantage so look you know you say that you love your children and i'm sure you really do love your children have you thought about what this is going to mean to them if you're going to do what you're going to do now because there's nothing to do with me this is about what you feel if you're a family man i'll push family man down your throat you listen you interpret as you interpret you then have to get clarity the big mistake they make they don't get clarity this is the this is the nonsense about body language body language is okay gives you a clue that's all it does you can't read anything from body language really yeah body language is a waste of time almost really wow well you see the thing about body language is this someone goes like you say oh they're angry all right so he's obviously angry about that question so and you make all these assumptions it's nice i'll get the impression you're angry i'll get the impression that something i just said that upset you you can say anything like that but go language is the only thing you're going to find out what body language you're not in your head you're smiling i get the impression you really enjoyed this interview i could be wrong but that's the impression you get but I've got no idea I'm making it up I'm making this assumption and where people make that assumption the mistake is to believe that assumption what you've got to do is to get clarity and you get clarity by asking them but you don't ask them, you tell them I think a lot of people, going back to listening I think a lot of people think that they are great listeners but maybe they're not so how can we know if we're good listeners you teach me how to listen I teach you how to listen just stay quiet and listen to understand and not to respond staying quiet is saying how do i do that then how do i understand how do you understand maybe when you're quiet you're asking like you keep a curious mindset in your in your brain in your head and you're asking yourself questions about whatever the other person is telling you so you're like sort of preparing the next answer not preparing the next answer but like unpacking your your answer so i can understand it right so if you said i i I don't know. I really enjoy the hot weather. And then I would ask myself inside my head, oh, he really enjoys the hot weather. And why the hot weather? So it's almost like I really want to understand even deeper your answer. So what will you do? You ask me a question? Yeah. Yeah. So as soon as you ask a question, you change the subject. Huh. It's all about what you want to know. Let me do it with me. So what should we do? You should just let me talk. Okay. And that's it. And we listen. and then and when nobody no you see i've already told you how to listen i've just told you i've taught i've taught you how to listen and you didn't hear it i just let you talk what did i say to listen for those five different uh pieces of data there were six six there were six all right let's go let's go through them again so facts yeah emotions yeah beliefs and values right beliefs that's five yeah um then we had benefits benefits and motivators motivators right so that's pretty listen for okay so i ask a question and then i'm looking for those you can get anything you can ask a question yeah well what is it so what is it you're looking for and why is it so important to you there is the question right so there's the question so what is it you're looking for facts i want to go a big event i want to have it with my family i want to have 55 000 people it's really important to me because i'm i really want them to kind of get a sense of how much i love them um and uh you know and i'm and i want to do it on that day because it's my birthday and it's an important birthday for me and so they've and in that one line you've got family man there's his values and his beliefs he wants this all about his family you know these motivators because it's a 60th so therefore it's important you've got a sense of urgency you know that these are the facts this is what he wants to do so all of that has come out in that one very quick moment and if you're listening properly you got it now you come back to him and when you put your proposal you say look we're going to make this great for your family the whole point about this is going to be fabulous for your family they're going to have such a great time and we're going to put up all the stuff about your birthday so they understand what it's about um they're going to be lots of people in so once you've got all those facts and then you push it back to them in the same way that they're giving it to you so it resonates with them the problem with you selling an event or not you selling an event but someone selling the event is we can do this for you we can do this for you we can do this for you we can do who cares i don't want any of that you haven't asked me what i want ask me what i want and then shut up if you get a statement taken by a police officer they should and this i'm not always saying they do they should say to you like just tell me the story tell me what happened don't worry about it don't edit anything don't do anything just tell me the story right so and this is what shouldn't happen but does happen on occasions right your staff is saying well it was about two o'clock in the morning i was walking down the road bang in comes the first question where the lights on why did you ask that question because you want to know so well yeah the lights may have been on yeah that's right yeah yeah yeah so go on come on with your story well and now the story's gone because now what i'm doing is i'm looking to see if you want information so the next i'll say to you is yeah there was a man who's on the opposite side of the road describe him don't describe him why am i describing him why do you need to get that description then you don't need a description in what you need is the story once you've got the story then you can go back and say you know you mentioned that man earlier can you describe it for me but i've got the story i'm working with the big picture right now in that big picture there are six or seven things maybe 20 things that you want to know more about right pick them out boom boom boom boom but let them tell the story let them flow because in that you'll get everything and then pitch back same in same in business what is it you're looking for why is it so important you simple question for the person right now listening to this at home that definitely wants to be a better listener and you're going to be the listening teacher to this person, what would you give them as homework for this week so they can become better listeners? Oh, just get people talking. We do that all the time. We say, supermarket cashiers, what's their job? It's boring, yeah? Bored, bored, bored. That's their job, right? So next time you see a supermarket cashier, have you been working hard then? Quick question. Oh, you wouldn't believe it. It seems to me that she's a really boring job. oh boring no it's not too bad off they go just any single whatever you i do some terrible not terrible things i love i do have you heard of a billy no mate meal no do you know billy no mate meal is what sales people do so they go to a hotel and they're in the hotel and they're um sat there and they're and they go for their steak and chips or whatever they go downstairs they sit at the table on their own and they're billy no mates they've got no friends yeah so billy no mate yep and i always say i never have a billy no mate meal because if i came to this restaurant and i was on my own i'd see two people sat at a table and i would go and sit at the table next to them and i'd listen to their conversation i like that yeah yeah and i'm not going to involve myself in the conversation i'm just going to listen to the conversation and then it's kind of like let them have a chat and then but you can do it on trains i always speak to people on trains yeah there's rules of conversation the first rule is once started you're obliged to continue so it's very difficult for you to stop talking to me if i want to talk to you it's really hard it's really hard and i say to people how do you get rid of a boring person at a party and most of them can't they say i'll go to the toilet so i'll wait for you and it's like i'll go i want to go should we go talk to one of my friends i'd rather talk to you and it's because they don't want to be rude and and of course then what happens is like i say to him you need to be dutch say why why why dutch because the dutch people say go away you're boring me and some dutch people are very direct and it's not always obviously not all dutch people but you get the idea but we are so and if you understand the british people british people are terrible about embarrassment they don't want to be embarrassed and so they won't ask for they won't they won't negotiate with major companies because they might say no and they look foolish just ask it's really interesting honestly when you start to see different cultures when you're talking to a brit remember they're very diplomatic if you're talking to a dutch person they're very frank very direct if you ask a dutch person do you want a drink they say no we find that very rude okay do we know if you ask a british person do you want a drink they say maybe later which means no you get the idea what do you think is the biggest barrier to good listening oh most of the time um curiosity you want to ask good questions i think that's that's always the biggest thing and also you think you know the answer so i think that's the big problem but i want to kind of get away from the fact that you've got to be listening all the time i mean at this level i'll ask you a question the analogy i use is driving a car okay do you drive your car do you aim it i drive it no you aim it i aim it okay yeah well think about it do you think about driving or you just get in and drive yeah it's automatic yeah it's automatic therefore you're aiming the goal yeah that's what communication is and most of the time when we're talking to people if you're in a pub or something like that drink then it's just aimed right if you're going into a job interview you're suddenly driving it aren't you you're driving the communication that's that's a different different way of thinking the trouble is is that because you've not practiced driving you soon fall into the trap of aiming and the difference between a hostage negotiator working in a hostage situation and a hostage negotiator in a pub is in a pub they're aiming their communication and in a hostage negotiation you're driving it so when you're going into an important meeting if you're the salesperson you're going to go and sell to your events then you drive your communication which means you got to think about it and that takes you from the subconscious as competent to the consciously excellent And it a huge leap It the difference between you driving your car and Lewis Hamilton driving his Formula One racing car Because Lewis Hamilton doesn't stop thinking about driving. Adam Peaty, I think it is, who's the swimmer, he said, I can make you a faster swimmer in one lesson. And they said, how do you do that? He said, think about swimming. because when you go swimming just you're kind of just splashing along you know and enjoying yourself think about swimming so it's about being intentional with what you do absolutely absolutely concentrating on what you're doing and the level of concentration in a crisis situation is is massive yeah it's exhausting because you've got to listen all the time you're picking up on stuff they come back at you they'll change their mind you know i'm coming off the bridge no i'm not coming off the bridge what will the neighbours think i don't know what the neighbours will think you know i mean but that's important to them no i can't fail at this as well okay there's another throwaway line i can't be seen to fail at this as well all right so i get the impression that in the past you've feel like you've let yourself down or you've let people down that's all that's told you that's that one comment will give you that and then you suddenly start thinking well okay what am i going to do with this and you say the biggest failure would be if you kill yourself the brain thing to do is to come off it doesn't always work I mean I'm going to go a bit off topic with this question but I also feel like it's in a way related you definitely have been exposed to a lot of suicidal or events or attempts have you found a common denominator on why people want to commit suicide no I think that's the people say to us Well, if they really wanted to kill themselves, they'd have jumped. And I've never lost one in this country. But there are certainly friends of mine have. And they've been talking to these people for 12 hours. And then they've apologized and jumped. You know, so you don't know why they're there. And you don't know how... You might get someone say something like, Oh, I've lost £5,000. I'm penniless. I'm going to have to kill myself. And you hear someone say, Oh, it's only £5,000. well not to them it's not to them it's life you know to them it's everything so you can't say this is the reason you know you you can't every single person is different and it's really difficult at times you kind of you're really struggling to find an answer or a solution and you just keep talking for as long as you can in the hope it comes up have you lost someone in another country No, we had, there wasn't anyone in particular. I mean, there was a couple of people that got killed in Iraq. They were taken hostage in Iraq. And you don't lose them. It's just that, you know, to some extent, it was never going to come out. But you always feel like, could we have done better? Could we have done better? You know, what didn't we do? Could you have done better? No, I don't think so. No, no. I think it wasn't just me. I wasn't negotiating. I was part of the negotiation team, but it wasn't... Al-Zakawi, I mean, he was so fundamental, on a level of fundamental, he was at the highest level. And his idea was to kill these people as a political gesture. Well, yeah, he's struggling there, really. No matter what you say. Did that impact you? Did it impact us? Yeah, not particularly. you have to kind of of course it impacts you because it makes you think you know the next time what's not in so much as it gets you to the point where you think oh my gosh you know i didn't but to the point of thinking right how can i have done that better you know you're constantly looking to do things better one of the big things in business again which is what i think there's a huge mistake is people don't review success i think we were so we had about 155 suicide interventions a year in london on on average and you know along the way one might kill himself it might be we lose one so we didn't always lose any but you know maybe some what about about one a year sort of thing if you use that as an average and it's probably not a good average to use but and but we reviewed 155 and we looked at best practice and if something is instinctive if you do something really well instinctively then the next time you use it you should use it is best practice and it's having that ability to review success because i think most people review what's gone wrong they don't review what's gone right and if i said to you not necessarily to you but to one of your sales people what's the best question you can ask what's the best opening question you can ask somebody when you ask them about the event what will be their best opening question and most of them won't be able to answer it but they should be able to answer that question because that question should be the one they use every time and then they might want to tweak it a bit the SAS our special air services so one of their pillars is the constant pursuit of excellence now if you're going to come excellent you start off as bad you become mediocre you go to average you go from average to good go from good to very good you go from very good to excellent if you're starting looking at bad you ain't going to go to excellent what you've got to look at is very good and then you go to excellent but then you don't ever get to excellent because it's the constant pursuit of excellence which means even if you're really really really good you're still looking to improve and that's why they're so good because they're constantly looking to improve on success and the same with yourself in a restaurant if you've got a you know you've got a particular meal that's working and it works really well and you may well keep it on but you may want to tweak it a little bit every now and then just change it a touch just to go and give people someone you know after people have eaten it five times they think i've eaten that five times you now want to change it a little bit you change the menu you've changed but you're always looking to improve it and i think that's where we should always be i mean especially with communication before we started recording you talked to me briefly about your work overseas and i found it fascinating can you talk to me about it the work overseas i did um one big one was the one in afghanistan and that was interesting there was three um workers taken and i'm not gonna you know take any credit it was a team the whole thing is a team but it's fascinating to kind of to understand the culture you need to understand the culture to begin with and that's the the general culture the generic culture of the country and then of course you got to listen to the people you know and it was we had very little time to talk to them i mean in the period of a month i think we spoke to them for an hour in total you know they chose when they spoke to us they're well aware they're very clever the afghan you know um soldiers fighters whatever you want to call them are very smart they've been fighting for years they beat the russians you know these are no idiots and so they were very very capable but uh you know but it was a question when we got talking to them be as natural as you can that's that's the reality of it you know and they say okay they made one comment which was we retreat we retreat they're our guests i said well if they're your guests why can't they leave you know there's lots of stuff like that which you're picking up as you go along but again fascinating culture fascinating i mean they're really nice people huge thing on reciprocity where you got if they knock on your door if you knock on their door they'll feed you for three days if they knock on your door you feed them for three days and because there's not much that that kind of way of living is still very much in existence there you know yeah different cultures really interesting to work with and and and that's always fascinates me because when you go there you know you're thinking i've got no idea how this works they have their own way of working so if i so we we talk about the rules of conversation and we talk about italians and it's it's done in a very nice way i mean but but you watch this is great this you watch a brit miss the tube in the half past seven in the morning and they'll pretend they weren't running for it they come hurtling down the stairs the doors will close and then when they look around and they wander off in the hope that no one's seen them that's that's what brits do you watch an italian miss the tube in the morning and they shout at the tube and they and it's very different and and the rules of conversation is my turn your turn my turn your turn and italians all talk at the same time i'm not saying they always do but you get the idea when you watch them it's like how do you understand this conversation because he's going all over the place but they understand it that's their culture i always say to someone if you're going to a country find someone from that country and say to them what are the five dumbest things i can do and then don't do them as simple as that right but that's the best i can do for you really let's talk about lying because i can i would assume that a big part of your job is being able to tell if someone is lying to you i don't have to i mean that's that's the interesting the big part i think as a police officer i had this conversation with someone recently and i said i never looked for a confession wasn't i wasn't interested i wanted your story you give me a story and i'll commit you to your story if you're telling the truth that's great if you're telling a lie i'll commit you to it so that when we go to court you tell the court why you told me lies because i'll disprove your lie but how can you tell if they're lying oh you can't what do you mean if they look you in the eye and all that for example how can you tell if i lie i wouldn't i wouldn't care i'll just get you to tell i'll commit you to your story and at the end of it i'll say is everything you just told me the truth and if you say yes i've got you it's a you can tell okay if people are lying they'll look you in the eye they don't look away okay that's another load of nonsense and you will teach if you've got children you'll teach your children to be competent liars by the age of eight because you do this you say come here this is the first time look at me and i say stop fidgeting and they stop fidgeting did you do it And the first time they say, yes, I'm really sorry. Okay, the next time you say, come here, they know exactly what to do. And they'll come and they'll look you in the eye and they'll stop fidgeting. Did you do it? No. You teach them. Body language is taught. Honestly, it's deceitful. Body language is deceitful. But a good liar, you never tell a good liar. A good liar will always build his whole story around 97% of the truth. a really good top fraudsman will have everything worked out but in the end the only thing you do is so if you said to me you went you was eating in this restaurant last night and let's say you weren't eating it yeah but you was eating this restaurant i say okay uh what did you have to eat that'd be the first thing because there's a chance it may not be on the menu for whatever reason it may be that this off yeah okay how much did you pay for it because you know how much you pay for it i say what did you drink how much did you pay for the wine um where did you sit what music was playing i can ask you loads of questions to commit you to that story if you're telling the truth you better say all of those answers you're i don't know how to watch about 30 quid i don't know you know somewhere around that figure they know the answers that what did you eat i ate prawns and that'll be on the menu all of that bit who served you what do they look like all of that stuff i will commit you to that story and then i say is everything you told me the truth yeah good now I'll go and check it's almost like an inquisition it's almost like an inquisition right to catch the lie yeah but it's not an inquisition it's done in a nice way I didn't make the story up you made the story up not me so I'm not forcing you all I'm saying to you is like are you telling me the truth that's all I'm asking you if you're telling me the truth no problem at all because I was just thinking like if someone at home has some doubts about their their partner being faithful and then they would ask all these questions like where were you last night who served you what did you eat yeah but that's but the interesting thing is you know you'd say oh so what did you have to eat i mean you mate yeah you can do it quite casually okay you don't have to so you're asking for details to understand the detail the devil's in the detail every time the devil's in the detail yeah and if we want to reverse the situation if we want to be the ones that are i wouldn't say lying but let's say persuasive how can we be more persuasive oh i see you mean like well the model is okay the first model is there's two models that you want to work off the first one is trust and likability first impression second one the investigation in find out as much as you can about that person third one is put forward your proposal in a way that resonates with that person fourth one is then negotiation but remember the negotiation doesn't start there it starts there this is why they have procurement teams procurement teams do not want to build a relationship with you because the moment they build a relationship with you they might like you we had a solicitor that refused to talk to the police major solicitor dealing with really serious crimes refused to talk to the police and someone asked her why don't you talk to the police she said i might get to like them and i can't do my job properly and that's what procurement do that's why they're boarding right at the very end because they don't want to like you you know they're not there to like you they're there to get a deal if i've done this work if i've done my work properly and i've done the first impressions right got you to trust and like me i've then done the investigation right found that all about you i've then pitched it properly we come to negotiation it's like how are we going to sort this out and and you like me and i like you so let's get it sorted but if he goes one two three procurement the chain's broken and that's why they use procurement so the thing to do is always build trust and you build trust by understanding and I can show you how to get understanding let's apply everything you've just shared with me in real life situations so how can we use negotiation skills at work at work? oh the negotiation skills forget negotiation skills start think about listening if you the you can use negotiation skills at any any time it's just persuasion with a compromise remember that okay but you're persuading them because you know them you've got to understand them you listen you understand you sorry you listen you interpret having interpreted it you then get clarity having got clarity you get understanding having got understanding you get trust having got trust they give you permission to persuade that's how it works but you have to listen to begin with you have to understand this person but the problem is you listen and then you make an interview i think it's this you now got to get clarity and you get clarity by saying it seems to me that what you're worried about is by saying it seems to me that what you're worried about is you'll get clarity because if you're right they go yeah exactly and then you show understanding which gets trust if you're wrong and say it's not that at all it's this and then you get understanding which enables you to get trust and having got trust you get persuaded that's how it works and does that framework framework work in in different aspects of life so in romantic relationships or in parenting it's like the same thing if you remember you got to think about is why are you doing it as long as you've got some sort of context what's the context of why you're doing it if it's yeah you'd say um i'm trying to think of a situation someone comes in they're obviously upset about something right you say oh bloody yeah, love, seems to me something's upset you today rather than what's up with you. You'll see the difference in it. It's a kind of like a, it's a much more, it's a nicer approach. And then you let them talk. It's like you're giving them permission. Yeah, tell me what it is, yeah. And as you go through it, instead of asking questions about it, so, you know, they say like, oh, he's picking on me again, you know. And then the question obviously is why was he picking on you? but rather than say that it seems to me like you've upset me about it in some way, have you? and it's a different way of saying the question it's a suggestion rather than a question suggest, don't ask We've spoke about negotiation listening, lying to an extent manipulation, persuasion is there anything else that you think we should talk about that is in relation to your professional experience I would find interesting that our audience would find interesting Difficult question to answer anything else that might your audience might find interesting. We were talking earlier about scorpions. So when I was in the police, I went out and trained the scorpions in South Africa and I found that a remarkable place in so much as the differences between the groups of people the different classes was enormous And I struggled with that quite a lot I think And I think no one is born a terrorist. You have to remember that. Nobody is born a terrorist. So something's happened in their life. No one acts in that way. They act in that way because in the past, that sort of action and that sort of behaviour has got them where they're wanted. so if you're dealing with difficult people you know they're difficult because that's what's always got them where they are and you can look in the world at the moment see what's happening in the world doesn't take any fool to realize you know that people are playing the game at the moment there's an awful lot of negotiations going on at the moment most of them are transactional if you look at trump he's a transactional he has to win has to win and he's in an enormously powerful position we can't no one can fight him really you know there's there's there's it's a very difficult situation the big problem with that and which i think will come out and it's coming out more and more is that no one trusts america and so you're seeing now a group of um countries coming together like europe's coming together china japan not japan china uh north korea and and Russia are coming together and you're getting these forming of major groups. But the thing is, is that, you know, in the end, Trump is, America's that powerful. And then you're going to, I don't know, it's interesting to see, interesting to watch. There's so much going on in the news when you watch it. There was an interesting thing about Israel and they said at the very beginning of the Israeli conflict that Hamas was divided into separate groups. This is what I want people to start listening for because this is what makes it really interesting. Instead of kind of thinking these are bad, these are bad, I don't believe in any of that. I think that, right, okay, what's going on? But they said that Hamas was divided into a number of different groups. Now, some of those groups will be very fundamental. Some of them will be much more kind of like want to do the compromise. But they're being negotiated by different negotiators, and these can't do anything because these are so fundamental, etc. So it's a much more difficult negotiation. That must be an enormous, you know, I can't believe how difficult that negotiation must have been. Is there a right timing for negotiations in terms of length? Should negotiations last, for example, I don't know, in a romantic relationship this long, at a country level that long, or everything is independent? No, everything is independent. It depends on the people, yeah. I think FARC in Colombia or wherever they were, they took their people into the jungle and kept them there for six months, and no one knew whether they were alive or dead. Then at the end of six months, they suddenly reappear. So it's kind of like, all I can say really is people are so different. You're dealing with every single person as an individual and that's it really. And the other thing is, I suppose my point about listening is listening is about you. It's to your advantage. It's not to their advantage. The reason why I'm asking that is because when I negotiated in different environments, I've always felt that there was a momentum that needed to be kept. And that momentum, that timing was different depending on what I was negotiating. So if I'm negotiating with a potential investor that wants to acquire the specific valuation shares of my company, or if I'm negotiating with my partner at home on where we're going to go on holidays, it's like I didn't want to lose momentum. But I couldn't sort of pinpoint when in terms of length that momentum would be. it just felt like I'm losing momentum, so I need to answer now or we need to bring it so close. That's just natural. I think that's absolutely natural, yeah. And are you negotiating with your partner or are you persuaded? No, I don't want to persuade. I want to listen to understand because otherwise I would, in my personal opinion, if I'm persuading, it's a very short-term approach, right? So I don't want to be with someone that would effectively do what I want, but I would want to be with someone that makes me also be a better person and I can only be a better person by listening and I'm always happy to be wrong. But I'm also happy to share my thoughts and for her maybe to accept them and then be wrong. So it's a bit of both. Be careful. The wrong bit is I'm always willing to accept them and change my mind, I think is a nicer way of putting it than being wrong. You're never wrong. I think that's a key to that. Okay. I think, but you're right. I think it's, but there is a difference. And this is where the negotiation kind of gets into this. Okay, let's imagine that you like skiing. I like scuba diving. I don't like scuba diving. but let's imagine I do. So you like skiing, I like scuba diving. And I want to go scuba diving and you want to go skiing. Right, where's the compromise? And are you going to persuade them or are you going to negotiate with them? I'm going to negotiate with them. So how would you negotiate that? By both of us compromising something. So maybe we go first scuba diving and then another time we go skiing or something like that. Okay, so you give an option. Yeah. So again, okay, it's like a compromise, I suppose, in that way. I was thinking of exactly the same thing, and if I say, okay, look, on this occasion, can we go skiing? But now I get what I want. And of course, when I go scuba diving in two years' time, I can easily get around that as well. It's a sneaky way around it. But I get the, yeah, I think that's it. But it's like you've got to think, you can't just say, well, we're going skiing. You know, that's it. But persuasion, it's just persuasion. Why should we, well, why should we go skiing first? Oh, well, it's the winter, you know. You're going to have to come up with that. That's your persuasion. Is that wrong? No. No, it's life. It's all life. What's the difference in between persuasion and manipulation? Mindset. Like the end goal, the intent? Yeah, the mindset, your intent. Yeah, your intent is evil. If you want to put it like that, it's not really, there's not much difference, if I'm honest. Okay, imagine this is shocking. Again, I'll use really bad examples. But you've got a 14-year-old son. How would you get him to go to university? Because you want him to go to university. That's manipulation. How would you get him to go? I would show him the negative consequences of not going to university. the potential negative consequences of not going to university. And you think at 14 he's going to listen to that? I would show him. Why don't you just talk about sex, drugs and rock and roll? In university? Yeah. Because then I don't want him to do that at university also. But he's 14 years old. If you want to get him interested, get him interested. I'm not saying he should do any of this. This is very much like my own opinion. I'm sure people will be shouting down the end of the phone. At 18 I'm going to say, I told you a full team is a complete lie, now go and do some work. But you want to get to university. What's your outcome getting to university? And that's the thing, that's the key. And that's manipulation. That's manipulation. That's manipulation, yeah. But manipulation then in terms of, or in the spectrum of parenting, is accepted? Well, I don't know, it's acceptable. What you're trying to do is to put like an old head on young shoulders, and that's very difficult. but what we're forgetting is that at 14 what were you like at 14 what was I like at 14 I know I was like at 14 I didn't want to do school work that was the most boring thing I could do I want to do play football chase girls etc etc all of those things that 14 year olds want to do and then you know your dad comes along and says look you got to do some work because otherwise you won't get a job yeah 14 I don't care you know I mean maybe when I'm 18 I'll care but at 14 I don't care and that's that is our problem and then it's that's why it's so difficult to deal with teenagers because they're going through this huge change of life and also they're interested in all the other things that you don't want to be interesting yet and you're trying to do the best for them that's why when people come to me and say what would you advise parents i've got no idea outrageous in every single relationship and every single child there are six parents and that's what people forget is that your parents have had an impact on you and you're going to use all the stuff that you liked and all the stuff you don't like you're not going to use it may be really good stuff but you didn't like it you go your wife's parents and they all the stuff they and then there's the two of you so there's six parents on that one child so so when so when a parent tells their kid if you finish your homework in time you're going to eat pudding tonight you're going to eat dessert is that manipulation yeah but that's fine it's bribery it's bribery yeah okay and and if the child believes it i'm going to say i don't want to put in then Now what are you going to do? Find another reward. Yeah. Find another reward. Yeah. Oh, then that's easy. Then you set yourself up and give them rewards for everything, haven't you, really? I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to say for one second. You know, when I listen to people say, if you're going to be a parent, you know, you should hold your breath for 35 seconds. Oh, come on. You know what I mean? If you're in the middle of a row with your kids, you're not going to be holding your breath for 35 seconds. You know, count the three before you say something. Maybe it works. I don't know. I don't know what works. Whatever works for people works for people. but as a parent if there was a book on parenting that everyone could accept and it worked there'd be one book there are thousands of books on parenting so no one knows that's all right you know if you can listen to your kids really listen to your kids and really kind of get inside them and find out well you know you'll know body language if your kids come in and are upset they'll be upset and you'll see it because you know them really well have to see it you know you don't have to learn anything about that you just know it it's pretty obviously upset about something now you've got to find out what you know it's and i've we make this so hard that's the problem everything becomes so hard everything comes so you know you should do this you should do that you should do that what no stop stop you know we you know we're here i've had very strict parents and how would you approach a promotion negotiation with with your boss if you want to get a promotion how would you approach it yeah easy um why should i give you their money why should they give me their money why should i give you the money you want to get you want more money you want promotion why should i give it to you what have you done because i've been delivering results over the past i don't know quarter or year okay good stuff yeah and i'm going to stay here long term and you can rely on me and i'm happy to take on more responsibilities so show me when did you take on more responsibilities i'm happy to take on further responsibilities when did you take it on your own in your own initiative so you need to give data you need if you're gonna if i'm gonna pay you more money you're going to be doing more work either more work or better work or work that's above your station you can't walk in and say i've been here five years yeah who cares but so you do good work i'm glad that's so you should what is it why should i promote you for that so you're requesting that but you're you're you're promising them something in return so they're more more quality work through specific examples right so you need to give them data you you gave me this stuff and that was obviously for someone else i've stepped in for this i've been asking these people to do this i've been doing this i've been doing this i've been doing this i'm now working at a much higher level than i'm getting paid for that's why you should give me more money that's a fairly you know that's a good way to put it yeah i've gone out and i found clients i'll do this i'll do that i'm now really good at finding if i'm going to promote me then you're going to promote me into position of management which takes me away and i might say to you you're the best salesman i got why am i going to promote you why would i promote you because if i'm not happy i will not be the best salesman you have anymore so you're telling me you're not going to be happy is that what you're tell me i'm not going to be happy if i stay in this position longer so you want to go to become a manager but you're the best southman what if i give you more money you well now we're talking you know it depends you get the idea you see you can start to see but i don't want to lose you as a salesperson because you're a brilliant salesperson i don't want to lose you do i need to find out what my boss wants before i start the conversation if you ever yeah if you're there's lots of ways so i always say one of the one of the questions you should ask on an interview I would ask you on an interview tell me about your best boss and why you like working for them because if you start to talk about your best boss you tell me how you like to work okay because I want to emulate that well you say that I really like it because they gave me the time to do this alright so you like time no I really like it because I can be innovative so you like to be innovative yeah okay I'm now listening to that and I'm thinking okay I can pick you into this this and this place if I just say to you tell us a little bit about yourself you're going to come out with the usual story that they'll come out you know I like to be a team player you know i play football yeah i'm gonna be sick that's just rubbish yeah but if i ask you that question and if i said to you who's the best um let's see what's the word i'm looking for best waiter you've ever worked with why were they so good the moment you start telling me about that waiter i become that waiter now you like me now you trust me now i come to you and say i'm really good i should be the head waiter you say you really are good why because i've just told you just told me how to behave oh that's so interesting so i guess we can also apply that approach in job interviews so if you're applying for a consulting job and you can say who's the best consultant that you have in your team and why and then you sort of like become that person during the interview yeah well if you can yeah certainly if you can get into that company yeah yeah yeah and the other thing is you say to your boss like who's the best consultant you've ever heard and why were they so good then i'll you say to a company you say who's the best you know um who's the best mortgage advice you got why were it so good they contacted me they kept me in touch they made it simple just write it down okay that's all i'm gonna do fascinating you see people give away lots of stuff this is this is the whole thing it comes back to listening absolutely ask the right questions and let them talk and let them talk and and the more you know the the more you're prepared to just let them go and think, well, okay, but then know what you're trying to achieve. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah, no, but that makes so much sense. And what you were saying earlier, it also resonates deeply because sometimes we just stop listening because either we're impatient to give our own answer because we're more concerned about how we're going to come across ourselves rather than listening to the other person or B, because we already know the answer of what you're saying, so I'm going to interrupt you. And then we stop listening, right? And that might be very, not only valuable information, but also like, you know, deal changing information, right? Yeah. And you never know what they were going to tell you. Yeah. That's the problem. If you stop the story, you'll never know what they were going to say. But if you let them tell the story, then you can pick that story apart. Absolutely. Yeah. Listening is the absolute business. If you get to listening. And other places you can listen. Taxi drivers are great. They talk all the time. Just let them talk. They can be bigoted, horrible, racist. It doesn't matter. you're not interested you're just working them out your whole job is to work that person out and then use that as practice you have to practice i practice an hour a day every day all right and i don't do it as an hour i do it five minutes here five minutes there but i will consciously turn my turn my listening ears on if you want to call that and think right okay what are you telling me and then most of the time i just ignore my daughter she'll hate me if she finds this she said to me once you know what men are like dad oh come here you tell me what men are like because that one throwaway comment you could easily say yeah i know what men are like love no don't do that yeah they're just giving you a real insight yeah sit down there tell me what men are like fascinating hey you're so right richard my final question to you is the following yeah if you had to compress all your knowledge into one essential piece of advice that we must implement in our daily lives what would it be um always remember the other person is right and that no matter what it is they they are right and then you've got to listen to them to find out why they're right or why they think they're right before you can start anything else don't label don't label people at all never say oh well did expect that from them don't do that you know people are different every single person you meet is different and and it's glorious it's wonderful to find the difference you know people i am never bored when i'm around people if you're a family man if you've got a family meal you could just throw in a bomb you know like so what do you think of so and so and just sit back and listen to the conversation you know it's going to cause all sorts of ructions it doesn't matter just sit out the conversation and work them out if you're at a meeting just sit and listen to the people ask listen to the questions they ask you'll work them out every time someone asks a question it's about them thank you so much for coming on the show it's been it's been an absolute pleasure i've learned a lot and i i'm i'm gonna immediately start implementing so many of the things that you've shared because i believe that they're so so implementable in so many walks of life right so many aspects of our life. So thank you for coming and sharing your over 28 years of experience in this field, which is fascinating. And yeah, thank you. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.